Picking Up Jason Frasor's Option Was Stupid
Since 2006, the White Sox have won 10 fewer games than the money they've spent indicates they should have. Another way to say it is that the average general manager would have won 10 more games than Kenny Williams managed to with the players he selected over those seasons.
And that's in an organization that employs Don Cooper and Herm Schneider. As I've mentioned a jillion times, Coop and Herm turn nothing into something every season in ways that nearly no other GM can rely on. Coop has one peer in Dave Duncan. Herm's record is by far the best in his field. So Kenny's player investment work is actually worse than merely slightly below average. Most GM's don't have his in-built advantages.
As it happens, picking up Jason Frasor's option is exactly the kind of money wasting acquisition that the Sox have made a specialty of over the years. Sure, it's only one year and how much can it really hurt? It's no Mark Teahen. It's no Scott Linebrink. Or Rios and Dunn, for that matter. The suck involved here is on a less painful level, but it manages to illustrate a number of problems that have come up time and again since the World Series win.
For starters, Frasor could have been offered arbitration. If you don't mind ending up with the guy anyway, why not offer him arbitration? But really, the hope is he declines and tries to get a multi-year deal on the open market. In which case the Sox would likely have ended up with Type B compensation. That's right, the Sox passed up on a free draft pick a year after they didn't have a first round pick.
Meanwhile, they've already got a bunch of guys doing Frasor's job quite adequately. Between Santos, Thornton, Crain and Reed, the Sox should be well set at the end of ball games. So they're basically just paying for relief insurance. As JJ suggested to me over IM, it's like Kenny Williams learned the wrong lesson from 2007. If you have real talent on the field and on the mound, a couple flammable relievers isn't going to sink your team. Kenny apparently hails from the Hawk Harrelson School of Bullpen Overemphasis.
It's all the more ridiculous when you remember the Sox are deeply underwater on their assets. Between Rios and Dunn, they're very likely to have something like $15-25M providing absolutely no production and hence absolutely no revenue. That means the premium, if you're going to spend the money at all, is on upside.
And relievers rarely have upside. Let alone relievers paid at market rates. Let alone 34 year old middle relievers paid at market rate. Jason Frasor is never going to be worth more than this deal pays him by an amount meaningful enough to subtract from the downside of taking $3.75M from some other player the Sox might sign.
Oh right. Some other player. Like -- and this is all very theoretical of course -- Mark Buehrle, for one. Sox fans kind of have a thing for him from what I've heard. But yeah, that's $3.75M we can't offer him this year. Of course it could certainly be the case that he's already gone because the Sox are so far underwater on bad moves in the vein of re-upping Jason Frasor that actually re-upping Jason Frasor isn't responsible for Buehrle leaving the South Side.
In which case, that's $3.75M the Sox can't spend in the draft or in the international amateur market. Then again, it's absurd to think $3.75M could matter in reviving a farm system that is separated from the other 29 systems by a vast chasm of suck. It's not like $3.75M is more than the Sox spent in sum on the 2011 draft.* Actually, that's exactly what it is. That was a total misdirect.
In sum: the Sox are spending too much money on a position that doesn't deserve it at the expense of other positions of need on a team that doesn't have money to waste.
Unless it does. In which case all is forgiven. You're the best Kenny!
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As punishment for the last three years
I would like for KW to defend moves like this and explain his thinking behind them. It is clearly too bad that all his moves are so cloak & dagger, KGB, counter-intelligence motivated and are just the first domino in many other smart and complex decisions.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
KW does not need to DEFEND his moves....
…. I have just chosen I won’t pay to watch them play out anymore. I have spent literally thousands of dollars of hard-earned money watching a) Jake Peavy “pitch”, b) Mark Teahen play third base, c) watch Adam Dunn “bat”, d) Scott Linebrink give up hits, e) Rob Mackowiak “play” center field, f) Nick Swisher be Nick Swisher and g) Mike MacDougal be Mike MacDougal. I won’t do it again, and I especially won’t watch Robin Ventura learn being a manager of a baseball team by trial and error.
