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White Sox are stuck with a rebuild

So apparently there's still some thought that this team as presently constructed can compete for a division title next season. Baseball being what it is, it certainly could happen. But it simply can't happen without a great deal of luck.

First, let's clarify what's meant by luck. A typical team season will see unexpected breakouts, injuries, sudden declines, the success or failure of new pitches, etc. all spread across the 25 player team. Usually these things more or less cancel out over the long run that is a 162 game season. The end result is an approximately luck-neutral season.

I say approximately because there's actually a lot of variance around a team's talent level. Everyone remembers that year the Royals fluked their way into contention for a while. The Indians last year were such beneficiaries. It's just a part of baseball that sometimes the luck all goes your way. If you combine that with actual talent you get pure dominance. See 2005. But the thing is, if a team needs that kind of luck just to compete, it's in trouble. And that's where the team is after last season's absolute debacle.

Star-divide

When fans try to talk themselves into 2012, they start with pitching. The Sox have consistently churned out great pitching since Don Cooper started coaching them. Even in 2007, despite bad defense and a tough home park, our staff as a whole came through to perform admirably. Yeah, the relief corps was a tire fire, but Coop kept it from spreading to the starters. As the team exists now, that kind of downside is pretty unlikely.

With no further changes after Santos' departure, there are still plenty of veterans to anchor a solid if not dominant pen, along with some upside in Addison Reed. Meanwhile, the starting five is still in good order. Buehrle is of course a big loss, but Chris Sale is a good bet to provide most if not all of Mark's expected production. And with his stuff, it's possible he could break out and become a legitimate ace. The downside is that Zach Stewart is now the emergency fill-in rather than Sale if a major injury were to occur. Between Reed and Sale, most of the bases that are usually covered in a Sox staff will be. But it'll be a bit more flimsy than usual and not likely to be dominant.

The real problems are in the field and at the plate. Everyone knows about Rios and Dunn, of course. Even a substantial rebound from both leaves them respectively below average. Morel and Beckham are still more promise than substance and to expect either to be average isn't rational given their performance. Useful, sure. Not average. De Aza hasn't played a full season at the major league level. Predicting some kind of injury, even given Herm Schneider's wunderbarheit is fairly reasonable, as is regression. Expecting him to be average on the other hand? I would bet against. AJ is still AJ, except a year older. If you want to call him average, fine. But not Quentin. Too injury prone. Viciedo? You're wish-casting at this point.

That leaves us with Alexei and Paulie. The two legitimately above average position players on the whole roster. Does that sound like enough to carry a team to you? Keep in mind neither are legit MVP types. Paulie hits a ton, Alexei plays great defense and hits well enough. They can't make up for blatant holes at nearly every other position. Mediocre plus two still equals mediocre.

So here's the final tally: below average non-pitching. Above average but not dominant staff. Baseball is comprised of hitting, defense and pitching. Position players are responsible for 2/3 of that equation and that's exactly where the Sox are lacking. If I had to peg it right now, I'd call this version of 2012 an 82-83 wins in true talent. Moreover, the presence of Santos and/or Buehrle on this team do remarkably little to change that.

I actually talked myself up from 80-81 while writing this thing, so maybe things are a little better than I expected. But it's certainly not enough to head off the case for rebuilding. Even without Buehrle, this team costs $110M. How does it make any kind of sense to pay that much money to only sorta kinda maybe hope-and-a-prayer compete? And remember, Kenny has literally used the word "rebuilding". If he backs out now, it'll only be because he's not fielding anything other than lowball offers, which would change the math significantly. If Heyman is right that the Yankees consider one of Betances, Banuelos or Montero to be fair value for John Danks, then Kenny needn't worry. The rebuild is going just fine.

