Williams could renovate White Sox beyond recognition
At the general managers and owners meetings in Milwaukee two weeks ago, Kenny Williams said the interest in his players was so strong, "you'd think we had a team out there that actually got into the playoffs."
Other teams are still intrigued with what he's got, if Peter Gammons knows anything about anything. As Chuck Garfien relayed, "Many MLB GMs tell Peter Gammons that when they get to winter meetings, they want to talk to Kenny Williams."
Who knows how much of this is true, and that's part of what makes the hot stove season barrels o' fun. But I'm already preparing to clear out next week for some serious writing, because the stage is set for Williams to renovate the White Sox into an unrecognizable form.
He faces an uphill climb to turn around a team that's both bloated and sinking, but he has an interesting combination to work with:
- They have enough pitching to contend, even after a trade.
- With the exception of Chris Sale, no one Sox player would cost an unfathomable amount in a trade.
That's not saying Alexei Ramirez or Paul Konerko could be moved, but when looking at the roster, the White Sox don't have anybody who can be penciled in for a three or four years' worth of genuine surplus value. Sale is their best bet, if he can make the transition to starting. Dayan Viciedo is behind him in line, but his ceiling is lower due to an already higher salary and the Scott Boras factor.
Common sense would suggest that, if the Sox have little to build around, then they don't have much of an organization. That's probably the case, but in lieu of real structure, they have license to go nuts.
They are strongest where the demand is the greatest: pitching. They also have four or five different avenues to pursue an offensive upgrade. That combination creates an enormous pool of talent to pick from, and which can create a buttload of permutations that could result in a real improvement.
Slowly but surely, the spectrum of possibilities reveals itself. Everybody assumes Carlos Quentin is on his way out. There's no talk of a contract extension for John Danks. Word on the street is that Williams is fine with dealing him, or Gavin Floyd, or maybe even the both of them. Teams are inquiring about Sergio Santos (whose contract is as flippable as they get).
It's quite possible the Sox could trade any of these players without their chances taking a real hit, and that's where it gets really interesting. What if trading Quentin nets a power reliever and a so-so second baseman? That makes Santos even more expendable, and now Gordon Beckham is in play for a change-of-scenery trade. Santos himself is worth a multi-player package, and if he can bring in a young starter who receives Don Cooper's pre-approval, then there's your Danks and/or Floyd insurance. And so on and so forth, until the Sox re-sign Mark Buehrle because no other starting pitcher is making huge money from 2013 to 2015. Also, Jason Heyward ends up in right field somehow, which is awesome.
Or, maybe Danks will be the first domino. Or somebody else, like Matt Thornton. The Sox have so many ways to improve their team that the sequences seem endless. At this point, I'd only be surprised if we aren't surprised. Multiple times.
And I imagine this excites Williams to no end, too. From the hiring of Robin Ventura onward -- remember Paul Konerko, player-manager? -- Williams has exited his oppressive long-term relationship looking, sounding and acting like Kenny Williams Plus. Essentially, he's a guy just got divorced and is hellbent on either reclaiming his life or destroying it. The fun part: We'll have no idea to tell which course he's chosen until it's too late.
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Next week...
Kenny will trade TCQ, Floyd, Danks, and Santos.
The remnants of the White Sox will learn to harmonize and compete on “The Sing Off.”
What?! I ain't no Professor Pickles!
All in philosophy!
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Nov 29, 2011 11:12 AM CST up reply actions
Jim.
Yesterday, “ass”. Today, “buttload”. Fer Chrissakes, if you want to be Nationwide please lose the fixation. ;)
I like the optimism of this piece. We has talent! Just not chemistry.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
I agree
Nice to see something besides the normal doom and gloom predicted by most. Now about the faith in kw executing …..oh boy.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Nov 29, 2011 8:23 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'm hoping Kenny is in stealth mode rather than "I'm cleaverer than you" mode
White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.