When this team starts acting professionally, I will hear about it and will then consider buying tickets. Until then, I am on the sidelines.
by LorenzoBandini on Nov 2, 2011 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you watch on tv or listen to the radio? Have you let them know you're boycotting the sponsors?
Or told them why you’re not buying any more tickets?
If not, for all they know you’re just a cheap, fair weather bandwagon jumper who comes out only when they win. How will they know that you are truly a fan and are showing support by not supporting them?
Just curious…
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
I am not going to boycott...
… just won’t by tickets. I still love baseball.
by LorenzoBandini on Nov 3, 2011 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
That'll just help spur on more half price ticket sales,
and so I’ll go to more games. Works for me!
it just makes me weak in the knees the way gomez neither fixed or removed his crooked ass helmet after that puntoslide. -Trooper on Oct 5, 2011
by South Side Expat on Nov 3, 2011 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I will be viewing 140+ games so i can see first hand how it plays out.
That is a nice hero move you’ve got going on there though
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I will do the same....I always watch the Sox....Sometimes I wonder if I am masochist
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Nov 2, 2011 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I am Venesuelan.
I will be sworn Canadian citizen next year though
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Nov 2, 2011 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions
*Venezuelan....the autocorrect is fucked up
That I have half Merlot bottle in my system has nothing to do.
I am listening Jamiroquai though….i must be a bit drunk
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Nov 2, 2011 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
this is gold.
or green, as it were.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
****Virtual insanity*****
Like exercising Frasor’s “option”
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Nov 2, 2011 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions
This.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
pretty much.
and pretty much every excuse that people try to make to justify this decision is inherently flawed.
i’m so sick of ken williams. he’s not good at his job. which is made worse by his smug arrogance.
and if he hadn’t won a title 6 years ago in this baseball championship-starved city he’d have been long gone.
so this is the price we pay for 2005. i wonder how much longer we’ll have to pay it.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
ken williams career BWAR: -.7
dishearteningly, he might be a worse GM than he was major leaguer.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Nov 2, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Nov 2, 2011 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I'm over him
Somehow this was the last straw.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 12:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
i think we were hopeful for some kind of rebirth.
that ditching ozzie, plus this year’s failures would lead to a more driven, focused and shrewd ken williams.
alas, he’s just an idiot.
and i’m so sick of hearing his sympathizers asking us to wait for the ace up his sleeve.
great. he made another sucker move, but perhaps he’s got a bigger sucker on the line? bullshit.
make solid moves. and if once in a while some other GM slips up, then take advantage.
enough of this hail mary GMing. he’s supposed to have access to so much more info than us, we shouldn’t be able to pick apart his moves as failures before the ink dries using fangraphs.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Nov 2, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
His record before the WS is really good
So maybe everybody else picked up on Econ 101 in the meantime while he continues to kick it old school.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 12:33 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
i've wondered what kind of economic forecasting they do.
because they clearly have a flawed model for valuing wins and money.
the hudson trade baffles me. i just can’t imagine a rationale that’s justifiable.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
so one can add failure to properly evaluate talent to the mix, too.
by Shoeless In SC on Nov 2, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
You mean with Hudson specifically or in general?
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 2, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
He means Hudson is an outlier.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
i actually mean hudson and holmberg.
because i think they got gangraped on that trade. but we’ll have to wait and see on holmberg, since he has only reached high A. where he was the youngest starting pitcher in any high A league.
Yes. I keep forgetting him.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
they traded him as though no one else
thought he was either.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 1:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I suppose that's not a terrible guess
given the track record of top 100 pitching prospects. the return still wasn’t enough in that case though.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 1:26 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
it was a pretty bad guess.
the only point i was trying to make was that neither pitcher was a highly rated prospect. it wasn’t, say, the dodgers trading carlos santana for a couple months of casey blake.
