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KenWo's Corner- Hall of Fame Edition

3.....2.....1..... Happy New Year!  Ok, now that the ball has dropped on 2011, the first order of business is to look at the Hall of Fame Candidates and cast our Official South Side Sox Ballot.  There are some interesting cases up for debate here in 2011.  Rafael Palmeiro, Jeff Bagwell and Larry Walker are making their debuts.  Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, Bert Blyleven and Tim Raines are hoping this is the year they get called.  Here is my take on the candidates.

Roberto Alomar- (Padres, Blue Jays, Orioles, Indians, Mets, White Sox, Diamondbacks) (.300/.371/.443, 210 HR, 1,134 RBI, 2,724 H, 474 SB)  Its a shame I have to write a blurb about him this year.  He should have been in last year.  He was probably the best 2nd baseman I've ever saw in his prime.  Roberto fell off badly in 2002-2004 and unfortunately that time was spent in New York and Chicago so that may be the reason he isn't in.  

Carlos Baerga- (Indians, Mets, Padres, Red Sox, Diamondbacks, Nationals) (.291/.332/.423, 134 HR, 774 RBI, 1583 H)  Baerga was one of my favorite players in the early 90s.  From 1992-1995 he was very good.  He then fell off hard, like Alomar, when he went to the Mets for 2 1/2 seasons.  He had 137 ABs in 1999 and then disappeared until he resurfaced in 2002 with Boston.  He spent the next 4 years as a pinch hitter.  

Star-divide

Jeff Bagwell- (Astros) (.297/.408/.540, 449 HR, 1529 RBI, 2,314 H, 202 SB) Jeff Bagwell was born on the same day as Frank Thomas, and performed very similar to him, including a 1994 MVP award.  He was the Rookie of the Year in 1991 and continued to be great through 2003.  He was one of the most feared hitters in the league  for a long time.  He didn't reach any "magic" numbers though and was a part of the steroid era.  His numbers took a pretty sharp decline after testing started and people have questioned whether or not his numbers are real.  The last memory I have of him is also a positive one- Bobby Jenks mowing him down in Game 1 of the 2005 World Series.  It should be interesting to see how the voters respond to him.  He got the call on my ballot though.

Harold Baines- (White Sox, Rangers, A's, Orioles, Indians) (.289/.356/.465, 384 HR, 1,628 RBI, 2,866 H)  If Andre Dawson and Jim Rice are in the Hall of Fame, Harold Baines should be there too.  Unfortunately, Harold barely gets enough support to stay on the ballot.  The knocks against him are he was a DH the majority of his career and they use that against him.  Get over it jabronies, the DH has been around for 40 years.  The other argument is that he was very good for a long time, but never great.  Very few players in baseball history have been as good for as long as Harold was.  In 1999, as a 40 year old, Baines hit .312/.387/.533 with 25 HR and 103 RBI's in 430 at bats.  He has the most RBI's of any player that is not in the Hall and who has been on the ballot previously.  A lot of people believe that a player cannot be "clutch".  Those people never saw Harold Baines.  He has my vote.

Bert Blyleven- (Twins, Rangers, Pirates, Indians, Angels) (287-250, 3,701 K's, 3.31 ERA)  Blyleven pitched for some pretty bad teams over the course of his career, yet still managed 287 Wins.  He is also is 5th in all time strikeouts.  He is also near the top in complete games (242) and shutouts (60). He has all the numbers to be in the Hall, but has yet to get in.  This is because when people saw him pitch, he never screamed out Hall of Famer.  He will most likely receive the call come Jan. 5th, but I was never much of a fan of his.  Don't circle me Bert, because I didn't circle you either.  

Bret Boone- (Mariners, Reds, Braves, Padres, Twins) (.266/.325/.442, 252 HR, 1021 RBI, 1775 H) The first 9 seasons of Bret's career were nice years for a second baseman.  He was worth a spot on your fantasy teams from 1994-2000.  Then 2001 came and he was 3rd in the MVP voting with .331/.372/.578, 37 HR, 141 RBI's. 2002 and 2003 were more of the same for the all of a sudden superstar.  Then 2004 came and he fell off the map.  He's one of the poster boys for the steroid era in my opinion.  He wasn't a superstar, then at 32 he became great, then in 2004, when testing was starting he fell off the map.  Jose Canseco pointed at him in his book and I believe Canseco.  No chance for Boone.

Kevin Brown- (Rangers, Orioles, Marlins, Padres, Dodgers, Yankees) (211-144, 3.28 ERA, 2,397 K's)  Brown had some excellent years with 21 wins in 1992, a 1.89 ERA in 1996 and a 2.58 ERA in 2000.  He was a good pitcher throughout his career, but there were too many mediocre seasons mixed in with the good ones for me.  He also signed the first 100 million dollar contract in baseball, and failed to live up to it.  Good career, lots of money, not a Hall of Famer.

John Franco- (Reds, Mets, Astros) (2.89 ERA, 424 Saves) Between 1986 and 1998 he was a stud closer.  He ended his career with 424 saves and currently ranks 4th on the all time list.  The voters have shown more willingness in recent years while voting for relievers and he has more saves than Gossage and Sutter ended with.  I suppose it depends how you view closers if Franco gets your support.  He doesn't get mine, at least not this year.

Juan Gonzalez- (Rangers, Tigers, Indians, Royals) (.295/.343/.561, 434 HR, 1,404 RBI, 1,936 H)  The 2 time MVP has the least at bats to 400 home runs out of anyone in the 400 HR club besides Albert Pujols.  He had some monster years during years when monster years were common, especially in Texas. Gonzalez career was very strange.  He turned down big money from the Tigers because he didn't like playing at Comerica Park, and never received a contract close to that again.  It may have been the stupidest decision a player/agent have ever made.  He also quit on the Royals in 2004 and ended his career in 2005 with the Indians where he recorded 1 at bat.  I liked Gonzalez, but I have to pass on the Hall of Fame.

Marquis Grissom- (Expos, Braves, Indians, Brewers, Dodgers, Giants) (.272/.318/.415, 227 HR, 967 RBI, 2,251 H, 429 SB)  I remember the times when Marquis Grissom was the first pick in fantasy leagues.  He had a rare combination of speed and power potential that very few have.  In 1993, he hit .298/.351/.438 with 19 homers, 95 RBI and 53 SBs.  He had some solid years in 1996, 1999, 2003 and 2004 but he never lived up to all of that potential he showed during his early days in Montreal.  I liked Grissom a lot but he's a no.

Lenny Harris- (Reds, Dodgers, Mets, Rockies, Diamondbacks, Brewers, Cubs, Marlins) (.269/.318/.349, 37 HR, 369 RBI, 1,055 H)  Lenny Harris was a very good bench player in the NL for a lot of years.  He had a nice long career and was a good pinch hitter.  That being said, Lenny Harris' mother wouldn't vote for him to be in the Hall of Fame.  Next. 

Bobby Higginson- (Tigers) (.272/.358/.455, 187 HR, 709 RBI, 1,336 H)- I usually give a bump to those who stay with one team their entire career.  Bobby Higginson will not receive said bump.  He had some good years, some bad years and some in between years.  He was the best player on the worst Tiger teams of all time. Congratulations. Next.

