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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Underneath the hood of the White Sox manager search

The Chicago White Sox's search for a new manager won't really take off until certain teams have been eliminated from the postseason, but a couple candidates have been defined for us, for better or for worse.

Dave Martinez's candidacy appears to be quite legitimate, as Dave Van Dyck made the trip to the Florida to ask Joe Maddon about Martinez's potential, and even asked some questions to Martinez himself. It's actual reporting based off non-anonymous sources during rumor season! Celebrate!

Going in the other direction is Terry Francona, whose dismissal from the Boston Red Sox triggered the notion that the White Sox might and/or should snap him up. While it makes some sense, Ken Rosenthal said Francona wasn't on the list, and it makes sense when considering past managerial searches.

In fact, Martinez and Francona are archetypes for the winners and their runner up during the last two White Sox skipper searches. Ozzie Guillen (third-base coach) and Jerry Manuel (bench coach) both served on a Florida Marlins championship team, and they both beat out a quiet, title-tested manager with two rings to his name -- not Francona, but Cito Gaston.

A lot of us aren't used to the White Sox searching for a manager. The Sox have employed just two of them over the last 14 years, and you'd have to look before World War II to find the only other time the Sox had such stability at the helm. Jimmy Dykes managed 11 1/2 seasons, and you can combine him with one of two 2 1/2-year managers -- Lew Fonseca before him, or Ted Lyons afterward.

Star-divide

 

When looking back at the last two searches, one thing becomes clear -- there aren't many standout managers. I went through newspaper archives to see the candidates that Guillen and Manuel beat out, and it's a pretty uninspiring bunch.

There are some obvious disclaimers -- manager searches aren't nearly as transparent and widely reported as free agency, and Manuel's took place before the Internet was the first place to look. Ron Schueler's reign had a cloak-and-dagger element to it, which didn't help matters.

Caveats aside, here's what I found:

2003 managerial search

Winner: Ozzie Guillen

Other finalist: Cito Gaston

Other names: Buddy Bell, Terry Francona, Willie Randolph, Mike Hargrove, Wally Backman, Sam Perlozzo.

Some regrets? Francona led the Red Sox to their first title in 86 years in 2004. You might have heard something about it. But Guillen did well for himself when it came to drought-busting, too, and beat Francona's team in the ALDS the following season. While Francona won two titles to Guillen's one, they both managed their respective Sox for eight years, and both left under extremely disappointing circumstances. Francona just handled his departure with a little more grace.

Definitely no regrets: Backman was hired briefly by the Arizona Diamondbacks, until they did background check and discovered his two arrests. They then fired him four days later, and Backman hasn't proved to be a beacon of stability since.

Eventual managers: Gaston came back to manage the Blue Jays in the middle of the 2008 season, and then retired after the 2010 season with a winning record in his second stint (211-201). 

*Willie Randolph managed the Mets to an NL East title in 2006, but a collapse in 2007 jeopardized his standing. He was fired and replaced by Manuel midway through 2009.

*Mike Hargrove found a job with the Seattle Mariners in 2005, where he suffered through two losing seasons, then mysteriously quit when the Mariners were 45-33 in 2007.

*Sam Perlozzo was one of many victims of the Baltimore Orioles' organization-wide issues, with two partial seasons sandwiching one full year in 2006.

*Buddy Bell managed the Kansas City Royals through 2 1/2 hapless seasons, stepping down after 2007. While he had nothing to work with, closer observers like Joe Posnanski said he didn't help matters.

1997 managerial search

Winner: Jerry Manuel.

Other finalists: Randolph, Bucky Dent, Larry Parrish, Jerry Royster.

Other names: Gaston, Davey Johnson, Alan Trammell, Chris Chambliss, Carlton Fisk, Tim Johnson, Rene Lachemann, Mike Scioscia.

Some regrets? Scioscia turned out to be a fine hire for the Anaheim Angels, but he didn't get that job until two seasons later.

