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Telling (Not Asking) Chris Sale's Future

Under more usual circumstances, it wouldn't even be a question.  Chris Sale would shove off from what's sure to be a scintillating spring audition to Birmingham or Charlotte for a season-long tuning and tinkering in sportive dry dock so as to be a seaworthy starter by 2012.*  But as the PR department has forcefully informed us, this year is different: the Sox are ALL IN in 2011, to the tune of $120+M.  All hands on deck** and whatnot.

I'm not sure that having made this commitment to 2011 actually matters.  JR and Co. have topped that figure before just once, in 2008, and even that precipitated a substantial sell off to the lower salary levels in '09 and '10.  It's possible something similar is coming up in 2012, as Mark Buehrle, Edwin Jackson and Matt Thornton will see their contracts expire and replacing or re-signing them figures to be an expensive proposition.  8-10 wins on the open market could go in the $40-50M range, which makes the Sox very likely to get creative rather than take that big hit.  IOW, Sale either needs to be ready for 2012 or he'll be the next Dan Hudson/Aaron Poreda/Fautino De Los Santos/Gio Gonzalez.  If he can't be, that's probably an argument for putting him in the pen.  Why wait for no pay off?  On the other hand, if he's likely to pan out as a starter capable of replacing any of the starters' current production, letting him hone his craft makes more sense.  

Star-divide

So let's start with the scouting reports.  First up, Andy Seiler:

With a second dominating year in the rotation, he’s cemented himself as one of the top pitchers available, and he has upside as a number two starter. His fastball is a plus pitch that generally sits 91-94, touching 96, and he commands it with plus precision. He gets a lot of life on it due to his three-quarters release point, and it’s one of the best left-handed fastballs in this class. His best secondary pitch is a plus changeup with excellent depth and fade, and it’s a Major League-ready pitch. His third pitch is an average slider that isn’t commanded nearly as well, and there are concerns about his inability to spin a breaking ball.

Kevin Goldstein:

Sale is the rare pitcher who combines size (6-foot-6), velocity (up to 96 mph), and plus command from the left side. His changeup was among the best in the draft, and he consistently dominated week after week, including in his few starts against top-notch competition. [His] low three-quarters arm slot gives some scouts concern. It prevents him from being able to get around on his slider, and gives right-handed hitters a very long look at the ball.

The reports are mostly in agreement that Sale-as-college-starter got by with his fastball-change combo, both plus pitches, while his slider and curve were more show-me types, of which the slider was more advanced.  This more or less what we saw once the Praying Mantis (you heard it here first! probably!) got called up:

The obvious point of interest being that Sale went from a fastball/change to a fastball/slider.  Notably he threw the slider against RHB with the same frequency he threw them against LHB, with just 13 changeups thrown in total.  It looks like the slider was an obvious point of development for White Sox scouts as well; there's really no reason at all to throw that many sliders against RHB with a change in the arsenal.  Until we ask him, we won't know for sure, but that's the easy guess.

As for the quality of the stuff, the fastball came as advertised, or at least as you'd guess given the reports.  It averaged 96 mph and a lot more run than rise, which is less than optimal.  Compare Sale's fastball with Matt Thornton's, for instance.  Sale:

5192422009090120101003aaaffmovement_medium

Thornton: 

4078192010020120101003aaaffmovement_medium

Sale's fastball gets about half the rising movement and like three or four times the running action.  This has two major implications.  First, it means more groundballs, especially against LHB.  Sale isn't exactly Justin Masterson or Derek Lowe, but it's definitely on the sinker side of things.  Second, it means a bigger platoon split.  His fastball, even at lesser velocities, will continue to mow down lefties.  Righties will find much more in their favor and they'll likely be able to get some air under it.  In fact, Sale had a huge GB% split in 2010, with LHB putting almost 70% of their batted balls on the ground while against RHB he managed around 40%. 

Unsurprisingly, Sale's two HR allowed both came from right-handed bats, but the names, Drew Sutton and Scott Sizemore, suggest that RHB don't need incredible bat speed to get around on him.  Matt Thornton doesn't suffer to nearly the same degree and as a result, he throws his fastball some 80% of the time while getting whiffs at twice the major league mean, compared to Sale's more typical 65% and basically average whiff rate. To put it graphically:

Fa_platoon_08_medium

 

As for the slider, the results were excellent considering expectations.  RHB whiffed on it almost twice as much as LHB, who swung-and-missed at about league average.  That's very surprising given the scouting reports and I'm inclined to give those reports more weight given the sample.  100 pitches just isn't that many.  From the TV replays, I was impressed with his execution of the slider, especially against RHP.  His location was fairly consistent and when he missed, he missed away or down.  Nonetheless, I'd describe the pitch as slurvy; I'm guessing that 13 mph difference on the bender is a lot to handle when you're expecting a very good fastball/change combination from the scouting report.  Still, it bodes well and speaks to Sale's makeup that he was able to mix it up and move it around without losing feel.  He showed similar moxie with the fastball.

