The unbearable blankness of Robin Ventura
by Jim Margalus on Oct 7, 2011 12:53 AM CDT
in Analysis
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PrintI think I can tell you what the hiring of Robin Ventura proves at this very moment.
I think it proves that Kenny Williams wanted to hire Ozzie Guillen's polar opposite. Ventura's known as a consummate professional, which means when he follows Guillen's act in the interview room, he will be a colossal bore. Think about it: We're negative-five days into Ventura's White Sox managerial career, and we already know he's better than Guillen at keeping a secret.
I think it proves that Don Cooper has the loftiest status of any pitching coach in baseball. The Sox signed him to an extension before the entire pool of candidates was open to them, and by hiring a manager who has never had to consider when to pull a pitcher, he's essentially an assistant coach until he teaches Ventura the ropes. Although he might use said ropes to hang Ventura, if Joe Cowley's conspiracy theory has any merit (I'd give it more credence if he didn't continually absolve Guillen of all blame, but we know on which side his bread is buttered).
As for what the hiring of Ventura will prove a year or four from now?
Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffftftftftftftftfttbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbt.
It could prove that experience is overrated, and then some.
The most important part of managing is gaining the respect of the clubhouse, and Ventura has effortlessly earned respect everywhere he goes. Living in New York, I can tell you that he's one of the few players held in high esteem by both Yankees and Mets fans.
I think this alone separates him from A.J. Hinch, the most recent out-of-nowhere coaching candidate who lost a clubhouse mutiny in Arizona in 2010, which also took down the GM who hired him. Not that Hinch wasn't respected while he played, but his saga reminded me of what Jim Bouton said about the problems with being the most intelligent player in the clubhouse. I'm not saying that Ventura isn't smart, but as a Hall of Very Good third baseman who became popular in the country's three biggest cities, I think he has more of a natural pull than a forgettable backup catcher.
It could prove that even a little experience is necessary.
Forget about managing or coaching -- the thing about Ventura is that he's never traveled with a team for five or six months in a non-playing capacity, and before he started working with Buddy Bell, he said he didn't have time to do full-time coaching at any level. Now he's responsible for helping turn around a team of uninspiring underachievers in a rather tough market.
If you told me all the elements of his hire but left Ventura's name out of it, I would place a small wager on Manager X not lasting a full first season (and I might even place a smaller amount on him not lasting until his official press conference). From what we know of Ventura, I think he's too dutiful to leave Williams twisting in the wind. Too bad he didn't hire somebody crazier, because it's a fascinating mix of volatile ingredients.
It could prove that the Sox sorely needed harmony, however they could find it.
It doesn't matter whether Williams or Ventura -- or hell, even Cooper -- is calling the shots, as long as somebody is acting when action is required. The rampant buck-passing dragged down the team over the last two years, and if the Sox had better communication and healthier respect between the GM and manager last season, they might have won six more games.
This simplified the chain of command considerably. Now Williams is clearly in charge, and the fingers will ultimately point in one direction. Let's hope he is ready for it.
It could prove the Sox are looking so far inward, they can't find their way out.
One of the primary reasons I wanted Dave Martinez (or what he represented) is that he came from a successful organization with different ideas. The White Sox are a stale franchise, and not just because they can't develop a new core of talent. Even a lot of their victories are unsatisfying, because their inability to cash in simple scoring opportunties made games closer than they had to be.
Martinez couldn't have turned the Sox into Tampa Bay North (With Money!) by himself, but hiring from the outside would have been an acknowledgement that THE WHITE SOX WAY isn't exactly something to be proud of, unless the definition is "Herm Schneider."
Instead, the Sox retreated further into their bunker, and maybe to an absurd extent. Williams is doubling down on the power of the pinstripes:
"We've seen first-hand when we brought Ozzie in what the passion of the organization and putting on the uniform again means," Williams said. "You see people throughout our organization who have been with our organization for a long time. I think there's real value there."
There's no point in taking this too seriously, because Williams isn't going to start talking about the real reason the 2005 White Sox won 110 games. This is an opportunity for marketing, and so he's going to go for your heart.
The problem is that family ties aren't a great selling point when the family resembles "The Royal Tenenbaums." Being a fan favorite shouldn't serve as the No. 1 pitch, but when the new manager has no experience aside from helping out a high school team, wearing the uniform and a general aura of "class" are all Williams has to draw from.
