A rundown of Kenny Williams at the winter meetings
Rarely do the winter meetings serve as fertile ground for White Sox trades.
That's because, in most years, Kenny Williams has done his heaviest lifting before the meetings take place, operating before somebody sets the market. Oddly enough, his moves rarely set the market themselves -- although it's almost like he tried and failed with the Scott Linebrink signing. He has operated in his own bubble, more or less.
It's quite different this year, for Williams heads to the meetings without a real major-league transaction in the books this offseason. What's more is that he's expected to play a big part in the trade market. This could be a positive development, given his recent track record. Maybe he and Adam Dunn made a pact to change their offseason routines -- Dunn will swing the bat in the winter, and Williams will determine player value based off the environment. Change is beautiful?
At any rate, I did the legwork to figure out when the White Sox made their moves, so I may as well share it. Below the jump, you'll find a rundown of what Kenny Williams did before, during and after the winter meetings in every offseason since the one that built the 2005 team.
2010 winter meetings (Dec. 6-9)
Before: Signed Adam Dunn, traded Scott Linebrink, re-signed A.J. Pierzynski
During: None
After: Signed Jesse Crain on Dec. 20
Notes: Paul Konerko was re-signed during the winter meetings, although unlike Mark Buehrle, everybody assumed he was coming back. The Dunn, Linebrink and Pierzynski deals all were finalized on the same day (Dec. 3), the Friday before the meetings.
2009 winter meetings (Dec. 7-10)
Before: Traded for Mark Teahen, signed Omar Vizquel, signed Andruw Jones
During: None
Next move(s): Signed J.J. Putz on Dec. 11, traded for Juan Pierre on Dec. 15
Notes: While the Putz and Pierre deals were consummated after the winter meetings, the courtship of the concepts started during them. So you can give each a half-point if you care to.
2008 winter meetings (Dec. 8-11)
Before: Traded Nick Swisher, traded Javier Vazquez
During: None
Next move: Signed Dayan Viciedo on Dec. 12
Notes: Here's where it would've been nice for Williams to use the meetings as a potential market-builder. Instead, he did all his scouting while watching the Arizona Fall League.
2007 winter meetings (Dec. 3-6)
Before: Traded Jon Garland, signed Scott Linebrink
During: Traded for Carlos Quentin
Next move: Traded for Nick Swisher on Jan. 3
Notes: The Quentin trade wasn't supposed to have immediate major-league implications, as it was assumed that he would start the season in Charlotte, with Jerry Owens breaking camp as the starting center fielder.
2006 winter meetings (Dec. 4-7)
Before: Traded Neal Cotts
During: Traded Freddy Garcia on Dec. 6
After: Traded Ross Gload on Dec. 16.
Notes: The Garcia trade was supposed to merely open up a spot for Brandon McCarthy, but then McCarthy was traded on Dec. 23, and the Secret Rebuilding Year was under way.
2005 winter meetings (Dec. 5-8)
Before: Traded Aaron Rowand, re-signed Paul Konerko
During: Traded Damaso Marte
Next move: Traded for Javier Vazquez on Dec. 20
Notes: The Marte-for-Mackowiak trade was made official on Dec. 13, but first reported on Dec. 8. So I'm counting this as a "during."
2004 winter meetings (Dec. 10-13)
Before: Signed Jermaine Dye, signed Dustin Hermanson
During: Traded Carlos Lee
Next move: Signed Orlando Hernandez on Jan. 3
Notes: Dye and Hermanson signed the day before the meetings.
262 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
December of '09.
Ugh.
Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?
by AirTrafficAJ on Dec 5, 2011 12:34 AM CST via iPhone app reply actions
December of '04
I was like, WTF! Podsenick and Vizcaino? That’s all you could get for Lee? Then 2005 happened and KW received a pass on all transactions for the next 5 years. That pass has now been revoked and KW needs to come through this year (just in getting good value in his trades so we have a base to build on for 2012 and beyond.)
screw december of 04. oh man i was royally pissed that year.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Previous thread: "People need to get over Mark Buehrle."
This thread: “I’d have rather kept Carlos Lee and not win the World Series than win the Series without him!”
by Jim Margalus on Dec 5, 2011 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
that's not correct
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
I suspect it is correct if he'd been the DH instead of Carl.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
His money went to pay some combination of Pierzynski, El Duque, Dye, Hermanson and Iguchi.