Nor a hitter...
…not that it matters. He just got the silver slugger award.
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Nov 3, 2011 6:12 AM CDT up reply actions
that ditching ozzie, plus this year’s failures would lead to a more driven, focused and shrewd ken williams.
Sometimes I wonder if this option would have been picked if Guillen was still part of the team. Guillen always said he had nothing to do with KW maneuvers, but that may not be the case for Guillen or any other manager for that matter.
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Nov 3, 2011 6:05 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah, it's kind of strange.
i understand that i am very capable of being irritated, angered, aggreived, annoyed or enraged by a multitude of things no matter how great or small, but for some reason this particular move is one of those that has me disproportionately disheartened.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
This is a city of losers. We celebrate fleeting success, witness the '86 Super Bowl...
and Ditka’s continued popularity long after he’d worn out his welcome.
And most Sox fans were oblivious to Ozzie’s mismanagement of the last 2 seasons.
And Kenny’s waste of money.
We deserve Kenny GM. (The ‘royal’ we.)
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
by Chiburb on Nov 2, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
it's embarrassing.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
rec'd for sending KW to the Royals
"Statistics are about as interesting as first base coaches" Jim Bouton
by Grinder Rule #42 on Nov 2, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
at a discount? come on. at 3/$30M, the sox would clearly match.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
I'm more angry at Tom Ricketts for doing whatever it took to put in place the best management for his organization possible.
Why can’t we have that? What on earth is Jerry’s rational for keeping Kenny and the rest of them? How on earth can he look around baseball and NOT invest in the minors and drafting/development?
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 2, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
the myth of jerry reinsdorf as good owner has always confused me.
i guess stumbling onto michael jordan makes you a genius.
his track record of success is measured in dollars and cents, not trophies and rings.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Well, building a championship team around a 2-guard is virtually impossible,
no matter how good the 2-guard is. He gave Krause a lot of room to work, just as he has Kenny. He provided them both with money and his loyalty is a strength. But it’s also a failing, as we witness now with the White Sox and Bulls fans did in the aftermath of the Jordan years.
No one can deny he’s a great business man. Maybe it’s the aforementioned loyalty that has prevented him from more drastic changes to the White Sox. But from a baseball-as-business perspective, it doesn’t make sense to me that he hasn’t pushed Kenny towards drafting/developing. It works in Tampa. It works in Milwaukee. It’s (going to) work on the Northside. It works in Texas. Goddamnit, it will work here, if you’d ever do it.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 2, 2011 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
are we still talking about the GOAT?
yeah, it’s pretty easy to win with that guy.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Didn't work until he got the right coach, the right system, the right additional role players.
Ask Lebron. Anyway, that’s not my point.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 2, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
if his only defenders pointed to profits, then i couldn't disagree.
but it’s sucked being a fan of his teams post-MJ.
except for one year.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Sounds win-win to me.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
that and jerry krause being a tool when it came to paying players thus making him the scapegoat
not old enough to remember but i believe it was Rod thorn who tried to make it understood unanimously that if hakeem wasnt available they were taking Jordan over whoever if they could
and then i believe Jordan flew into O’Hare and no Bulls representatives were there to pick him up and transport him to the facilities and some limo courier had a no show client and offered MJ a ride and then became his personal assistant
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
R.I.P. Big Homey Nate Dogg: "Cuz Iiiiiiiiii have ne-evv-ver met a giiiiiiiiiirrrrrrllllllllllllllllllll tha-at I loved in the whole wide wooorrrlllllddddddd"
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Nov 3, 2011 1:23 AM CDT up reply actions
We can't have that because
Jerry is “Mr. Loyal” to long-time members of the organization. If you were a part of this organization in the mid-to-late 80s you seemingly have job security. I don’t know of any other businessman that doesn’t continually evaluate the performance of his employees regardless of tenure and make changes when it’s needed. It’s time Jerry starts being loayl to US.