So swift and so sharp you sometimes don't see it moving.
by mechanical turk on Nov 29, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
more deadly than the stroke of an axe through ya back
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Unfortunately, with the brain-trust across town
Kenny will be trying to steal attention and column inches by trying to show how “smart” he is. Needless to say, I’m bracing for the worst starting Monday, and I’m absolutely terrified of the monsoon that is about to hit.
In a very tepid defense of Kenny...
I think the second Swisher trade and dealing Hudson for Jackson are the only truly awful moves he’s made post 2005. In fact, the 3 players that currently are hamstringing the club (Dunn, Rios, and Peavy to a lesser extent) all were acquired in moves that were justifiable at the time in my mind. I have some sympathy for Kenny in that it would have been difficult to predict that Dunn and Rios would become the 2 worst players in major league baseball based on previous performance.
While I don’t have any confidence that Kenny will do well when he trades Floyd, Danks, and Quentin this offseason, I similarly don’t feel certain he will fail.
All that being said, I wish the Sox would move Kenny further upstairs and give Hahn a shot.
by hitlesswonder on Nov 29, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
Teahen and Linebrink were bad but minor in cost
But not truly awful IMO. And while a bunch of small bad moves do add up to a significant drag on the club, neither was the same as giving up Swisher (or sweeney and gio if you prefer) for nothing or 6 years of Hudson for a 1 year of mediocre pitching.
by hitlesswonder on Nov 29, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
The Teahan and Linebrink signings pale in comparison to Swisher 1 & 2 and the Hudson (lets call it Hudson/Holmberg) trade but they were fucking horrible too
To the point where we had to give up Jackson and his compensation pick just to get rid of Teahen and basically had to pay the Braves millions of dollars to take Linebrink off our hands. Lets not underestimate the shittiness of those two moves. Compound all that with the fact, KW thought it was a good idea to pay award Teahen with a contract extension for doing nothing in a White Sox uniform. While I don’t blame KW, as you said, for Dunn, Rios & Peavy…I was happy to acquire all three players…KW was the one that acquired them, not Cashman, not Epstein, not Towers, not Beane, not any other GM acquired those players because KW OVERvalued them. In my mind the last roster move KW was successful on (not counting the draft i.e. Sale, Beckham???) was getting Quentin and even then 2008 turned out to be his most useful year with us.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I should say, the last roster move KW was successful on, SO FAR.
because we have to wait and see on Viciedo and De Aza.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Humber could be lumped in with those two as well.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
True that but can we attribute that to Coop? and I'll admit I absolutely hated the idea of him as our 5 at the beginning of last year and it can be found in the SSS archives
It will be very interesting to see how Viciedo, De Aza and Humber respond in 2012…I am even excited to see how Dunn, Rios and Peavy will respond. (provided all these players are still on our roster) ST can’t come soon enough.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I love Humber for next year
I really feel like folks are sleeping on him. I like the pitcher he developed into by the end of the season. Fingers crossed.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I agree with you.
We’ll have to do the “double or nothing” on someone else.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
i like humber too.
assuming he doesn’t get killed by a line drive. seriously. that guy has the worst reflexes i’ve ever saw from a pitcher.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Better than yours.
Calm down.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
absolutely not i was a gold glover on the hill.
my struggles came when my coaches wanted to take advantage of my arm and put me down at 3rd base.
i was a disaster there.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
the first time i played there i made 7 errors in an all star game.
this was when i was like 9 or something. i don’t know if that stuck with me but every time i played there ever again it was a serious adventure. i played short pretty well after that. i don’t know what my deal was. i was like steve sax or something. all of my throws would tale into the runner. it was a frightening experience.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i think he's Loaiza-lite
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I don't think that's a fair comp.
Humber’s new pitch is a legit slider, not a cutter. By pitch value, the slider is more effective, the most effective pitch in baseball. Loaiza didn’t have a curve, could barely top 90, and broke out several years later than Humber. He had more working against him.