And that's all fans have to work with, too:
"Robin Ventura is back."
"Neat!"
"This makes no sense."
"Maybe I can get his autograph!"
His cred as a player and his professional reputation make him the safest of hires in one respect. His lack of any kind of track record makes him the riskiest possible hire in another. Williams isn't so much showcasing his balls as he's raising questions of a chemical imbalance.
In any event, Ventura's decision-making will live under a microscope during his first season as everybody tries to see if he knows what he's doing. That means some missteps will likely be blown out of proportion. Williams might have rid himself of one headache with the Guillen family's departure, but did hiring a complete greenhorn create a whole new migraine?
The hell if I know. The hell if Williams knows. The hell if anybody knows. The hell if anybody wants to know.
The Robin Ventura Era begins under a dense fog of questions and total mystery. Good luck figuring out how it will end.
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harmony, respect, stability/tradition
… all pluses. True, those alone don’t win ballgames. But neither do underachieving players.
Also fit’s KW’s pattern of hiring rookie mgrs too. Each of the last 2 managed to find his way into the playoffs.
Best case— another great move by Kenny. Vets step up and play like they are expected to, young guys get after it too.
Worst case- Robin loses the team somehow and it unravels from there.
I wonder what the first acid test will be— replacing a sloughing vet with a hungry rookie?
Do you really think I can get his autograph?
by Tom Fornelli on Oct 7, 2011 1:07 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Everybody gets one!
Except for KenWo and KenWo Jr. Which is sad.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Oct 7, 2011 1:23 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
that cowley article was interesting at first
then spun way out of control. someone could make a fortune selling him tinfoil hats.
NAOPOS
DON'T YOU GET IT!? ARE YOU BLIND?!
Cowley can see the duplicity. Especially when he wears his magic sunglasses.
What?! I ain't no Professor Pickles!
by 67WMAQ on Oct 7, 2011 4:32 AM CDT up reply actions 7 recs
I'll say this for Cowely, he's absolutely right about how rabbit-eared (his phrase) Cooper and Williams are.
It shows with how petulant Kenny is with the media (boycotting the Sun-Times and the Score) and with Cooper getting his panties in a bunch when Mulley/Hanley had the nerve to say (rightly), “Hey, um, why has Humber been bad for a few starts now?”
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Williams has answered and stepped up to the mike on several occasions
Cowley is a goof. I don’t blame him one iota for telling him to go to hell. Williams doesn’t duck the media.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
If you had an emotional near-basket-case running your operation
the rabbit ears would grow themselves.
by tommyjoepeters on Oct 7, 2011 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions
uh, what??
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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 7, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
the exponential douchness out of him is astounding.
heard him on the score last night actually called lawrence holmes “brah”.
jesus.
by obnoxious american on Oct 7, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
They play NCAA Football on PS3 together
he can call him brah because of it
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
Cowley plays as South Carolina.
Broiest QB in the game, brah.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Cocks, brah. It's hilarious.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Garcia's just like us man.
Booze and bitches, football comes third.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Holmes got extremely pissed when I sent him a text the day Ozzie was hired
I told him he didn’t have to play along with Cowleys bullshit anymore now that Ozzie was gone. He came back from the break talking about it. Read it, talked about how he was “on team white sox” blah blah blah.
embarassing, people using this "team" anything.
by obnoxious american on Oct 7, 2011 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Holmes did conveniently seem to forget that I wrote something like
“One of the best things about Ozzie leaving is no more Cowley articles”…. but I now see I was wrong. He is just going to keep writing about Ozzie.
greg couch didn't work out,
so they got their new mariotti. he’ll never stop writing dogshit.
by obnoxious american on Oct 7, 2011 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
on the hire
i like it now. Kenny is surrounded on all sides and pulled out the ‘shock’ card. probably the last one he had in his pocket. It’ll keep the criticisms off of him for now.
NAOPOS
People should not enjoy a baseball teams soap opera
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
Dear Christ, THIS.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions
You are kidding.
Read “The Bronx Zoo”. Go back and look at the 1970’s A’s. Baseball soap operas are a blast – generally if you are winning.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
"Generally if you are winning."
When do we get to that part of the equation?
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions
amen, to that WU
but when they’re losing it gives you the lure of the “I wonder what’s going to happen next” factor – just like a good tv show – like Breaking Bad.