Definitely no regrets: The Blue Jays hired Tim Johnson before Schueler got a chance to interview him, but he only lasted one year on the job. It turns out he had lied about seeing combat action in Vietnam, which had been a big part of his identity as a leader. It came out at the start of spring training, and after an initial voicing of support from the club, he didn't survive the preseason, and he hasn't managed since.

Other eventual managers: Larry Parrish managed the Tigers for 1 1/2 losing seasons, then was replaced by Phil Garner after the 1999 season.

*Alan Trammell took the reins of the Tigers after 2002, and his first club lost 119 games. When Guillen was hired the following season, Trammell was a popular example of why hiring a popular former shortstop to manage the club might not work.

*Davey Johnson has a winning track record, but he also seems to wear out his welcome in short order. He was fired from Los Angeles Dodgers in 2000 after two Octoberless seasons, and didn't resurface until taking over the Nationals as a midseason replacement this year. They got hot for him down the stretch, for what it's worth.

Star-divide

There are a few things to take away from this.

No. 1: I think the Sox can be trusted. Jerry Reinsdorf's GMs won the day with their last two hires, so whether Martinez gets the job, or Sandy Alomar Jr., Joe McEwing or Manager to be Named Later beats him out, Kenny Williams deserves some benefit of the doubt.

No. 2: First-time managers? No big deal. The last four White Sox managers to lead the White Sox to the postseason hadn't managed a big-league team before taking over the Sox. So while some might frame Reinsdorf as "thrifty" in this regard, he's probably being smart.

No. 3: Don't fret the also-rans. If the barrel o' names above is any indication, it seems the Sox aren't likely to miss out on somebody who is a clear cut above who they end up hiring.

No. 4: Managers do matter .. with the proper backing. Scioscia and Francona have enjoyed massive successes, but they were also in charge of deploying the talent born from a deep farm system and a front office with a steady hand.

That's the rub with Martinez. It's one thing to learn from Joe Maddon as he bucks convention and nurtures young talent. But the Rays accumulated their bevy of prospects thanks to a boatload of early-round picks, for reasons savvy (letting Type A free agents go) and not so much (a ton of last-place finishes before Maddon arrived).

The Sox haven't placed a high priority on the draft -- Williams prefers to let other teams fail with their key picks, and then try to salvage the busts. It's not an awful strategy, but it's not great for continuity.

With Scioscia, Francona and Maddon, they're extensions of the development plan. Those organizations essentially tell their draft picks, "This is the farm system you'll grow up in, and this is the manager you'll play for." The White Sox seem to struggle for the same homogeneity, because instead of instilling "Chicago tough" on their own terms, they're left to determine from afar players who might fit the mold.

So on one end of the spectrum, you'll get your Orlando Cabreras, whose ass was apparently the wrong shade of red. On the other, you'll get your Mark Kotsays, who are outstanding fits except for, you know, results. And either way, it ends up with Paul Konerko having to play assistant GM based on who is and isn't working in the clubhouse.

We can study the managerial candidates all we want, but that's the part of the job the new guy can't really help. In all likelihood, Williams will make a good hire, but he has to shore up the pipeline if he wants to make it a great one.

Comment 108 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Does anybody think Martinez is on the Red Sox list?

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 3, 2011 4:52 AM CDT reply actions  

i checked the globe today to scan for his name, and he's doesn't appear to be on the radar

which would be surprising to me at least. i see that organization as very sabr friendly, farm friendly, and not averse to taking on a manager with little or no managerial experience, or with previous ‘success’ (e.g. tito).

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 3, 2011 6:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Given Your Scenario

The Owner, who is both low-key and arrogant, uses Kenny ‘The Brain’ Williams as his alter-ego (or the Sox own ‘Boy-Genius’). So, he seems to like mgrs who fit no real mold, as they have been all over the place. I don’t think there is a pattern, other than there isn’t one.