If the final payroll was the max limit, the Sox would’ve given back that edge somewhere.
by Jim Margalus on Dec 5, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
i still say they should have gotten more than pods and vizcaino. that was a bad trade regardless of the outcome of 2005.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
This is dumb
you are saying that you would give back our World Series victory just to watch Carlos Lee in tight pants for the past 6 years. Boooooo!
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
He's auditioning for Mariotti's role on that yapper show.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
not what i'm saying.
i just think the trade sucked. take out the world series win. its a horrid move.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
"Take out the World Series win."
I’d rather not.
by Jim Margalus on Dec 5, 2011 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
What Jim said
getting rid of Lee freed up a payroll to sign several pieces. You are looking at that trade in a knob slobbing vaccuum.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
even still... we should have gotten better players in return.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
This is one of the most horseshit exchanges in SSS history.
You are drinking rather early today, Ken.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
no it isnt. it was a bad trade if you just look at it from a trade standpoint.
the fact that we won in 2005 doesn’t change that fact.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
You are SSH-like in your analysis in this instance.
Awful. Go watch your soaps, fer Chrissakes.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
bah. take off your world series blinders. it wasn't a good trade no matter how you slice it.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
KenWo:Keith Law::Carlos Lee:Chris Sale
Dave Martinez woulda had that.
by Nordhagen on Dec 5, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
I suspect you could have gotten better younger prospects for Lee
however this sort of ignores the contributions of the major league players they did trade for and the addition of the other players from the free money. You’re just trolling now.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
how am i trolling? the trade sucked. lee is still hitting pretty well.
vizcaino and pods have been released by a combined 20 teams since then.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
And we have something that is eternal.
That’s generally the goal, isn’t it? The whole enchilada? Especially when it’s been 88 years? Come on, Fruity Pebbles.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
you keep leaving out iguchi, hermanson, el duque, etc.
theres a much bigger picture you like to ignore.
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
but they could have gotten them anyway if we got better players than the crap we got.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
because in your fantasy world they also have Yankee money?
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
no... we could have gotten better prospects.
prospects wouldn’t have cost more money.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
prospects ready to win it all in 2005?
come on man, admit you’re being a dumbfuck and lets move on.
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
take away his saturday posts until he does
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
but would have cost the world series in return?
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions
And they also likely wouldn't have contributed immediately
That’s kind of like the point.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
If we are going to be like this.....--->
Carlos Lee never would have walked off in the World Series because he wouldn’t have been up because Carlos Lee doesn’t play leadoff position. Besides who would have Iguchi moved to second or third? Who would have been on first base? Oh yeah, Iguchi wouldn’t have been there. Maybe if we had kept Lee we would have had Jenks at the beginning of the season…..the idiocy can go on and on.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
no, this is not true, see jim's post above
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
http://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/pasta-recipes/a-killer-mac-n-cheese
ingredients
• sea salt and freshly ground black pepper
• 45g butter
• 3 heaped tablespoons plain flour
• 10 cloves of garlic, peeled and finely sliced
• 6 fresh bay leaves
• 1 litre semi-skimmed milk
• 600g dried macaroni
• 8 tomatoes
• 150g freshly grated Cheddar cheese
• 100g freshly grated Parmesan cheese
• a few sprigs of fresh thyme, leaves picked
optional: a couple of splashes of Worcestershire sauce
• optional: a grating of nutmeg
• 3 big handfuls of fresh breadcrumbs
• olive oil
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Why the Fuck would we take out the World Series Win?
What city do you live in? Stop this crap.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
or at least take away his writing duties
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
we analyze that swisher trade every other month for the last 3 years.
and we should. it sucked. but lee for two bums wasn’t a good trade either.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
the lee trade is not even close to being in the same category as the swisher II trade
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
this is the weakest heel turn ever.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 5, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
if we traded danks for a slappy outfielder who is just as old as danks is and a middle reliever...
it would not be viewed very positively.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
and this was even worse because lee had 2 years left on his deal before free agency.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
It wasnt a deal it was arbitration years
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
regardless of what it was... he was under team control for 2 years.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Its not regardless
Lee cost 16.5 million over those 2 years. Its relevant. Jesus man. You can’t just conveniently toss out statements or figures that sort of mattered in the overall evaluation. Not to mention Lee’s performance itself over the next 2 years.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
He quickly became a butcher in the field
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
the fact that he cost 16.5 million doesn't excuse the fact that we got nothing quality in return for him!