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I'd rather be lucky than good

To me, publicly stating that you are rebuilding may be the cause for lowball offers but then again KW saying he is getting lowball offers can be a negotiating ploy or it could mean we overvalues his players. I would like to think he is a skilled negotiator and all this talk in the media is just part of a plan. For all the hate he gets around here and the complete and abject failure he has been known for recently…he might just be due for some luck himself. Happy hunting KW.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 6:35 AM CST reply actions  

looks like he's anchoring expectations more than adequately

if he went to the winter meetings demanding Ubaldo-type packages for his best chit, he’s at least showing some stones. that’s the kind of price plenty of folks will just walk out on and he probably knew that. contra that Sarris piece in fangraphs, Floyd is the ace of the deck, not Santos.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Rebuild

Nothing to argue with here.A very clear-eyed look at what the future holds.
The question is how do we add to the group that now includes only Alexi and Konerko

by Lil Jimmy on Dec 13, 2011 8:31 AM CST reply actions  

If we're going into rebuild mode, Konerko isn't a piece they'll be building around.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Dec 13, 2011 8:32 AM CST up reply actions  

Alexei may not be either.

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 13, 2011 8:44 AM CST up reply actions  

I could understand trading Alexei if they go with a full-on rebuild.

I’d just be scared to death that KW wouldn’t get nearly enough for him.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 8:59 AM CST up reply actions  

In evaluating KW's recent trades we have the benefit of hindsight

People seem to think KW will never make a trade that actually helps us. I think this is wrong. He is not a fucking idiot.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 9:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Think you took that a little out of context.

My fear of not getting enough back for Alexei has as much to do with the feeling that other teams would not properly value him for what he is as it does with KW.

I agree that hindsight is 20/20, but he’s also made trades that looked just as bad at the time they were made (i.e. Jackson for Hudson). I don’t think there is anything wrong with being worried about such a scenario as it could happen.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 9:15 AM CST up reply actions  

The trades he has made recently were shortsighted because they thought they had a window to win a World Series

I don’t think he is thinking that any longer. The Swisher2 was just emotional garbage. All I see around here is, “I don’t trust KW to rebuild” or “KW is going to get fleeced”. Fuck all that noise. Lets see what happens before we make any judgements because like it or not he is making the decisions. It isn’t a revelation that his most recent trades were horrible but that doesn’t mean every trade he makes is going to be that way. He mortgaged the future because he thought he had a contender (which by the way we all did at this time last year too), now it is time to shift gears.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 9:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh I understand fully

How many times do we have to read about how people think KW can do no right. I get it. Even if they are right, why do I have to keep reading it? I think it is pretty clear we all get where they are coming from. Every thread, “KW is going to get bent over and trade the wrong person for the wrong prospects.” blah blah blah

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions  

I understand all this.

I just don’t understand why this rant came from me being worried about getting enough back for Alexei. I think that’s a pretty valid concern, no matter who the GM is.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

I apologize and I probably took it out of context but the whole KW thing has reached critical mass in my head

How much negativity about a guy’s ballclub can a guy take? That being said, I don’t understand why you would think other GM’s wouldn’t properly value a SS like Alexei? He has power and excellent defense. It is not the GM’s voting for the Gold Glove.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Anytime my team is trying to trade a guy that I would deem extremely valuable...

I’m worried about getting enough in return. You don’t come across those kinds of valuable chips everyday.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Is KW 'trying' to trade Alexei? Press release? Screenshot?

He is not going to trade a SS who is under a team friendly contract, who brings power and superb defense for garbage.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 10:15 AM CST up reply actions  

That's really besides the point.

I was addressing a hypothetical situation that they were discussing above. I never claimed he was trying to trade him.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions  

and you said that you "could understand trading Alexei if they go full rebuild"

I disagree with that for the same reasons you are worried that they shouldn’t. He doesn’t cost much and we have absolutely nothing behind him, unless you are a huge Escobar fan.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Exactly!

IF they traded him they would receive a huge return.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 10:21 AM CST up reply actions  

So what's your point here?

I agree they SHOULD get a huge return for him. Like I said, my concern would just be over getting everything they could for probably their most valuable player (WAR-wise anyways).