"The game's out there and it's play or get played..."
by Air Raid Siren Stan on Oct 9, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Yet the Sox remain Bold and Beautiful.
Or Young and Restless, I can’t tell.
The policeman who jumps from a bridge to a plane is Detective John McClane, a.k.a. Bruce Willis. He’s just the star of the whole movie series and stuff, no big deal or anything. -Cruiser
Fake soap operas are so passe
Our society has advanced to things like Jersey Shore
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
Amen Jim, Amen
You addressed all my concerns with counters. I wondered what you and larry thought. All said i am forced into ventura’s corner. Its a bullshit hire, last time i’ll say it
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
by Rhubarb on Oct 7, 2011 1:19 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
You know what this team did to me?
i’m rooting for jim leylands team. #oppositionagainstsomethingineverthoughtiwouldoppose
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
I was glad they won yesterday
Made some really good money… Yankees hype pushed those odds up to insane levels. But now I do not really care who wins, both teams are kinda meh to me. I guess I like the Rangers a little more.
that's the second time you've said it's the last time you're going to say anything about it.
i don’t know why you seem to want to be so reticent about this. yeah, you’ve expressed your general opinion about it (which i share) but that doesn’t mean you have to stop thinking or making comments about it. it also doesn’t mean that you have to go on and on and on about it and continue to complain about it bitterly for months on end. or you could do that if you want. it’s a free country.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I was fucking hammered at this point of the night, thoroughly shitfaced
my bad
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
'The night' ?! Holy Moses, it's 8 am.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions
He's talking about the post from 1:19 this morning.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Yes, this is what I do
I get hammered, post on SSS at 1:20 because I hate, then wake up at 6:15.
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
How many times has Hawk said to beware of a guy who doesn't seem to do anything but look good in a uniform?
I can’t remember the argument now, perhaps because its logic leaped from lillypad to lillypad with a drunken croak and a wet thud, but from here it really does seem like that was the motivation behind this hire. That doesn’t mean Ventura won’t work any more than it means he will, but the more time passes the more it seems as though Kenny made this move less because he thought it would work and more because he hoped it wouldn’t fail.
My favorite part was when Jim set ventura apart from aj hinch
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
The move to retain Kenny Williams sent the Sox back years.
This, good or ill, is small change. Unless the guy above Ventura figures out what he hasn’t figured out the past four years, this team will be taking Octobers off for several years.
If the move to retain KW set the Sox back years then
so did the Ventura hiring because nobody else would have ever hired him.
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
This is my sig for all time
Too bad he didn’t hire somebody crazier, because it’s a fascinating mix of volatile ingredients.
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
i won't call the hiring a terrible one
but one that’s short-sighted
i’m kind of surprised and not surprised that cowley referred to cooper ‘judas’ and ‘fredo’…he appears to have one anonymous source – my guess that’s a sham and he’s still relying solely on guillen – but he’s burnt bridges with pretty much everyone else in the org
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by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 7, 2011 2:58 AM CDT reply actions
big frank won't be hitting coach on kenny's watch
“But I’m thinking initially, because we have history with some of our young players that have now come through and have performed well, we’ll probably stick with that,” Williams continued. "But Frank will undoubtedly be welcomed to add any advice he has and he’ll be part of the family because he is who he is and he’s got a lot to offer."
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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 7, 2011 3:01 AM CDT reply actions
i'd be down with frank as hitting coach
it can only be an improvement compared to walk, all things considered
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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 7, 2011 3:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Hard to say
I remember people saying that Ted Williams was a terrible hitting coach because he couldn’t explain what he was doing. It came too naturally to him so he couldn’t understand when somebody else couldn’t replicate it.
I wonder if Frank would have the same thing.
by Pumpkin McPastry on Oct 7, 2011 4:18 AM CDT up reply actions
The Science of Hitting
Maybe there’s a re-write there.
by Chris Pummer on Oct 7, 2011 9:04 AM CDT via iPhone app up reply actions
Ted Williams could talk hitting and obsessed about it
My impression was always that his limitations were impatience and capacity for being a dick. But if someone could get through that, there was a ton of knowledge to be gleaned. Tony Gwynn had a hell of a relationship with him and seemed to get a lot out of talking hitting with him.
Ted was actually a decent coach. Mattingly also talked with him, IIRC.