Humber seems more like Floyd-lite. Which for his role and salary would be nice.
i didn't really mean they're similar pitchers
i think their production will be similar. one big year. one good year and a nice trade chit.
though it looks like Loaiza collapsed more than i expected, but whatever. i don’t think there’s anything particularly special about Humber. he’s exactly the kind of guy they should be finding as many as they can, building them up and selling them off.
if he’s actually special in some way then i guess they need to make the most of their cheap guys. but i’d rather see them give him a half year and trade him once they’ve “proved” he’s for real.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
let's be sure to keep in mind that the primary reason the slider is the most effective pitch in baseball by pitch value
is quantity.
You should really do something about your lack of followers.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
by Uribe Down on Nov 30, 2011 1:05 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
I defended and continue to defend Swisher one
My problems with KW are his smaller deals and propensity to overpay for marginal talent lately.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
this
the first swisher move was an attempt to acquire a star. you have to pay for em as far as i know.
by obnoxious american on Nov 29, 2011 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
I agree...I was unhappy at Swisher 2 in which he was dumped for junk
Actually, that deal points out something that I think KW has done often which is find a guy he projects as a breakout player and then proceeds to pay for that player as if they had already broken out. Marquez was that guy in the Swisher 2 trade. Teahen was a similar move…
by hitlesswonder on Nov 29, 2011 3:59 PM CST up reply actions
Swisher 1 probably gave up one too many young players
but it’s certainly defensible. Swisher 2 and Hudson/Holmberg are the only really obvious bombs before the fact.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
and i continue to defend swisher two. best trade kenny ever made. there's too much nick swisher in this thread.
fuck nick swisher.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
by BuehrleMan on Nov 29, 2011 10:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, if you're going to be that way...
If you eliminate the draft, waiver claims, trades and free agent signings, KW has never acquired a useful player for us.
The White Sox have gone through extended periods of not ever having a dream of contending, and even with Swisher, Dunn, Rios, shit, Jaime Navarro, we’ve pretty much been a spring training contender for the last 20 years, give or take a couple rebuilding years. It’s probably not going to be fun being an Astro fan for the next 5-7 years.
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Nov 29, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
Have a real hard time bashing Swisher 1
Picking up a guy coming off a couple 3.5-4 win seasons who is 27 and signed to a reasonable contract made all the sense in the world. Along with Quentin and Alexei, that was a nice off season. Then of course Swisher has the inexplicable White Sox nosedive, before going on to be productive again as soon as he leaves.
That’s what makes judging KW so difficult. Some things that made all the sense in the world end up being the biggest failures.
What do you think is the best explanation?
For a guy his age falling off a cliff, then immediately returning to form? I understand him sucking in center, but just looking strictly at hitting.
Offensive Runs Above Replacement
2006-37
2007-39
2008-8
2009-30
2010-35
bos referred to it.
his being a poor fit in the kong/dye/thome clubhouse is probably the best explanation.
there is him being put at leadoff and other stuff too, but i can’t be bothered remembering all of that nonsense.
I get that your surroundings can give a bump either way
But it’s still baseball. It isn’t like his teammates can freeze him out of the offense and not pass him the ball. Being in a crap work environment is tough, but it is still individual against individual out there. Probably not thinking about your relationship with coworkers when somebody is throwing an object 90 mph at you.
ugh that is still so sickening
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I wouldn't call $19 million a small move
Seems like kind of a high floor for truly awful. But then you did qualify it as a very tepid defense, so fair enough.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Maybe, but it highlighted one of the flaws in his philosophy.
Trading away all your minor league talent means you have to acquire overpriced, marginal talents like Pierre and Teahen.
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 29, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
I think Pierre was a shit-ton more valuable/cost-effective than Teahen.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
i didn't have a problem with getting pierre... or teahen for that matter.
the problem came with the teahen extension and the refusal to bench pierre when it became obvious that we had better options.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Agree
but the latter is on Ozzie, not KW.