Charles Johnson- (Marlins, Dodgers, Orioles, White Sox, Rockies, Devil Rays) (.245/.330/.433, 167 HR, 570 RBI, 940 H)  CJ was a very good catcher in his early years and very few have had the rifle that he possessed.  He also had some power.  His best offensive season was in 2000, when he hit .304/.379/.582, 31 HR, 91 RBI with the Orioles and White Sox.  He was awesome after he joined the Sox hitting .326/.411/.607 for us in 44 games as we nailed down the American League central.  A big thank you for that partial season CJ, but you aren't a Hall of Famer.

Barry Larkin- (Reds) (.295/.371/.444, 198 HR, 960 RBI, 2,340 H, 379 SB) Larkin was the best shortstop for over a decade in the National League.  The 12 time all star lived in the shadow of Ozzie Smith during some of those years, even though he was a better player than Smith was.  He had 9 silver sluggers, 3 gold gloves and an MVP. Without hesitation he gets my vote.  

Al Leiter- (Yankees, Blue Jays, Marlins, Mets) (162-132, 3.80 ERA, 1,974 K's)  Leiter had some good years later in his career for some good Marlins and Mets teams and pitched well in the 2000 Subway series.  He would have been a nice addition to the pitching starved Sox in the late 90s or early 2000s but he is in no way a Hall of Famer.

Edgar Martinez- (Mariners) (.312/.418/.515, 309 HR, 1,261 RBI, 2,247 H)  Edgar Martinez was a great hitter for a number of years and is just as much a part of Seattle baseball history as Griffey, Johnson or Ichiro are.  He was a 2 time batting champion and a 7 time all star.  Like I said with Baines, the DH is a position and should be recognized as such in Hall of Fame voting.  I think any pitcher that faced them will tell you as much.  Martinez had bigger years than Harold did, but not as many good ones as Harold did.  Baines and Martinez both deserve to be Hall of Famers in my opinion. 

Tino Martinez- (Mariners, Yankees, Cardinals, Devil Rays) (.271/.344/.471, 339 HR, 1,271 RBI, 1,925 H) Tino was a fan favorite for the Yankees during their impressive run of the late 90s/early 2000s.  He came into a rough situation having to take over for Donnie Baseball and he did an outstanding job.  He was 2nd in the MVP voting in 1997 with 44 homers and 141 RBI's.  He had some impressive seasons from 1995-2001 but is not in the top 5 of first basemen on this ballot alone.  Good career, no Hall.  

Don Mattingly- (Yankees) As a kid first starting to watch baseball in the early 80s, very few people struck more fear into my little heart as Don Mattingly did.  His 1984-1987 are historically good.  He had batting averages of .343, .324, .352 and .327 in those campaigns, had 200 + hits in 3 of the 4, 30 + homers in 3 of the 4, 110 + RBI in all of them.  All of this while playing excellent first base.  Unfortunately back problems derailed what was sure to be a HOF career.  After those four seasons, he became a good player along the lines of Mark Grace. He doesn't have the big career numbers, so you have to look at peak seasons.  He had as good of a peak as anyone, but it was only for 4 years.  I loved Mattingly and if you would have asked anyone in 1986 if he's a Hall of Famer they would have said yes, but unfortunately I have to decline.  

Fred McGriff- (Blue Jays, Padres, Braves, Devil Rays, Cubs, Dodgers) (.284/.377/.509, 493 HR, 1,550 RBI, 2,490 H) This is a really tough call for me.  McGriff was a great power hitter for many years.  He led each league in homers and was a 5 time all star.  He also has my favorite finish to a swing.  I reserve the right to change my mind in future years, but right now I have to say no, even though I really feel bad about doing it.  My guess is in 10 years people will look at McGriff's numbers and say "how in the hell isn't he in", kind of like they are doing for Blyleven now. 

Mark McGwire- (A's, Cardinals) (.263/.394/.588, 583 HR, 1,414 RBI, 1,626 H)  McGwire has well over 500 home runs which is usually an automatic bid.  However, he is an admitted steroid guy.  He's been getting in the low 20%'s so far in his 4 tries on the ballot.  He did fully "talk about the past" during 2010 when he became the hitting coach of the Cardinals.  Will this give him a bump in voting?  I did vote for him last year, but this year I left him off.  The reason, I already voted for 9 guys and if I included him I would have to include Palmeiro too and there isn't room for them.  To me if you vote for one, you vote for the other and if you leave one off you should leave the other off.

Raul Mondesi- (Dodgers, Blue Jays, Yankees, Diamondbacks, Pirates, Angels, Braves) (.273/.331/.485, 271 HR, 860 RBI, 1,589 H)  Mondesi was full of potential when he started off on the Dodgers, winning the Rookie of the Year in 1994.  He had some good offensive seasons in LA, I remember thinking him and Sosa were about the same player.  Sosa obviously took off, Mondesi evened out and fell off.  He isn't nearly as good as Juan Gonzalez and I already voted him down, so its a no go for Mondesi.  By the way, I don't ever remember him playing on the Pirates and Angels.  That shows where his career ended up.  

Jack Morris-(Tigers, Twins, Blue Jays, Indians) (254-186, 3.90 ERA, 2,478 K's)  Ok Blyleven guys, be prepared to hate me.  I did select Jack Morris for the Hall of Fame.  To me, Morris was the best pitcher of the 80s in his league, he was the ace of 3 World Champions and was the World Series MVP for the Twins.  He also threw a no-hitter and growing up in the 80s, you knew you were in for a very long night if Jack Morris was taking the hill.  It is true that he would have the highest ERA among any pitchers in Cooperstown, but if I had to pick a pitcher in the AL during the 80s to pitch a game for me- it would be Jack Morris.

Dale Murphy- (Braves, Phillies, Rockies) (.265/.346/.469, 398 HR, 1,266 RBI, 2,111 H, 161 SB)  Murphy was as good as they came in the early 80s.  He is a 2 time MVP (1982-83) and played very solid defense, earning 5 gold gloves.  He also appeared in 7 all star games and won 4 silver sluggers.  He is another guy that should receive some more consideration based on the fact that Rice and Dawson are in.  Murphy was just as good as those guys were.  However, I am not going to be the one to vote him in.  I just don't think he was as good for as long to make it.   The last 6 seasons of his career were very forgettable.

John Olerud- (Blue Jays, Mets, Mariners, Yankees, Red Sox) (.295/.398/.465, 255 HR, 1,230 RBI, 2,239 H)- He was a very solid hitter and his 1993 was just magnificent for the Blue Jays when he hit .353/.473/.599 with 54 doubles and 24 homers.  He was a very nice hitter, who stacks up very comparably with Mattingly.  My Hall of Fame first basemen need more power, however, so Olerud gets voted down.  

Rafael Palmeiro- (Cubs, Rangers, Orioles) (.288/.371/.515, 569 HR, 1835 RBI, 3,020 H)  Palmeiro came into the league with the Cubs and hit .307 with 8 homers in his first year of full time duty.  He then got traded because the Cubs thought Mark Grace had more power at first.  Suddenly, he found the magic Texas booty juice and became one of the greatest hitters of all time.  3,000 hits... check... 500 homers.... check... 1800 RBI's... check.  Unfortunately for him, Jose Canseco called him out in "Juiced".  Everyone thought Palmeiro was clean and he went to Congress firmly denying that he ever used.  A couple of months later and he tested dirty and was out of the game.  Obviously, he is in if you are ready to induct proven steroid guys.  Are you? I thought I was, but apparently I'm not because he isn't on my ballot.