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
somebody that could have helped more than 1/2 of a season.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
you don't trade a nearly 5 WAR player for nothing.
Should have gotten a good prospect included at least.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
You keep saying this
This is silly and wrong. Did Pods and Luis provide zero value in 05?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
What is the value of the players
that made up Lee’s salary? This is a dead issue man.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
they did. but we traded a star player (his 2004 was a great great season)
we should have gotten more than an outfielder that had a very limited upside and a middle reliever.
you would have been up in arms with that package if they traded quentin for it last offseason.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
You can have whatever opinion you want on a trade
when it happens, but there comes a time to evaluate the actual results.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
what results? vizcaino was sent out a year later and podsednik started putting up pierre-esque numbers after 1/2 a year.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
A World fucking Series Kenwo.
Jesus Christ. I would take a whole 6 years of suckitude for another ring.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
then what are we bitching about every day for then.
we won the damn world series in 2005! fuck the swisher trade! who cares? ozzie turning his back on the team? big deal… he brought us to the world series! Kenny making garbage signings of linebrink and teahen? big fucking deal. thats a world series GM we are talking about.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Im pretty sure
if goggles won us a world series I would let Swisher II go. If Marquez turned in a CY young candidate I wouldnt be railing on the trade 7 years later. Give me a break.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
The CLee trade didn't cripple the organization.
The moves you listed have. Pretty significant difference.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 5, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
Lee was worth 2.0 WAR in 2005.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
by U-God on Dec 5, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
lee was worth 4.6 in 2004 which is when he was traded.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Yeah. And then he had mediocre season after we traded him.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
doesn't change the fact that we traded him in his prime after a big year
when he had 2 years of team control left. should have gotten more.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I think other teams realized he was a bad body who absolutely couldn't play defense.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Hence the KenWo affinity.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
I still hate Lee for how bad he sucked in the 2000 playoffs
Glad we got rid of him lol
Dave Martinez woulda had that.
we sold high
That’s the definition of a good trade.
NAOPOS
by blackoutsox on Dec 5, 2011 11:58 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Either way
We would have lost Lee by the end of 2005. No way we could have payed him to stay in Chicago, but we cut him early and got what we could get in a hastily prepared trade(at least I assume so). I don’t believe we sent any money with Lee, so maybe that could have netted us some prospects.
Then 2006.
I don’t think we were planning on being able to pay him after that season. Kenny probably made the same mistake as me and assumed he was leaving after 2005.
i'm enjoying how, even with the benefit of the hindsight that lee wasn't worth his salary in 2005 and 2006,
you still argue that the white sox should have done better in the trade. the white sox won the trade. not every trade partner has to be a rape victim.
by larry on Dec 5, 2011 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
they didnt win the trade. lee was still better than pods.
maybe the sox should have moved lee to first base where he is apparently pretty good as judging by his 4.6 WAR of last season.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Lee had a 3.2 WAR last year (fg).
And if ‘winning the WS the year of the deal’ doesn’t equate to winning the trade, what does?
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 5, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
not according to b-r
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
buehrle, garland, garcia, contreras
the main reasons we won… were already there.
and he was 4.6 as per bwar.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i don't believe garland was worth 5 wins that year
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim
my new sig!!
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
I particularly enjoy
his reference to the career of Lee and privilege the White Sox lost in not paying for it.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
you were against trading quentin for relief help last year.
lee in 04 was way better than quentin in 10. plus had a history of playing every day.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Again I fail to see what that
has to do with RESULTS you have the benefit of SEEING. Its like you are arguing is was still a mistake to charge Normandy even though it succeeded…..
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
yeah a ws is shit
You’d rather have prospects than a ring? I wish I knew you valued Lee this highly before. I would’ve fucking robbed you blind in that first year of BMO.
NAOPOS
by blackoutsox on Dec 5, 2011 12:13 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
would have won the ring anyway.
starting pitchers were there.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Jon Garland suddenly looks different to me

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 5, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
lee woulda threw the guy out at the plate that led to the tie game.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I think you are ignoring the value created by relieving the White Sox obligation
It should be fairly obvious that the bigger the obligation remaining to a player, the less that player should return in a trade.