"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473
by NorthSidePaulie on Nov 29, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
kind of. kenny could have forced his hand and made the call up though
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Guarantee he uses "taint punch" in Outsider 2012.
"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."
Fnord
A conspiracy for clicks. Regardless, you have me intrigued.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Trading Beckham double edge sword...
Is his value to low to get a big return and if he then pans out sox would be kicking themselves, but does he still have enough value to get some of value in return before another bad season might kill all his value… Thats a very tough evaluation to make, for me I would rather go down with the ship and keep him.
As far as growing rumors of a possible sox fire sale… I still dont move danks or ramirez, danks can be resigned with money coming off the books next year and ramirez based on some WAR measurements is our best player who is under our control for a long time, santos is an interesting name if you get a big haul on him its tough to turn down since closers are so volital. Floyd, Quentin, Thornton, I would move them all right now. After that if you really want to make waves you have to get AJ and PK to waive their no trade clauses which I have no idea if they would be willing to do.
Royals are signing Broxton.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/royals-to-sign-jonathan-broxton-.html
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Royals be serious in 2012!
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
So I'm told
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Numerous times.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
interesting. always liked broxton
but i have a feeling he’s about done.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Elbow issues.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
Wither Soria?
Would Broxton be the closer, a set up guy or is Soria now on the block? Wait, what do I care about the Royals off-season moves? Oh yeah, it’s because I love hot, hot stove action! Awww yeah!
Well, boys, it's a round ball and a round bat and you got to hit the ball square. ~Joe Schultz, 1969
MLB trade rumors says
Broxton will set up, unless Soria is traded or moved into the rotation.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
The White Sox certainly never lack in excitement.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Nov 29, 2011 8:41 AM CST reply actions
Predicting the speed and depth of the crash provide a form of excitement.
What?! I ain't no Professor Pickles!
Hard to jump from a basement window.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Primanti Bros. sandwiches. Steak dinner (with the fries and coleslaw on it), boom.
by Yinka Double Dare on Nov 29, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
only city I've seen where fries come on a salad
…or in a pizza, or (as with Primanti’s) inside a sandwich.
No wonder the UPMC medical system is the area’s largest employer.
Do you believe that Kenny, after tossing the matches, can assemble a club you'd like to watch?
And no Cuban pipedreams :)
I fear a squander-fest, if Kenny starts dealing.
Dave Martinez woulda had that.
I'm willing to watch him try.
the sox could run out the SSS all stars and i’ll watch anyway… I’m not opposed to trading anyone except for alexei and sale.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
If I don't get to see at least a year of Dayan...Houston we have a problem
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
i was going to put him down... but maybe if he's in a package someone like Heyward becomes a legit option.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Is there any indication that Heyward is even a possibility to be traded?
He had a horrible sophomore year but his stock couldn’t have fallen that much to illicit a package we could even come close to offer to acquire him.
Heyward’s B-R page has him compared to Sam Crawford at age 20 and Boog Powell at age 21, which is a disjointed thought from the one above but one that I find interesting and thought I had to share. That is damn good company.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
never talked about trading him but not guaranteeing him a spot either.
http://twitter.com/#!/mlbbowman/status/119874529316179968
earlier this week there was also talk (that sort of got shot down) about mccutchen being available.
i love viciedo… but shit id trade him and sale to pittsburgh for mccutchen. probably wouldn’t be enough.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i'd like to see what value you could get out of thornton
before he declines into the toilet.
by obnoxious american on Nov 29, 2011 10:04 AM CST reply actions
I'd be super opti if Toe Boat were to retire to pursue his dream of writing a Broadway musical based on the life of Zamfir
White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.
Jim, the last sentence of your post says it all.
Sabermetrics hurt my head, just give me the facts.
this sort of reminds me of when Veeck bought the team in the 80's
next thing you know we had Ralph Garr, Jim Spencer, Alan Bannister, and Paul Richards. Except for ’77, those were some dark years.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1976-transactions.shtml
If you pull the trigger on rebuilding, where does it end?
