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Around SBN: Now They've Screwed Spurs, UEFA Willing To Review Rule

The Kenny Williams (and Don Cooper and Herm Schneider) Decade

Back in August, I ranted that Kenny Williams has on average been failing to acquire assets at below-market prices and that in part was responsible for the utter failure of 2011.  And while I think we can all agree that's been true lately, a rant is not exactly the measured quantitative approach that in general I prefer.  So let's remedy that.

Tango ran a pretty neat post last Thursday that looked at the Moneyball (2002-2011) era.  The point was to identify the relationship over the course of the defined era of dollars spent on payroll to wins.  In case you weren't sure that money matters in baseball, it turns out that there is a very significant correlation between the two (r=.7):

Payrollwins_jpg_medium

Big surprise who ended up where, right?  But I don't see the White Sox anywhere.  And while what I should have done was ask Tango for his data so I could just plug and chug, I went to baseball-reference and pulled my own figures and ran roughly the same data to produce a similar graph.  I included 2001 and I took out 2011 because the payroll data for the most recent season wasn't updated when I checked.  I also put everything in terms of 2010 dollars.  The end result was basically the same graph, but a teensy bit smaller correlation.  So hooray, that checks out.

What I really wanted was the equation for the trend line.  That equation gives you the expected wins given your team's salary levels.  As in the Tango graph, the teams above the trend have found value in excess of the money they spent.  And the ones below suck oh so very hard.  Pretty straight forward way to judge a GM, right?  Sure there are caveats, but over the course of a decade it's a very reasonable metric.  So how have teams done over the KW Era?

Star-divide

 

 

So Kenny's the 10th best GM!  It's that easy, right?  Well, no.  For one, let's go year-by-year:

He's been worth +30 or so wins over the course of his career (that's good!), but -10 since 2006 (that's bad!).  And as I've mentioned numerous times, the Sox' primary competitive advantages are Herm and Coop.  How much credit do you want to give Kenny for not canning them?  Coop was promoted on Kenny's watch in 2002, but he's been with the Sox since 1988.  Between the two of them, I think they'd be in the neighborhood of 3-5 free wins.  It's hard to quantify precisely, but I think that's a good ballpark and I've used about that in the past.  Kenny's been about 3 wins above average for his career.  If he's an above average GM, it's probably not by much.  And he might not even be that.

Like I suggested in my rant, KW needs to get back to what he was doing early in his career, which largely centered around capitalizing on his competitive advantages and avoiding giant contracts.  He's done the opposite and they've basically crippled the team.  Now he's back in what has always seemed to be his comfort zone.  KW with his back against the wall managed to obtain John Danks, Carlos Quentin, Jim Thome, and Gavin Floyd without hurting the team or the bottom line.  KW given free reign resulted in two Nick Swisher trades, the pain of Scott Linebrink, and the waiver/free agent signings of Alex Rios and Adam Dunn.  You might also say that the Chairman has put Don Cooper and Herm Schneider back in charge.  And why not?  Their results are hard to argue with.

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nice work.

notice… st. louis is 3rd on the list. damn that larussa. he’s a terrible manager. ::rolls eyes::

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 4, 2011 2:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Psh.

Get me the triumvirate of Bob Geren, Ken Macha, and Art Howe!

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 4, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

LaRussa has Dave Duncan and Albert Pujols.

Chrissakes.

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 4, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

And enjoyed quite a bit of Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen for chunks of that as well.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 4, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right because they pay market or worse for everyone

that’s in part because their revenues are such that they can afford higher prices than most.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Oct 4, 2011 2:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Nice that we are talking about GM value

and you bring up the manager. Take your Ritalin.

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 4, 2011 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

take your viagra.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 4, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're missing the point of this article completely.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 4, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice work, colin.

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 4, 2011 2:28 PM CDT reply actions  

nice. thanks dude

"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112

by BoeJouma on Oct 4, 2011 2:38 PM CDT reply actions  

this is pretty awesome!

Easy chief
We’re a community - Tdogg

by Jack M on Oct 4, 2011 2:44 PM CDT reply actions  

for teams like MIN STL etc at the top

It would be interesting to identify “major bargain” players— guys who made very little $ and contributed significant WAR (or whatever the metric of choice) to their teams for more than 1 season. I wonder if such players account for the lion’s share of the benefit for their franchises?

Then, how did those teams get that benefit— draft, “prospect” trade, or perhaps via a “breakout season,” etc?

Nice analysis btw.

by ruffster on Oct 4, 2011 2:46 PM CDT reply actions  

Using only Albert Pujols from 2002-2008 gives you a bit of an idea how St. Louis did so well.

Over that period alone, Pujols was worth $204.3MM. He was paid $60.3MM.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 4, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

A similar quick and dirty with Mr. Mauer from 04-08?