Ah the magical business world
Where no one ever got or retained a job because they know the right guy.
by Titan52 on Nov 2, 2011 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
baseball front offices are just like the real world.
another set of jobs you never had a chance at that you could easily be more qualified for than the guys who were hired.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Nov 2, 2011 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I doubt I'll be able to get to SoxFest this year, but if one of you gets the opportunity to ask
a question to Ken Williams, please ask, “Why should we as fans believe that you, with your record of failure over the last 6 years, your gross mismanagement of funds over the last 3 years and your seeming ‘asleep at the switch’ nature over the last 2 years, think that you, Kenny Williams, can fix this?”
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 2, 2011 12:26 PM CDT reply actions
Too wordy.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Okay. How about just, "Why should we believe that you can fix this mess you made?"
Better?
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 2, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes. Though I won't ask it because nobody knows there is a mess.
Well, we do. And a smattering of others. But to Sox fans in general the “mess” was Dunn not hitting. I’ll go out on a limb and say 75% of “Sox fans” don’t know Frasor’s name, and 99% don’t know/care what he’s paid.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Phil Rogers
I read The Daily Phil every morning in the Trib and whenever Phil knocks KW, people jump to William’s defense. I don’t get it.
To be fair
Phil is almost always wrong.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 1:21 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Then it's our job to make them.
As ‘Occupy 35th Street!’ as that may sound.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 2, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
.
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"Statistics are about as interesting as first base coaches" Jim Bouton
by Grinder Rule #42 on Nov 2, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I know---It's Joe
(answered in Howard Cosell’s voice)
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
How about
1. Do you think there is a correlation between the Sox annually spending the least amount of money in the draft and annually having the lowest rated minor league system in baseball?
2. What is the rationale in spending $5 million dollars this past year on Juan Pierre and $3.5 million on your entire amateur draft?
Anything that general is easy to squirm out of with platitudes and promises
If you want to grill a GM in a public forum, just ask question after question about very specific circumstances that illustrate broader problems. So ask about the draft, Hudson, cost-controlled players, Hudson, Latin America, Hudson, etc.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
by big_fun on Nov 2, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I am sure
The defense of the Sox minor league will somehow involve mentioning the 28 year old castoff from someone else’s team as a prospect.
no, imagine the retort will be that his last three drafts have produced more major league value than any other teams'.
oh, and if he wanted to, he could go back four years
and then tell people he signed alexei ramirez and dayan viciedo, too. and then tell you that you don’t know what you’re talking about. and he might be right.
I am sure he could
And he would be right. But he would still be a guy running a major league team who decided Wise, Kotsay, Pierre, Teahen were plan A on opening day.
And are we really in gloating about Viciedo territory yet?
ah, changing the argument.
and he can at least say his 2008 latin american signing will be plan A on opening day. everyone else’s will be lucky to be in A ball. ask billy beane how he feels about the signing bonus he gave to michael ynoa.
Wasn't meaning to change the subject
The point was if they actually made the draft a priority, they would hit on a few more guys and have better options internally than going into a season with the no upside veterans we have been subjected to recently.
recently. as in, not now.
maybe people should stop complaining about the problems of five years ago and take a look at what the real problem with this team is. it ain’t failing to have cost-controlled players. and it ain’t daniel hudson. the core of an AL team is the starting rotation, the eight position players and the DH. these are the guys that can put up really meaningful production that helps the team win lots of games (i.e., 2+ WAR). and these are the guys that can put up really shitty production that helps a team lose lots of games.
of those fourteen currently projected core players, ten are players that either debuted as white sox players or came to the white sox with at least two seasons until arbitration. nine of those players are still cost-controlled to one degree or another. the other one is paul konerko. he’s been paid market rate for the past six seasons and has been worth it.