It was in management that he chafed at his minyans’ inability to replicate himself.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
But can we replicate him now with DNA from his frozen head?
"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)
Morel learned how to do that in September.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
also nice write-up by chris jaffe at THT
conclusions are largely similar
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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 7, 2011 5:45 AM CDT reply actions
This sucks!
That is all. Love Robin Ventura, but damn dude! Really?
"80 percent of this thread is rangerjae's sig". -Jim Margulus 6/16/11
Follow me on twitter @michaelcaserno and read my blog, it sucks but its fun
He's such a blank slate that it's hard to form anything but opinions and express shock at this point.
So in no particular order…
Experience:
The most overrated of qualities. Ozzie was the Jeff Cox of the Marlins and was hired by Kenny. Worked out pretty well, especially with Coop and Herm around.
Leadership, etc.:
Meh. Will he sac bunt in the first inning? Fall in love with the SB attempt? Play a lineup strictly by handedness? Concede a series sweep in order to play 4 scrubs at a time?
Until we know those answers, it’s all about opining.
Fan Favorite:
What’s it hurt? And those that didn’t know him will soon learn from how the team performs, not a marketing campaign.
Terry Bevington:
He isn’t.
So until the games begin, and we see the 2012 roster, I have no idea what to think. But for our sakes I wish him the best.
WU got his ass handed to him by the Shit Rooster, of all people! Priceless.
Chiburb is an assclown. A real life loser and internet bore.
Mick11's SBN profile.
Well said. Ozzie came in with experience telling people to run home or not. He worked out fine.
Like one article I read noted, Ventura hasn’t managed but he’s been in the dugout for over 2,000 major league games. Doesn’t that account for anything?
This takes the spotlight off of Rios, Beckham and Dunn, at least momentarily.
I'm not saying Ventura going to be a good manager. I'm saying there's no reason to write him off.
There are a lot of variables that come into play to a teams success (coaches, managers, front office, prospects, veterans, injuries, other teams). The managers experience is a small factor in the realm of things.
Gotcha
I just think that if we had waited a few more years Matt Stairs would have been available, he played for 19 years! For 13 different teams! It would have made more sense because he didn’t break his ankle and played until age 43. He can connect with the players. A guy like that doesn’t stay in baseball that long if he doesn’t have leadership qualities.
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
He just might.
He has a great pedigree – his Dad – and absolutely follows every aspect of the game.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
"But for our sakes I wish him the best."
haha, no doubt, this..
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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 7, 2011 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions
the impression I had was
KW hired Ozzie as a dark-horse because of his passion and his baseball philosophy. His experience as baseline traffic manager, not so much.
by tommyjoepeters on Oct 7, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Kenny via Merkin:
“We hire people not to tell us what we want to hear, but people who are strong enough and confident enough to disagree if they think we are wrong. And Robin has an old-school attitude about the game but is progressive and open-minded to blend in sabermetric value.”
WU got his ass handed to him by the Shit Rooster, of all people! Priceless.
Chiburb is an assclown. A real life loser and internet bore.
Mick11's SBN profile.
Ah. Her next victim.
WU got his ass handed to him by the Shit Rooster, of all people! Priceless.
Chiburb is an assclown. A real life loser and internet bore.
Mick11's SBN profile.
by Chiburb on Oct 7, 2011 7:13 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I thought the last part was very important
I don’t know if this will work out but I can live with it.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Same Stuff??
This looks like a decision that was over-thought and made in a vacuum. Sort of like K Williams and that owner guy outhinking themselves.
The lasting residual of this, however, is a clear shot at Ozzie G.. It says the they can pull in any yo-yo off the street to do the job. That OG wasn’t the great mastermind of Baseball he figured. I think that it’s a low ball shot, to be honest. Sort of payback OG’s low-class and low-budget actions over the years.
I don’t like this one. Franconia would have been a great match given the composition of the team, but, the selection shows the Sox are rebuilding. Franconia isn’t that kind of flunky.
RV probably is.
You should probably learn to spell the guy you're stumping for's name.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
if his name was franconia i think i'd like him more.
FRANCONIA IS RUNNING WILD BROTHER!
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 7, 2011 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
all is peaceful and quiet
in the land of franconia.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Franconia manages a beef shop in Cicero, why in god's ever loving name would we want him managing a baseball team
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
because its damn good beef he's bring with him
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
now that i've had a night to sleep on it
i would classify this hiring as a joke.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I suspect many will begin to feel that way
when they look at the totality of the situation.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
The seven stages of Hiring Robin Ventura
Shock
Anger
Acceptance
Depression
Acceptance, again
Denial
Humor
You made it, BM.
