Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

The future has changed!

Between the seeming impossibility of Mark Buehrle's return and the now lingering specter of John Danks' departure at the end of the season (or otherwise), the Sox' pitching staff is going to take on a whole new look over the course of the next few years.  As depressing as the impending loss of Buehrle and Danks is (and it really really is), we do at least have Chris Sale to look forward to.*

Probably anyway.  The worried, ever-anxious part of me wonders whether Kenny might have left Torii Hunter and a bag of chips over at Arte Moreno's and Moreno's balking at only getting Beckham in return.

But sure, let's assume all is well and that Chris Sale will be spending his time as a starting pitcher for the Chicago White Sox for some time to come and not, hypothetically, down in Arizona looking like a future Cy Young winner.  If you'll recall, I peered into the crystal ball to see how it might turn out should Sale have started last season.  To recap the post, Sale was very well regarded coming out of the draft.  Here's Andy Seiler:

His fastball is a plus pitch that generally sits 91-94, touching 96, and he commands it with plus precision. He gets a lot of life on it due to his three-quarters release point, and it’s one of the best left-handed fastballs in this class. His best secondary pitch is a plus changeup with excellent depth and fade, and it’s a Major League-ready pitch. His third pitch is an average slider that isn’t commanded nearly as well, and there are concerns about his inability to spin a breaking ball.

Star-divide

Sale quickly showed that to be out of date, sporting a much improved slider.  Nonetheless, my assessment of his chances wasn't exactly glowing:

Sale would likely be 92-93 mph with the fastball, presumably with a good changeup and a mediocre slider with likely struggles against batters from both sides of the plate.  Against RHB, his arm slot and fastball movement would be exposed at lower velocities that would only be compensated for with good command of both the fastball and the change.  LHB would of course be an easier proposition thanks to a groundball machine for a heater, but even there it's easy to imagine the somewhat slower fastball inducing fewer whiffs on the slider, especially if it too slows a tick.

After a full year in the pen, I think we can raise our expectations somewhat.  For one, I probably hedged my bets to excess regarding Sale's fastball velocity.  Sale's averaged a hair over 95 mph for his short MLB career and losing 2-3 mph is possible, but 0-2 is more likely.  See Jeremy Greenhouse's article and this Book Blog comment thread for details, but in sum I don't think Sale is going to be an outlier.  So rather than 92-93, I'm thinking 93-95 mph on his fastball as a starter.

In which case, even his arm slot shouldn't be able to knock him down to average against RHB.  On top of that, I think we can officially apologize to Ms. Jackson because his slider's for real.  Thanks to this post over at A's Nation and in particular this amazing table, I now have a very concrete standard to measure a pitcher's stuff against.  And no matter how you dice it, Sale's slider has been nasty.

Lefty pitchers normally get whiffs on 27% of swings from right handed batters.  Sale got nearly 43%.  That's on a pitch without a platoon advantage after the book would have definitely been out on him after his dominant 2010.   With the platoon advantage, it was almost 49% compared to the 35% league average.  Obviously, it was a plus pitch.

Meanwhile, the change is still very much there.  For his career, he's whiffed 37% of righties compared to the 27% league average.  

It's not to say he won't come back to the ground somewhat, he will. Studies have consistently shown about a 17% boost in K's for pitchers who move from starting to relief, among other helpful stat line nudges.  Starting is more difficult and taxing than relief.  But even after a straight statistical adjustment, the suggestion is that Sale should be average to somewhat better as a starter.  And knowing what we do about his stuff and the coaching staff, it's likely to be a matter of time before he starts to cut his walk rate and really put it all together.  I'll again stick with my preferred cautious optimism and say he'll need more reps before he can start putting a dent in his BBs.

Beyond that, there are various caveats to throw out.  He's skinny, his slider velo is a little lower than I'd like, his arm slot, etc.  Most of them are obvious if you've seen him pitch.  He's a mold-breaker, which is likely what caused his falling to us in the draft in the first place.  But if ever there was an organization built to nurture this exact pitcher, it's the White Sox. 