It's simple
White Sox won the World Series for the first time in 88 years. Ergo, any and every move that led to that was justified. Nothing else matters. Ergo none of the moves were bad. Ergo, it is what it is. ;)
bah just because the pitching won us a world series that year doesn't mean we should excuse getting very mediocre talent in return for a big hitter in his prime.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i was under the impression we could excuse the move because it was seven years ago.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 5, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
And because we won the World Series.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 5, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
burn the barn down
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
kenwo likes to keep his
Pet zombies around.
NAOPOS
by blackoutsox on Dec 5, 2011 12:16 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Beating a dead horse.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
I just traded a baguette for a croissant
Other than that, nothing yet
by ParisSox on Dec 5, 2011 7:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I traded a toothbrush for a menthol cigarette
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I traded some sleep for a paycheck.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
I wish it was still Sunday
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Dec 5, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
Well
Not much of this looks too impressive. I guess 2007 was probably the best looking year, considering the past and how good Quentin did now.
I going to guess Dec 2004 worked out pretty good
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
No one = KenWo?
Dye and Hermanson were good, low risk signings. Not everyone was enamored of Carlos Lee.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
At the time though
He was a young guy that was starting to slug and he could even run given his stature. There is no where, where everyone likes or dislikes a trade. I’m kind of just generalizing. I agree that the signings were low risk-high reward signings, and it worked out for us.
Well the point is the evaluation after the fact
I mean I really liked the 2010 off season. Duh.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
No one did.
No one.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
I know I know.
Sometimes fans get angry though when a team trades some of their favorite players. I agree trading Carlos Lee did help the team, the players we got did really help push and get us to the playoffs, hell, even won one of the games with a walkoff!
and most of us were informed enough at the time to realize
the money required to keep Lee was going to be spread around to other positions of need.
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
you coulda did that anyway and still gotten a quality player in return.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
based on what? who?
at least provide comparable trade transactions that took place during the offseason..
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe something along the lines of
Mike Adams, Vizcano, Corey Hart, Podsednik for Lee and a bit of cash
Yes, I know.
He was asking astronomical amounts in his next contract and we were able to get out of it. I think that trading Lee was for the better, I’m not saying it was a bad trade.
Not trying to get dragged into the Lee trade specifically
But sometimes fan favorites need to go to help the team, hometown fans will be upset by this, but will quickly forget if the trade brings in the results. If it doesn’t… well they constantly remind the GM that it didn’t aka Hudson
Sounds about right.
No GM has the power to see the future. I really think that the Lee trade was good, even though we might have been able to net something more in the trade. He did dodge more of a bullet trading him and getting something then when he would of probably walked after the 2005 season.
Dustin Hermanson
Seeing Dustin Hermanson’s name simply gives me the chance to once again note what a valuable and often times forgotten/overlooked player he was on that wonderful 2005 team. That is all.
Too bad his back went to shit, he was having a great year. Shingo, Hermanson then Jenks.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
The man's spine tried to jump out of his back. Tough to come back from.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
that blows
apparently you have to be dead to get in this way…Santo is in.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Not really. Santo deserved it while alive, one of the top 10 3B ever.
Not his fault the writers were stupid and the veterans selfish.
A wrong that was corrected with this.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
by Chiburb on Dec 5, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
so is minoso going to make it when he croaks?
because thats how it looks.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i know. sucks bad. id like to see the breakdown.
and for santo it seems like he just got in because now he died- wether he deserved it or not.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Minnie got 9 of 16 votes
had to get 75%. Kaat had 10. Santo had 15. Hodges 9.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
yeah... i meant the breakdown on who voted for who.
WHO SCREWED MINNIE DAMMIT
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
How much you want to bet Dave Van Dyck didn't vote for him?
Kind of shitty Don Sutton is on that committee.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I agree Santo should have been in a loooong time ago, so I don't know what 'not really' is
All i said was “apparently you have to be dead to get in this way”
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Dec 5, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, didn't mean it that way. Roland is alive, though VanDyke is questionable.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Hemond was in already.