South Side Hitmen were the shit,
as was Dick Allen. Maybe you’ve heard of him? I’d take that kind of excitement over last year’s mess.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
Hell yeah !!!!
Sabermetrics hurt my head, just give me the facts.
Allen was gone by the time Veeck bought the team
and while 77 was fun, we traded Gossage and Dent for a one-season party. and we still finished 3rd behind the stupid royals and rangers.
Zisk and Gamble were gone after 77, while the Goose fired his way into the HOF and Dent had a solid career. different days— sure, veeck had no $ and did the best he could. but shoot— goose and dent were our guys. would loved to have seen those guys play their careers with us.
What, you didn't care for Harry Chappas? No Ralph Garr or Claudell Washington love?
Or my favorite, Ron Blomberg?
Those were the days my friend, we thought they’d never end…
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Don't forget Ron Schueler!
Or do.
The quick-fix veterans didn’t make much of an impression, but Veeck did develop the farm system, getting Baines, Burns, Hoyt, Dotson, Trout, and Baumgarten up in time to contribute to his last team in 1980. The first four were key parts of the 1983 division-winners, and the last two were dealt for useful pieces.
true enough
Hoyt was a add-in on the Dent trade, and I seem to recall talking w Veeck or somebody at the office saying they were real high on him when they got him. Dotson came from the Angels, I think the rest you mentioned were drafted.
I was especially fond of watching the highly touted rotation of...
Baumgarten, Richard Wortham, Jack Kucek and Mike Proly not develop.
For some sick reason, I always thought it was intriguing that Alan Bannister had killed a man in an exhibition game. (Japanese players didn’t slide like American players on the double play, and Bannister nailed a baserunner right in the forehead on a relay throw.)
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Nov 29, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
i remember the 4 lefties
kravec, trout, wortham, baumgarten. then burns.. we were a lefty factory back then
Loved Burns.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
Big surprise.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
Watch it kid.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Treading on a cloak, my man.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
I found a film of chi and wu going to a bar after a game in the 70s
you can view it here
by hoodlight on Nov 29, 2011 5:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hopefully Gordon Beckham takes the Alex Gordon path to success offensively....
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I really think that Beckham will get better offensively, the things he was doing wrong are correctable
he is still young, his mind seems to be okay, a new regime is coming in which may be refreshing (for everyone not just Beckham).
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
If RV is qualified to lead men into battle
he can certainly help raise a pitiful batting average.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Don't forget, Walker is gone now.
Beckham is gonna hit .300 from here on out.
by South Side Expat on Nov 29, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
Good comp...
and raises an interesting question (which has probably been beaten to death). If Beckham strugges again, should they send him down to AAA to get his feet under him again? Worked for Gordon.
Alex was also learning a new position. Without that factor there's probably less of a case for the same treatment for Beckham.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Thorton first domino
If Thorton goes,he goes to the Yankees.
That could start a chain reaction.
Boom goes the dynamite!
i think thornton will go to boston.
and that move will be one of the final ones.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Boston needs more relief arms.
Really?
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
Thornton
I think Thorton to the Yankees for Romine.
That makes AJ expendable,and then everything is on the table.
i think it will take a starter to pull romine. i hope you're right
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Yankee prospects are always overrated
The Yankees don’t have much room to hide Romine anymore. It is time they deal him, he is “Yankee ripe” and he probably isn’t as good as everyone thinks he is but he makes better contact and may have a better upside defensively. If we got Romine for Thornton that would be okay because of Thornton’s contract but don’t expect Romine to be some kind of stud or Yadier Molina defensive whiz. IMO
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I was comparing him to Flowers on contact and defense.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
oh i don't think he's the next big thing. but i do think it will cost them something more than thornton to get him
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
How is Romine's defense?
Because I’m not overly impressed with his offensive numbers.
What do you hope to do with AJ?