Dave Parker- (Pirates, Reds, A's, Brewers, Angels, Blue Jays) (.290/.339/.471, 339 HR, 1,493 RBI, 2,712 H, 154 SB) This is the Cobra's 15th and final time on the ballot.  He should be getting more consideration since his numbers (both prime and career) stack up pretty favorably to Dawson and Rice.  However, Parker got only 15.2% last season.  The problem most have is his sharp decline starting in 1980-1983.  It was at this time where Parker suffered injuries, gained weight and admitted to heavy cocaine usage.  He rebounded in 1985 and 86 with the Reds and then again with the A's in 89 and 90.  If he would have had big years in the early 80s he would have probably been a lock.  Unfortunately, his fate will rest in the hands of the veterans committee.

Tim Raines- (Expos, White Sox, Yankees, A's, Orioles, Marlins) (.294/.385/.425, 170 HR, 980 RBI, 2,605 H, 808 SB's) Rickey Henderson is one of the greatest players to ever play the game and in my opinion the guy closest to him was Tim Raines.  The Rock was an all star 7 times in Montreal and in my opinion was better than his teammate who got elected last year.  He was the prototypical leadoff man that got on base a ton, stole a lot of bases at a higher percentage than anyone else and had some good pop in his bat.  In 1991, he came to the Sox and put up wonderful numbers.  He was a key part to the 1993 championship team with a line of .306/.401/.480, 16 homers, 54 RBI and 21 SBs.  He hung around late in his career as a bench player, but Raines was very productive in that role as well.  It wasn't like he was just hanging on, as he produced some big numbers off the bench for the powerful Yankee teams of the late 90s.  This one is a no doubter for me.  I don't understand how people leave him off.

Kirk Rueter- (Expos, Giants) (130-92, 4.27 ERA, 818 K's) Had a couple of serviceable years for the Bonds era Giants.  Lenny Harris' mom wouldn't vote for him either. Next.

Benito Santiago- (Padres, Marlins, Reds, Phillies, Blue Jays, Cubs, Giants, Royals, Pirates) (.263/.307/.415, 217 HR, 920 RBI, 1,830 H, 91 SBs)  Santiago was one of my favorite catchers when he was on the Padres.  He would gun people out from the crouch with ease.  He was also Rookie of the Year in 1987 with a .300/.324/.467, 18 HR, 21 SBs.  These were big numbers for catchers at the time as Piazza and Rodriguez were yet to come around.  However, Santiago soon became a wanderer for the rest of his career, always possessing the rocket arm and occasional power.  Think of a slightly better Miguel Olivo and you have Santiago.  Not nearly a Hall of Famer, but was fun to watch in the late 80s. Thanks for that at least, Benny.

Lee Smith- (Cubs, Red Sox, Cardinals, Yankees, Orioles, Angels, Reds, Expos) (478 saves, 3.03 ERA, 8.7 K/9) Lee was the first (at least one of the first and most successful) modern closers.  When he retired he left with a then record 478 saves, which have since been passed by Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera.  If you are willing to let the modern era closers in, Lee Smith has to get in first.  He defined a new role of reliever that has been prevalent in baseball for the last 30 years.  The thinking is starting to move back (at least around here) to getting the last 3 outs when you are up 3 is no big deal.  I did vote for Lee Smith.  I think if you are going to consider any modern closer you have to take Smith and for god sakes he was better than Sutter who is already in.  Go ahead and bash away!

BJ Surhoff- (Brewers, Orioles, Braves) (.282/.332/.413, 188 HR, 1,153 RBI, 2,326 H, 141 SBs)  I liked BJ Surhoff.  I thought he was a good competitor and a nice hitter. He had a real solid career and should be very proud of what he accomplished.  However, this is the last time I want to think about BJ Surhoff in my life.  

Alan Trammell- (Tigers) (.285/.352/.415, 185 HR, 1,003 RBI, 2,365 H, 236 SB)  I really don't get it.  I would have bet everything I had that Lou Whitaker and Alan Trammell would be Hall of Famers when they retired.  They both should be.  I don't understand how Whitaker is off the ballot (one of the biggest Hall travesties ever in my opinion) and Trammell receives very little support.  No, he didn't have the power like Ripken or the flash like Smith, but he was as solid as they came.  He was great in the field, great with the glove, played on a World Champion, stayed with the same organization his whole career.... I just don't get it.  Don't make the same mistake as the writers probably will. Vote for Trammell. 

Larry Walker- (Expos, Rockies, Cardinals) (.313/.400/.565, 383 HR, 1,311 RBI, 2,160 H, 230 SB)  Larry Walker had some very solid years on the Expos before going to Colorado and becoming one of the poster boys for "Coors Field aided hitting".  Some of his batting averages are off the charts- .366, .363, .379, .350. He had some pop too, going for 49 (his MVP year of 1997), 38, 37, 36 in single seasons.  He also retired when he was still producing instead of hanging on a la Mondesi and Murphy.  I just can't put him in the Hall.  I am sure he will garner some good support, it just won't be from me.

 

So there you have it.  My ballot consists of 9 guys.  I have said many times that I am a Big Hall kind of guy and this year is no exception, as I voted for Alomar, Bagwell, Baines, Larkin, E. Martinez, Morris, Raines, L. Smith and A. Trammell.  After I think about it, maybe I won't be such a Big Hall guy in a few years.  This just happens to be when most guys from the 80s and early to mid 90s are on the ballot, and that was when I was a kid and these guys were my heros.  It is what it is.  Cast your votes- remember only 10 max and if you don't think anyone should be in- go choose none as an option so we get an accurate reading.  Special thanks go out to U-God who did this last year and came up with the spreadsheet process.  Everyone have a Happy, Healthy, Safe New Year and here is to 2011 being as wonderful as 2005! 

Comment 176 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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On Topic- KenWo, This is a great piece.

Among the myriad of new things I’m forced to admit that I like about Noose, the addition of KenWo’s Corner is at the top. Jerk.

OT- To all you SSSholes-
A big New Year Thank You to all of you. My pretty much daily interactions with you guys here this past year have undoubtedly enriched my life. It was better than it would have been without you. (Now that’s some sorry shit, isn’t it?)

Mix of topics-
2011 bodes so well for the Sox that it started with a good omen before 2011 even started. I went to go see True Grit yesterday. In the parking garage, next to my buddy’s car when we were done with the movie was parked this-

2011White Sox-

ALL IN

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Jan 1, 2011 3:08 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

Sox Girls: All Out.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jan 1, 2011 3:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Happy Noose Year

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 7:10 AM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for the kind words... shoulda slipped a "visit southsidesox for all of your white sox information" on it.

maybe they were hot and could have made the meth up even more a swingin time. lol

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Shit. If I hear "All In" again I'm going to have an aneurysm!

