The White Sox rebuilding process begins
by larry on Dec 6, 2011 12:45 PM CST
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Kenny Williams arrived at the Winter Meetings last night and it didn't take him long to send his first volley by trading closer Sergio Santos to the Blue Jays for RHP Nestor Molina. Molina is a 22 year old who reached AA at the end of last season. The direction of the White Sox now is pretty clear: rebuilding.
Molina burst onto the prospect scene this season. After relieving for his entire minor league pitching career, he transitioned to the starting rotation at High A Dunedin and was sparkling: 108.1 IP, 102 H, 14 BB, 115 K. After a late season promotion to AA New Hampshire, he continued his dominance: 22 IP, 12 H, 2 BB, 33 K.
His stuff doesn't appear to be of the overpowering variety. There seems to be some debate about velocity, which KW confirmed by saying it was from "90-96 MPH". That's a pretty wide range. It's possible that high end is what he touched when relieving and now he's more in the 90-93 range as a starter. There also is some question about the consistency of his slider, though it does appear that it is a plus pitch when it is on. He also throws a changeup. There is no dispute, however, that he has an excellent splitter. His control is obviously well above average and his command appears to be quite good, as well. His makeup is considered to be off the charts. Amusingly, like Santos, Molina was a position player until 2008 when he was converted to a full-time pitcher. (Video of Molina pitching.)
As for Santos, he was signed to a very team-friendly contract through at least 2014 with options until 2017: next 3 years at $1 million, $2.75 million and $3.75 million and three team option years at $6 million, $8 million and $8.75 million. But the White Sox have significant bullpen depth and can absorb the loss of their anointed closer. Expect to see Jesse Crain given most save opportunities early on. But it also wouldn't be surprising to see a bit of the "closer by committee" we saw last season, particularly if Matt Thornton sticks around.
This appears to be a vote of confidence for Addison Reed. While Reed is unlikely to be ready to be immediately thrown into high leverage situations, he will almost certainly make the club out of spring training and it won't take long for him to prove that he can be trusted in the late innings.
It also shows that Marco Paddy (who just started his job with the White Sox as Special Assistant to the General Manager – International Operations) has KW's ear. Paddy signed Molina when he was with the Blue Jays and was responsible for converting him from a light-hitting outfielder to a lights-out pitcher.
Molina will likely begin the season with AA Birmingham, with an eye towards moving him up to AAA Charlotte by mid-season. The White Sox have been aggressive with pitching prospects in the past - most notably amongst starters, Daniel Hudson - and I would expect Molina's treatment to be the same if he continues to put up good numbers. A late season call-up would likely be the plan.
The deal is a good one for the White Sox. Santos, if things go well, is under team control for 6 years. Molina, if things go well, is under team control for (at least) 6 years. Santos has the upside of being an elite closer. Molina has the upside of being a mid-rotation (or higher) starting pitcher. Mid-rotation starting pitchers are worth more than elite closers. These are the sorts of deals you make if you're rebuilding.
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thanks!!
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 12:49 PM CST reply actions
that was my take as well.
now if we would have gotten a guy like this plus pods and vizcaino in 05 maybe i would have thought differently….
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
You are insufferable
:-)
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
How about "Johnny One-Note".
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
by winningugly on Dec 6, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
why not?
suspect this is gamesmanship on KW’s part, trying to drive up the price for Floyd or Danks. if he’s really rebuilding, he’s gonna cash in his trade chips, right?
As of now may just mean until a couple free agent pitchers sign.
But yeah, it’s probably just gamesmanship, no reason he wouldn’t trade them if he got a good offer at this point.
by Grinder in Training on Dec 6, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
yep thats what i think.
absolutely just saying that til a domino or two drop.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
ahem
shoes drop. dominoes fall
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
clearly you don't watch tv. In the world record exhibition for dominoes falling
they ALWAYS drop from a table to the floor starting the next step of falling dominoes!
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Do the commentators actually use the term "drop" when that happens?
Because to me, “drop” suggests a passiveness that belies the breathtaking kineticism at the heart of domino toppling.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
"Deuces" also "drop".
Just being helpful.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
by winningugly on Dec 6, 2011 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
as does the dewpoint
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
i like kw's approach this year, or maybe he's learning from swisher II
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
he doesnt have the distraction of his son potentially playing in the nfl
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
haha
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
When will Robin Ventura say
“If we have to bring up Molina, we’re in trouble.”