Overall, the outlook is very bright, brighter than I suspected a year ago.  I'll have to ask Coop my forgiveness and a light penance.  I'm hoping he'll decide sticking through the rest of the 2012 season will be more than enough.

 

*And nothing else.

Comment 69 comments  |  2 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Thanks for the optimism

It’s a perfect read for the post-Thanksgiving work stupor.

by ParisSox on Nov 25, 2011 8:33 AM CST reply actions  

Wur gunna win Cy Youngzz!!

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 25, 2011 9:23 AM CST reply actions  

personally i'm looking forward to a fresh start. the team is stale with buehrle, danks, floyd, konerko, quentin.

blow it up like a firework as katy perry would say. trade everybody who isn’t cuban.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Nov 25, 2011 12:56 PM CST reply actions  

oh come on i like katy perry.

and Ke$ha too. their songs make me want to shake my tuchas.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Nov 25, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

so the good players make the team stale?

get rid of buehrle, danks, floyd, konerko, and quentin, and you have something more akin to rotting, maggot-laden flesh. not sure if that is really preferable.

by vanillablue on Nov 25, 2011 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

the whole organization is stale.

the best way to get new people is dumping the good ones. its a new year.

 now its time for change. nothing stays the same. now its time for change. as motley crue would say :)

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Nov 25, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

actually id keep sale too.

so we’ll start negotiations by saying everyone is available other than sale, viciedo and ramirez. take your pick from there.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Nov 25, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

start with Kenny then

in theory you may be right. but KW is not the guy to run a rebuilding job and deal vets for prospects. completely the antithesis of his entire MO.

by vanillablue on Nov 25, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

pretty close though

full analysis would take more time than what I have, but post-WS, the only older-for-younger deals I can recall KW making are Garcia for Floyd/Gio and Vasquez for Flowers/Lillibridge/etc.( I suppose you could toss in Jackson/Teahen for Stewart/Frasor but that was primarily a salary dump.) And those moves were not made with rebuilding in mind. KW is a “win-now” guy—I doubt he can shift gears enough to do a wholesale rebuild.

by vanillablue on Nov 25, 2011 4:08 PM CST up reply actions  

unfortunately, given KW's trade history, we'd get little more than salary relief for those guys.

so the problem is blowing it up isn’t necessarily gonna replenish our farm system, or position us well for the future. it would just make the 2012 sox much, much worse with a lower payroll. that wouldn’t be fun.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Nov 25, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

You are one fascinating individual...

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 25, 2011 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I still think he's a composite

like that band of Japanese pop stars that were all digital creations.

Dave Martinez woulda had that.

by Nordhagen on Nov 25, 2011 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

everything will be fine if our new manager remembers the important adage...

“nothing venchie’d, nothing gained.”

White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.

by greenlight on Nov 25, 2011 2:11 PM CST reply actions   2 recs

Cheer up,

I promise there will be something and something to feel embarrassed about saying until it is sad something and something is gone.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Nov 25, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

i don't think i've seen this posted anywhere on here.

hope everyone had a happy thanksgiving.

During the recent general managers’ meetings in Milwaukee, Williams told the story of a “very well-respected psychologist” (whose name he declined to reveal) who does personality testing for the military, large corporations and professional sports organizations.
“This psychologist was asked, ‘Of all the people you’ve tested, who impressed you the most in terms of their capabilities to lead?’” Williams said. “And his reply was, ’There’s one guy who’s capable of being the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And if he were in the military, he would achieve four-star general status.’ I’ll give you one guess who the person was.”


Hint: His initials are RV.


“The point is, [Ventura] is a cut above,” Williams said. “If he could have been a four-star general, I think he’s probably equipped to run a baseball team. And he’s probably equipped to lead this group of guys.”

wait, there’s more.

“In our situation, I think the [biggest] risk would have been not hiring Robin,” Williams said.

and

After hiring Ventura, Williams compiled a list of bench coaches from the “grizzled veteran” school. But when Ventura told him he wanted former big league catcher Mark Parent, Williams deferred to his new manager’s judgment.