From Dabo’s twitter:

Less than 2 weeks away now. We will be ready…. I hope yall are! ALL IN
Mon Aug 24 2009 11:20:03 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

14 days and counting. Great day to be a Tiger. ALL IN!
Fri Aug 21 2009 07:56:00 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

Gettin ready for day 5. FULL pads today. Team is working hard and grinding. Gotta love it! Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Sun Aug 09 2009 10:27:21 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

Had great meetings this week with the staff. We are READY!! Can’t wait for the team to report Monday. Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Sat Aug 01 2009 18:39:34 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

Thanks to all the ladies that came to the clinic today. We raised $30,600 for breast cancer research. Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Sat Jul 25 2009 17:27:44 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

CU Idol is going on between Byron Clear, Korn, L Walker, Zimmerman, Benton… Gonna be close Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Sat Jul 25 2009 14:14:07 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

The Ladies clinic is ALL IN!!!! Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Sat Jul 25 2009 13:51:48 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

WOW!!! We have almost 1,100 ladies at our Ladies Clinic. Raising $$ for breast cancer….Thnx ladies!! Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Sat Jul 25 2009 11:37:09 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

Please keep Brad Scott & family in ur prayers. Brad’s 36 yr old brother-in-law died last night. Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Tue Jul 21 2009 16:41:23 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Tue Jul 21 2009 16:40:15 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

Having a good day with the media out at the Reserve today. Fun to start talking some football again. Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Tue Jul 21 2009 16:09:56 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

Getting settled into the new WestZone. It is a first class facility that we should all be proud of. Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Tue Jul 21 2009 16:07:37 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

I hope all the Clemson nation is getting ready to rock Death Valley on Sept 5th. Enjoy rest of your summer Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Sun Jul 12 2009 18:34:35 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

Had a great vacation w/family. Fired up to get back to CU and move in WZone. Fball is in the air! Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
Sun Jul 12 2009 18:31:45 (Eastern Daylight Time) via txt

always a great time at dinner with my friends Fred & Jeannie Gilmer, Glenn & Susan Batson. Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
6:00 PM Jun 16th, 2009 via txt

Having dinner at one of my favorite restr….Blue Heron in Clemson. Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
5:59 PM Jun 16th, 2009 via txt

go tigers Dabo Swinney- Clemson “ALL IN”
3:08 PM Jun 16th, 2009 via txt

Needless to say, I was so happy to hear that the White Sox’ 2011 Slogan would be: We’re all in

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 1, 2011 3:58 AM CST reply actions  

I am personally a big fan of Alomar.

I think it is absurd he isnt HOF yet but Blyleven can suck on my whitey tightey jockey shorts Lutheran hating nuts.

Two rights make one wrong

by Rhubarb on Jan 1, 2011 4:17 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

This has to be green.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Jan 1, 2011 8:56 PM CST up reply actions  

"This is because when people saw him pitch, he never screamed out Hall of Famer."

It would be very distracting if he did.

Nice work.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 6:32 AM CST reply actions  

One-sentence ballot

Alomar: Maybe the metrics say differently, but I thought he was great defensively.
Bagwell: Need legitimate steroid ties before I think about not voting for him. Few first basemen could do more.
Blyleven: Fifth all time in strikeouts, ninth in shutouts, ferocious curveball — plenty to put on his plaque.
Brown: I’m sold on him the least, but he led some great staffs, and his best six years (1996-2001) were eye-popping for such a hitter-dominated time (cumulative 2.53 ERA).
Larkin: Could do everything at a premium defensive position, and for a long time.
Edgar Martinez: Forget Jim Rice – hitters are legitimately scary when there’s no way to pitch to them.
McGwire: My 16-year-old self wondered what was up with his forearms in ‘98, but baseball didn’t care because he helped erase the rest of the strike stink.
Olerud: Courtesy vote, because he demoralized Sox pitchers.
Raines: Reached base more times than Tony Gwynn, and few, if anybody, ran the bases better.
Trammell: Being a shade behind Larkin is still plenty good enough.

Tough omissions

Palmeiro: Dumb enough to get caught when they finally got around to testing.
Walker: A complete package and a terror when he was healthy, but only played in 140+ games four times.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 7:09 AM CST reply actions  

Happy New Year!

Nice piece Kenwo. BUT…….

Your right leaving off Blyleven is bad enough but trying to include Morris?

but if I had to pick a pitcher in the AL during the 80s to pitch a game for me- it would be Jack Morris.

I have heard this crap a few times.

Well if I had to pick 1 pitcher from the 80s to pitch a game for me here are at least 4 I’d take ahead instead of Morris.
Orel Hershiser
Dwight Gooden
Bret Saberhagen
Roger Clemens

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 7:57 AM CST reply actions  

Morris was good from the start of the 80s til the end of them

and Doctor K and Hershiser were in the NL. Clemens didn’t get things going til 86 and I’d take Morris over saberhagen any day of the week.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions  

who cares

Clemens 5 years in the 80s were far superior. You said pitcher in the 80s not nl or al. Saberhagen won 2 Cy Youngs are you on crack?

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

My HOF can not be filled with fringe stars.

I’m a small hall guy therefore enter Alomar and Larkin. When they build the separate wing for all the cheaters, we can start allowing some of the chemically enhanced.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 1, 2011 8:21 AM CST reply actions  

I gotta agree with you here.

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jan 1, 2011 8:58 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

This.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jan 1, 2011 8:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Half the guys in the '70s were taking greenies.

Stealing signs has been common through most of baseball history. Gaylord Perry’s in the Hall, and everybody knows he threw a spitball. The spitball was against the rules; steroids weren’t. There are probably dozens of players in the Hall who cheated in some form or another. And unlike the steroid users, they were actually breaking the rules.

by marv3mania on Jan 1, 2011 9:32 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, they were breaking the law

But so were the greenie-users.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 9:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Thank you

the not breaking rules argument is fallacious, since steroids were illegal under federal law and by extension illegal in MLB as well. They shouldn’t need to write in the MLB rulebook that murder isn’t allowed in clubhouses, for example. Several commissioners also referenced this to the players at various points in MLB history before it was put into the rulebook explicitly.

It was known that steroids were against the law (and by extension in baseball), that the commissioner of baseball had warned players that it was banned, though it is also true that before long they knew no one would hold them accountable.

by kcgard2 on Jan 1, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions  

And yet no on wants to go

back and release complete lists of who used then.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 1, 2011 11:21 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

this is why Im glad there is 15 years

to decide and its ridiculous to say if you didn’t get in on the x vote you shouldn’t at all. Things change. Better ways of evaluation come along. Time passing gives us a better perspective. In a few more years we’ll have a better handle on the “effect” of the steroid era.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 9:37 AM CST up reply actions  

And if nobody changes their mind

The Hall might change the rules. Doesn’t help the economy of Cooperstown to reject star after star because he might have used.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

It shouldn't take anyone 15 years to determine if a player was one of the dominating players of his era.

Time passing allows for sentiment to sway votes but it doesn’t make players better than they were when they played against their peers.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 1, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions  

when did I say that?

I said evaluation methods improve. We now know certain stats are horseshit or heavily dependent on factors outside a players control.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm also a little leery of revering the Hall to the point

That it glorifies those who worked to uphold the color barrier. If steroid users cheapen Cap Anson’s legacy, that’s awesome.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

but, but, cap anson's contemporaries thought it was okay!

and that’s all that should matter. we should never, ever question the evaluation of those who were actually there.

by larry on Jan 1, 2011 10:30 AM CST up reply actions  

good point.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 1, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Jan 1, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Big Bert.

Come on guys, Bert Blyleven deserves in!! He was one of the dominant pitchers of his time. He had the best curveball in baseball for a decade. Don’t penalize him because he pitched for the Twinkees.

by soxfan50 on Jan 1, 2011 9:35 AM CST reply actions  

I put Bert in a group of very good pitchers who simply were not the best of their era.