Going through Sale's repertoire with a fine comb made it clear that he's not going to be a great starter in 2011.  Think John Danks' in 2007.  Larry and U-God might think even that to be overshooting.  I think it holds.  Danks showed he was heady and possessed good stuff, but regularly caught too much or too little of the plate and hadn't fully developed his arsenal.  Sale would likely be 92-93 mph with the fastball, presumably with a good changeup and a mediocre slider with likely struggles against batters from both sides of the plate.  Against RHB, his arm slot and fastball movement would be exposed at lower velocities that would only be compensated for with good command of both the fastball and the change.  LHB would of course be an easier proposition thanks to a groundball machine for a heater, but even there it's easy to imagine the somewhat slower fastball inducing fewer whiffs on the slider, especially if it too slows a tick.

Getting to work full-time on those issues is likely to pay dividends I'd guess.  Watching Sale closely, you see his feel for his mechanics (weird though they are).  You can see why his command was well regarded by scouts.  He's got a clear idea of how to pitch, even to big leaguers, and repetitions are key to closing off his few holes.  Taking him out of the pen is probably a 1 win or so hit that could be made up depending on how he does in Peavy's possible absence.  Gus put the over/under on Jake's games started at 16 and I thought that sounded about right.  That means we need another 15 or so starts from somebody.  If the alternative is Tony Pena with Sale in the pen, it might as well be Sale starting***. Danks in 2007 needed 26 starts to get to a win's worth of production.  If Sale gets Peavy's leftovers, the difference between what he'd do in the pen and his production as a starter is almost nothing, even for a team that's ALL IN.

 

 

 

*Quota for forced nautical homophonic metonymies issuing from "Sale" reached.

**Well, just the one more, apparently.

***There's a decent case to be made that suppressing Sale's service time is more valuable than Tony Pena starting and Gregory Infante taking Sale's work in the pen.

Comment 160 comments  |  9 recs  | 

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Very nice work.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 18, 2011 12:06 AM CST reply actions  

nice job.

I still think Sale should be in the bullpen this year- but you made me think about it.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 18, 2011 12:12 AM CST reply actions  

ok I changed my mind again

put him in AAA

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Jan 18, 2011 12:51 AM CST reply actions  

nice graphical presentation

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jan 18, 2011 3:44 AM CST reply actions  

Thank you.

Beware the cure isn't worse than the disease

by Chiburb on Jan 18, 2011 4:15 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

i think 2007 danks is a damn good comparison

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 6:25 AM CST reply actions  

I'd take that in a heartbeat.

07 1st half danks was pretty good.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 8:05 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Until he hit the wall in the 2nd half.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 8:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Thus the emphasis on 1st half.

In theory we’d need him for less than a half worth of starts.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 8:51 AM CST up reply actions  

This is great.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 8:02 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

Good job, colin.

It makes the Ohman acquisition more sensible when you lay out the facts.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 8:04 AM CST reply actions  

solid work as usual!

Hope he’s not writing the 2011 White Sox Anal too. -Sox Machine

by Jack M on Jan 18, 2011 8:22 AM CST reply actions  

Good Lord colin, well done.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jan 18, 2011 9:06 AM CST reply actions  

Excellent article.

A very worthy and well-informed read. It reinforces my belief that Sale should start until Peavy is ready, then hone his game in AAA until September.

by marv3mania on Jan 18, 2011 9:29 AM CST reply actions  

Great work!

One thing that I don’t understand is the third set of graphs; I expected to see whiff rates against RHB for Sale and Thornton and got Run Values for three different pitches based on batter and pitcher handedness.

Would Sale’s fastball be considered a Two-Seamer, given the rise and run you mentioned, vs. Thornton’s Four-Seamer?

Do either of them throw a cutter?

Thanks!