the problem is within the four players acquired by KW when they weren’t cost-controlled anymore. now, it’s not a problem that KW had to acquire by trade or free agency players to fill holes. there isn’t a team in baseball that is able to stock their team completely with homegrown, cost-controlled players. including konerko, that’s five ostensibly market rate players. the white sox are a big market team, capable of paying market salary to multiple players and multiple above average to star players. so we’re okay in theory.
and everyone already knows what the problem is. adam dunn, alex rios and jake peavy were paid a combined $40.5 million in 2011. on the market, that’s expected to be 9 WAR. instead, they produced a combined -3 WAR.
pretend, for a moment, that these three still underperformed their salaries, collectively played average and combined for 6 WAR. your 2011 white sox would have been competitive until the final week of the season and would have had a strong chance to be in the playoffs.
in 2012, these three will be paid a combined $43.5 million. and you’d probably set the over/under for combined production at 4 WAR.
that is fucking awful return on money. the problem isn’t cost-controlled players. KW essentially solved that problem. the problem isn’t no upside veterans paid a few million. there really aren’t any. the problem is paying star money to players who don’t deserve star money. and that is far more damaging to a team than paying juan pierre market to put up 1 WAR in LF.
by larry on Nov 3, 2011 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Very good post!
Also, another bit of the problem (to a much lesser degree) was perhaps Guillen allowing that -3 WAR to happen. I think Guillen failed in managing this disaster as if he pushed for that collective -3.0 to happen…. can’t forget him that night when he took the bat off Lillibridge facing Nathan to hit Dunn (When Lillibridge had already homer vs Nathan), but shortly after that he left Vizquel to face Nathan having also Dunn available.
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Nov 3, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Thank you.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Of course the retun on the big money was the problem
All I am saying is the supporting pieces were a giant roll of the dice. Obviously you can’t have stars at every position, but having guys who you can at least hope to put up average production or have some upside would help.
They just had an awful lot of eggs in the Konerko/Dunn/Q/Rios basket, and seemed to just assume the best case scenario with those guys when constructing the rest of the lineup. This seems odd because of some of the traits of these players (Quentins inability to stay healthy/Rios consistency/Konerko’s age).
Because of our heart of the order, it’s ok that our 2B might not be able to hit mlb pitching consistently. Beckham has enough of a pedigree and showed enough the last half of 2010 to feel hopeful, but we couldn’t be sure he had it figured out.. Because of our heart of the order, we can go with a 3B who wouldn’t crack the top 10 prospect lists with a lot of teams. Hopefully he hits, but who knows. Because of our heart of the order, we can willingly go into the season with a LF who we know will be among the least productive hitters in the league.
The big money guys failing hurts, but the -0.6 team fWAR at both 3B and LF doesn’t help either.
ok. now you're focusing on the problems of a year ago.
the supporting pieces for next season, with the exception of pierzynski, are all players who either have upside or you can pretty much count on putting up average production.
Yes
Much harder to complain about problems that haven’t happened yet.
not really.
we spent the offseason prior to 2010 complaining about the lack of DH. we spent the offseason prior to 2011 complaining about peavy and then spent spring training complaining about how peavy is not being handled properly. most of the problems that a team experiences are not a shock.
He's gotten the draft and minor league system questions multiple times
Standard draft answer: “we can either spend money on the draft or sign free agents. which one puts asses in the seats?”
Standard minor league answer: “If I wanted the best minor league system according to Baseball America (makes jackoff motion with his hand), I would simply send Danks, Beckham, Viciedo, etc to Charlotte.”
What?! I ain't no Professor Pickles!
by 67WMAQ on Nov 2, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
There's definitely a limit to what you're really going to get out of a guy at an event like Soxfest
But I guess if you planned enough you could certainly say something like “hey Kenny in the past you said-”
"we can either spend money on the draft or sign free agents. which one puts asses in the seats?"
“-seeing as how that didn’t work out so well in 2011, will the Sox invest more in cost-controlled players or do you think “all-in” free agent signings are still the way to go, and why?"