Frank Tanana, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Mickey Lolich etc were good pitchers that were simply out-classed by Carlton, Seaver, Palmer, Jenkins, Perry, Niekro, Clemens etc.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 1, 2011 9:56 AM CST up reply actions  

lol

People love to say this stuff but never “back” it up. Baseball is the ultimate comparison sport. It doesn’t need folks “gut” feelings. Simply Bert’s stats counting and sabermetric place him among the greats of all time. My gut has nothing to do with that.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Bagwell: definite yes
Larkin: solid yes
Alomar: solid yes
Blyleven: yes
Raines: yes
Trammell: sabr-movement-convinced yes
E. Martinez: yes
L. Smith: borderline yes, but only on the standards the Hall has already set for relievers by which he can’t be left out with consistent thinking.

Baines: no, not enough peak (basically no peak – 1 season above 3.5 WAR).
Brown: not quite – awesome peak, but well short in counting numbers (gray ink?), career arc and steroid cloud also hurt.
Morris: no
Walker: not quite – Coors effect, durability. Without Coors, I think people would be solidly in the camp that he’s not quite a HoFer.
McGwire: no
Palmeiro: no (torn about both of these because not sure what to do about steroids, honestly)
McGriff: no, not top-5 or maybe even top-8 at the position during his career, good peak but not truly great
Murphy: barely no, lacks longevity, but very underrated player. I’m a Small Hall guy.
Olerud: begrudging no – defense just isn’t that valuable at 1B, but another highly underrated player due to irregular shape of production.

The others are not serious candidates

by kcgard2 on Jan 1, 2011 9:42 AM CST reply actions  

Why isn't defense valuable at first?

Runs prevented are worth the same wherever you are on the diamond.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 1, 2011 11:28 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

less chances on batted balls.

though one can argue scoops and so on.

by larry on Jan 1, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

iirc, 1B get the same number of chances per game as 3B

but even if they don’t, whatever chances they make compared to X is still worth runs above X. otherwise we would conclude that Frank Thomas was definitely better than Jeff Bagwell.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 1, 2011 11:52 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

he just said it isn't that valuable.

the implication being it’s not as important someplace else. of course we can approximate the value of olerud’s defense in comparison to larkin’s defense.

by larry on Jan 1, 2011 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah you're right

Not on my A game. Too Michigan-focused.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 1, 2011 12:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

My ballot would look like this:

Alomar – No-brainer.
Bagwell – One of only 16 players with a career OBP of .400 and SLG of .500, and only two (Bonds and Cobb) stole more bases. He was clearly a Hall of Fame-caliber hitter. His numbers dropped at the end because of an arthritic shoulder. Another easy choice for me.
Blyleven – Better WHIP, ERA, and ERA+ than Morris. Over 1200 more K’s, but 68 FEWER walks, despite over 1100 more innings. Gave up fewers HR per 9 IP. Significant lead in bWAR (90.1 to 39.3) (note: I looked at fWAR, too, but it didn’t include anything before 1980 (i.e., the first 10 years of Blyleven’s career)).
Larkin – If he’d stayed healthy, he could have been the best shortstop ever.
E. Martinez – List of players to hit .300/.400/.500 with 300 HR and 500 2B: Ruth, Gehrig, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Bonds, Martinez.
McGwire – Historically great power hitter who almost single-handedly changed the way baseball was played. I include him and exclude Palmeiro because of the impact McGwire had on baseball as a whole.
Tim Raines – Would already be in if Rickey hadn’t been so amazing.
Trammell – Would already be in if Ripken hadn’t been so amazing.

by marv3mania on Jan 1, 2011 9:51 AM CST reply actions  

Lee Smith (or at least his managers) "changed the way the game was played"

he is the modern era closer…. so until he gets in- no closer gets in (unless mariano comes up but he’s of a different animal).

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 11:31 AM CST reply actions  

Smith doesn't impress me

But neither did Sutter, and I don’t think Sutter’s induction changes the game.

And I don’t think Trevor Hoffman is all that worthy, and he’s the all-time leader. His postseason performance has sucked, especially if you include Game 163 in 2007.

Single-inning closers have proven so interchangeable that I think it’ll either take a Mariano-type postseason resume, or a serious string of Gagne-like years, to think they merit HOF status.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

If Don Mattingly were elected, Paul Konerko would be an almost given.

And as much as I love Paulie, he is no Hall of Famer at this point. If he has a couple more years like last year, he merits serious consideration. For what it’s worth, if Don Mattingly had played for the Brewers or the Mariners, he wouldn’t be pushed as hard as he is. His uniform has a lot to do with the continued push to get him in.

'It's the Chicago Blackhawks, man!' -Jeremy freaking Roenick

by 10thMountainFire on Jan 1, 2011 11:38 AM CST reply actions  

For debate: career closers should never make the HOF

Bartolo Colon and Jon Lieber have more career fWAR than Mariano Rivera, the greatest closer of all time. IOW, they just do not pitch enough. They’re all failed starters which makes the best closers more or less no better than the somewhat above average starters they could have been.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 1, 2011 11:45 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

so you would say no to mariano?

i can see your point on everyone else, but to me that guy is different.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure.

I love Mariano. The one Yankee I don’t totally despise. But if we’re being heartless bastards and are after the best of all time, then that’s maybe how we should vote. A closer, even including leverage, is pretty much never going to have an average HOF career. But the real sticking point for me is that a lot of guys who went on to be good but not HOF pitchers could have very likely matched the careers of the very best closers.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 1, 2011 11:56 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Thoughts on Eckersely?

HOF and MVP. Deserving?

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jan 1, 2011 12:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

i have a hard time giving an mvp to a pitcher...even more so a relief pitcher

willie hernandez is a great example of that…. but i think eck is a hall of famer for sure.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 12:54 PM CST up reply actions  

One of the pitchers more deserving than Hernandez that year?

Bert Blyleven. Heh.

But Hernandez was a beast that year. 80 games and 140 innings of sub-1.00 WHIP pitching is pretty damned valuable over the course of a season.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

i have no problem giving him the Cy Young...

(well i kind of do)… but no where near giving a relief pitcher the MVP. Hrbek was 2nd that year, murray, gibson, dwight evans, harold, mattingly, trammell…. i don’t care pick one…. more deserving than a relief pitcher no matter how beastly they are (and he was thats for sure).

I guess it was the thinking of the times though because the Quiz was 3rd in the voting.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

perhaps.

but then i think this illustrates why it is quite important to include playoffs in such calculations. there are players out there nowadays, particularly long-time yankees, who have a season’s (or more) worth of performance that doesn’t get included in your calculation. and playoffs are far more important than jon lieber’s pirates career.

by larry on Jan 1, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Is it Rivera's fault he was a Yankee?

you have to play in like 10 WS to get another season’s worth of games.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 1, 2011 12:00 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

i don't get your point. perhaps your question should be is it lieber's fault that he wasn't a yankee as long as rivera

your example above totally ignores 140 innings of pitching in the most important games of the baseball season.

by larry on Jan 1, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Some players are luckier than others

Maybe Rivera shouldn’t have gotten all the opportunities he has, but he’s maximized the hell out of it.

Trevor Hoffman has failed more times in the postseason than Rivera, and he’s had just 9.5 percent of the opportunities. Rivera’s success against the best is hard to deny.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

i also note.

that i bet this is an instance where rWAR is radically, radically different than fWAR.

by larry on Jan 1, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha.