Hemond and Van Dyck were just on the Golden Era Committee and had votes. I think?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
per HOF website
The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Golden Era ballot features Hall of Fame members Hank Aaron, Al Kaline, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson, Don Sutton and Billy Williams; major league executives Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Bill DeWitt (Cardinals), Roland Hemond (Diamondbacks), Gene Michael (Yankees), and Al Rosen (retired); along with veteran media members Dick Kaegel, Jack O’Connell and Dave Van Dyck. Hall of Fame Chairman of the Board Jane Forbes Clark will serve as the non-voting chairman of the Golden Era Committee.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
for no rational reason
I have a hard time seeing Yes votes coming on Minnie from the 3 writers. Aaron, Kaline, Kiner, Lasorda, Marichal and Robinson all had careers that overlapped with Minoso’s big decade, so I want to think they were Yes votes, or at minimum 4 were. Sutton I’d guess was a no. Same with WIlliams. Hemond was a Yes but the other execs are toss-ups in my imaginary vote breakdown.
i would predict williams a yes. he was in the same city at the same time (at least when minoso returned the 2nd time).
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i tried to do that too
Im not convinced Kaline, Lasorda or Kiner can be counted as a given here.
Its all speculation at this point.
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
the whole list is really a big toss up outside of Hemond
With Kaline, he was the one guy on the committee who was a 50s AL guy- saw a ton of Minoso first hand. If I were going to have even a little in a vote outside of Hemond it would be him. Robinson had some late 50s overlap as well. KenWo makes a good point about Williams- similar time frame as Robinson but in the same city.
But yeah, anytime I look at that list- there’s little better than hunches other the one vote.
Oh. This site needs more pictures (since I obviously can't read)!
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
But at least Roland made it!!
Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Racist.
And I’m not joking.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
I don't know about that.
I think Minnie’s biggest problem is that he’s not dead.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 5, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
He was the first dark latin American player
Orlando Cepeda: "Orestes Minoso was the Jackie Robinson for all Latinos; the first star who opened doors for all Latin American players. He was everybody’s hero. I wanted to be Minoso. Clemente wanted to be Minoso.
I know that. I also think he should be in.
But it’s the Santo context. My belief is that Santo was voted in this year because he’s dead.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 5, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
My belief is he's in cuz he deserved it when he was alive.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
No one (other than 815) is saying Santo didn't deserve to get in while alive.
It just sucks that they waited until he died to give him the bump.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Yes.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
And it looks like they're going down the same road with Minnie.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
That's what I was trying to type.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 5, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe. There isn't even the unanimity in the SABR world for Minnie as there was for Santo.
His election was correcting an injustice, not sure it would be that way for Minnie.
Or are we saying the same things? This thread has SO many distractions…
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Minnie's injustice was having to wait to play in the majors.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
We have no idea that will happen though
Fact of the matter is Minnie should already be in the HOF, his race very likely prevented him from getting in. A players best chance to be inducted often comes soon after he retires.
Borderline at best. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great.
But a choice between Santo and Minoso? By the numbers?
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
That is the question I guess
Are we going just by the numbers or are we including overall impact? At the end of it all, Minoso is going to have a far larger impact. It takes alot of bravery to go into a situation in which you know many are going to be actively hostile towards you because of who you are and where you come from. He was a groundbreaker and ultimately improved the entire sport by opening up the MLB too a huge talent pool.
well that being said santo was affected by diabetes
that should also be taken into consideration.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
You pegged it.
"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."
insulin is an anabolic hormone
there are implications there for performance enhancement.
by Shoeless In SC on Dec 5, 2011 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
I dunno...
I think Dunn should give it a try if he stumbles out of the gate.
by Shoeless In SC on Dec 5, 2011 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
Santo inspired millions of diabetics to eat chocolate between innings!
That has to be worth something.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
And he clicked his heels (when he had some).
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
by Chiburb on Dec 5, 2011 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Very very nice.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2011 3:49 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Sortof off topic
But I had no idea the Red Sox were so feckin racist. This was talked about on the radio and I looked for more info
Larry Lucchino, president and CEO of the Red Sox, and part of the new ownership that took over the team in February, acknowledges that along with the team’s positive traditions, the club’s history has included “an undeniable legacy of racial intolerance.”
“You can’t grow up in America as a sports fan and not recognize the role that baseball played both negatively and positively in the racial history of America,” Lucchino says. “And the fact that it took until 1959 for Pumpsie Green to integrate the Sox infield speaks volumes.”
