Underneath the hood of the White Sox manager search
The Chicago White Sox's search for a new manager won't really take off until certain teams have been eliminated from the postseason, but a couple candidates have been defined for us, for better or for worse.
Dave Martinez's candidacy appears to be quite legitimate, as Dave Van Dyck made the trip to the Florida to ask Joe Maddon about Martinez's potential, and even asked some questions to Martinez himself. It's actual reporting based off non-anonymous sources during rumor season! Celebrate!
Going in the other direction is Terry Francona, whose dismissal from the Boston Red Sox triggered the notion that the White Sox might and/or should snap him up. While it makes some sense, Ken Rosenthal said Francona wasn't on the list, and it makes sense when considering past managerial searches.
In fact, Martinez and Francona are archetypes for the winners and their runner up during the last two White Sox skipper searches. Ozzie Guillen (third-base coach) and Jerry Manuel (bench coach) both served on a Florida Marlins championship team, and they both beat out a quiet, title-tested manager with two rings to his name -- not Francona, but Cito Gaston.
A lot of us aren't used to the White Sox searching for a manager. The Sox have employed just two of them over the last 14 years, and you'd have to look before World War II to find the only other time the Sox had such stability at the helm. Jimmy Dykes managed 11 1/2 seasons, and you can combine him with one of two 2 1/2-year managers -- Lew Fonseca before him, or Ted Lyons afterward.
When looking back at the last two searches, one thing becomes clear -- there aren't many standout managers. I went through newspaper archives to see the candidates that Guillen and Manuel beat out, and it's a pretty uninspiring bunch.
There are some obvious disclaimers -- manager searches aren't nearly as transparent and widely reported as free agency, and Manuel's took place before the Internet was the first place to look. Ron Schueler's reign had a cloak-and-dagger element to it, which didn't help matters.
Caveats aside, here's what I found:
2003 managerial search
Winner: Ozzie Guillen
Other finalist: Cito Gaston
Other names: Buddy Bell, Terry Francona, Willie Randolph, Mike Hargrove, Wally Backman, Sam Perlozzo.
Some regrets? Francona led the Red Sox to their first title in 86 years in 2004. You might have heard something about it. But Guillen did well for himself when it came to drought-busting, too, and beat Francona's team in the ALDS the following season. While Francona won two titles to Guillen's one, they both managed their respective Sox for eight years, and both left under extremely disappointing circumstances. Francona just handled his departure with a little more grace.
Definitely no regrets: Backman was hired briefly by the Arizona Diamondbacks, until they did background check and discovered his two arrests. They then fired him four days later, and Backman hasn't proved to be a beacon of stability since.
Eventual managers: Gaston came back to manage the Blue Jays in the middle of the 2008 season, and then retired after the 2010 season with a winning record in his second stint (211-201).
*Willie Randolph managed the Mets to an NL East title in 2006, but a collapse in 2007 jeopardized his standing. He was fired and replaced by Manuel midway through 2009.
*Mike Hargrove found a job with the Seattle Mariners in 2005, where he suffered through two losing seasons, then mysteriously quit when the Mariners were 45-33 in 2007.
*Sam Perlozzo was one of many victims of the Baltimore Orioles' organization-wide issues, with two partial seasons sandwiching one full year in 2006.
*Buddy Bell managed the Kansas City Royals through 2 1/2 hapless seasons, stepping down after 2007. While he had nothing to work with, closer observers like Joe Posnanski said he didn't help matters.
1997 managerial search
Winner: Jerry Manuel.
Other finalists: Randolph, Bucky Dent, Larry Parrish, Jerry Royster.
Other names: Gaston, Davey Johnson, Alan Trammell, Chris Chambliss, Carlton Fisk, Tim Johnson, Rene Lachemann, Mike Scioscia.
Some regrets? Scioscia turned out to be a fine hire for the Anaheim Angels, but he didn't get that job until two seasons later.
Definitely no regrets: The Blue Jays hired Tim Johnson before Schueler got a chance to interview him, but he only lasted one year on the job. It turns out he had lied about seeing combat action in Vietnam, which had been a big part of his identity as a leader. It came out at the start of spring training, and after an initial voicing of support from the club, he didn't survive the preseason, and he hasn't managed since.