He’s got his 10 and 5, and he’s going into the backloaded year of his contract.
by South Side Expat on Nov 29, 2011 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
AJ
I see AJ going to Florida along with Zach Stewart.LoMo coming back.
You're a crazy person.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
The Marlins apparently laughed at the suggestion of including Morrison for Gio.
He isn’t coming here for AJ and Stewart if that’s the case.
they aren't trading that dude for aj and stewart. why on earth would they do that?
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Lo Mo
He is not a core player for that team.
He is a first baseman and he is not their best first baseman.
As we know there is a lot of friction going both ways and it has not been resolved to anyone’s satisfaction.
Their catchers suck and Stewart is still highly regarded cheap pitching.
Left handed catchers are rare,and he and Ozzie make a cute cuple.
So then you are trolling, good to know.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Their catchers suck
Did you look at the numbers before coming up with this idea? John Buck is owed $12 million over the next two years and was about as useful as AJ in 2011 (1.8 WAR to AJ’s 1.7 WAR).
Why would the Marlins add $6 million in payroll and trade away a useful player to add a second starting catcher when it’s not even an area of need for them?
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Florida Catcher
Sports weekly just reviewed the Marlins.
It talked about how disappointing the catching was.
AJ is a homeboy and left handed as I noted.
If we can trade Aj the Marlins could certainly trade Buck.
They are willing to spend the money to entertain the fans
and as you know AJ is very entertaining.
That almost reads like verse.
Right down to the title-looking subject.
by Jim Margalus on Nov 29, 2011 4:17 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah but why would they trade a pretty good player like Morrison just to get a catcher who isn't that different from the guy they already have?
The minimal gain of a left-handed entertainer isn’t worth it. They have much greater needs for a starting pitcher (no, not Stewart) and a third baseman. I’d be pretty surprised if catcher was their priority.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
a lefty in the back end of their bullpen? absolutely
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
At Thorn-dog's price?
Not so sure.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
by winningugly on Nov 29, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
i think so. they need a lefty especially if they are going to stick with bard as closer.
i could also see texas matching up.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I'd be all for trading Thornton, as MLBTR says Kenny is trying to do.
I think the deal he signed last offseason had closing in mind, but $12 million over 2 years is a pretty hefty commitment for a middle reliever on a team with so little financial flexibility. Crain, Ohman and Frasor are combining for another $10.75M next season alone, but subtract too many pieces and you end up having to fill out the rest of your pen with Bukviches, Siscos and Dewon Days.
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
How long is a Dewon Day?
I think it’s, like, 34 hours.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.
I've been working in the bullpen! all the live dewon day!
I’ve been working in the bullpen just to give hundreds of runs away! Can you hear the bullpen phone a’ringing……etc
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Nov 29, 2011 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Hypothetical...
Assuming these deals all brought back a decent return (read somewhere between Swisher 2 and the Danks/McCarthy) how would you feel if the Sox traded all of the following players this offseason?
Konerko
AJ
Quentin
Danks
Floyd
Thornton
Crain
I think this would pretty much constitute a fire-sale, and you might even throw Santos and Alexei into that conversation if you want to get bold and really bring back a pile of young players. I would expect to get back quite a bit of young talent for all of those players and future financial commitments (past Rios/Dunn/Peavy) would basically be non-existent.
Not saying I’m hoping for this, just wondering how everyone would feel if it happened. Obviously that would depend to an extent on the return, but I’m just asking in theory.
Hypothetical
Frasor rather than Crain.
Yes I can certainly see it.
i don't think i could take the emotional hit of losing both buehrle and paulie.
the rest of them can go.
I didn't know the welsh were so tender-hearted
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
losing Buerle
With all that payroll leaving you can sign Buerle and still buy drinks for the house.
that's not even an effort there.
poor.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
What would be the point of re-signing Buehrle after all that?
There’s no way that team is going to contend, why waste resources on a veteran starter who won’t be around by the time they are ready to compete again?