Not saying he couldn’t potentially get out from under that too but if you’re going to try specific questions seem like a better bet to me.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
KW is devout practioner of the golden rule of interviews.
don’t answer the question you were asked. answer the question you wish you were asked.
My favorite Kenny evasion tactic?
2009. He was asked a question of a second grader (who was obviously coached by his dad). He called the kid up to the panel – and then deferred to him every time someone asked him a tough question.
You have to remember – there isn’t much time for questions at these events. Kenny would get a question, deliver a terse answer, followed by 20 minutes of Hawk going off on some kind of tangent.
What?! I ain't no Professor Pickles!
that's an analogue to the above.
don’t answer the question. have someone else answer the question for you. preferably someone people find cute.
I questioned Kenny about Mark Teahen
becoming 3B despite losing that job in KC. KW’s response “Well if you remember he lost his position to Alex Gordon.” The same Alex Gordon who is now playing LF, to which I followed up by asking “If Teahen was better wouldn’t he have pushed Gordon to a different position?” Kenny’s response “You’re gonna like Mark Teahen.” I would expect this would be the typical KW response to any question posed to him this year.
"Back in 2010, you told me I was gonna like Mark Teahen."
“Out of all the bad investments you’ve made in this year’s team, which one will you lie about to my face now?”
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Nov 2, 2011 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
i just can't wait til they trade quentin or danks
saying that they don’t have the money to pay for them… when they gave this guy basically half of what they are going to get.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
hadn't really considered that.
i guess Q! still has to go in an effort to get a decent prospect or two though.
Thanks, Colin.
Pretty much nails it.
The sun on the balcony is almost unbearable, worse than the booing fans in Chicago shedding miserable light on his failures at work.
by winningugly on Nov 2, 2011 12:56 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Where's Our Theo?
I’m seriously considering going to SoxFest this year simply to BOO Kenny Williams. This arrogant and cocky son-of-a-gun has done nothing since 2005 except drive this team into the crapper. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Yeah, getting Jim Thome and Javy Vazquez sure sucked.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Check out the Rowand for Thome trade
not as lopsided as you would guess
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 1:42 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm seeing 8.0 bWAR for Thome from 06-07 and 4.6 bWAR for Rowand.
With an additional 2.9 bWAR coming from 08-09 for the Jimmer.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
We got him back from them before they got any major league value out of him though.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Gonzalez was essentially nothing to them.
They got him as a piece of the Thome trade and a year later gave him up in the one-sided Floyd for Garcia trade.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
per BA, he was the #73 prospect when the white sox traded him.
he was the #72 prospect when the white sox got him. to suggest he had no value is silly.
That's not what I'm saying.
What I’m saying is that Philly didn’t really get anything out of having him. He pitched for Reading for a year and they wound up sending him back. He was a key part of the trades for sure, but the Phillies lost the trade where they sent him away by a long shot and they lost the trade that obtained him as well.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Payback for Kenny giving them Tadahito in a time of need. Worked out well for Philly.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
I will not check this out.
I dug 2008 Jim Thome. Rowand’s 2008 contract was not diggable.
My heart will go on.
Why buy the cow when the milk is kinda bitchy?
I don't usually have a problem with the 1-yr deal, when it's a high risk/ high reward deal.
Andruw Jones, maybe. Jim Thome would have been nice. Lance Berkman for a year. Curt Schilling. Bartolo Colon. Freddy.
I don’t see the high reward possibilities in Jason Frasor. What’s the upside of this 1-yr deal? They are over-paying an average player, with hopes that he’ll be average, but they’ll sleep easy knowing that they won’t be paying for a bum in 2013? If that’s the upside, what’s with the $3.75 they gave to the guy with bum-possibilities? They are preparing for failure. It’s a fine safeguard, I suppose. But it was the first damn Monday after the 2011 World Series! Aren’t Kenny and the scouts confident that they could find a better place for $3.75 million dollars than 34 yr-old Jason ‘Not Worth Extended Arbitration Years’ Frasor?! If not, then draft somebody with a better upside than his not in the 2013 plan-ness.
