The future has changed!
Between the seeming impossibility of Mark Buehrle's return and the now lingering specter of John Danks' departure at the end of the season (or otherwise), the Sox' pitching staff is going to take on a whole new look over the course of the next few years. As depressing as the impending loss of Buehrle and Danks is (and it really really is), we do at least have Chris Sale to look forward to.*
Probably anyway. The worried, ever-anxious part of me wonders whether Kenny might have left Torii Hunter and a bag of chips over at Arte Moreno's and Moreno's balking at only getting Beckham in return.
But sure, let's assume all is well and that Chris Sale will be spending his time as a starting pitcher for the Chicago White Sox for some time to come and not, hypothetically, down in Arizona looking like a future Cy Young winner. If you'll recall, I peered into the crystal ball to see how it might turn out should Sale have started last season. To recap the post, Sale was very well regarded coming out of the draft. Here's Andy Seiler:
Sale quickly showed that to be out of date, sporting a much improved slider. Nonetheless, my assessment of his chances wasn't exactly glowing:His fastball is a plus pitch that generally sits 91-94, touching 96, and he commands it with plus precision. He gets a lot of life on it due to his three-quarters release point, and it’s one of the best left-handed fastballs in this class. His best secondary pitch is a plus changeup with excellent depth and fade, and it’s a Major League-ready pitch. His third pitch is an average slider that isn’t commanded nearly as well, and there are concerns about his inability to spin a breaking ball.
Sale would likely be 92-93 mph with the fastball, presumably with a good changeup and a mediocre slider with likely struggles against batters from both sides of the plate. Against RHB, his arm slot and fastball movement would be exposed at lower velocities that would only be compensated for with good command of both the fastball and the change. LHB would of course be an easier proposition thanks to a groundball machine for a heater, but even there it's easy to imagine the somewhat slower fastball inducing fewer whiffs on the slider, especially if it too slows a tick.
After a full year in the pen, I think we can raise our expectations somewhat. For one, I probably hedged my bets to excess regarding Sale's fastball velocity. Sale's averaged a hair over 95 mph for his short MLB career and losing 2-3 mph is possible, but 0-2 is more likely. See Jeremy Greenhouse's article and this Book Blog comment thread for details, but in sum I don't think Sale is going to be an outlier. So rather than 92-93, I'm thinking 93-95 mph on his fastball as a starter.
In which case, even his arm slot shouldn't be able to knock him down to average against RHB. On top of that, I think we can officially apologize to Ms. Jackson because his slider's for real. Thanks to this post over at A's Nation and in particular this amazing table, I now have a very concrete standard to measure a pitcher's stuff against. And no matter how you dice it, Sale's slider has been nasty.
Lefty pitchers normally get whiffs on 27% of swings from right handed batters. Sale got nearly 43%. That's on a pitch without a platoon advantage after the book would have definitely been out on him after his dominant 2010. With the platoon advantage, it was almost 49% compared to the 35% league average. Obviously, it was a plus pitch.
Meanwhile, the change is still very much there. For his career, he's whiffed 37% of righties compared to the 27% league average.
It's not to say he won't come back to the ground somewhat, he will. Studies have consistently shown about a 17% boost in K's for pitchers who move from starting to relief, among other helpful stat line nudges. Starting is more difficult and taxing than relief. But even after a straight statistical adjustment, the suggestion is that Sale should be average to somewhat better as a starter. And knowing what we do about his stuff and the coaching staff, it's likely to be a matter of time before he starts to cut his walk rate and really put it all together. I'll again stick with my preferred cautious optimism and say he'll need more reps before he can start putting a dent in his BBs.
Beyond that, there are various caveats to throw out. He's skinny, his slider velo is a little lower than I'd like, his arm slot, etc. Most of them are obvious if you've seen him pitch. He's a mold-breaker, which is likely what caused his falling to us in the draft in the first place. But if ever there was an organization built to nurture this exact pitcher, it's the White Sox.
Overall, the outlook is very bright, brighter than I suspected a year ago. I'll have to ask Coop my forgiveness and a light penance. I'm hoping he'll decide sticking through the rest of the 2012 season will be more than enough.
*And nothing else.
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Thanks for the optimism
It’s a perfect read for the post-Thanksgiving work stupor.
Wur gunna win Cy Youngzz!!