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions  

My point is

I think it silly that you would think they would not receive a fair return based on what he is worth. What are you predicating this fear on? You are all over the place on this. Saying one thing and then deflecting to another.

Can someone else interject here? Am I off-base?

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

If you screw up trading your most valuable player, your franchise is set back many years.

I think that’s a valid concern. While I think they should be able to get a good haul for him (if they even want to trade him at all) I would certainly be concerned about squeezing every drop of blood out of that coin. I don’t see why I’m off base here.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Answer this

WHY do you think, IF the Sox trade Ramirez, we wouldn’t receive what he is worth? His name has not come up in any trade rumors for good reason because he is not on the market! It would take a considerable haul to pry him from KW! Also, he fits in in any sane rebuilding scenario because he is under team control until 2016 at a relatively cheap price. KW will not trade him for shit, even if they are rebuilding. How could you have a valid or sane concern?

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions  

If I may...

he is right to be worried that his GM wouldn’t get as much as he could for what is currently the White Sox’s most important asset. KW hasn’t earned complete and total trust. At least in my book he hasn’t. I’d think fans of many ball clubs should be at least a little concerned. Not all GMs are Anthopolous, Friedman, or Epstein.

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Thank you.

I don’t know why this had to be an argument.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 7:18 PM CST up reply actions  

It was an argument because I disagree with you and you make no sense

Go back and read the whole exchange. You would say one thing and then completely contradict yourself. You said I took your “scared to death” statement out of context then completely validated my issue with your statement in the very next sentence by saying your worry is that kenny will get fleeced and other GM’s undervalue Alexei. It is all in print above. My argument is , should kenny consider trading him, he will have to be floored by such an obviously attractive offer to pull the trigger. He is not going to trade him for garbage. Your concern over whether or not kw can get value for alexei is so overwrought and boring. It should be the least of your concerns about this team. Shame on you shoeless, for shame.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 8:44 PM CST up reply actions  

sorry to disappoint you rhube!

While we may disagree on whether it’s a legit concern, we can both agree that it’s not a priority concern. I don’t see Alexei being traded under any circumstances unless we see Saladino or Escobar take a HUGE leap forward this year.

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2011 8:52 PM CST up reply actions  

I really don't see where I contradicted myself at all.

I think you’ve inferred a few things here. First off, I never said anything about KW getting “fleeced”, There is a lot of gray area between getting back 5 blue-chip prospects and getting fleeced. My fear lies somewhere in that area. I’m not concerned Kenny is going to get “fleeced”, I’m concerned, as I said above, that he won’t manage to extract all of the possible value from an incredibly valuable trade chip like Alexei.

Second, this isn’t an attack on KW, at all. While I have had a problem with some of his moves, I can certainly appreciate A LOT of the moves he made. The Quentin trade was smart, the Dye signing was very shrewd, the Danks trade (while I didn’t like it at the time) was very smart and the Thornton trade was brilliant. I could go on. I even stated above that I would be concerned about this with any GM. I don’t really understand why you’re making a big deal of out this and insisting on twisting my words. Either way, I’m done with this “arguement”. I don’t even really know if I was making an argument, only stating a concern of mine.

by polodude017 on Dec 14, 2011 8:22 AM CST up reply actions  

I think at one point we did completely trust him

Remember when many used to say “Trust in Kenny”. I guess I agree with everyone in this current discussion. Kenny has been really spotty lately, but he has also built a WS winning team. He is a good GM, and can be a very good one when he is thinking clearly.

Its also important to remember that any GM that spends lots of time as a GM is going to have some misses. The longer the record the more the mistakes.

by 815Sox on Dec 14, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Use the ignore button.

"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."

John Kenneth Galbraith

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2011 5:08 PM CST up reply actions  

he fucked up

why does he deserve a chance to do it again?