The history goes back to before baseball was integrated. Oddly enough, the Red Sox held a tryout at Fenway Park for Jackie Robinson in April 1945. But with only management in the stands, someone yelled “Get those n******s off the field,” according to a reporter who was there that day. Two years later, Robinson joined the Brooklyn Dodgers, becoming the first black player of the 20th century to play in the major leagues.
http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/oct/redsox/
i believe pumpsie green was their first black player... and that wasn't until 1959.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
which is why this was wrote
"And the fact that it took until 1959 for Pumpsie Green to integrate the Sox infield speaks volumes."
you serious man?
You had no idea?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Not really
I knew that baseball had a history of racial intolerance but did not know the Red Sox specifically were that bad. This was all before my time obviously. To be honest, I’d be all my “Red Sox Fan” (aka when the Cubs suck) friend even know this.
the city itself, much like chicago, had a history of racial intolerance
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
had/has
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
makes sense
Seems like this occurred in all industrial cities and is still occurring in the rust belt. Apparently every single problem in my city is caused by “the illegals” according to the hicks here.
Its sometimes hard for me to comprehend just how much of an issue played in sports and society overall only a few decades ago. Not saying that the entire issue is solved by any means, but it isn’t as big of a factor.
hopefully such ignorance in the youth
will lead to a better world. If you can’t remember hate maybe it doesn’t happen in the future. I sometimes forget about the young-ins on here.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
But to be fair, just because a city has an issue
does not mean it will automatically manifest itself via its sports team. It seems like the Red Sox actively worked against diversity in baseball. Making a conscious decision to do so.
I'd rec Howard Bryant's book but I can't
because it was a disappointment.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
which book?
you read dave zirin? we can talk more about this topic on RRRR
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
that city is pretty racist to this day if i'm not mistaken.
at least as far as northern cities are concerned. although some would say chicago is spread out on racial lines too. which it is. but i don’t think things are as tough here as in boston.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Boston and Chicago are two of the most
racially segregated cities in the country today, yes.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 5, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
gentrification
aka Residential Segregation. Lots in affluent areas try to pretend that the US doesn’t have very serious poverty in other places.
http://sociologyinmyneighborhood.blogspot.com/2011/01/is-racial-segregation-caused-by-racism.html
assholes everywhere sadly
Thankfully the amount of people who think that way is shrinking every year. Lots of people are not very intelligent so they latch on and attack people that look or act different from them.
it wasn't a dirty little secret either
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
It was Yawkey who said that.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Santo's whining cheapened the whole thing
And I think the playing for the Cubs and later broadcasting for the Cubs played a very large role. This is all opinion though.
Santo's career WAR is higher than Willie McCovey's, Ernie Banks', and Tim Raines'.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
santo was off the ballot at one point due to 4 percent voting. i don't know how he got back on in the first place.
if they did it for him they should do it for lou whitaker god dammit.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Dude..

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 5, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
i'm just mad that whitaker got fucked royally and deserves to be in the hall.
how he is off the ballot and sandberg went in is a crime. lou whitaker was every bit the player sandberg was.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 5, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
by the way... lou whitaker? more WAR than both Sandberg and Santo.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I am not denying that Santo was a good defender, at the plate not so much
I really don’t now how much stock the HOF voters are putting into SABR number though.
So be it though, I did not like how Santo went about it. He is in now and I am glad for his family and fans.
Santo in the HOF is kind of a no brainer to me
A simple comparison of other 3rd basemen elected confirms it. I’m not a small Hall guy though.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Yeah, I think that is also an issue
Santo is a good example for the differences between small vs large hall supporters.
Yes. I'm with you re: small Hall.
Any columnist who ever writes “Hall of Very Good” in a column deserves a kick in the taint.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 5, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
Didn't James rank him 6th best 3B in history? Small/big don't matter.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Minoso didn't whine
You don’t get extra points for dignity, apparently.
by Jim Margalus on Dec 5, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
He did, but it was in Spanish.
Clearly.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
How the hell did Bert get in?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
The whining is why I rooted against Santo while he was alive.
Now that he’s dead, whatever.
"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."
are you whining about Santo's whining?
I’ll never vote you in to the SSS pantheon should one exist someday.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
there is one
It solely consists of banned members. Sort of an anti one.
NAOPOS
by blackoutsox on Dec 5, 2011 2:01 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Are you whining about my whining about Santo's whining?
"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."
The more I re-read the ending of that McGrath column...