The policeman who jumps from a bridge to a plane is Detective John McClane, a.k.a. Bruce Willis. He’s just the star of the whole movie series and stuff, no big deal or anything. -Cruiser
go fuck yourself. you're wrong!
see, i’m still at anger. ;)
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
it is somewhat disheartening how many times the 7 steps have been discussed here in the last year
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
by Rhubarb on Oct 7, 2011 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Surprised the Bristol chart hasn't made more appearances.
The policeman who jumps from a bridge to a plane is Detective John McClane, a.k.a. Bruce Willis. He’s just the star of the whole movie series and stuff, no big deal or anything. -Cruiser
hawk is going to be on the score at 8.
i think it’s going to be bad for my health but i’m going to listen to it anyway.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
i'm doing it now!
look down.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
holy christ.
i’m only 1/3 hammered.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
you know
Robin Ventura got hit by exactly as many pitches in his 16 year, 8,271 plate appearance major league career as Carlos Quentin did in his injury shortened 118 game, 483 plate appearance 2011 season. 23. I realize that might be Chicago’s lucky number, but I wouldn’t find it very inspiring as a career HBP total.
by plunkeveryone on Oct 7, 2011 7:54 AM CDT reply actions 9 recs
So Nolan Ryan hit him more times than he was hit by pitches?
Perhaps not Chicago Tough.
Does it matter about experience? In politics being a blank slate helps you get elected. However, this reminds me of Redford in “The Candidate” when he asks after he’s elected “What do we do now?”
WHAT DO WE DO NOW???
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
When I was looking up his stats I actually thought "plunkeveryone won't like this one bit"
but I am hoping that the “old school” side Kenny talked about has to do with his feistiness.
You’ll forgive me for saying so, but I think part of the reason the White Sox get hit so much is not necessarily individual talent for getting hit, but rather corresponds to how few batters they hit themselves. It’s been discussed here at some length, and the general consensus is that Ozzie’s reluctance to retaliate for HBPs meant opposing teams could throw inside with aplomb.
I’m a fan of the HBP as an offensive weapon, but sometimes those free bases result in injuries, and I don’t like injuries. If Ventura is a bit more wrathful, the White Sox pitching staff’s HBP count might see an uptick, but the according drop in hitters being HBP with the likely losses of Pierre and Quentin could see the White Sox total HBP contribution dropping off a bit.
by mechanical turk on Oct 7, 2011 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Blankness is right
Robin might as well be a Rohrshack test.
Rohrshack is great. I love the convenience of buying a new AC adapter and learning about my fear of feminine sexuality without having to make two stops.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
by big_fun on Oct 7, 2011 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
The Rohrshack is an inky little place where we can be whatever we want.
Not quite as catchy as the original, I must admit.
by Yinka Double Dare on Oct 7, 2011 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
hawk harrelson thinks it's "fantastic".
and “a helluva choice”.
“you don’t need to have the x’s and o’s, which used to be held in such high esteem.”
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Who would they have hired that Hawk would have had a problem with?
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions
don't bother me now.
i’m torturing myself.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
by BuehrleMan on Oct 7, 2011 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your mistake is expecting something other than what you got
Of course Hawk is going to think its great
well aware.
but even though i got exactly what i expected doesn’t mean it’s not torture.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Qualified candidates.
"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."
"one of the greatest people i've been around in baseball."
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
and now the big one
“one of the best moves kenny has ever made.”
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
ssfgh
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
by Rhubarb on Oct 7, 2011 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
needs more bacon.
"His Load got Sloppy" Colintj
by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 7, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
so im not really opinionated on Ventura either way
but is anyone else shocked they made a hiring decision so fast? thats one of the fastest coaching turnarounds I’ve ever seen
Life will always throw you curves, just keep fouling them off... the right pitch will come, but when it does, be prepared to run the bases. ~Rick Maksian
KW's better past moves
at least have been ones that he’s been able to keep under the radar. That doesn’t prove anything but there is always that I guess. I asked myself what were some of the problems with this past year’s team?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
hawk, in a roundabout way, was pretty critical of ozzie.
said there’s been a problem the last 3 or 4 years and bemoaned the lack of fundamentals.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I turned on Ozzie
hard. I think it speaks volumes that even Hawk could see that. He was a BIG problem this year and contributed a great deal to the team’s demise. That’s partly why I am big proponent of an extremely opposite approach from him next year. It will be boring but might be pretty effective.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
You're talking about Hawk right? If so, I agree
He was a BIG problem this year and contributed a great deal to the team’s demise. That’s partly why I am big proponent of an extremely opposite approach from him next year. It will be boring but might be pretty effective.