It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT

by rhythm on Jan 18, 2011 9:51 AM CST reply actions  

yeah the idea was to show how Sale's fastball isn't as good as MT's

even though the velo is the same as Thornton’s. Two seam means more run than rise, four means the opposite. Two seamers have big platoon splits and rather than getting whiffs you get groundballs from same side batters. This in turn means you need a good change-up to neutralize opposite handed batters who are keyed in to the fastball.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 18, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Hmm...

If I understand correctly, I should focus on the RHB/LHP run value spread in the Four-Seam and Two-Seam graphs for league average representations of the differing run values for those two pitches. These differing run values should correlate to Thornton’s (four-seam) and Sale’s (two-seam) fastballs.

If that’s the case, I get it.

It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT

by rhythm on Jan 18, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions  

And it begins.

Will they knock them all out this week? Or another at Danks for a long term deal?

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Well

According to Heyman, Danks will be getting $6M

http://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman/status/27430478394957824

by Tavarin on Jan 18, 2011 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Steve Carlton did ok for himself with fastball/slider

He was also 3/4 slot, but not as low as Sale

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 11:32 AM CST reply actions  

mindful of Size Pete

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Randy Johnson also

I say put him in the minors and develop that slider some more. Fastball/change to the RHBs and Fastball/slider to the LHBs he’ll be awfully difficult to hit

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

He's got much better command than RJ ever had at his age

Hard to talk baseball when I’m fending off hall monitors with my other arm

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

It is

Like being in Mayberry with a bunch of Barney Fife’s running around. But I’m sure you’ll delete this post because it’s not up to standards.

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd hate to see how you would act

if someone was really hard on you. I asked you to be mindful of the image size. That’s it. Get a grip man. Larry posted the new rules below and a link to how to format appropriately. Nobody else is bitching about this but for some reason your almighty post is beyond reproach.

And Barney Fife could never rock a hat as well as I.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Look at how you react when I tell you to relax

Hate to see what you do if I really unloaded.

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah I love being called a hall monitor, Barney Fife

and compared to the Gestapo. I’m sorry you feel we should relax the standards for you.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

CP, please save your salvos for me.

I am used to them.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 3:17 PM CST up reply actions  

one bullet wu

"When people call me a homer, that's the biggest compliment that can be made." - Hawk Harrelson

by e-gus on Jan 18, 2011 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

No, Tdogg is Barney

WU is Goober

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Ahhhhhhh Snap!

WU has been served. You didn’t even get Gomer-respect.

by joewho112 on Jan 18, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

"Judy Judy Judy!"

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions  

That's Cary Grant.

Keep your “diverse” celebs straight.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Whosh.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

RJ was also throwing 95+ as a starter at his age

i don’t think Sale will ever sit at 95. i think once he gets settled into his career we’ll see more 93-94.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 18, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Well the good news is at least Sale's has a lot better control

than early RJ. He didn’t bust the 2.0 ratio of K/BB until he was 29

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

ha, really?

damn. i have to say i always begrudged the Unit. he was just too good. pure brute force. Pedro at least seemed to love seeing how perfectly he could place that backdoor curve.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 18, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

lol. I remember the

George Bell for Randy Johnson rumors involving the White Sox. Anybody else?

Pedro’s 2000 year was perhaps the greatest pitching year I ever witnessed.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 1:20 PM CST up reply actions  

no doubt.

Pedro at his peak is where they got the idea for And 1 mixtapes.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 18, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

oh

i am very fond of this commercial

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jan 18, 2011 1:39 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

i remember the print ads for that game

a graveyard full of bats with helmets on them. said something to the effect of “sooner or later pedro comes for us all”

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 1:48 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Gibson in 68 was awesome too.

Koufax and Guidry are up there with Pedro’s too.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 18, 2011 7:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I said that I saw old man

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 7:29 PM CST up reply actions  

that and only gibson's comes close

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 7:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Close but that's it

Again he was freaking ridiculous 8.88 k/bb ratio for the season
1.74 era in the middle of the steroid era (avg era for AL 4.92!)
wow wow wow

Gibson’s year 4.32 k/bb
his 1.12 era vs the league avg of 2.99

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 8:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm a giant cynic, i know, but that his year was so spectacular

in the midst of the steriod era makes me weary of just trusting Pedro to be clean.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jan 20, 2011 9:23 AM CST up reply actions  

ok, sonny boy.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 18, 2011 8:27 PM CST up reply actions  

i may not have actually seen the other ones

but i can read the numbers that exist. pedro had three seasons better than guidry’s best.