That said, and after Ozzie’s floundering and lack of good sense, they’re probably going for someone low-key. For some reason they tend to prefer Hispanic mgrs, and will more than likely select another. But, I’d hire Francona. He’s low key, proven and a solid baseball guy.

by Rugmaster D on Oct 3, 2011 9:00 AM CDT reply actions  

For some reason they tend to prefer Hispanic mgrs, and will more than likely select another.

They do?

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Oct 3, 2011 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

The last two were and it seemed as if the serious final candidate all were. Nothing racial, just recalling the history.

by Rugmaster D on Oct 3, 2011 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Jerry Manuel is African-American.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 3, 2011 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

.

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 3, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Enjoy.

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/08/jerry-manuel-defines-class-respect-while-always-staying-the-cou/

Scroll down to “Humble Beginnings”. He’s African-American and Cherokee.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 3, 2011 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Need screenshot for proof.

by Lorenzo Barcelo on Oct 3, 2011 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

holy crap

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 3, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

hmmmm

I’d like to delve into the thinking behind this…Manuel, SOUNDS like it could be a hispanic name but only if it pronounces ‘manwell’ and usually that is a hispanic person’s first name, not surname.

by Rhubarb on Oct 3, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

wow.

just found out charlie’s real name is fernando. wonder what dave’s is.

by larry on Oct 3, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Jerry Manuel Noriega

after his imprisonment with the Mets, was extradited to France for trial and after servinf seven years in prison there will be extradited to Panama to face trial for human rights violations

by Rhubarb on Oct 3, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

So good.

You magnificent beeyatch, you. ;)

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 3, 2011 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 3, 2011 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably Juan Carlos.

"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson

by mikecws91 on Oct 3, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Get a goddamn job already, Ken.

I beg you. Before you turn into a big gelatinous head with short arms and fingers, ever typing.

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 3, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

dr phil time with the mother-in-law is going that well, huh?

glad to hear you gals are starting to get along.

I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.

by thatshortkid on Oct 3, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

He has no mouth, and he must scream?

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 3, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just called the Hall library for the first round of player files, requesting:

Luke Appling
Johnny Mostil
Eddie Cicotte
Fielder Jones
Shoeless Joe Jackson

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Oct 3, 2011 12:43 PM CDT reply actions  

No Ray Schalk?

FJM.

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 3, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Patience.

It’s a long winter.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Oct 3, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

So needy.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 3, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

So seedy.

“She’s 13, asshole.” ;)

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 3, 2011 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Suck a lot and get high draft picks.

Tampa Bay North!

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 3, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Brandon Short, Saladino, Jo. Danks, Josh Phegley and

Mitchell/Thompson. “All-out.”

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 3, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

The .478-or-thereabouts-hitting Kevan Smith.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Oct 3, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I like his plate discipline (0.93 BB/K) and power (.271 ISO).

Let’s hope they continue as he moves up in the system. Maybe he could be an in-house solution at 1B come 2014? He’s way too big to stay behind the plate.

"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson

by mikecws91 on Oct 3, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Haven't we reached the point

Doesn’t this line of thinking kind of sell short Tampa’s scouts/development people? I always see it and it doesn’t seem quite right. Of course Longoria is probably a top 5 position guy if you are starting a franchise, and Price is a very good guy to front a staff. But, taking a look at that roster and their nucleus for the next few years
Hellickson-4th rounder
Jennings-10th rounder
Moore-8th rounder
Shields-16th rounder
Joyce-trade for Jackson
Zobrist-trade for Talbot
That is a ton of great mostly young talent that is in no way related to picking high. Plus even though they did pick Delmon that high, I don’t think many FO’s would be smart enough to wring all the value out of the pick as they did (Young for Garza/Bartlett then Garza for Lee and Archer). Rant over, and not directed at you (it just seems I keep running into the “they are only good because of all the high picks” thing).

by MelidoPerez on Oct 3, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

good point

I would think “Kansas City Northeast!” would more accurately reflect what WU is suggesting.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Oct 3, 2011 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

KC has not won anything yet

despite numerous high picks. And I have frequently applauded Friedman and his draft and trading acumen. Lighten up, Melido.