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
by Rhubarb on Oct 7, 2011 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The opposite?
Don’t stretch! No mercy!
The policeman who jumps from a bridge to a plane is Detective John McClane, a.k.a. Bruce Willis. He’s just the star of the whole movie series and stuff, no big deal or anything. -Cruiser
'no mercy' would be great
whats the opposite of daggumit? Yes?
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
Rootin' tootin', I'd imagine.
The policeman who jumps from a bridge to a plane is Detective John McClane, a.k.a. Bruce Willis. He’s just the star of the whole movie series and stuff, no big deal or anything. -Cruiser
OBAMA!!!!!!!
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
hawk was critical of ozzie the day he left.
said that he changed and instead of being about the team it was all about ozzie… which is the same shit he said today. and i agree with that.
but lets be honest… i could have been hired and hawk would have said it was a great move (which it would have been… but you get the point)… his job is to promote the team.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 7, 2011 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
rec'd for the hubris
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
To me, the hire begs the question of "Are they really handing a first year manager with no actual experience a $120 million roster?"
Which direction is Williams going with the roster? Does Williams think Ventura can somehow come in and win 90 games his first year as a manager? Or is the plan to rebuild? Does he think he can somehow move Rios and Dunn? Are Buehrle and Konerko headed out? How am I still interested enough to ask all of these questions since Ozzie’s gone and Cowley told me the team is no longer supposed to be compelling?
Cheap, maybe depending on bounce back and unexpected bonus performance, yes the plan is to rebuilt, he knows Rios/Dunn aren't going anywhere, Buehrle's gone but Konerko's most likely staying and I have no idea.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Those are my thoughts too
But if Buehrle’s the only one leaving town, isn’t this payroll still over $100 million? Questions: I gots ’em.
The roster still has talent
It underachieved.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Rios and Dunn
gave you a -4 WAR. A team doesn’t always have to rebuild to make improvements. Especially in the White Sox case. Cheaper can also be better.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I am certain Ventura will coddle these guys into career years
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
I'd settle for just sitting them down if he needs to.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
hawk is convinced that beckham, rios and dunn won't be as bad next year.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Baseball men are baseball men and we have the greatest baseball men in the baseball world
all the other guys who are not somehow associated with our baseball club are not good baseball people
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
Beck yes. Dunn yes.
Rios?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
anyone else listening to cooper on the score? holy crow. talking about cowley's article
JIM (AND EVERYONE ELSE), YOU MUST LISTEN TO COOPER ON THE SCORE (AROUND 8:30 AM CENTRAL TIME, 4TH HOUR).
too much stuff to even try to summarize
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Please try
Even a little bit. TY
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
i'm telling you it's too much.
he did say he was promised an extension when ozzie got one at soxfest, but he didn’t get one then. when it was mentioned to ozzie that maybe he should step up and get his coaches extended he essentially said “fuck ’em”.
also, coop almost took the pitching coach job with the yankees. (earlier)
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
he said "some people refuse to take the high road"
talking about ozzie and company. says the players were fed up with everything.
also kind of hung kenny out to dry (at least in my opinion)- said he wanted to talk to him about a contract extension but “the guy was never around the clubhouse or on the road”.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i think a huge part of Coop's delayed extension
was a need to separate him from the Walker nonsense. There was no way KW wanted to sign him again. If you extend one coach but not others you have to hear about it all season long.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
It was pretty good.