Other eventual managers: Larry Parrish managed the Tigers for 1 1/2 losing seasons, then was replaced by Phil Garner after the 1999 season.
*Alan Trammell took the reins of the Tigers after 2002, and his first club lost 119 games. When Guillen was hired the following season, Trammell was a popular example of why hiring a popular former shortstop to manage the club might not work.
*Davey Johnson has a winning track record, but he also seems to wear out his welcome in short order. He was fired from Los Angeles Dodgers in 2000 after two Octoberless seasons, and didn't resurface until taking over the Nationals as a midseason replacement this year. They got hot for him down the stretch, for what it's worth.

There are a few things to take away from this.
No. 1: I think the Sox can be trusted. Jerry Reinsdorf's GMs won the day with their last two hires, so whether Martinez gets the job, or Sandy Alomar Jr., Joe McEwing or Manager to be Named Later beats him out, Kenny Williams deserves some benefit of the doubt.
No. 2: First-time managers? No big deal. The last four White Sox managers to lead the White Sox to the postseason hadn't managed a big-league team before taking over the Sox. So while some might frame Reinsdorf as "thrifty" in this regard, he's probably being smart.
No. 3: Don't fret the also-rans. If the barrel o' names above is any indication, it seems the Sox aren't likely to miss out on somebody who is a clear cut above who they end up hiring.
No. 4: Managers do matter .. with the proper backing. Scioscia and Francona have enjoyed massive successes, but they were also in charge of deploying the talent born from a deep farm system and a front office with a steady hand.
That's the rub with Martinez. It's one thing to learn from Joe Maddon as he bucks convention and nurtures young talent. But the Rays accumulated their bevy of prospects thanks to a boatload of early-round picks, for reasons savvy (letting Type A free agents go) and not so much (a ton of last-place finishes before Maddon arrived).
The Sox haven't placed a high priority on the draft -- Williams prefers to let other teams fail with their key picks, and then try to salvage the busts. It's not an awful strategy, but it's not great for continuity.
With Scioscia, Francona and Maddon, they're extensions of the development plan. Those organizations essentially tell their draft picks, "This is the farm system you'll grow up in, and this is the manager you'll play for." The White Sox seem to struggle for the same homogeneity, because instead of instilling "Chicago tough" on their own terms, they're left to determine from afar players who might fit the mold.
So on one end of the spectrum, you'll get your Orlando Cabreras, whose ass was apparently the wrong shade of red. On the other, you'll get your Mark Kotsays, who are outstanding fits except for, you know, results. And either way, it ends up with Paul Konerko having to play assistant GM based on who is and isn't working in the clubhouse.
We can study the managerial candidates all we want, but that's the part of the job the new guy can't really help. In all likelihood, Williams will make a good hire, but he has to shore up the pipeline if he wants to make it a great one.
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Does anybody think Martinez is on the Red Sox list?
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 3, 2011 4:52 AM CDT reply actions
i checked the globe today to scan for his name, and he's doesn't appear to be on the radar
which would be surprising to me at least. i see that organization as very sabr friendly, farm friendly, and not averse to taking on a manager with little or no managerial experience, or with previous ‘success’ (e.g. tito).
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 3, 2011 6:42 AM CDT up reply actions
given that picture, my main concern now is an erroneous drone strike in the heart of Tampa.
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
by greenlight on Oct 3, 2011 7:42 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Given Your Scenario
The Owner, who is both low-key and arrogant, uses Kenny ‘The Brain’ Williams as his alter-ego (or the Sox own ‘Boy-Genius’). So, he seems to like mgrs who fit no real mold, as they have been all over the place. I don’t think there is a pattern, other than there isn’t one.
That said, and after Ozzie’s floundering and lack of good sense, they’re probably going for someone low-key. For some reason they tend to prefer Hispanic mgrs, and will more than likely select another. But, I’d hire Francona. He’s low key, proven and a solid baseball guy.
For some reason they tend to prefer Hispanic mgrs, and will more than likely select another.
They do?
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
The last two were and it seemed as if the serious final candidate all were. Nothing racial, just recalling the history.
Jerry Manuel is African-American.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
.

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 3, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Enjoy.