“Robin came back to me and said, ’I’ve got my guy, this is who I want, and there is no one else,”’ Williams said. “Now that I’ve spent some time with Mark Parent, I know exactly what he’s talking about.”

oh kenny. he’s like the jake peavy of GMs. on the bright side, these quotes could hopefully lead to a creative nickname for ventura. any takers?

http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7272848/exploring-unconventional-managerial-hirings-robin-ventura-mike-matheny

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Nov 25, 2011 6:06 PM CST reply actions  

Lets not be cute

Lets just call him Rommel.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Nov 25, 2011 7:39 PM CST up reply actions  

But what would that make KW

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Nov 25, 2011 7:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Could only be Hitler.

Or were you leading the witness?

The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.

by Uribe Down on Nov 25, 2011 9:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Then you're onboard with the Desert Fox?

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Nov 25, 2011 10:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Ah yes, the Vichy regime

Will last four years and be squelched along with its overlords.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Nov 25, 2011 10:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, any and all military references are good by me.

Who was it that was campaigning (heh) for a prohibition on said references?

The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.

by Uribe Down on Nov 26, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

The foot fetishist.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Nov 26, 2011 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

he can really talk some garbage, cant he?

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Nov 25, 2011 8:42 PM CST up reply actions  

"don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning"

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Nov 25, 2011 8:43 PM CST up reply actions  

"white liquid in a bottle has to be milk."

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Nov 25, 2011 8:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I am not impressed

unless RW = GSP (Patton).

You magnificent bastard.

And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2011 9:30 AM CST up reply actions  

i just re-read this part. i would like you all to do the same. what does this mean? what are we? are we not a baseball team? frankly, i'm baffled.

If he could have been a four-star general, I think he’s probably equipped to run a baseball team. And he’s probably equipped to lead this group of guys.

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Nov 25, 2011 10:07 PM CST up reply actions  

do you listen to "this american life"?

have you ever heard episode 436, the psycopath test? if not, i highly recommend it. act one is very interesting and act two is hilarious as jon ronson talks to the former ceo of sunbeam.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/436/the-psychopath-test

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Nov 26, 2011 5:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, just listened.

Pretty good. I was actually surprised to hear how difficult it is to be labeled a psychopath. I often wonder about the mental health/intelligence of players and management. Baseball is so damn competitive, and yet so insular and familial (at least at the major-league level). Perhaps there are actually very few psychos in the White Sox organization.

The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.

by Uribe Down on Nov 26, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

It means baseball is like war

It also means that KW thinks the Vichy Regime may be able to rally its population behind a mad man.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Nov 25, 2011 10:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Hello folks, happy post Thanksgiving.

Padre fan here, read a report you are thinking of trading Carlos Quentin. He’s somebody we could really use and I was wondering what you guy’s would need in terms of prospects to get it done. We’ve got a deep farm and lot’s of decent players to trade. I don’t know you’re club though, so what kind of prospect package are you looking for?

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Nov 25, 2011 7:30 PM CST reply actions  

mark kotsay.

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Nov 25, 2011 8:08 PM CST up reply actions  

oh yeah. and throw in one of the aarons too.

cunningham or poreda.

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Nov 25, 2011 8:26 PM CST up reply actions  

i like to punish myself.

i deserve it.

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Nov 25, 2011 9:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Prospect, prospect. You keep saying that word. What does it mean?

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Nov 25, 2011 8:38 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

It has to do with precious metals and ore, yes?

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Nov 25, 2011 8:44 PM CST up reply actions  

i believe it is what one does

after reconnoitering the rim.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Nov 26, 2011 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Dollar sign.

And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2011 9:31 AM CST up reply actions  

The Sox can use just about everything besides 1B/DH types.

And Kenny Williams generally doesn’t trade for players below Double-A, at least as the main part of the package.

by Jim Margalus on Nov 25, 2011 10:03 PM CST up reply actions  

We've got James Darnell 3B, Kyle Blanks OF/1B, Will Venable OF ready to go now.