—Said he hasn’t talked to Cowley in 2 years, and that Cowley didn’t even seek comment for this morning’s column
—Basically said Ozzie and his various tentacles were the only possible source
—Called out Cowley for sensationalizing things/lying because people don’t give a fuck about print media like they used to; specifically noted “internet writers” as Joe’s problem
—Called the Sun-Times the Enquirer, apparently had a problem being misquoted by van Schouwen last week, too
—Called Cowley a liar about 50 times
—Didn’t specifically say Ozzie quit on the team, just that a lot of the players were very very sick and tired of all of the infighting and stupidness between the front office and clubhouse
Kenny was also on WGN this morning, unequivocally stated that Cowley is a liar, and basically implied that the Sox are considering legal action.
by dr. lingerie on Oct 7, 2011 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
coop sounds reasonable about all this.
what were the odds.
by obnoxious american on Oct 7, 2011 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions
KW should hire larry for consult
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 7, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
man alive. he's still going.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
good God man
what did he say about Cowley?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Called him a liar, but admitted to asking for the extension and Ozzie sending him a text.
(Sigh).
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions
he says he asked about the extension in august
not june like cowley stated.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
the entire interview was sort of about cowley.
you know, because of what he wrote.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
over/under on Toni Braxton name drop: 4 minutes
(I’ll take the under)
by dr. lingerie on Oct 7, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He wasn't man enough for me......
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
under 2 minutes
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 7, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
this cowley column - it's not an article -
i’m really not seeing what is so new or interesting, other than some name-calling and mudslinging. cooper is very important. he predates ozzie. and he post-dates ozzie for a reason: the white sox view him as a very valuable coach (not because he’s a snitch). and, yes, it was going to be difficult to find a manger who would not be able to choose his own pitching coach. the franconas, la russas, etc. were not going to go for that. don’t know about martinez and alomar but they probably would have at least wanted to be sold on cooper (though alomar knows what he’s about).
this is just ozzie lashing out once again through cowley.
by larry on Oct 7, 2011 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is just ozzie lashing out once again through cowley.
this seems so…pathetic.
by obnoxious american on Oct 7, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
oh its ozzie alright
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I am very curious about what the Guillens think about the Ventura hire
Did Oney tweet any disparaging remarks?
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
said something along the lines of
they are trying to keep fans
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
also said "i bet cooper got more money and more years"
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
indirectly.
but i guarantee he got all of his shit from oney yesterday. they were tweeting back and forth to each other during the press conference.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
ugh.
they’re like 7th grade girls.
by obnoxious american on Oct 7, 2011 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions
joe cowley
it doesn’t surprise me he referred to cooper as “Judas” because he clearly views ozzie as a Jesus-like figure
KW's veiled threat on GN:
"But I’m not surprised because the gentlemen who wrote the article, Joe Cowley, is just simply, if I’m being honest, a liar. And I can prove it from multiple, multiple articles that he’s written and I’m looking into it actually to a greater degree because it has gotten to the point to where it has cast a shadow on us and it’s unfair to a lot of people."
I would hope he knows better than what he seems to be implying. This isn’t libel. And I don’t get — at least from Kenny’s perspective — what’s constructive about continuing to acknowledge this shit. Cowley’s well is damn near dried up at this point (unless he goes to Miami). Let him take his parting shots, and then see how long people want to continue to read columns about a guy who doesn’t work here anymore.
what's up with KW considering legal action against cowley, what kind of action could the sox take?
b/c cowley can probably see through that and be more motivated to stir up more shit
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Oct 7, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
It's his way of muscling up the liar accusation
Plus he may genuinely want there to be something actionable.
Right now, Kenny’s on a mission to make sure no one takes Cowley seriously again.
Does sticking one's toungue out at someone qualify as legal action?
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
Intimidation
1- Unless the Sox can prove Cowley maliciously twisted information to paint a willfully inaccurate portrayal of Don Cooper’s role in Cowley’s departure.
2- The White Sox, and Kenny Williams are public figures. Joe Cowley gets a lot of lattitude.
What?! I ain't no Professor Pickles!
Illinois has an anti-SLAPP law, right?
Because that would also weigh against the legal option being anything but sabre-rattling.
i foresee a scenario where kenny tells cowley to meet him at the fundamentals deck to "talk this out".
where upon his arrival neon green shirted men close in with year old churros.
by obnoxious american on Oct 7, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
This was my favorite part of the article
"Coop is obviously now the GM, assistant GM, manager and pitching coach the way he’s been acting the last few weeks,"
That has Oney Guillen written all over it
by notoneyguillen on Oct 7, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
This is what Ozzie will get to see every time the Marlins go yard at home.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
This is not a joke.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Yes it is.
"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."
So, we all need to drop acid and head to a Marlins game!