Worth $80.1MM. Paid $11.1MM.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 4, 2011 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

per b-r:

Drafted by the St. Louis Cardinals in the 13th round of the 1999 amateur draft. He was 19 when drafted. I don’t know who in StL gets credit for that, but… wow.

by ruffster on Oct 4, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

This man.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=thompson_wright&id=2637763

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 4, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll bet LaRussa fired him

which reminds me. I’m going to keep a running tally in my sig on won and lost proposition pride/gentlemen bets around here. I bet the Cardinals win tonight, any takers?

by Rhubarb on Oct 4, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

your face takes it

"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112

by BoeJouma on Oct 4, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

ok joewho

Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 0 won - 0 lost

by Rhubarb on Oct 4, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

stop flattering rwshow

Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 0 won - 0 lost

by Rhubarb on Oct 4, 2011 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dream on, 2ha.

"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."

by RWShow on Oct 7, 2011 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

im with you on this one.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 4, 2011 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice call.

And you are no gentleman. ;)

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Oct 5, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Johan Santana from 03-07?

Worth $107MM. Paid $28.5.

All these figures have been from using fWAR by the way.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 4, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

thanks...

when I thought of the Twins I thought of Santana and Mauer. Mauer was a #1 pick as an 18 year old.

santana- Signed by the Houston Astros as an amateur free agent in 1995. That would make him 16 at the time? Hmmm. Trtades:

December 13, 1999: Drafted by the Florida Marlins from the Houston Astros in the 1999 rule 5 draft.
December 13, 1999: Traded by the Florida Marlins with cash to the Minnesota Twins for Jared Camp.

by ruffster on Oct 4, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's like that.

WU got his ass handed to him by the Shit Rooster, of all people! Priceless.
Chiburb is an assclown. A real life loser and internet bore.

Mick11's SBN profile.

by Chiburb on Oct 4, 2011 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Haha only mostly

I read your blog through my g-reader, so I skip the comments on a lot of posts. But I think I was pretty much just airheaded on this one, since it’s not like I’ve never seen you post your data before. I spent a while manually c/ping the data too since I definitely can’t code even a little.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Oct 4, 2011 3:28 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Er

That should say I’ve been skipping comments more or less since you guys updates your feed so I could use the reader to read it.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Oct 4, 2011 3:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Thank you.

WU got his ass handed to him by the Shit Rooster, of all people! Priceless.
Chiburb is an assclown. A real life loser and internet bore.

Mick11's SBN profile.

by Chiburb on Oct 4, 2011 3:12 PM CDT reply actions  

Great post ...

The last few years with KW have felt like the Sox have are behind at the Blackjack table and are chasing their losses with bad bets.

I politely withdraw my snarky comment based on lack of knowledge.

by Billy Charlesbois on Oct 4, 2011 3:13 PM CDT reply actions  

Hm.

I wonder what the overall picture would look like if all of those individual years were plotted along with their corresponding payrolls. Would be a packed graph as you’d also see more variation in the data.

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Oct 4, 2011 4:40 PM CDT reply actions  

yep

year to year correlation is about .4

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Oct 4, 2011 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know what would be REALLY nice?

A return of KW to his thrify ways WITH a real farm system. I know it’s a dream, but what a dream it is.

by polodude017 on Oct 4, 2011 4:44 PM CDT reply actions  

when did we have a real farm system?

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Oct 4, 2011 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

You see, it's all about speed.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 4, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

in the direction of the

…never mind

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Oct 4, 2011 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

ttj, ctj!

The policeman who jumps from a bridge to a plane is Detective John McClane, a.k.a. Bruce Willis. He’s just the star of the whole movie series and stuff, no big deal or anything. -Cruiser

by Uribe Down on Oct 5, 2011 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Mr. Wo?

Garcia should have been pinch hit for

Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 0 won - 0 lost

by Rhubarb on Oct 4, 2011 6:15 PM CDT reply actions  

i don't think so.

garcia was pitching well and didn’t have a lot of pitches. gotta leave him in there.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 4, 2011 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Related to KW'd reign...

What about the personnel structure— scouting, special assistants, coaches, etc.? Who’s he hired/fired besides guys at the ML level? Any significant “quits” at the lower levels? Any noteworthy initiatives taken advantage of or missed?

The only thing that jumps out to me is the guy (Wilder) who was prosecuted for stealing bonus $ from prospects. But I don’t know if Kenny hired that guy directly.

Is there any way to measure the performance of scouts and the rest of the org against other franchises? Do anything think-tank type groups “rate” the organizations at all?

by ruffster on Oct 4, 2011 7:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Duane Shaffer was fired after the 2006 draft.

Replaced by Doug Laumann.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Oct 4, 2011 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wilder was an up and coming baseball execurive and actually interviewed for the boston GM job in 2005

he was a friend and confidante of KW’s

Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 0 won - 0 lost

by Rhubarb on Oct 4, 2011 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is great colin

in layman terms, is this a ‘pythagorean’ evaluation for GM’s b/c your using $$ to determine expected wins?

i.e., instead of the traditional pythag expected wins that relies on runs scored, and commonly used to evaluate the manager (not general manager)..