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 8:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Fuck you people. Hoss Radbourn, hands down:

But for sheer relative dominance over an extended cycle of innings pitched, my vote goes to Charlie “Old Hoss” Radbourn, who carried the 1884 Providence Grays on the back of his microscopic ERA of 1.16, when the league average was 2.98 – exactly what it was in 1968. Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson might have been better in single seasons, but Old Hoss pitched twice the number of innings that the Big Train and Matty put up.

http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Greats/pitching-seasons.htm

(678 innings. SIX HUNDRED SEVENTY EIGHT INNINGS! I don’t care if they were underhand.)

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 8:59 PM CST up reply actions  

how many IP did Pedro throw in those seasons?

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Jan 19, 2011 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

here we go, in descending order of greatness

2000: 217 IP
1999: 213.1 IP
1997: 241.1 IP

in guidry’s best season, he had 273.2 IP.

and struck out 36, 65, and 57 less hitters than pedro did in each of those years respectively.

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 19, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

guidry prefigures danks more than anything

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Jan 19, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah

guidry had a great year that year, no doubt. but it doesn’t even come close to pedro’s 2000.

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 19, 2011 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Sale is 6'6"

Carlton was 6’4", RJ 6’10"

Part of the intimidation was being that big and throwing that hard. By the time they’re done striding it looks like they’re 20’ from home plate. Not a pleasant sight for a LHB, especially if he’s starting that slider coming right at you. Let’s hope he stays healthy, he’s got that kind of dominating stuff.

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

He does out of the pen

I think his ceiling right now is Jon Lester without the cutter.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 18, 2011 2:02 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

isn't don cooper his pitching coach?

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jan 18, 2011 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

A cutter is a slider thrown up and in

and the jury’s out on Sale’s future slider.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 18, 2011 2:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I just hope they don't mess him up

He’s got a lot more long term value as a starter than a reliever. But when you’re all in, that probably goes out the window when you hit a losing streak in July and fall to 2nd place. The Yankees really screwed up Joba by yanking him around from starter to reliever, but their bullpen was so bad they didn’t have much of a choice.

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions  

ah, sorry

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jan 18, 2011 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

ah, sorry

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jan 18, 2011 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

is everyone in the gestapo here now?

relax, jeez

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

I am relaxed

I couldn’t ask any freaking nicer. Next time I’ll just be an ass.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm not going to spend half an hour searching how to resize images

Maybe you have the time, I don’t. If you don’t like it banish me.

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

next time just post each image in it's own post

no extra coding, no one yelling at you about image size. everyone wins!

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I've got an idea

Since you’ve got this down pat maybe you can follow me around and resize them if you think it’s too big.

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

go ahead

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

What am i missing Pete?

With all this effort you could have added height =400 10 times by now. Seriously what’s the issue? You want to egg on a banning over something like this? I’m confused.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 1:59 PM CST up reply actions  

He's the one throwing out the "banning" crap

Which is ironic since it was mostly his nonsense with the retard photos and the Jap WWII posters and the Oreo cracks on you that led to all the changes in the first place. Sorry, I preferred it as it was before.

I inadvertently post an image 5% too big juxtaposing our stud prospect to two future Hall of Famers. Big fucking deal – write up my citation.

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Well if your real problem

is you want things back the way they were its not happening. As I said I reminded you nicely considering that maybe you just forgot. You seem to have taken this as an opportunity to turn it into a much larger issue than it really is or should have ever become. My job is to moderate pure and simple. We have rules and I will try to enforce them. Nobody wants to ban or pick on you.

Now lets try and stop shitting on Colin’s excellent thread.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

noooo!

dont waste that sig!

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Jan 18, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

yesssss!

that’s now my perma-sig baby

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 18, 2011 3:18 PM CST up reply actions  

In accordance with Godwin's Law, ChicagoPete loses this argument

Also, for future reference, how should one request that images be appropriately size?

by joewho112 on Jan 18, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey

I could have escalated and said, “a jack-booted Barney Fife”. But I didn’t did I? That’s called restraint.

"You could see Dunn's home run from Russia!"
by blackoutsox on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST

by ChicagoPete on Jan 19, 2011 6:44 AM CST up reply actions  

According to Rosenthal's Twitter

Quentin signed 5.05m, Capps 7.15m
http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal

More arb signings: Mike Adams w #Padres, $2.535M, Carlos Quentin w #WhiteSox, $5.05M, Prado w Braves, $3.1M, Hardy w #Orioles, $5.85M #MLB

.More arb signings: A. Sanchez w Marlins: $3.7M, Michael Bourn w Astros $4.4M, Capps w Twins $7.150. #MLB

Hope he’s not writing the 2011 White Sox Anal too. -Sox Machine

by Jack M on Jan 18, 2011 12:59 PM CST reply actions  

Yikes almost

20 million between Nathan and Capps.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Jeez Pap got 12 million

Bobby would have cost what?