"I enjoy young people." - Jerry "The Creep" Sandusky during Bob Costas' interview (11/14/11)
by tailgater on Dec 6, 2011 12:55 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I didn't realize Middle Earth had a High A team.
Are they the Rangers?
It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.
by SonOfCron on Dec 6, 2011 12:55 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
tdogg, i give you the honors to summarize
Keith Law’s, “Blue Jays get value in Sergio Santos”
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 12:56 PM CST reply actions
Fuck Keith Law
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Dec 6, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
i assume he bashed the trade from the sox perspective?
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
Law Speaks
The White Sox, on the other hand, get an extreme control right-hander without much of a breaking ball who could be a dominant two-pitch reliever, but is probably a year away from seriously contributing in the majors.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Coincidentally, John Sickels loves him.
Grade B+ and #2 on his top 20 prospects list for the jays. Says his sources are much higher on Molina’s stuff than mainstream reports suggest.
I could only see half of the first paragraph
calls him a 2-pitch pitcher, at least a year away.
Personally, I think Law’s past his prime, and is a year away from writing letters to Hustler for a living.
God, that was so gratifying, cancelling my subscription to ESPN.
sideways smiley face
More
He should have a significant role in the pen even if he ends up exclusively a fastball/splitter guy. Molina is a good prospect, probably the best now in a fallow White Sox system, but the return seems a little light for a major-league reliever signed to a very affordable three-year deal.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
So basically
the surplus value of this trade depends on whether Molina’s slider develops as a consistent 3rd pitch. Otherwise, he’s a solid bullpen arm.
FKL
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Dec 6, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
What a douchebag.
FKLITA. Really.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
I don't care
Fuck him.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Dec 6, 2011 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Fair, shamare.
He’s been unfair for months/years. Bend over backwards for us, bastard. Overcorrect.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
is there a reason he doesn't mention molina's strikeout numbers?
Easy chief
We’re a community - Tdogg
The potential cost-benefit on this deal, which you outline in the last paragraph, is much more to my liking
even a middle case scenario — where Molina can’t hack it as a starter but turns into a decent reliever — makes the deal a wash. Limited downside (provided Santos can’t actually start), and pretty big upside. I like it.
I’ve gotta say, though, that I’m not convinced that this is the deal that signals rebuilding. Can probably make a better case for it if Danks and/or Floyd go.
And I did see that Mark Gonzalez tweet re: KW's rebuilding quote
but I’m unsure if that means actually blowing it up or just 2008 style integration of younger guys.
He also hates rebuilding
So until Danks or Floyd are headed out the door I’m inclined to believe he may take a let’s see what they can do approach.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Hey man I'm just the messenger
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
KW is going toclean house.
If I can tell the “not trading starting pitching” is a smokescreen, everyone can. Santos got moved first because he was so easy to move. The return they got was a worse version of Santos in A-ball. That speaks volumes about how determined KW is to get value. He wants to dump players, and I think you can be sure Danks and Q are gone and I would guess a few others as well.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 6, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions
Kenny obviously didn't want the closer market to dry up
while he was tied up orchestrating an Alex Rios bidding war.
sideways smiley face
Hee -- me, the optimist.
Can you clarify your comments re: Goldstein from the last thread? Is it just a matter of Molina having better stuff than KG is giving credit for?
taking my comment to osfib over here...
i don’t like that there isn’t an obvious consensus about the guy’s skill set considering what we gave up. i like what larry said in his post though. if you buy that KW did his homework and this guy’s legit, then you’re trading a guy w/ 2 WAR upside under team control for a 3-4 WAR upside guy under team control.
i’m just wary of the whole “KW did his HW” thing. Molina doesn’t sound like he’s going to be in any top 100 list outside of Sickels, which means matching the surplus value of Santos’ contract hinges on KW really knowing his stuff. why not just get someone whose consensus is actually valued in the appropriate range at a position we’re less skilled at producing on our own?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
thats where the scouting guy paddy prado purty whatever his name is comes in.