"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)
I've had bad trips before and it is silly shit like this that causes them
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
See my comment on the SB nation article.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 7, 2011 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Laughed so hard.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Maybe he'll demand that the Marlins trade Stanton to the Sox so he doesn't have to see it as often
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
if i had to look at that i'd embrace the sac bunt too.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 7, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
And it will have sounds incorporated somehow.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Yes; the sound of six thousand people simultaneously groaning.
"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."
by RWShow on Oct 7, 2011 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
You're overestimating by about 5,000.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
You fail to take the New Stadium Attendance Bump into account.
I bet they reach five figures at some point!
"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."
Opening Day...and then it's all down hill.
"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)
A circus-like ornament is completely appropriate for the circus that is the Montana Marlins
White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.
Omar vizquel
If Omar comes back he’ll be older than the manager. Kinda weird.
by 23chisox14 on Oct 7, 2011 9:06 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
i think barber on the bucs is older than their coach.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
lol my brother said ventura's response was like Lou Brown... they just played that on the danny mac show
“uhhhh i don’t know… i got a guy on the other line about some white walls- i’ll talk to you later”
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
At least McNeil admitted that he acted like a dumbass over the Quenneville hire
In which Coach Q! proved him wrong very quickly
I could and will be wrong
But I got the idea that the White Sox are about to embark on a 2-3 year rebuilding/shed bad salary program. I would be more enthused for it except the farm system might be the worst in MLB.
"Lemonade was a popular drink back in the day and it still is.."
Gangstarr
Williams: Cowley is a liar
So when Cowley, a Chicago Sun-Times columnist and 670 The Score contributor, wrote a column in Friday morning’s paper that exposed pitching coach Don Cooper as "Judas" to former manager Ozzie Guillen, Williams snapped.
"Completely unfair, number 1, because Don Cooper was a large part of making us a successful organization and helping us win a world championship," Williams said on WGN-TV Friday. "His area has been one of the most consistent areas in all of baseball for the last 10 years so I think it’s unfair to him and it’s just wrong.
"But I’m not surprised because the gentlemen who wrote the article, Joe Cowley, is just simply, if I’m being honest, a liar. And I can prove it from multiple, multiple articles that he’s written and I’m looking into it actually to a greater degree because it has gotten to the point to where it has cast a shadow on us and it’s unfair to a lot of people."
KW - lawyering up!
"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)
larry is stocking his briefcase with extra horse jerky for the occasion.
"His Load got Sloppy" Colintj
by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 7, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Where's the wild speculation about Robin's bench coach?
I’ll start:
1. Greg Luzinski (Screw up or dog it and Bull will kick your ass)
2. Harold or Gene Lamont (further adding to the dullness factor)
3. Carl Everett (add some “crazy” to the mix)
4. Dan Pasqua (Party!)
5. Rock Raines (might actually be a legit candidate)
"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)
They had to ask permission of another team to talk to Robin's future bench coach
I’m thinking its Dave Martinez
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
Which would be pretty neat.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
it would be hysterical
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
i highly doubt that. (not sure if you are joking or not)
but no way martinez, who is an up and comer… leaves tampa for what many view a sinking ship.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Just imagine!
The dynamic tag team of Robin Ventura and Davey Martinez!
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
the person i want to know what he thinks about this all?
Harold Baines. Harold and Ozzie have been great friends for years- but Harold got the Sox extension, more responsibility and was mentioned by Cooper today. Coop said “I told harold this isn’t going to end well because some people refuse to take the high road”.
I know we’ll never hear from him… especially in a storm like this… but he is probably the one guy that can set everything straight.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Kenny and Cooper should have taken the high road themselves and just ignored the article.
Now they are just playing into the drama. The drama should have ended when Ozzie left.
It should have, but when you have the official Guillen mouthpiece lobbing bombs…
"Lemonade was a popular drink back in the day and it still is.."
Gangstarr
by Big Daddy Kool on Oct 7, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Is it telling that Cooper and KW never really commented on anything Cowley wrote until Ozzie left?
Off-Season Proposition Bet Tally - 1 won - 4 lost
I think of him as "Mariotti lite"
Saying inflammatory things to get self-publicity and a rise out of readers.
Um, like we’re all doing here.
"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)
Great read
Also a great literary reference as well
by Captain_Wookie on Oct 8, 2011 1:09 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
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