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 25, 2011 9:23 AM CST reply actions
personally i'm looking forward to a fresh start. the team is stale with buehrle, danks, floyd, konerko, quentin.
blow it up like a firework as katy perry would say. trade everybody who isn’t cuban.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
oh come on i like katy perry.
and Ke$ha too. their songs make me want to shake my tuchas.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
so the good players make the team stale?
get rid of buehrle, danks, floyd, konerko, and quentin, and you have something more akin to rotting, maggot-laden flesh. not sure if that is really preferable.
the whole organization is stale.
the best way to get new people is dumping the good ones. its a new year.
now its time for change. nothing stays the same. now its time for change. as motley crue would say :)
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
actually id keep sale too.
so we’ll start negotiations by saying everyone is available other than sale, viciedo and ramirez. take your pick from there.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
start with Kenny then
in theory you may be right. but KW is not the guy to run a rebuilding job and deal vets for prospects. completely the antithesis of his entire MO.
pretty close though
full analysis would take more time than what I have, but post-WS, the only older-for-younger deals I can recall KW making are Garcia for Floyd/Gio and Vasquez for Flowers/Lillibridge/etc.( I suppose you could toss in Jackson/Teahen for Stewart/Frasor but that was primarily a salary dump.) And those moves were not made with rebuilding in mind. KW is a “win-now” guy—I doubt he can shift gears enough to do a wholesale rebuild.
unfortunately, given KW's trade history, we'd get little more than salary relief for those guys.
so the problem is blowing it up isn’t necessarily gonna replenish our farm system, or position us well for the future. it would just make the 2012 sox much, much worse with a lower payroll. that wouldn’t be fun.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
But just think about all that extra money that Jerry and the other owners could pocket!
Isn’t that a type of win we can all enjoy?
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Nov 25, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
You are one fascinating individual...
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 25, 2011 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
I still think he's a composite
like that band of Japanese pop stars that were all digital creations.
Dave Martinez woulda had that.
everything will be fine if our new manager remembers the important adage...
“nothing venchie’d, nothing gained.”
White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.
by greenlight on Nov 25, 2011 2:11 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
I'm just a tiny bit sad that Sick 'n Nasty won't be a part of our repertoire anymore.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
i don't think i've seen this posted anywhere on here.
hope everyone had a happy thanksgiving.
During the recent general managers’ meetings in Milwaukee, Williams told the story of a “very well-respected psychologist” (whose name he declined to reveal) who does personality testing for the military, large corporations and professional sports organizations.
“This psychologist was asked, ‘Of all the people you’ve tested, who impressed you the most in terms of their capabilities to lead?’” Williams said. “And his reply was, ’There’s one guy who’s capable of being the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And if he were in the military, he would achieve four-star general status.’ I’ll give you one guess who the person was.”
Hint: His initials are RV.
“The point is, [Ventura] is a cut above,” Williams said. “If he could have been a four-star general, I think he’s probably equipped to run a baseball team. And he’s probably equipped to lead this group of guys.”
wait, there’s more.
“In our situation, I think the [biggest] risk would have been not hiring Robin,” Williams said.
and
After hiring Ventura, Williams compiled a list of bench coaches from the “grizzled veteran” school. But when Ventura told him he wanted former big league catcher Mark Parent, Williams deferred to his new manager’s judgment.
“Robin came back to me and said, ’I’ve got my guy, this is who I want, and there is no one else,”’ Williams said. “Now that I’ve spent some time with Mark Parent, I know exactly what he’s talking about.”
oh kenny. he’s like the jake peavy of GMs. on the bright side, these quotes could hopefully lead to a creative nickname for ventura. any takers?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Kim Jong-il thinks this is a bit over the top.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Nov 25, 2011 6:55 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
Lets not be cute
Lets just call him Rommel.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Then you're onboard with the Desert Fox?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Isn't he Vichy until proven otherwise?
by Jim Margalus on Nov 25, 2011 10:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ah yes, the Vichy regime
Will last four years and be squelched along with its overlords.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Yeah, any and all military references are good by me.
Who was it that was campaigning (heh) for a prohibition on said references?
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
The foot fetishist.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
The only way I'd like this more was if KW told that story and said "that person is me."
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Nov 25, 2011 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
he can really talk some garbage, cant he?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
"don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning"
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
"white liquid in a bottle has to be milk."