Bill Veeck owned the Indians when they signed Minoso in ’48. He brought him back to Chicago in 1960, after buying the White Sox, one of several dubious trades that mortgaged the future of the ’59 pennant winners. Veeck loved Minnie, but using him as a prop in some of his stunts, like pinch-hitting him as a 54-year-old (or a 58-year-old) in 1980, no doubt diminishes his ballplayer bona fides.
Can you imagine the fierce warrior Jackie Robinson or the defiantly proud Roberto Clemente going along with such a gag? But that was Minoso, almost childlike in his love for the game.
Cooperstown? I’m not seeing it, and I’m sorry to say it.
… the more I read it like he’s saying minorities should act the same way. Which is exactly what happened in the ’50s, but in the opposite direction (no brooding allowed).
by Jim Margalus on Dec 5, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
i agree with your interpretation
and FDG
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
So we should condemn him for his "childlike love for the game"?
That makes no sense to me. Doesn’t the fact that he was still playing in his 50s make him a “fierce warrior” (which apparently matters now)? That is very weird logic IMO. He obviously loved playing the game, considering how much he had to endure to do so.
i can imagine the fierce warrior jackie robinson being used as a prop for the "brooklyn dodgers" of the continental football league.
Willie Mays worked as a greeter at a casino.
I’m gonna have to write about this.
by Jim Margalus on Dec 5, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
Without a "childlike love of the game", would the North Side have embraced Banks?
McGrath wrote poorly. Too bad it was in the NY Times.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
"I going" "Who care" "You coulda did"
What is this, blogabull?
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Minoso is also kind of stuck in a hard place
Because apparently he didn’t play long enough in the Negro Leagues to be placed onto that ballot (If I am understanding that situation correctly).
oh. yah. well you said "to be placed onto the ballot"
he was on the ballot. just didn’t get the votes
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I meant the final negro league ballot that was presented to the hall to be voted on
I guess I should have been more clear
thats what i'm talking about. the one from 2 years ago. he was on the ballot.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Ken has a major bug us his rear-end today.
Be fucking accurate or die! ;)
Hey, it is what it is.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
I saw the huge leap in comments on the front page and figured Kenny had pulled the trigger on some deal
instead I get Carlos Lee and Santo stuff
baseball season, please start SOON or I have to jump onto the twit-R band wagon.
White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.
by greenlight on Dec 5, 2011 12:00 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
this made laugh heartily
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
kenny says "f#@% you kenwo"
@Joelsherman1
#Whitesox not messing round, talking Danks, Floyd, but asking big returns right now in seller’s market for SP.
24 minutes ago via Twitter for iPad
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:22 PM CST reply actions
unlike with carlos lee... i'm all good in trading anyone off of this roster not named sale and ramirez.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
this has been a fun day of discussion. don't you guys wish my inlaws took the kids more often?
:-D
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
The inlaws took the kids to DCFS.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
by Chiburb on Dec 5, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
lol. they wanted to take them with their cousins for a holiday brunch.
who am i to stand in the way!
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
get a job already!
:-)
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 5, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Sounds about right.
jaysonst Jayson Stark
Exec who spoke with #Twins says they’ve asked #Rangers about David Murphy
There's an excellent chance I'm being a dum dum
But Did Minoso make the cut, or what?
by Billy Ray Durham on Dec 5, 2011 3:02 PM CST reply actions
Fuck
That really sucks. I just hope he makes it in before he dies. He’s such a nice guy and much deserving. Thanks for the info, though. Appreciated.
by Billy Ray Durham on Dec 5, 2011 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
don't mention Carlos Lee
White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.
by greenlight on Dec 5, 2011 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Via the White Sox facebook page:
SoxFest hotel guests purchasing a weekend pass will receive an exclusive, limited-edition SoxFest Joe Crede bobblehead doll – one per weekend pass purchased. Weekend passes can be purchased at whitesox.com/soxfest
I was going to ask if it comes with the back already messed up.
by Yinka Double Dare on Dec 5, 2011 3:41 PM CST reply actions
Mark B
MLB Rumors just posted.
Three serious offers.All for three years.36-39 mil.
That is not out of reach.
I see the Minoso thing differently.
For him to get 9 votes the first time this committee votes is a positive. He should make it next time.
in 3 years some of the committee members from this time may not be around
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by 



