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/08/jerry-manuel-defines-class-respect-while-always-staying-the-cou/
Scroll down to “Humble Beginnings”. He’s African-American and Cherokee.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I bet they didn't even verify that Africa isn't part of Mexico
by joewho112 on Oct 3, 2011 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
someone screenshot a map
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
hmmmm
I’d like to delve into the thinking behind this…Manuel, SOUNDS like it could be a hispanic name but only if it pronounces ‘manwell’ and usually that is a hispanic person’s first name, not surname.
that hispanic dude had a hell of an afro

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 3, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I suspected.
It’s his clear love of Chalupas that gave it away.
by mechanical turk on Oct 3, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Cholly's middle name is Fuqua. (Seriously).
This doesn’t bode well for Ol’ Hariy Legs.
by mechanical turk on Oct 3, 2011 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Aint that a MuthaFuqua!
"His Load got Sloppy" Colintj
by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 3, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Jerry Manuel Noriega
after his imprisonment with the Mets, was extradited to France for trial and after servinf seven years in prison there will be extradited to Panama to face trial for human rights violations
But, can he hear the drums?
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 3, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
lol
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 3, 2011 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions
well, i guess with daniel hudson and edwin jackson both making it to the playoffs this year, you can call that trade a win-win.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Oct 3, 2011 10:50 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
can you name the last 30 white sox to hit 20 homers? i did. 100 percent.
http://www.sporcle.com/games/br_tremblay/whiresox30/results
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Get a goddamn job already, Ken.
I beg you. Before you turn into a big gelatinous head with short arms and fingers, ever typing.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
eh jobs are overrated. i am enjoying my time as Mr. Mom
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
dr phil time with the mother-in-law is going that well, huh?
glad to hear you gals are starting to get along.
I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.
by thatshortkid on Oct 3, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
He has no mouth, and he must scream?
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
hah oops. well at least you know i ain't lying about the 100 percent.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Just called the Hall library for the first round of player files, requesting:
Luke Appling
Johnny Mostil
Eddie Cicotte
Fielder Jones
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
Patience.
It’s a long winter.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
Then Pants Rowland should be in the on-deck circle, too.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
So needy.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
"I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU, OK!?!"
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
by U-God on Oct 3, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
s Ken Williams says "we're going to let the kids play," will know what they have in mid-season, young culture coming
Suck a lot and get high draft picks.
Tampa Bay North!
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
We have assets that can be traded for minor league assets if we are already throwing in the towel by saying the kids are going to play
Oh, he just means De Aza, Viciedo, Beckham, Morel and Flowers. What other kids we got?
Brandon Short, Saladino, Jo. Danks, Josh Phegley and
Mitchell/Thompson. “All-out.”
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
The .478-or-thereabouts-hitting Kevan Smith.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Oct 3, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like his plate discipline (0.93 BB/K) and power (.271 ISO).
Let’s hope they continue as he moves up in the system. Maybe he could be an in-house solution at 1B come 2014? He’s way too big to stay behind the plate.
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
Wouldn't a .271 ISO mean he slugged .749?
by mechanical turk on Oct 3, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Except that according to the numbers I see, he didn't actually hit .478.
It was a combined .355 in 203 ABs between Bristol and Great Falls.
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
Haven't we reached the point
Doesn’t this line of thinking kind of sell short Tampa’s scouts/development people? I always see it and it doesn’t seem quite right. Of course Longoria is probably a top 5 position guy if you are starting a franchise, and Price is a very good guy to front a staff. But, taking a look at that roster and their nucleus for the next few years
Hellickson-4th rounder
Jennings-10th rounder
Moore-8th rounder
Shields-16th rounder
Joyce-trade for Jackson
Zobrist-trade for Talbot
That is a ton of great mostly young talent that is in no way related to picking high. Plus even though they did pick Delmon that high, I don’t think many FO’s would be smart enough to wring all the value out of the pick as they did (Young for Garza/Bartlett then Garza for Lee and Archer). Rant over, and not directed at you (it just seems I keep running into the “they are only good because of all the high picks” thing).
by MelidoPerez on Oct 3, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
good point
I would think “Kansas City Northeast!” would more accurately reflect what WU is suggesting.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
KC has not won anything yet
despite numerous high picks. And I have frequently applauded Friedman and his draft and trading acumen. Lighten up, Melido.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
by winningugly on Oct 3, 2011 3:41 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
don't think he was being particularly heavy... he said his comment wasn't directed at you
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Youth Culture Killed My Blog.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
I'm used to bitching about the Sox so if we can just expect for them to be shitty, it might be nice
we can then revel in.500 ball if it so happens that way and then we can revel in draft busts too.