That was too wordsy. I mean to say “this” to colin.
Why buy the cow when the milk is kinda bitchy?
Indeed. I'm frustrated for reasons only partly explainable.
This is the cause of their itchy trigger finger? I can imagine the Kenny-directed discussion around this move, likely in a board room two weeks ago:
“We need to make a splash immediately after the Series… Sign Jason. The fans will know we mean business.”
“According to experts, our offense is only as good as our bullpen. Dunn could use some help. Sign Jason.”
“Hey, guys, I just found a 50-cent piece! Let’s make sure Frasor is taken care of.”
"On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years." -TLR
by Teahenny Penny on Nov 2, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I was stuck on making this rant like
I wanted it for a while. It’s not easy TP articulate why a 1 year deal for not much money is meaningful to complain about.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 2:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
At this point everything Kenny does seems to be that much more meaningful.
"On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years." -TLR
by Teahenny Penny on Nov 2, 2011 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Especially without Ozzie to split the rancor?
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
That too.
But instead of not even having the benefit of the doubt, I think many of us (me at least) are actually gunning for him. What may have been an okay deal in a vacuum is simply disheartening now.
"On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years." -TLR
by Teahenny Penny on Nov 2, 2011 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree that this was a stupid move. But without knowing the unknowns of this offseason...
And spring training, I’m not as disheartened as many here. I’m not encouraged by any means, but I’d like to see a bigger picture before passing judgement.
Patience, grasshopper.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Calmer than you are.
"On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years." -TLR
by Teahenny Penny on Nov 2, 2011 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Oh I don't doubt that. But patience?
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
What other choice do I have?
Of course I’ll wait to see the product on the field on opening day. Without passing judgment, this move does absolutely nothing to restore confidence in Kenny.
"On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years." -TLR
by Teahenny Penny on Nov 2, 2011 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more re this move. Guess I'm just not seeing the need for "restore" yet.
Whatever.
(And not in a dismissive way. You could well be ahead of me here, Colin too, in how I’ll feel later. Just not there as y’all are.)
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
if your operating theory is that Herm and Coop
have kept us from really ugly stuff, it’s not that hard to feel the need for restoration.
maybe i’m somewhat short of exactly that, but it’s in the neighborhood.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
But that's the point of Jim's post
under what circumstances does Frasor make sense? Even if we’ve got a huge budget, why Frasor? Unless for some reason they think they can stretch him out if Peavy goes down or something, there’s no point.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 6:11 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Is Crain hurt? Is Thornton being traded? Reed?
That’s what I mean by unknowns. Too early to puke on KW, time will tell.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
i think there's enough room there
and in Jim’s post for those kind of alternatives. but they’re beside the point.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Yep. I've had it.
This has been a winnable division since the WS and they haven’t capitalized despite serious advantages over the competition.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 6:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
But now all the blame is on KW? That's what I don't get.
Look at Rob Mack (cuz he was used by the guy supporting the team by not supporting them (makes sense if you’re in book club)):
A nice, veteran utility infield pickup, especially after seeing that Pablo couldn’t play 3B. Did Kenny put him in CF for 50 fucking games?
All I’m saying is that you’re right, stupid move. Gloom and doom over it? Not yet.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
i'm not gloom and doom
i’m just done apologizing for KW and i’m done predicting/hoping he’ll turn it around. if he does, very pleasant surprise. but i very much doubt it. he’s become incurious and stubborn.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
You may be right. I just feel it's too much angst over a 1 year deal for a reliever.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
that's not what the angst is over.
it’s a symbol, man.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
i've been talking for years about the assclownery of paying market price for what is essentially roster filler
often because they either don’t trust, or haven’t developed, any cost-controlled talent.
by larry on Nov 2, 2011 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Quick question:
You said KW was 2 losses worse per season over the last 5 years. How is that not attributable to Ozzie?