NAOPOS

by blackoutsox on Dec 13, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions  

because he is still the GM

I get it, you don’t agree that he should have kept his job. You or anyone constantly bitching about KW’s past ineptitude isn’t going to change anything. Lets see what he does then evaluate it as much as we can at face value then reconvene on the subject in a year or two when things become clearer. I just think the conversation about rebuilding could be more valuable if we just drop the, “What ever he does is going to suck” attitude.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions  

He had a lot of fuck ups

but I thought he put a solid team together for 2011.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 10:17 AM CST up reply actions  

'06-'11 inspies confidence?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

*inspires

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

in total

no.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

even last season

it can’t cost $130M to get to 86-88 win talent.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

And?

If you win the championship who cares? If the team wins the world series I could care less if they won 99 or 83 games. i don’t care about style points. Besides the team will probably be better with a lesser payroll number anyway.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

true enough about win totals.

the problem, of course, is that an AL team made the playoffs with less than 89 wins once in the past decade.

by larry on Dec 13, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

well that's a better argument

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

how huge an if is that?

i’m not talking about style points, i’m talking about the fallout from mortgaging everything on a less than 50/50 shot.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I think its debatable

and I don’t want to mortgage everything. I fully acknowledge your point of view. I just disagree with it.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Well how can he predict that a major component of the team last year

apparently had all his baseball talent tied into his appendix ala Samson?

by 815Sox on Dec 14, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Everybody did

I seriously cannot remember a single person who thought the team was going to be bad last year. I remember how pumped I was for the season to start, and I think all of us were.

by 815Sox on Dec 14, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

id be shocked if they traded alexei.

they don’t have a major league shortstop and aren’t about to get one in a deal for any of our guys. i think he’s a building block.

konerko wouldn’t shock me.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 13, 2011 9:20 AM CST up reply actions  

I see them keeping Konerko.

One, I don’t think he’d accept a trade. Two, they trade him and the average fan becomes outraged.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Dec 13, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't see him moving.

He made some comments the other week about understanding rebuilding and being amenable to staying on and helping the younger guys.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 10:20 AM CST up reply actions  

the average fan is already outraged.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 13, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions  

fan favorite, the Pierreminator is gone

White Sox 2012: Helplessly rebuilding?

by greenlight on Dec 13, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

i don't think he's going to get traded...

but it wouldn’t shock me if he did- it would if alexei was sent packing.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 13, 2011 10:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Three, the Angels signed Pujols

They probably don’t need Konerko any more

by Newcomer on Dec 13, 2011 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Hee.

"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."

John Kenneth Galbraith

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2011 5:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm kind of in a holding pattern until I see what the heck else happens this offseason.

I answered “yes” to the poll on whether or not they could contend with this roster, but like you said, when I pictured such a situation it was accompanied by a ton of luck.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 8:47 AM CST reply actions  

KW's strategy

Seems to be that he will rebuild IF he gets fair value for his players in trade. Otherwise might as well try to compete. In other words – why trade Danks just for the sake of rebuilding if he’s getting lowballed? He has a value in his mind and if he doesn’t get what he feels is fair, then he won’t act. If he gets what is fair, then heck, he’ll trade Danks, Floyd, Thornton, Quentin, and Beckham without hesitation and say, “F—- yeah I’m rebuilding!!”

by ParisSox on Dec 13, 2011 8:49 AM CST reply actions  

Value is key, and it should be pretty easy to see if he's getting enough.

If he holds Danks this whole season and loses him in FA, he would obtain two draft picks in next year’s draft (if I’m understanding this new CBA correctly). So whatever he gets needs to be worth as much or more than that + one year of Danks.