Rivera: 36.5 fWAR, 52.9 rWAR
Lieber: 37.5 fWAR, 23.3 rWAR
Colon: 36.8 fWAR, 32.3 rWAR

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Id hesitate to put most relievers in.

But Mariano is a lock. The guy has been amazing.
I think it was 07 when he had a slightly down year and I thought finally! but then he has been a machine ever since.

i'm eager to see which of you is going to put his jacket down first so as to ensure the other’s dress doesn’t get wet. by craigws

by e-gus on Jan 1, 2011 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

im fine with that take...

the voters put in bruce sutter though. since they did that i think they need to take roberto hernandez. (i’m not being serious about roberto being a hall of famer… but sutter or hernandez? to me it is a toss up)

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

This is what gets me with marginal HOF candidates

Because some fringe HOF gets in doesn’t mean that every player that has somewhat similar stats is deserving. The HOF is for the best of the best. It’s not meant for players to be on the ballot for 12 years without getting in, and then in a down year to get voted in.

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jan 1, 2011 12:49 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I dont think Bert is marginal.

Or Ron Santo.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 1:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope when they vote Santo in his family tells them to go fuck themselves.

It was a nice running gag but it’s downright shameful Santo wasn’t elected.

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 1, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions  

his crazy self promotion towards the end was also pretty shameful.

i didn’t like the guy and always smiled when i heard he didn’t make it yet again….. but he did get screwed even i can admit that.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

That's why I enjoyed seeing him get snubbed, but after realizing most players are shameless self-promoters

It wasn’t such a bad thing. The HOF is essentially a museum, if I went there in 25 years and guys like Rivera and Santo aren’t in it I can’t really take the premise of the place seriously.

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 1, 2011 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

the lou whitaker case is the biggest sham of them all.

2% of the votes in 2001… banged off the ballot after one year. Alomar was better… but Whitaker and Sandberg were very similar….. as were whitaker and morgan. He was an all time great 2nd baseman. I think a few guys from this era got screwed because the tainted stats of the mid 90s early 2000s made them look not as good. If jeff kent gets more consideration than whitaker got i think i’ll throw up.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Whitaker and Sanberg

were like the exact same player. I’m not sure either deserves to be in but one getting in while another gets tosses aside after one year indicates something is wrong.

I really think Whitaker gets in via Veterans, but it’s tough to say with so much politics involved.

by Gentleman Jim on Jan 1, 2011 10:35 PM CST up reply actions  

santo was before my time. to me it seems like the whole Larkin/ozzie smith

thing with Brooks Robinson being so flashy and getting the pub- and Santo being just as good and not getting nowhere near the attention.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah. I actually left Larkin off my sss ballot on accident

hes just as easy to overlook I guess.

i'm eager to see which of you is going to put his jacket down first so as to ensure the other’s dress doesn’t get wet. by craigws

by e-gus on Jan 1, 2011 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

There are only a couplle of players not in the Hall that I think belong.

Ron Santo was clearly the best player at his position in the National League. Brooks Robinson was the best in the American League at the time and it could be debated who the better player overall was. I hated him because he was a cub but he belongs in the HOF.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 1, 2011 1:22 PM CST up reply actions  

The voters do

Sorry, but my thoughts are you get 5 years to get in. If you don’t, then you’re off the ballot. You then can go to the veterans committee. If you can’t get in by then, then you aren’t a HOF.

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jan 1, 2011 1:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I have no problem changing the number of years

but all that would happen is voting patterns would change.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Not to mention "who" votes

is clearly a problem. Hordes of knowledgeable voters are currently excluded.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Yup. The 15-year period is the least of the issues.

They should start with a competency exam just to make sure their knowledge of players is current.

Besides, I like having the 15-year period. I regard it like a temporary Hall of Fame, and would probably max out my ballot every year to keep guys in the conversation. For one, it’d help to prevent guys like Whitaker and Will Clark from falling off the ballot because everybody agreed they weren’t “first-ballot” types.

And then there are guys like Kevin Brown, who maybe aren’t HOFers, but are worth keeping around for a while because he serves as a good comparison for upcoming candidates like Curt Schilling and John Smoltz (both are in, to me, but Schilling is debatable).

But I also just like reading about these guys once a year for 15 years. I usually learn something new each time around.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 1:41 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

On the other hand

the writers with the freshest memory and the ones most likely to see the players thay are voting on, would be the 1st 5 years. Blyleven played for over 20 years and after 5 years of waiting for eligibilty, you would think those writers saw a large sample of his games. He didn’t crack 20% in his first 4 or 5 years. Now, there are many writers voting on his compiled stats but may have never seen him pitch or see some of the greats of his era pitch.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 1, 2011 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

i agree with both of you.

The hall of fame is a topic that i really enjoy. I enjoy debating whether or not dave the cobra parker was as good as jim rice….. however i find it very weird that blyleven and others like him get minimal support and then in their 10th-15th years all of a sudden get a wave to carry them in. Of course if all of a sudden harold creeps up and gets in in 2020 I’ll be the happiest guy around.

my major problems of recent years are guys not staying on the ballot. lou whitaker and albert belle are my top 2 examples. whether you think those 2 are hall of famers or not is one thing.. but i think everyone thinks they shouldn’t have been dismissed so quickley

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Older votes are susceptible to it, too.

Jim Rice’s stats are good, not great. He has plenty of non-HOF company. Newer voters — the Blyleven crowd, as you might put it — don’t see what’s so great.

And the older voters didn’t see what was so great, either. Rice got Blyleven-like percentages in his early years. But somehow, this “HE WAS FEARED!” narrative took hold, and carried him to 75 percent. Nobody could explain why he wasn’t feared in his first 12 years of retirement, and why his walk totals didn’t indicate pitchers feared him, but still, FEAR!

I just think there’s a large swath of voters who don’t pay much attention except for the legendary names, and they only start voting when they see other people voting for them.

I would expect to see some movement, due to the 10-player limit, a greater understanding of context, etc. But aside from the “he’s a second-ballot HOFer, not a first!” line of thinking, I don’t think there’s any other way to explain the general rise of voting percentages except for the “I’ll have what they’re having” voters.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree and I don't understand it either.

The voters seem to withhold votes in fear someone might get a first ballot election, or heaven forbid a unanimous vote. How could knowledgeable writers not vote for Nolan Ryan, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron or Ted Williams? Some didn’t, hence no unanimous vote. Then, when players such as Rice and Blyleven start getting attention, they become greater ballplayers than what we remember. I thought Jim Rice was a very good hitter but never thought of him as a hall of famer. Dick Allen was a better ballplayer than Rice but I can understand the argument for his omission.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 1, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the best of what you do should be represented

Im sure Bo Jackson would have been a great punter. He’s wasnt. Ray Guy was.

For me its not the Hall of the greatest starting pitchers…. even though they all would have been kick ass relief pitchers. The game has changed.

just my humble opinion.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

and i assume the rWAR hasn't been updated yet for 2010 numbers.

that number currently is close to HOF. add in a few more WAR for 2010 and then add in a few more WAR than that for his playoffs, and he’s quite comfortably a HOFer today (if one is using solely rWAR as the standard).

by larry on Jan 1, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Oops. Yeah.