If the Sox wanted to sell everyone off, they should get a different GM
Someone who has a better track record of evaluating minor league talent.
by hitlesswonder on Nov 29, 2011 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
i wouldn't like trading ramirez. the rest? find the best offers.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
The league wouldn't like this
probably too much all at once, making this a very noncompetitive team, but I wouldn’t mind seeing a full-on rebuild right now. You’d also clear a lot of payroll to add on again in 2013.
by league, I'm thinking of the commissioner's office
haven’t they turned down, or threatened to turn down, trades that made teams especially noncompetitive (or am I smoking something really good?)?
by son_of_sophist on Nov 29, 2011 4:57 PM CST up reply actions
You're assuming a ton of trades would eliminate the Sox from contention.
I’m saying that’s not necessarily the case. If pitching is truly in demand, one multi-player package in return can lead to another trade, which leads to another multi-player package and another trade… and in then end, it’s a drastically different roster, but maybe not much worse for the wear.
by Jim Margalus on Nov 29, 2011 5:20 PM CST up reply actions
the commissioner does have two avenues for blocking trades
1. if the trade includes over a certain amount of dollars (3MM a year I think?) the trade requires commish approval
2. ‘best interests of the game’ clause, he can do whatever he wants.
I’d imagine #1 is what sos is referring to.
he cannot do whatever he wants under the guise of the best interests of the game.
and he’s not referring to #1.
The commissioner blocked a trade of Alex Rodriguez
or am I remembering wrong?
expectations are premeditated resentments - cheshirecat
I believe it was actually the union
They didn’t approve of the salary restructuring I think.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Correct.
They put the kibosh on the deal that would have sent him to Boston.
Manny Ramirez would have been a Ranger and we would have gotten Nomar.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
with Herm it might've not been a complete disaster.
by Shoeless In SC on Nov 30, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
unless herm is cool with injecting steroids into his poop chute... it had disaster all over it
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
you mean directly through the anus and into the rectum?
I just winced at the thought.
by Shoeless In SC on Nov 30, 2011 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
You would have hated it because Maggs would have gone to the Red Sox
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 1, 2011 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
it wasn't really a salary restructuring.
it was a salary reduction. which is a violation of the collective bargaining agreement.
Nice optimistic piece Jim.
I’m fine with trading players provided the long term is considered. I’ve mentioned before that I’m ok with the Rios, Dunn & Peavey debacles as long as something is being done to right this ship. I guess I’m saying retool & rebuild. I’m dubious KW has the wherewithal to produce the optimum results. My fingers are crossed!
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Optimism is good.
More and more these days I wouldn’t mind a creative rebuilding spree. If it blows up in Kenny’s face, fine. Anything but a 2011 retread, please.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
he-who-shall-remain-nameless moving on to Montana makes a 2011 retread highly unlikely
White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.
'07 was torture to watch but it begat '08.
I’m hoping for a repeat.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
LoMo
This guy will not be in Florida next year.He is a perfect fit for the Sox.He is available.
IF they don’t want what we have then we can trade for what they would like.If we have him
on our team,we don,t have to play Rios.We could trade PK.We could get rid of Dunn and eat salary if necessary.We have been right handed at first base for over twenty years
this guy belongs in a White Sox uniform
BOOM.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
no.
boom goes the steak dinner.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
anything to get that 20-HR power at first, huh
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
20 hr power
Konerko had 5 more home runs at this stage of his career.
great, except Konerko also had hit about 50 more in the minors than Morrison had at the same age
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
But there's a dispute between him and his team! So obviously his team will just give him away for nothing!
Swisher 2 has forever warped White Sox fans’ perception of how organizations get rid of talented assholes.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
by big_fun on Nov 30, 2011 12:01 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
did we need any more reasons to dislike the red sox?
http://tracking.si.com/2011/11/30/report-boston-red-sox-and-bobby-valentine-reach-agreement/
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Travesty...