Quentin is a little more tricky as his value next season will be strongly determined by his performance and ability to remain healthy this year. I’m not as concerned about trading Floyd, I could actually see him fetching more at the deadline if KW plays his hand right. Same with a guy like Thornton. I see no reason to trade Beckham right now, I really doubt they would get much value in return, might as well hold him and see what he can do with a new hitting coach.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 8:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

We won’t see Beckham traded because that would be selling low. But the point is that Beckham has been mentioned in rumours and KW wouldn’t hesitate to throw him in if it can net him his next man-crush.

by ParisSox on Dec 13, 2011 9:10 AM CST up reply actions  

You really have to remember that what you and I hear is not the whole story

He says he is getting lowballed but he could be just posturing. Negotiations at that level are not just cut and dry and KW isn’t going to tell the media anything that would hurt him. The only thing that would hurt him would be telling the world what he is thinking.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 9:00 AM CST up reply actions  

It's amazing how many upper-percentile projections were met at the same time in 2005.

Especially with the pitching staff. We’d need a similar amount of luck to compete this season as currently constructed. Which isn’t “realistic”, as the poll from this weekend put it.

Player     05 rWAR   02-04 Avg rWAR
Konerko      3.5          1.3
Rowand       3.1          2.8
Crede        2.0          1.3
Iguchi       2.6          Rk
Dye          1.6          0.2
            15.2          7.2

Buehrle      5.4          3.7
Garland      5.0          1.6
Garcia       4.0          2.8
Contreras    3.9          0.7
Politte      2.6          0.5
Hermanson    2.2          0.3
Cotts        1.9         -0.2
McCarthy     1.2          Rk
Vizcaino     1.0          0.0
Jenks        0.9          Rk
            28.1          9.4   

by 3E8 on Dec 13, 2011 8:58 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

I'd love to see the odds of that many players having high numbers simultaneously

in other words, what are the odds of a repeat anomaly in 2012?

White Sox 2012: Helplessly rebuilding?

by greenlight on Dec 13, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions  

yeah, it's absurd. basically everyone having a good season.

unfortunately, many people now think that is the recipe for success and not a huge outlier.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Dec 13, 2011 9:33 AM CST up reply actions  

We truly got every break in '05,

and everyone did about as well as they could do. Magical season. I met a former Astros 3B this last Thursday who now works for UBS (I forget his name). Reminded him of ’05 – his first reaction was “you smoked us”. And I said “in victories, yeah, but all the games were close and winnable by you”. Felt like the whole season was like that.

No way that happens again in my lifetime – we might win, but it isn’t going to be that kind of win.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 9:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Mike Lamb?

What?! I ain't no Professor Pickles!

by 67WMAQ on Dec 13, 2011 9:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Actually I don't remember.

He had a cup of coffee with them for 2 years and got hurt.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions  

that's what people have to understand.

when there are lots of ‘ifs’ that have to happen for your team to compete, it’s highly unlikely they will.
because even if a team looks very good on paper, good things still need to happen for them to win.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Dec 13, 2011 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

and there is the difference

I don’t think its a lot of ifs to compete. They fucking sucked last year and competed.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 9:49 AM CST up reply actions  

We paid back the 2005 luck surplus

last year

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions  

We were unlucky last year?

Jesus, we were terrible. Unbearable to watch. Passionless. Rudderless. Not unlucky.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 9:52 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't know, it is pretty unlucky to have the two "top-tier" players who put up historically bad numbers while making a combined 25 million or so

The first game i went to was the 2nd game of the first homestand where Pierre dropped the can of corn in left, that was kind of bad luck and that started our tailspin. About the only luck we had was Teahen being serviceable and unloadable.

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Rios is probably not considered "top tier" except re: salary.

Was Dunn unlucky?

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 10:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Those of us who watched him sure were.

"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."

by RWShow on Dec 13, 2011 4:00 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Not everyone fucking sucked.