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 4, 2011 9:03 PM CDT reply actions  

very interesting. thanks

though with contracts, the length of the rebuild cycle and outliers caused by players like Pujols, I wonder if 10 years is even enough of a timeframe. I might conclude KW is simply better suited to managing lower payrolls. But given that ultimately it is wins that matter, not wins over expected wins, the sweet spot for a gm is getting the most out of a relatively high payroll (i.e., Cardinals GM ultimately gets you somewhere, the A’s doesn’t).

by metasox on Oct 4, 2011 10:05 PM CDT reply actions  

i think the degree of correlation and the size of the effect pretty clearly establish good from bad

and the stats seem to more or less tell the story we’d expect them to with some surprises, which as i recall is the anecdotal Bill James standard for a good metric.

tango (or any trained statistician for that matter) would be better able to answer this, but given the size of the effect i believe you’d properly regress each team a little more than 30% to the mean given my numbers.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Oct 4, 2011 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

without thinking about it too much

the athletics are even more impressive than i thought. as mentioned above, unlike the twins or cardinals, they didn’t have an uberstar or two locked up. i mean, using fWAR, pujols was worth 80 WAR over that timeframe. carpenter was pretty valuable. twins obviously had mauer and santana. the athletics are led by eric chavez and mark ellis? eyeballing it, they seem to have a much deeper collection of players providing average to good value.

by larry on Oct 5, 2011 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

agree. a single great player can skew it so significantly. their lack of one makes it more impressive.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Oct 5, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

they had a pretty decent pitching staff with mulder, hudson and zito there.

what happens if you take away their accumulated WAR?
oh my god! hawk was right!

by craigws on Oct 5, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

yep

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 6, 2011 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is this the game thread?

White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.

by greenlight on Oct 4, 2011 10:41 PM CDT reply actions  

Ah, the Baltimore Orioles.

Forever 2-3 years away from contention. And stocking up on expensive hitters for when that day comes.

"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson

by mikecws91 on Oct 4, 2011 10:55 PM CDT reply actions  

I need some help

I’m not an advanced stat guy. 1st: what does “r” equal? 2nd how do you arrive at “expected wins” when it comes to $$?

This article is very interesting but I cannot wrap my head around it…I appreciate the help. I did Google BTW & all I could find was expected wins compared to runs scored/given up as they apply to a team’s performance.

A link would be great.

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

by lastof12 on Oct 5, 2011 8:36 AM CDT reply actions  

"r" is the correlation coefficient between two variables.

It is used in the equation for the line you see in that chart. Once you have that equation, you plug in X (payroll) to get Y (expected wins).

by 3E8 on Oct 5, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

ok thanks

didn’t see “r” on graph so that’s where I was confused. I do know of that Pythagoras guy…

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

by lastof12 on Oct 5, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm still not getting it.

the actual formula is what I’m seeking. Sorry, been 20+ years since I’ve done this kind of math. I’ll move on…

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

by lastof12 on Oct 5, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry, "r" isn't used for the equation you're looking for.

colin could provide the actual formula, or you could calculate the slope of the line above based on two points and estimate Y when X is zero. Then Y=slopeX + offset. tango provided a best fit line for a similar chart in his original thread: win% = payrollIndex x .084 + .416

by 3E8 on Oct 5, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

this reply in orginal post helped a bit
#17 Tangotiger (see all posts) 2011/09/29 (Thu) @ 14:56

Right, and the reason it doesn’t hold is that with 162 games, just about anything can happen. Wins is NOT a proxy for talent, if you only have 162 games.
 
When you have 1620 games, wins IS a proxy for talent.

(Well, it’s not "IS" and "IS NOT", but the more games you play, the more the talent leads to wins.)
 
However, regardless of number of seasons, service time is service time.

I’ve explained this in the past. The causative relationships are the following:
 talent + luck → wins
talent + service time + management → salary

So, when you run a correlation of wins to salary, you are not running a correlation of a cause-effect relationship!
 
The cause effect relationship is exactly what I have above.

Now, when you have 1620 games, the luck part starts to get dwarfed by the talent part, and so wins starts to become a proxy for talent.
 
In the second equation, the service time will remain regardless of number of games, because the Yanks are the Yanks and the Rays are the Rays.
 
That’s why you have to know what you are doing first, before you actually do it. Running a regression in the hands of an "expert" at regressions but amateur in baseball is a recipe for disaster.

However (beating a dead horse), I’m having difficulties correlating salary to expected wins; if I’m reading both Colin’s and tango’s posts correctly, the regression line is different for each.

I’m not trying to poo-pooh this post: it’s a great way to evaluate a GM. After all, you want to get the best “bang for your buck” in a business sense. I’m simply trying to understand how expected wins relate to salary.

I appreciate your help 3E8. I’m hoping to dig a little deeper. But, I’m quickly finding I lack the resources and, frankly, the time. Plus, the math that I’m finding with further research is making my head hurt.

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

by lastof12 on Oct 6, 2011 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Excellent mate.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Oct 5, 2011 3:24 PM CDT reply actions  

not even hoody?

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Oct 5, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

They become

Guy on a Buffalo?

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Oct 5, 2011 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

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