if you take that at face value
and with no moves to acquire anything major league ready from outside the organization, you get something like this
de aza LF
rios CF
viciedo RF
morel 3B
ramirez SS
beckham 2B
konerko 1B
AJ C
dunn DH
flowers C
lillibridge UT
escobar INF
jor. danks OF
danks
floyd
peavy
sale
humber
santos
thornton
crain
reed
ohman
stewart
infante
can rios not play center
the rest is a resigned meh
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
It all really depends on what Mark wants to do
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yankees make a big play for him, possibly even the Red Sox. Those clubs need pitching (especially Yankees) and can pay lots of money.
Mark would have to take a pay cut to stay here, however, I do not think the Sox are as poor as they are pretending to be. Jerry will spend the cash if he feels it will help.
nope. wires crossed in my memory with the cubs (who he did say he wouldn't play for).
i’d be surprised if he actively chose to go to the yankees though, given his buehrle-ness plus the 9/11 experience.
9/11 was awhile ago, time tends to make these things better
But I think he does enjoy being in the midwest. I really have no idea, if the price is right in NY he could suck it up for two more years.
he said that this year... he hates going to new york for that reason.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
good for him
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
ahh fair enough
I still think that being close to home and hunting/fishing spots are probably the most important to him. But if he wants to make lots of cash, chances are he is going to have to head to the east coast.
Which would cost slightly over $100M.
Or about $20M less than 2011. Sounds about right given the hit they took this year.
by 3E8 on Oct 3, 2011 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
yup.
and they could obviously whitte that down some more by trading, say, floyd and inserting stewart or something into the rotation and putting axelrod or something in the pen.
though, if the white sox do trade, i find it unlikely that they won't acquire major league talent.
what that would look like, of course, is a who knows.
Are you basing on that on KW's m.o.?
Because if we’re taking his words at face value, maybe he will truly turn over a new leaf and settle for just prospects .
"The Sox have a better home record than the Twins, but...we're not at home right now." -DJ
last time he did that
he acquired lillibridge, flowers, santos rodriguez and jon gilmore. i think KW should stick to his strengths.
well quentin will be traded then... so do we get anything decent for him?
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
This is almost identical to my quick offseason mockup,
except I had Buehrle in the rotation, Humber in the pen, and was undecided about Infante or Stewart. Wishful thinking, maybe.
by mechanical turk on Oct 3, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure, but less than I'd like to see Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, and Sale start.
And I don’t think Peavy is really negotiable.
by mechanical turk on Oct 3, 2011 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Can't imagine both Floyd and Danks being on the Sox in 2012.
Of course I’ve been wrong before…
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
I could live with that
though it would be nice to have Buerhle. Either way I expect the team to be competitive.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Also rather see
Rios in RF De Aza in CF and the tank in left.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Merkin tweet
Ken Williams today on Chris Sale in 2012: “"He’ll be moved to the rotation, or he will be given every opportunity in the rotation.”
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
Haven't Keith Law et al suggested that he might not have the same success in a starting role?
Obviously it’s still worthwhile to figure out for sure, but I’m wondering what the consensus is regarding his projected performance as a starter.
"The Sox have a better home record than the Twins, but...we're not at home right now." -DJ
I recall Law calling him a #3 with an outside chance of becoming a #2
Even that, while not as dominant, is far more valuable.
by WSO on Oct 3, 2011 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Think that was Goldstein.
Law was never high on Sale. Didn’t/Doesn’t see him as a starter.
Today:
eithlaw keithlaw
Yes. RT @maedwilson: White Sox moving Sale to the rotation. Increased injury risk or just skeptical on stuff holding up that many innings?
16 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
I really do enjoy KW having to address the media in the absence of a Guillen filter
This means someone in the rotation this year is getting traded if we end up signing Buehrle.
good point. i guess the 'hurrah!' is somewhat muted if it means buehrle won't be coming back,
which i am starting to suspect now with that comment plus the ’we’ll let the kids play’ talk.
woo hoo!
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

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