And they didn’t compete well. By the end of July you had to figure they were done – and they were. That’s not competing.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions  

tdogg was still hoping for a mid-August run

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 9:52 AM CST up reply actions  

He was tilting at windmills a lot longer than me.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

On Aug 16th the White Sox were 3.5 games out

with the same run differential as the Detroit Tigers. Please explain to me how I was tilting windmills at the time. I know its all fun and everything for people to just “know” it ain’t the year but spare me.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions  

At the all star break they were 5 games out and 4 under .500

On the on August 16th they were 1 game over .500. So its fair to assume they were headed in the right direction. If DeAza and Dayan were up at all star break like they should have been who knows. Oh well whatever.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 10:22 AM CST up reply actions  

Same reasons given above.

The arc of their season had peaked long before DET caught fire. DET was not going to remain as bad as they were before August. No one was stepping forward to lead the team. We didn’t have stirring comebacks – nothing emotional that pointed to a team of destiny or a team that could grind it out.

Hope is not an investment process. I’m not infallible but I was right – and put my money on it. Quit grousing. They were “in” it by definition but they were not going to “win” it.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Righhhttttt

Tell that to the Cardinals.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, Sox = Cardinals in terms of talent.

Who is our Pujols? Oh, we don’t actually have someone who can carry a team to the finish line. Or better yet, didn’t. I know the “hot” theory, but we were never getting “hot” when we spent all year dicking around with .500.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Pujols' wOBA last year: .385

Konerko’s wOBA last year: .383.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Dec 13, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

lol

you type faster

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 10:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Crap

That 10-year extension we’re obligated to give Paulie now is really going to eat the budget.

by WSO on Dec 13, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Paulie's second half boils down to the knee

It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity

by Rhubarb on Dec 13, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

ugh I forgot about that

hopefully it doesn’t linger this year

NAOPOS

by blackoutsox on Dec 13, 2011 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

And Paulie started out like a house on fire.

Pujols struggled until mid-year. Got to watch the trend. And frankly the Cards were extremely fortunate. Point being the Sox never were going to get hot after June, IMO, and they didn’t. The Cards had flint and kindling, and it worked.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

2 times in 10 years

Tony Larussa rules!

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

My "eye" test may not have been scientific

but I won the bets by being right.

Go Tebow it out, man.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2011 8:06 AM CST up reply actions  

career?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

It would be nice

One of my good friends is a St. Louis Cardinals fan. He was calling for LaRussa’s head on August 20th.

What?! I ain't no Professor Pickles!

by 67WMAQ on Dec 13, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

yep

And the 06 Cards won 83 games.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Indeed. The conversations with the inlaws about how much

suck we had going with our respective baseball teams, only to have it end up like it did. Sigh

by South Side Expat on Dec 13, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh that's horsesit

The team didnt have “it” but either you are competing or not. 3.5 games out in August is surely that.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

You know the concept of "resistance levels" in stocks?

There was no way they were going higher, or had a team that would win, and it was obvious to me in July. Lifeless. You were on a melting ice floe in August, T.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Well if your upper management is intent on limiting potential yeah

definition of insanity

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 9:56 AM CST up reply actions  

"Limiting potential" = "saving money"

if you are referring to De Aza and Viciedo.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Hee. Every ship at the bottom of the ocean had a chart.

Resistance levels indeed.

"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."

John Kenneth Galbraith

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2011 5:13 PM CST up reply actions  

did that get fans to the games?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

I really don't get this point.

At some point if they continued to compete and made the playoffs fans would come. Its not like the White Sox wouldn’t sell out playoff games.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

3.5 games at that point is what, 20% chance?

15%?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I believe at the time BP had the White Sox about 26%

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Cool standings generic for White Sox

was 17%.

Notable
Tampa Bay 5.3%
St Louis 10.5

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

as i stated this weekend... i'm all for rebuilding.

if they trade danks thats great as long as we are getting something in return. danks for banuelos? sign me up.

but then you look at the money coming off the books next year. its not like they are in dire straits to clear payroll. thats going to be done automatically for them. if they aren’t getting the offers they want i could easily see them holding until the deadline. and i don’t really think there is anything wrong with that.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 13, 2011 9:18 AM CST reply actions  

well yeah

they are willing to trade guys, they dont HAVE to do it.