Now if he wins the WS and we hear KenWo saying I told you so…travesty. I think that is a horrible fit btw.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
is this one of those times? you know, the times when you say something just for the reaction.
please tell me it is.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
nope i like valentine. been on record for a long time with that.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
looks like some boston players agree with me.
though if i had to choose a side between valentine and most of those fuckwad red sox players i would be on valentine’s side.
http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7299027/source-bobby-valentine-type-not-boston-red-sox-early
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
well i'm sure the guys who were allowed to do whatever the fuck they pleased wouldn't be too happy about valentine getting the call.
he’ll call them out for sure.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
yes. i know.
and i would be on valentine’s side. like i just said.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
If my new boss cut out the pizza parties
I’d be pissed too.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
especially if you worked at chuck e cheese.
because then you wouldn’t have any work. that would be ridiculous.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
more on bobby, compiled by marc normandin
from our boss:
Bobby Valentine plays a character on TV named Bobby Valentine. He’s sort of the Stephen Colbert of baseball. Red Sox fans needn’t worry.
https://twitter.com/AmazinAvenue/status/141707286170189825
and this is probably mostly why people don’t like bobby. because they’ve forgotten what he was like as a manager (because it was a decade ago) and that’s been replaced by an ESPN TV personality.
but let’s remind ourselves of a few things, from bobby’s own mouth:
“Speed at the leadoff spot is the most overrated, talked-about thing in baseball, in my opinion,‘’ Valentine said. ’’The guys who hit the most extra-base hits bat third or fourth. The leadoff hitter’s usually on base when they’re hitting. Why in God’s name do we want the guy who runs the fastest scoring on home runs?
“Secondly, if a guy’s going to steal, unless he has a very, very high stolen-base ratio, why would you ever want to make an out before the best hitters hit?”
hmmm. what does that sound like? moneyball before beane popularized it. more:
Last year, McRae averaged 3.84 pitches per at-bat, meaning he was usually hitting later in the count. Valentine loves to see his players work pitchers hard. Of course, he also wants them to get on base.
If McRae cannot do that, Valentine said he might give Olerud a shot at the job, although he acknowledged that the possibility was a long shot. Olerud has never batted leadoff and is a slow runner, but Valentine said the best leadoff hitter he has had was the not-so-fleet Brian Downing in Texas.
Valentine maintains that stolen bases are more important lower in the order than at the top, and he likes the way that Olerud works pitchers, getting on base and drawing walks (he was seventh in the N.L. in walks last season).
those quotes are from when bill clinton was president. how about something from when obama was president:
Per @dougglanville When Buster Posey got hurt, one of Bobby’s questions was “What was his WAR and how did that rank?” He gets new metrics
and, if you’re in to this sort of thing, per david gassko and his seminal study of the value of managers (which essentially compared how players performed under different managers — adjusting for variables such as age and home ballpark; only managers with 1000+ games included) bobby valentine is one of the best managers ever, worth about 1.35 wins per season. (as points of reference, bobby cox was best, at about 2.3 wins; the worst managers were about -2 wins).
by larry on Nov 30, 2011 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
tanks.
good stuff. i didn’t say anything about him being a bad manager, (well, maybe the response to kenwo could be construed that way but i didn’t mean to imply that. whether he’s a good hire remains to be seen i guess. not that i know of anyone that i think would work better. it seems like the red sox have some players that may be near the top end of the douchebag scale.)just that i disliked him (maybe to have been more accurate could have said disliked his tv personna).
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
nice.
always thought bobby cox was a great on field manager. never thought he was that good, tho, compared to his peers
by Shoeless In SC on Nov 30, 2011 8:17 PM CST up reply actions
Wow
So why in christ’s name does ken like him?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Yeah, from what I've read
he’s one of the most Sabermetric guys around. Very innovative. Probably pisses the scouts and coaches off when talking about the importance of WAR, OPS+, and FIP.
And today we can celebrate our victory around the pike still skewering the rotten skeleton of The Cheat.

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