We’re also trading Jason Bartlett and Orlando Hudson if there’s interest there, Pad’s would probably eat a lot of Hudson’s contract. Not sure if you want Clayton Richard back, but he pitched well before his shoulder injury. He could be a valuable addition to the back of the rotation.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Nov 26, 2011 4:40 AM CST up reply actions  

It wasn't a serious injury, odds are very good he'll be just fine and ready for the start of the season.

Most pitchers will experience this type of injury at some point in their careers.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Nov 27, 2011 2:20 AM CST up reply actions  

No bartlett and for godssake absolutely no hudson

How about Jaff Decker and Drew Cumberland.?

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Nov 26, 2011 8:50 AM CST up reply actions  

No on Decker, Cumberland's out of baseball with anxiety/vertigo issues.

I think Clayton Richard and Joe Wieland are plenty to get it done. That should solidify the rotation for years, allowing you to address free agent dollars to fixing other holes.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Nov 27, 2011 2:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Hey man,

I just thought you might want to read this…It is more than anxiety/vertigo issues. Poor guy.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110817&content_id=23335214&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb#disqus_thread

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Nov 29, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Wow, that really sucks.

Guy had so much potential, to just get robbed like that is really tragic. Hopefully he finds a way to deal with it without eating himself up.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Nov 29, 2011 11:45 PM CST up reply actions  

The only one of those players I'd even think of wanting is Darnell.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Nov 26, 2011 9:13 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd take Richard back.

Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?

by AirTrafficAJ on Nov 26, 2011 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

How about Clayton Richard, Joe Wieland and a PTBNL?

Clayton’s got 3 years of arbitration and Wieland is a top arm in the minors. This would go some way to rebuilding some depth in the rotation so you can focus on other needs.

This deal might be a little too sweet, to be honest.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Nov 27, 2011 2:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Why?

No thanks. Richards out of Petco. Not good.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Nov 27, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Don't think so?

I would think somebody like Richard would be on the upside of what Kenny could get for Q since it isn’t really a secret that the Sox need to shed payroll.

Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?

by AirTrafficAJ on Nov 27, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to South Side Sox! Please check our new standards and guide to FanPosts/FanShots before posting.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Archerme_small
The Padded Cell: Wait of the World (part 2 of 2)
61y5zkwuutl__sl500__small
The Ballad of bobpuller
Archerme_small
The Padded Cell: Wait of the World (part 1 of 2)
Tedlangue_small
RRRR: Facebook and socialization
Deadhorse_small
White Sox Minor League Update

Recent FanPosts

Small
Reliever-to-Starter Conversions Update
Small
Is Nate Jones for Real?*
Pair-rose-colored__szo0279_small
A Quarter for your thoughts?
Homersimpson_small
BMO 2027: The Sox Machine Cometh
Img_2130_small
RRRR: Lemon drops melting

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Shamelessly Linking My Review of Rick Morrissey's Ozzie Guillen Book
White Sox offer free tickets to CPD officers
A true hitting guru can fix anything
Tweet from Jake Peavy
The White Sox's Black Hole Problem, And Other Observations From A Day Game
Get to the choppa!
Dan Rubenstein heads to Columbus, Ohio to meet Hall of Fame legends Ricky Henderson, Frank Thomas,...
Sox Are Shiftless MFers!
Jake Peavy, AL Pitcher of the Month for the April, is back to 2007 form. While outperforming his preseason projections, is he really up there with the best in baseball? Short answer: yes.

See full post on Beyond the Box Score
A 2 part podcast with Oney Guillen (Ozzie's Son)

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Yahoo_full_count

Managing Editor

Tedlangue_small Jim Margalus

Editors

Deadhorse_small larry

Sealab_murphy_small colintj

Img_2130_small homesickalien

Omar_small U-God

Authors

10083hb_small KenWo4LiFe

Archerme_small Uribe Down