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

nailed Quentin's arb figure too.

never doubt me, suckas.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Jan 18, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

if I wasn't impressed before, I am now

Hope he’s not writing the 2011 White Sox Anal too. -Sox Machine

by Jack M on Jan 18, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Also, according to Reifert
White Sox agree to terms with LHP John Danks, RHP Tony Pena and OF Carlos Quentin, avoiding arb. Claim RHP Phil Humber off waivers frm A’s.

http://twitter.com/InsideTheSox/status/27445046206795776

by PaulieK14 on Jan 18, 2011 1:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Here are the figures
White Sox avoid arbitration with 1-year deals for John Danks, Carlos Quentin and Tony Pena. Danks gets $6M, Quentin $5.05M and Pena $1.6M.

http://twitter.com/ChrisDeLuca/status/27446798251462656

by PaulieK14 on Jan 18, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

wasn't he part of the unimpressive santana haul for the twins?

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

i think so

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jan 18, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Counterpoint:

Sale is awesome and we should just let him win us the world series

"Sportsmanship is just loser talk for losing."

by boyonthedock on Jan 18, 2011 1:49 PM CST reply actions  

gil meche retired

a nice and classy move

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 3:11 PM CST reply actions  

He had a nice run with them.

Set for life, he is.

PS Zach Grienke just moved a half mile from my home. What should I burn onto his lawn?

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 3:19 PM CST up reply actions  

rollin lika big shot eh?

2011 WhiteSox Baseball: we're all in

by OznCoop on Jan 18, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

That 1/2 mile is a LONG 1/2 mile in terms of net worth, believe me.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

i'm sure there are plenty of gates between you and him, as well.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Jan 18, 2011 10:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Surprisingly, no.

Which bodes well for the kid.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 19, 2011 6:49 AM CST up reply actions  

"Thanks for leaving the division"?

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Who's Yo Daddy?

.500/.541/.735 lifetime

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Jan 18, 2011 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

you're being watched

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 18, 2011 7:14 PM CST up reply actions  

ala barry sanders

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Jan 18, 2011 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

no thats Brett Favre

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Jan 18, 2011 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Except the opposite.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Jan 18, 2011 5:52 PM CST up reply actions  

except that meche didn't try to keep the money

unlike sanders

Sanders’ retirement came somewhat unexpectedly and was a matter of controversy. Two years beforehand, Sanders had renewed his contract with the Lions for $35.4 million over six years with an $11 million signing bonus. When he retired with several years left on his contract, the Lions demanded that he return $7.3 million of the bonus.8 Sanders refused, and the Lions sued and eventually won a judgment against him. On February 15, 2000, arbitrator Sam Kagel ruled that Sanders was in default of his bonus agreement and owed $5.5 million plus interest over the next three years.9

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 5:45 PM CST up reply actions  

stupid blockquotes
Sanders’ retirement came somewhat unexpectedly and was a matter of controversy. Two years beforehand, Sanders had renewed his contract with the Lions for $35.4 million over six years with an $11 million signing bonus. When he retired with several years left on his contract, the Lions demanded that he return $7.3 million of the bonus.8 Sanders refused, and the Lions sued and eventually won a judgment against him. On February 15, 2000, arbitrator Sam Kagel ruled that Sanders was in default of his bonus agreement and owed $5.5 million plus interest over the next three years.9

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 18, 2011 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

***

I hadn’t thought about delaying his arb. clock at all. How much service time to they need to limit him to in order to stall the arb. clock? Anyone know off hand?

Great article Colin.

"When people call me a homer, that's the biggest compliment that can be made." - Hawk Harrelson

by e-gus on Jan 18, 2011 3:31 PM CST reply actions  

Sale earned about 60 days of service time last season.

And the Super-Two cutoff is about 2 years, 130 days of service. So to delay arbitration by one year, we would have to limit him to about 60 days of service again next season to be confident he wouldn’t end up as a Super-Two.

by 3E8 on Jan 18, 2011 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

of course if we're all in,

that shit doesn’t matter.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 18, 2011 7:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I admire your way of handling team’s affairs and making sure that we the readers are well informed on matters happening on the pitch. I did not know about the Sox’s likely market proceedings and happenings.