Didnt do enough HW on this example.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 1, 2011 12:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

nice article kenwo

this is probably the best thing you’ve ever written.

i'm eager to see which of you is going to put his jacket down first so as to ensure the other’s dress doesn’t get wet. by craigws

by e-gus on Jan 1, 2011 12:23 PM CST reply actions  

thanks...

i think my favorite piece was the one i wrote when the Hurt officially retired…. but debating past players is one of my favorite things to do.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

thanks larry it was a heart felt piece.

by the way i went into Fans Edge at orland mall to buy my bro a xmas gift…. i was absolutely SHOCKED and EXCITED to see that Zubaz were on the rack. lol

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 1, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

i didn't know john olerud had such a fine career.

just short of .400 obp for his career.
i sense bagwell is going to get screwed.

by craigws on Jan 1, 2011 2:18 PM CST reply actions  

My votes. Because I think you care.

Alomar.
Blyleven.
Larkin
E. Martinez
McGriff
Morris
Raines
Smith
Trammell
Walker

Olerud is the only other one I’d vote in next year. The rest don’t belong, IMO, unless my opinion changes on steroid users. Then Bagwell and Palmeiro might get a nod from me. The rest, as I said, don’t belong.

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 1, 2011 2:32 PM CST reply actions  

Why is Bagwell a steroid user?

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

better still.

if you suspect bagwell was, why don’t you also suspect walker.

by larry on Jan 1, 2011 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I use Cal Ripken to frame my mindset

There’s as much evidence that Ripken took steroids as there is on Bagwell: None.

There’s the same amount of specious evidence, if not more in Ripken’s case. They both played in “the steroid era.” Ripken got bigger, his head got bigger, he had no problem recovering from small injuries, he hit for an abnormal amount of power…

Nobody held those things against Ripken, I don’t see how people can hold it against Bagwell.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 1, 2011 2:45 PM CST up reply actions  

right on both counts

im like huh?

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 1, 2011 2:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Hm. Good point. I didn't think this through as much as I should have.

Walker’s numbers are there despite struggling through injuries. He played better defense, and at a harder position. So, even without steroid suspicions, I’d take Walker over Bagwell.

That said, there is no legit proof to Bagwell having taken. But neither has there been proof for Sammy Sosa, Pudge Rodriguez, or Juan Gonzalez, correct? I still suspect all three of those of using, and I don’t have proof. Either Bagwell really did eat 30 pounds of meat a day and work out like Arnold or he juiced. He was just too freakin’ big.

I’m torn. I want Bagwell in for his numbers, but I feel uneasy about doing it. I’ll let someone else vote him in.

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 1, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

i don't think you can club bagwell together with sosa.

sosa’s career line is weird. bagwell was consistent.

by craigws on Jan 1, 2011 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

sosa tested positive in 2003.

the other two were implicated by canseco in his books.

i don’t recall anyone ever saying anything about bagwell.

by larry on Jan 1, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Gotcha.

I’ll give you the eye test. Which, to anyone other than me, means diddly squat, but whatever.

Compare Walker and Bagwell’s builds. Walker is listed on MLB’s page as 6’3" 235, Bagwell 6’0" 215.

Bagwell, to me, just looked unnaturally muscular for his height, compared to Walker. Walker simply didn’t look like a user. At some points in his career, Bagwell looked like a user. Then on top of that, consider how little he was, how big he got, then how little he got later. It just looks suspicious to me. No doubt he was a great hitter, but I think he juiced. And I got no proof.

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 1, 2011 3:18 PM CST up reply actions  

lol. you're not doing the eye test right ;)

Whatever, though. I wouldn’t vote him in. Some won’t vote him in because of his lack of elite power numbers and hits

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 1, 2011 3:39 PM CST up reply actions  

He didn't have 500 or 3000...

But I was a bit surprised to find out that, among players with 9000+ PA, he’s 15th in SLG, right between Aaron and Griffey. Every player ahead of him is either in the Hall or not yet eligible (Bonds, Manny, A-Rod, Thome, Thomas). Every eligible player with a better OBP in 9000+ PA is in. He had a better career wOBA than Aaron, Sisler, Schmidt, and Killebrew. He compares quite favorably to the all-time great hitters, and that’s playing half his games in the Astrodome.

by marv3mania on Jan 1, 2011 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Right. And it's not like he was a terrible fielder, either. His numbers say yes, to me.

I’d not vote for him for a number of years. Get a feeling for how the steroid era has been represented, see if any proof comes out, and go from there. It’ll be interesting to see how they deal with Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, and eventually, A-Rod and Pudge.

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 1, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Those guys are tough.

Bonds is the face of the steroids era. Clemens is as unpopular as former players can get. But both of them were locks for the Hall before 2000. Setting aside the steroids issue, Bonds is undoubtedly one of the three best hitters ever, plus he was a great defensive player most of his career and stole tons of bases. Clemens is possibly the best pitcher ever. They have that steroid taint, though. A-Rod looked like a first ballot lock until testing kicked in, and he has gone from amazing to very good but injury prone. Pudge WILL get in on the first ballot. Steroids is still viewed as a home run issue, and Pudge was best known for his defense.

by marv3mania on Jan 1, 2011 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

More specifically, Pudge was best known for his arm.

He was also known for his exceptional bat for a catcher.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 1, 2011 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

thats how i felt about larkin

i'm eager to see which of you is going to put his jacket down first so as to ensure the other’s dress doesn’t get wet. by craigws

by e-gus on Jan 1, 2011 5:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I only used 2 of mine

so give one of mine to gus since he fucked his up at least 9 ways.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 4, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

what is this?

the chicago mayor election?

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Jan 4, 2011 11:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I get tired of "steroids-era" and "Coors field aided" arguments

MLB is played in Colorado, and steroids were not against the rules when most of the guys of the era were using them. Nobody says a word about admitted cocaine and amphetamine users, so why whine about steroids? As far as Coors Field, the Polo grounds had ridiculous foul pole measurements. Should anyone who played for the NY Giants be thrown out of the hall?

Palmiero is a HOF. He has the numbers, steroids-aided, or not. Lots of guys did steroids and hit .230. The talent must be there.

by TasteeFreeze on Jan 2, 2011 9:26 AM CST reply actions  

in addition to the fact that palmeiro is obviously a different case because he was using when it was against the rules

he’s a pretty borderline candidate. certainly the talent was there. but maybe that talent wasn’t quite hall of fame worthy without PEDs. for me, i don’t think his career numbers, aided or not, are good enough anyway.

by larry on Jan 2, 2011 9:37 AM CST up reply actions  

really?

3000/500 seems to be a standard HOF number set. If you’re referring to Palmeiro’s periferrals and WAR, I’ll defer to you on that.

However, cocaine was illegal, tested for and against the rules when Molitor got caught. So was the spitball for Gaylord Perry, and it’s seen as cute. I don’t remember a big hubub when Molitor was elected, except for his DH-y-ness. The cocaine use was mentioned, but wasn’t really put forth as an argument for not electing him. The Jayson Stark diatribes against Gaylord Perry must have been posted on another internet.

The only cheating that MLB has ever firmly put it’s foot down on is gambling and throwing games: cheating, and the appearance of, to lose, not win.

That being said, guys like McGwire have to be evaluated on the fact that their one stat that could be PED elevated is the only one that could get them into the hall. Sorry, but I don’t buy great walk rates as a driving HOF indicator.