When you think you have to you get Swisher II type stuff.

by e-gus on Dec 13, 2011 9:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Count me out

Luck is usually a large part in many teams success.
Bears 2010 healthy NFC Championship game
Bears 2011 Cutler AND Forte

I get your point and certainly don’t think you’re crazy but the true talent of Detroit is not enough for me to go punting this season.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 9:36 AM CST reply actions  

Go Tebow it out, man.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 9:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Im sorry

This is basically the tweener argument to me. And the only major sport I buy that in is the NBA for a team like the White Sox.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 9:43 AM CST up reply actions  

huh?

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Dec 13, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

What's not clear?

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Your face is not clear.

It is hidden in your Tebow pic. ;)

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

i just don't know if the white sox have enough size to compete with the lakers or heat.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Dec 13, 2011 9:56 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

lol

A team like the White Sox in their position with a weaker division
MLB playoffs are very streaky
NFL playoffs change drastically and subject to chemistry
NBA playoffs? You have to have a great freaking team to win.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Dec 13, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Look out for KC.

Hee

"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."

John Kenneth Galbraith

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2011 9:44 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

SD fron true talent is +/- 6 wins.

whoch is exactly what they need to get in the race. they also need detroit not to overperform. you’er looking at a less than 1 in 10 shot to make money on the season i would guess.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Haven't the Royals been a top hitting team

In BA for a few years now? Now they have added some power to go along with CY-Chen.

Grienke on the Brewers, didn’t really impress me

by JPSoprano80 on Dec 13, 2011 9:46 AM CST reply actions  

Well...

Maybe he just wants to go have fun on that slide. Why let the mascot have all the fun?

GET TO THE CHOPPA!!!

by hoosier3 on Dec 13, 2011 10:08 AM CST up reply actions  

That Slide looks fun

Did the Brewers just sign Aramis Ramirez?

by JPSoprano80 on Dec 13, 2011 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes it does and yes they did.

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 13, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

I hope for another 1988

In 1987, the White Sox still had key members of the 1983 rotation in Dotson and Bannister, but Larry Himes dealt them away that offseason. The return (including Dan Pasqua and Greg Hibbard) wasn’t enough to keep the team from being terrible over the next season and a half, but contributed to the resurgence that started after the 1989 All-Star break.

I can live with another bad year like 1988 if there’s an indication that Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Thornton, and company are being turned into potentially useful parts of the next good White Sox team. Here’s hoping that Kenny doesn’t left the perfect (an unobtainable Banuelos and Montero package) be the enemy of the good (getting a useful part before Danks reaches free agency).

by asinwreck on Dec 13, 2011 10:56 AM CST reply actions  

we better draft like some badasses.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Dec 13, 2011 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

They are all available now, I believe.

Why do we have to draft them? I also believe Ventura is also already under contract.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

What's your back-of-the-napkin true talent projection for Detroit?

can’t imagine it being anywhere near the 95 games they actually won last year. Still time in the offseason, sure, but it’s going to take a pretty solidly-above-average acquisition to put them even in the low-90s, I would think.

Yup, I’m with tdogg — go for it. It’s not so much as me being supremely confident in bounce-backs from a large number of players on this team. Just a convergence of a bunch of different reasons (Detroit good-but-not-great; can’t see them getting the fuckin’ A package for Danks or anyone else, rendering a “rebuild” rather pointless; some confidence in bounce-backs for Dunn/Peavy, breakthroughs for Viciedo/Morel/Beckham). So I guess it’s what I see as making the best of a bad situation.

by CWSKeith on Dec 13, 2011 10:58 AM CST reply actions  

it would cost like $30-40M to really jump into the race

and keep in mind JR lost probably something like $20M last season.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

is that accurate?

does $500k short of expectations through the gate translate to $20M?

by e-gus on Dec 13, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

i would guess close

an average of $40 a person seems reasonable

brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight

by whitesoxmatt on Dec 13, 2011 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