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 3, 2011 3:41 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Youth Culture Killed My Blog.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Oct 3, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm used to bitching about the Sox so if we can just expect for them to be shitty, it might be nice

we can then revel in.500 ball if it so happens that way and then we can revel in draft busts too.

by Rhubarb on Oct 3, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

if you take that at face value

and with no moves to acquire anything major league ready from outside the organization, you get something like this

de aza LF
rios CF
viciedo RF
morel 3B
ramirez SS
beckham 2B
konerko 1B
AJ C
dunn DH

flowers C
lillibridge UT
escobar INF
jor. danks OF

danks
floyd
peavy
sale
humber

santos
thornton
crain
reed
ohman
stewart
infante

by larry on Oct 3, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

can rios not play center

the rest is a resigned meh

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Oct 3, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

It all really depends on what Mark wants to do

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yankees make a big play for him, possibly even the Red Sox. Those clubs need pitching (especially Yankees) and can pay lots of money.

Mark would have to take a pay cut to stay here, however, I do not think the Sox are as poor as they are pretending to be. Jerry will spend the cash if he feels it will help.

by 815Sox on Oct 3, 2011 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

really?

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Oct 4, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

nope. wires crossed in my memory with the cubs (who he did say he wouldn't play for).

i’d be surprised if he actively chose to go to the yankees though, given his buehrle-ness plus the 9/11 experience.

by craigws on Oct 4, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

9/11 was awhile ago, time tends to make these things better

But I think he does enjoy being in the midwest. I really have no idea, if the price is right in NY he could suck it up for two more years.

by 815Sox on Oct 4, 2011 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

good for him

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Oct 5, 2011 1:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

ahh fair enough

I still think that being close to home and hunting/fishing spots are probably the most important to him. But if he wants to make lots of cash, chances are he is going to have to head to the east coast.

by 815Sox on Oct 5, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Which would cost slightly over $100M.

Or about $20M less than 2011. Sounds about right given the hit they took this year.

by 3E8 on Oct 3, 2011 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

yup.

and they could obviously whitte that down some more by trading, say, floyd and inserting stewart or something into the rotation and putting axelrod or something in the pen.

by larry on Oct 3, 2011 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you basing on that on KW's m.o.?

Because if we’re taking his words at face value, maybe he will truly turn over a new leaf and settle for just prospects .

"The Sox have a better home record than the Twins, but...we're not at home right now." -DJ

by Joist on Oct 3, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

last time he did that

he acquired lillibridge, flowers, santos rodriguez and jon gilmore. i think KW should stick to his strengths.

by larry on Oct 3, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is almost identical to my quick offseason mockup,

except I had Buehrle in the rotation, Humber in the pen, and was undecided about Infante or Stewart. Wishful thinking, maybe.

by mechanical turk on Oct 3, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I could live with that

though it would be nice to have Buerhle. Either way I expect the team to be competitive.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Oct 3, 2011 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also rather see

Rios in RF De Aza in CF and the tank in left.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Oct 3, 2011 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Merkin tweet
Ken Williams today on Chris Sale in 2012: “"He’ll be moved to the rotation, or he will be given every opportunity in the rotation.”

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Oct 3, 2011 4:12 PM CDT reply actions  

Haven't Keith Law et al suggested that he might not have the same success in a starting role?

Obviously it’s still worthwhile to figure out for sure, but I’m wondering what the consensus is regarding his projected performance as a starter.

"The Sox have a better home record than the Twins, but...we're not at home right now." -DJ

by Joist on Oct 3, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Think that was Goldstein.

Law was never high on Sale. Didn’t/Doesn’t see him as a starter.

Today:

eithlaw keithlaw
Yes. RT @maedwilson: White Sox moving Sale to the rotation. Increased injury risk or just skeptical on stuff holding up that many innings?
16 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

by DirtySox on Oct 3, 2011 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

woo hoo!

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Oct 3, 2011 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

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