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
you really think that's Ozzie's doing?
unless his clubhouse was that truly miserable, managers aren’t paid so much that we should expect those kinds of issues.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
one thing you can say for this though:
it isn’t quite the post-world series kick in the nuts that the teahen trade + extension was.
Is this JR's excuse to finally can KW?
“I gave you a second chance and you couldn’t go one month without screwing up. YOU FIRED!”
to which KW replies,
“NO, YOU FIRED!”
and then he jaywalks his way across 35th street. The End.
White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.
if arbitration had been offered,
and he accepted, what do you think the price would have been? similar to 3.75m? is the idea that by picking up the option they saved money as opposed to going to arbitration?
Easy chief
We’re a community - Tdogg
I didn't speculate too much here because
I didnt feel like doing any research. But if the idea is to save money by avoiding arbitration, how about not signing the guy at all?
As to the specifics of arb outcomes, I’d guess larry would be better informed.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 2:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
i thought the point was if you're willing to pay him the money, decline the option.
offer arbitration. he’s a type B, so if he accepts, same cost, if he declines, you get a supplemental pick.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Yeah that was my guess
But I didn’t bhoov it up
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 6:01 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
+1 for the bhoov reference. Smartest man who ever posted here.
No offense.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
This is inaccurate.
It was gchat, for chrissakes.
White Sox Talk: She needs premium, dude! PREMIUUUUM! DUUUUUDE!
by UribeAuction on Nov 2, 2011 4:59 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
How is that not IM?!
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Nov 2, 2011 6:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You just don't understand.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
congratulations to daniel hudson on his silver slugger award.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
yeah, this was idiotic.
I was kind of waiting to see how everything plays out before trashing the move, but Colin you made some great points to make me question WTF.
I know KW is in charge up there and has final say, but how many of these stupid moves have the backing or were originally supported by Hahn? Just saying. Everyone trashes KW, but I think it’s the while front office that needs a change.
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Nov 2, 2011 6:43 PM CDT via iPhone app reply actions
here today..........
Former Red Sox manager Terry Francona, Cardinals third base coach Jose Oquendo, Triple-A Memphis manager Chris Maloney, former Cardinals catcher Mike Matheny and White Sox coach Joe McEwing are candidates for the position, Strauss reports.
"The game's out there and it's play or get played..."
by Air Raid Siren Stan on Nov 2, 2011 10:25 PM CDT reply actions
Im really hoping mcewing gets that gig
Im also really hoping epstein doesnt consider dave martinez. It would be too much to bear.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Wheeling and dealing
Everyone is going to be super stoked when Kenny trades Frasor for Chone Figgins.
by Chris Pummer on Nov 2, 2011 11:24 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Where would he play?
"On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years." -TLR
by Teahenny Penny on Nov 2, 2011 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Who dis?
"On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years." -TLR
by Teahenny Penny on Nov 3, 2011 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions
cool and composed GM, that's who :)
SSS comment threads, brimming with useful info and debate, sometimes you just can’t help but check it out.
Taking a walk in a donkey park listening to the wind of change
Heh. Stick around, pal.
"On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years." -TLR
by Teahenny Penny on Nov 3, 2011 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Gobsmacked...
is the word for my reaction to all things White Sox these days. Learning that arbitration was possible with a potential compensatory pick just made it worse.
I still want to see a cleansing fire for this organization. I see dark days on the horizon.
Was the Stanley Cup actually a dream? It already seems like a lifetime ago.
good move
after QE 3 a relief pitcher will cost a gazzilion dollars – best get em tied up now
by hoodlight on Nov 3, 2011 6:08 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
i'm going to pretend you're WU rather than joking: ever notice how inflation expectations bumped up to 2%
after each QE? and no higher?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

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