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I am not impressed
unless RW = GSP (Patton).
You magnificent bastard.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
Kenny's kind of nuking Robin's ability to "under-promise, over-deliver"
Dave Martinez woulda had that.
i just re-read this part. i would like you all to do the same. what does this mean? what are we? are we not a baseball team? frankly, i'm baffled.
If he could have been a four-star general, I think he’s probably equipped to run a baseball team. And he’s probably equipped to lead this group of guys.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I'm sure we can count on him to be hopelessly out of touch with the men he's leading, not unlike many four-stars.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
do you listen to "this american life"?
have you ever heard episode 436, the psycopath test? if not, i highly recommend it. act one is very interesting and act two is hilarious as jon ronson talks to the former ceo of sunbeam.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/436/the-psychopath-test
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Yeah, just listened.
Pretty good. I was actually surprised to hear how difficult it is to be labeled a psychopath. I often wonder about the mental health/intelligence of players and management. Baseball is so damn competitive, and yet so insular and familial (at least at the major-league level). Perhaps there are actually very few psychos in the White Sox organization.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
It means baseball is like war
It also means that KW thinks the Vichy Regime may be able to rally its population behind a mad man.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Hello folks, happy post Thanksgiving.
Padre fan here, read a report you are thinking of trading Carlos Quentin. He’s somebody we could really use and I was wondering what you guy’s would need in terms of prospects to get it done. We’ve got a deep farm and lot’s of decent players to trade. I don’t know you’re club though, so what kind of prospect package are you looking for?
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
mark kotsay.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
oh yeah. and throw in one of the aarons too.
cunningham or poreda.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
i like to punish myself.
i deserve it.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Prospect, prospect. You keep saying that word. What does it mean?
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Nov 25, 2011 8:38 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It has to do with precious metals and ore, yes?
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
i believe it is what one does
after reconnoitering the rim.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Dollar sign.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
The Sox can use just about everything besides 1B/DH types.
And Kenny Williams generally doesn’t trade for players below Double-A, at least as the main part of the package.
by Jim Margalus on Nov 25, 2011 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
We've got James Darnell 3B, Kyle Blanks OF/1B, Will Venable OF ready to go now.
We’re also trading Jason Bartlett and Orlando Hudson if there’s interest there, Pad’s would probably eat a lot of Hudson’s contract. Not sure if you want Clayton Richard back, but he pitched well before his shoulder injury. He could be a valuable addition to the back of the rotation.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
He could be a valuable addition to the back of the rotation
BEFORE his shoulder injury. Just to clarify.
by ParisSox on Nov 26, 2011 6:08 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
It wasn't a serious injury, odds are very good he'll be just fine and ready for the start of the season.
Most pitchers will experience this type of injury at some point in their careers.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
No bartlett and for godssake absolutely no hudson
How about Jaff Decker and Drew Cumberland.?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
No on Decker, Cumberland's out of baseball with anxiety/vertigo issues.
I think Clayton Richard and Joe Wieland are plenty to get it done. That should solidify the rotation for years, allowing you to address free agent dollars to fixing other holes.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
Hey man,
I just thought you might want to read this…It is more than anxiety/vertigo issues. Poor guy.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Wow, that really sucks.
Guy had so much potential, to just get robbed like that is really tragic. Hopefully he finds a way to deal with it without eating himself up.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
The only one of those players I'd even think of wanting is Darnell.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I'd take Richard back.
Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?
by AirTrafficAJ on Nov 26, 2011 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
How about Clayton Richard, Joe Wieland and a PTBNL?
Clayton’s got 3 years of arbitration and Wieland is a top arm in the minors. This would go some way to rebuilding some depth in the rotation so you can focus on other needs.
This deal might be a little too sweet, to be honest.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
Why?
No thanks. Richards out of Petco. Not good.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Don't think so?
I would think somebody like Richard would be on the upside of what Kenny could get for Q since it isn’t really a secret that the Sox need to shed payroll.
Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?
by AirTrafficAJ on Nov 27, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
they don't necessarily need to trade him, especially if they aren't getting a decent offer. looks like buehrle is going to be off the payroll anyway.
*sniff*
Sad but true.
Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?
by AirTrafficAJ on Nov 27, 2011 2:52 PM CST up reply actions

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