Why Michael Jordan Could Fly

by cartersally21 on Jan 18, 2011 7:45 PM CST reply actions  

well said

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Jan 18, 2011 8:28 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Don't forget to put in a subject line.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 9:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought that was only for pictures and the like

Out of curiosity, why does it matter for a plain old comment?

by joewho112 on Jan 19, 2011 9:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Ask the powers that be.

I just enforce the rules.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 19, 2011 9:52 AM CST up reply actions  

it is my preference however.

and that’s basically the same thing.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Jan 19, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

It is a "norm".

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 19, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Will Ohman and Jesse Crain are shrewd mofos:

We ran across three free-agent pitchers who signed deals this winter that will pay them between $10,000 and $25,000 if they’re chosen to start the All-Star Game. Now that sounds pretty standard, right?
Except the three pitchers in question are Will Ohman (White Sox), Jesse Crain (White Sox) and Takashi Saito (Brewers).
And what do those three have in common?
(A) They’re all RELIEF pitchers. And (B) none of them have ever started a single game in the big leagues — not ONE. See for yourself:
Ohman 392 appearances — 0 starts.
Crain 376 appearances — 0 starts.
Saito 292 appearances — 0 starts.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove10/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=6032779

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 8:54 PM CST reply actions  

Whosh.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 9:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice writeup!

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on Jan 18, 2011 9:06 PM CST reply actions  

Milton Bradley arrested.

http://twitter.com/gbakermariners/status/27548586203947008

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Tdogg, you still want him?

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 18, 2011 9:07 PM CST reply actions  

i'd rather have the devils autograph

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Jan 18, 2011 10:41 PM CST up reply actions  

so we have thornton, crain, santos, pena, and ohman for sure

assuming no sale – we can find the other 2 out of infante, carter, dolsi, cofield, kinney, lindsay, harrel cant we?

by ndsoxfan on Jan 19, 2011 1:03 AM CST reply actions  

the other two shouldn't matter much after your top spots

infante and let’s say dolsi since he’s been a big leaguer before.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Jan 19, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

do you think it should only be one spot to fill?

if our rotation lives up to the hype theres going to be several guys that never see the field

by ndsoxfan on Jan 19, 2011 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

The hype is rarely lived up to.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 19, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

ozzie would never go for it of course

but honestly who’s that other guy going to be? a late inning defensive replacement for quentin makes some sense i guess, but he’d have to be loads better than teahen to really be worth it…that’d be 150 innings of defense max right? i suppose they are high leverage, so that makes them matter somewhat more. but there really isn’t a ton of gain there.

personally, i like having guys who can work multiple innings after disaster starts a la DJ Carrasco. keeps innings off your million dollar arms and you still get a lot of the gains from throwing relatively few pitches. sinker/slider guys always have a good chance against RH-heavy lineups. for LH-heavy, maybe get your guy with the big fastball and lesser secondary pitches? so Torres and Infante as bullpenners 6 and 7/

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Jan 19, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

i'd think you could attribute

the good health of our starters over the years to the likes of carrasco. he was contributing WAR we didn’t even know about.

by craigws on Jan 19, 2011 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

This was one of the best post ever on this site. If you don’t already have a job utilizing these skills , you should colintj. Well done.

by pcave45 on Jan 19, 2011 7:29 PM CST reply actions  

OK, I'll bite.

Welcome to the site. colin loves compliments because they are so rarely received from someone other gthan himself. But for the love of God, please use a subject line.

And I await your next post – with perhaps a link to the fan club you guys are starting for colin. He is like Hansen and “Mmm – Bop”.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 19, 2011 7:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks to this fan post

I am now better at math, and might possibly be able to cure cancer. Colin for Jesus!

Hating Nick Boynton since 2010.

by AirTrafficAJ on Jan 19, 2011 11:15 PM CST up reply actions  

new management arrives and you've gotten arrogant as hell

try not to take it personally when other people get compliments

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Jan 19, 2011 11:23 PM CST up reply actions  

The old codger doesn't like all these new kids on his lawn, U-God.

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 20, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions  

colin deserves accolades.

The 2 posts I’m referencing are very, very similar in content.

And, no whoosh for me, PF.

Can you just send my ass to my house so I don’t have to carry it home?

by winningugly on Jan 20, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

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