Palmiero was a very good hitter to begin with. Before his big Texas seasons kicked in, he looked to be a steady .280/.350/.430 25-year-old with room to grow. Take away the power, and Palmiero probably stays healthier, and still hits 3000.

by TasteeFreeze on Jan 2, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions  

oh, sure. if you're the type who uses those counting stats, of course. and, because of those, without PEDs, the writers would be voting him in on the first or second ballot.

but i think one needs to adjust for era and ballparks. 500 home runs today aren’t what they were 30 years ago. and that 3000 hits is additionally suspect considering his suspension right after he achieved it. his OPS+ is very good but it’s probably about 150th all-time.

palmeiro didn’t have a really good peak. he was certainly aided by the higher offensive era and the ballparks he played in (even if you set aside any PED use on his part). he compiled some nice counting stats because of those things and his longevity. like i said, he’s a borderline guy. if you’re a bigger hall type, or the type who sees the number 3000 and automatically votes yes, he certainly gets in. i’m not so, for me, he doesn’t.

by larry on Jan 2, 2011 10:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm a bigger hall kind of guy

and we tend to forget that a large part of the game for us kids 40 years ago was watching the HR, batting and pitching leaders. The White Sox did not suck every 5 years, or so, and all we had was a Bill Melton HR leader, or Wilbur Wood IP leader on the next year’s baseball cards.

MLB certainly made a big deal about hits, batting average, rbi’s, and all, for 3/4 of a decade, so I still think they’re an integral part of box score watching until children don’t have to compute VORP at the ballpark on their calculators because it’s already displayed on the scoreboard.

by TasteeFreeze on Jan 2, 2011 10:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Palmeiro didn't have a really good peak.

He had about 10 of them in a row. We agree the numbers are tainted and he is not worthy of induction but to say his numbers aren’t hall worthy is just wrong.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 2, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

9 straight years of 38+ HRs?

1995-2003 (.285/.380/.556 )

If he didn’t have a good peak, it’s because he hit the snot out of the ball for 13 straight years. I suppose we’re saying the same thing, except that I think Palmiero and Sosa are HOFs.

by TasteeFreeze on Jan 2, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions  

yah i think sosa is too.

and bonds as well. all of these guys are going to have trouble though.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 2, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

why?

His career OPS+ 132. A direct comparsion of his peers. His highest in a year 159.
You want to argue counting stats, cool but absolutely not to the great peak.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 2, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

about 6 WAR is a really good season. i like to see about six seasons or so around or above that number. palmeiro isn't there.

he was a consistently above average player with a few great seasons. that’s fine if someone wants to put a player like in the hall of fame.

by larry on Jan 2, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Players like that regularly get in

If Don Sutton, or Tony Perez are HOFs, then that’s lowered the bar.

by TasteeFreeze on Jan 2, 2011 7:56 PM CST up reply actions  

i'm not particularly invested in whether someone is a hall of famer or not.

but a justification that someone else may have made a mistake so let’s just keep making the same mistake doesn’t seem real good.

in any event, perez is just a poor choice. palmeiro has a far better argument.

by larry on Jan 2, 2011 8:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't call it a mistake, though

even though Perez got in for being a Red, 400+ baseball writers decided he was a HOF, either for his numbers, or his “fame”. Sutton made it in for 300/3000, as that holds a special place.

If somebody wants to make the argument that a good half dozen plus players in the last half century got in for their baseball celebrity, then we could compute a better WAR, and truly put in the best players.

by TasteeFreeze on Jan 2, 2011 8:26 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

well said

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 2, 2011 8:41 PM CST up reply actions  

as i said, that's fine.

i’m not in charge of making sure the baseball hall of fame makes money. to do that, some thought should be given to the popular players. guys like andre dawson surely didn’t draw the crowds that, say, tony gwynn or cal ripken did. raffy is probably a poor example for this but a guy like jeff bagwell, who spent his entire career with one team, is probably not a guy one wants to be denying induction.

by larry on Jan 2, 2011 9:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I dunno. I'd say that within Chicago, Dawson was a decent enough part of turning Wrigley into what it is now.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Jan 2, 2011 9:37 PM CST up reply actions  

i'm referring to the crowds at the hall of fame.

perhaps there were other factors (bad economy, single inductee). but there surely weren’t all that many who showed up for him.

by larry on Jan 2, 2011 9:39 PM CST up reply actions  

this is what really matters.

currently, the writers – who, of course, have no financial stake in such things – are at cross-purposes with the hall of fame. have a few more years of this, where deserving but, more importantly, popular players are denied induction, and the millions that the hall is losing each year will only grow.

and i’d certainly consider going for thomas.

by larry on Jan 2, 2011 9:47 PM CST up reply actions  

how is the hall losing millions?

this is the first i’ve heard of this… do you have an article or something to share about it?

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 2, 2011 9:52 PM CST up reply actions  

i imagine it's losing money mostly because it's like any other tourist attraction in this economy.

getting the tourist’s buck is more competitive than ever. hall of fame weekend is obviously their premiere time. having bert blyleven head a class isn’t going to be drawing the tens of thousands.

i doubt i’ll find anything you wouldn’t in a google search. it’s been generally reported the last year or two.

by larry on Jan 2, 2011 10:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Cooperstown isn't something you happen upon

it’s out of the way, and you have to intentionally drive through winding, 2-lane farm roads to get there.

I have read, but am too lazy to look up, that Cubs’ inductions dump a ton of money on the town. They travel like Notre Dame.

by TasteeFreeze on Jan 3, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions  

It's an awesome drive

The way I go takes me over two 1 1/2 lane bridges, and you don’t see any Cooperstown signage until you’re three miles from the village.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 3, 2011 2:13 PM CST up reply actions  

i'll be there as well

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 2, 2011 10:03 PM CST up reply actions  

hell yes

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Jan 2, 2011 11:05 PM CST up reply actions  

That sure as hell is a road trip I'd take.

Hell, we should get a big ass RV. We could even make a reality show out of it. Seriously though, I think a big methup is gonna go down that day.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Jan 3, 2011 12:39 AM CST up reply actions  

If I'm still living here

None of you can stay with me. It’s a small apartment.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 3, 2011 12:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes, but we can still pee on your lawn.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Jan 3, 2011 12:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

But in terms of numbers, the whole WGN national broadcasting of the Cubs certainly had an impact on Dawson and his (and the Cubs) number drawing ability.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Jan 3, 2011 12:36 AM CST up reply actions  

i don't think larry walker was hall worthy coors field or not.

as far as palmeiro? Hes one dumb bastard. how can you get caught right after denying it? he is worse off than anyone except for maybe clemens on this whole steroid front in my opinion. he should have admitted he did it. to me, mcgwire should get in before he does.

You are right about the coke thing…. though people talk about it when referring to Parker and Raines. I don’t think they said much about it for molitor…. race thing? you decide.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 2, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

i'm tired of hearing people say this because it isn't true

and steroids were not against the rules when most of the guys of the era were using them

fay vincent memo, june 7, 1991:

The memo stated: “The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited … This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs … including steroids.”

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/steroid-era-timeline-text.htm

"when the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." ~~cantona

by BuehrleMan on Jan 2, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Okay, I admit I'm a blowhard asshole

I revert to my cocaine and spitball arguments.

by TasteeFreeze on Jan 2, 2011 7:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Palmeiro doesn't belong in the HOF because his numbers were aided.

To say his career numbers are not good enough is laughable.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 2, 2011 10:00 AM CST reply actions  

Rec'd.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Jan 2, 2011 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

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