It would mean their net income on ballpark stuff (ticket, food, parking, merch, etc.)

is $40 a head. I just roughly calculated the figure for three teams using those leaked financial documents and got between $27-$30.

by 3E8 on Dec 13, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

seems a tad low to me at $40

but I guess you gotta pay the vendors, parking attendants, etc.

by e-gus on Dec 13, 2011 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

i think that's where i got my ballpark too.

i was messing around with them back in august?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm actually a little surprised at him throwing out the word rebuild

Santos being moved was surprising, but I don’t see it as a sign of a rebuild. The team’s best play at this point is to try to compete again because of the Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Konerko contracts. Moving Santos doesn’t really change that, imo. Any number of our bullpen guys should be able to step in and close out games. Granted, I’m not much of a believer in the “closer mentality” so some of ya’ll may disagree that Thornton, Crain, Reed, or Frasor can cut it.

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2011 11:18 AM CST reply actions  

Rebuild

Kenny is the one who spoke this word and not a single move since this utterance.
It sorta like your wife bringing up divorse before your first cup of coffee and then never mentioning it again.

by Lil Jimmy on Dec 13, 2011 11:23 AM CST reply actions  

Detroit, KC and Sox

I also thought that the sox had a shot going into late August, even though my gut awarns me off of optimism with the sox, warranted or not. I just think the Tigers really stepped it up to an extent that I hadn’t expected. I think it’s interesting to ask whether one thinks the April-July Tigers are the real ones or the August-September version. For myself, I have them pegged as an 85 win team next year – not bad, but not as scary as late last season. Fister’s good, but I think there’s some evidence in his history (esp. peripherals) that he’s not that good. Verlander is a monster, but even stud pitchers have peak years -I don’t think he pulls off a second mvp+cy year. As for the Royals, I’ve seen a lot more teams with stockpiles of young starts fall well short than succeed. Anyway, that’s the optimistic side of me. My gut just says “worry”.

by SteveV on Dec 13, 2011 11:24 AM CST reply actions   2 recs

+2

"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."

John Kenneth Galbraith

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2011 5:17 PM CST up reply actions  

The Royals can't even screw up that talent.

If not this year, 2013 looks like the dam breaks.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2011 8:06 AM CST up reply actions  

fwiw if Betances is a reliever like larry said, that's not fair value

i think Sickels still likes him better than that though.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2011 11:51 AM CST reply actions  

To return to the KW point

It seems like he first enjoyed success when he sought after “diamond in the rough” types and/or bounceback candidates – Iguchi, Dye, Pods (I know, KenWo). My question is, do people think this was always going to be his approach, or is he just trying to replicate his earlier successes with others (Peavy, Rios, et al) who have spectacularly failed?

"The Sox have a better home record than the Twins, but...we're not at home right now." -DJ

by Joist on Dec 13, 2011 4:12 PM CST reply actions  

That pretty much had to be his approach for most of those years.

Jerry didn’t give him the money to be a big player on the FA market and the minor league system was (as always) bad. Unless something changed, I kind of assumed that’s the way things were going to continue. Well, something did change. Jerry ponied up the dough, though under the condition that if the fans didn’t show, the checkbook would go away. Well, we all know what happened.

by polodude017 on Dec 13, 2011 7:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure which idea is more hilarious.....

that the Sox will compete for the division title in 2012 or that they will do a real rebuild with the most barren farm system in baseball and least patient GM in baseball who created the barren farm system by having, for so many years, little interest in developing a pipeline of young talent.

Lotsa luck with both of those. I can’t see the Sox in the playoffs again until at least after KW and JR are both gone from the organization.

by DonGutteridge on Dec 13, 2011 5:31 PM CST reply actions  

hey, laughing is healthy.

if the man wants to laugh, I say let him laugh.

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2011 8:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Also, hilarious is a fantastic word.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2011 8:07 AM CST up reply actions  

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