he was part of a blue jays system that obviously did do their homework.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Despite concerns about stuff, not putting Molina on a top 100 list is batshit crazy.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
doesn't sound like BA, KG or KL is going to do it from what i read in the other post
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
that's 3/4 of the baseball scouting journalist community
all with connections to actual major league scouts.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I just don't see how he's not in the 80-100 range, even if you have serious doubts. You can't just ignore the peripherals.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=7487&position=P
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
That comp is so stupid it practically drools.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
it's not a comp.
my point is you can ignore peripherals.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
In some cases, yeah. Of course there's precedent for it, but I think it's pretty out there to dismiss Molina as a non-top 100 prospect, even if you are Callis/KG/KL.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions
based on what?
just his numbers? hence the Egbert link. it’s larry, his source and Sickels vs. BA/KG/KL. i know which side i prefer, but who do you think the BA/KG/KL faction is talking to? cacti? there’s plenty of precedent for ignoring peripherals on the basis of stuff.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Based on the fact that he has good command, a (potential) plus-plus splitter, and a fastball that (reportedly) sits 90-93. He also hasn't been pitching very long. I don't think this is very radical.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
these are reports, not facts.
that’s the whole point. if KG hears from his guy that Molina is a guy with reliever upside, he’s not getting anywhere near a top 100. and that’s not crazy, he’s trusting his sources. i think larry and Sickels are more likely to be right, but those sources exist and should be taken to mean something.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
The debate isn't about whether or not those opinions are taken to mean something, it's about whether it would be crazy to leave Molina out of the top 100.
I think it’s aggressively obtuse to leave Molina out of the top 100. Of course KG and KL have opinions that must be weighted.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
you're saying if larry's right, then it's aggressively obtuse?
because i don’t see how you can have a prior about something you know nothing about.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I'm saying that those guys would be going out of their way to discount pitchability.
And, yes, that would be aggressively obtuse, in my opinion. It’s a top 100 list — being in BA’s or Law’s or KG’s top 100 isn’t some remarkable or amazing accomplishment, and isn’t reserved for flawless players.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions
how are they supposed to know about
his presumed pitchability? why would they actively ignore it if they were familiar with it? i don’t get what you’re saying. they have scouts whom they trust to give them reports and those reports probably didn’t include “craaazay pitchability yo!” anywhere in the text.
fastball/splitter guys that aren’t shutdown closer material don’t make top 100 lists. what’s aggressively obtuse about that?
it’s just as likely that you’re not appropriately weighting their opinions than they are being obtuse.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I have no idea what you're even pawing at in that first paragraph.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
i cannot without further assistance from either a forensics lab or a divining rod make out even that which could charitably termed an argument
they read reports and assemble a list. as long as their list is consistent with their reports, i don’t know how you can call them stupid/obtuse/whatever.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
You're right colin, no one has ever gleaned anything about pitchability from one's ability to strike guys out/not allow guys on base.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
that obviously being my claim
it’s a good thing you refuted it so ably.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you here, Colin. I respect your analysis and then you're generally level-headed.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
kind of late for that.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Do you want me to mail you like $11 and an apology note or something?
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 2:33 PM CST up reply actions
That'll just about cover the divining rod
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Dec 6, 2011 3:01 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I am curious though: do you think KG and KL are just passing along information and nothing else?
I only ask because your assertion that “they read reports and assemble a list” seems to discount their role in forming an opinion about the guys they rate. Surely they lean on their sources and guys in the field, but I’d think they have their own biases about what types of players they prefer that have little to do with what scouts are saying.
Unless I misunderstood what you were getting at.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
KG's fairly up front about his biases
As I recall he prefers his pitchers big and hard throwing. Self-described velo whore.
I’m pretty sure in one of his podcasts last off season he described his process. It’s about like you’d expect. He’s in contact with a ton of people and synthesizes it.
I think colin’s about right. These guys are more voices of what consensus they can find in reports on players than anything. Their personal filters aren’t going to cause them to discount glowing reports on a guy.
I'm sure they exercise judgment and strive
to have opinion independent of their sources. But I would guess what happens is that they end up with sources who tend to agree with them already. Sources and reporters are selecting for each other, so the actual disagreement between them as time goes down as they sort through whom they each trust the most. At this point, KG and KL are institutions and have an SOP that probably doesn’t lead to a lot of independent skepticism of reports. They have guys they’ve learned to trust, meanwhile they’re able to have a breadth of opinion that im sure their readers collectively put a premium on. KL probably privileges his opinion over other scouts far more than KG does.
I take larry’s explanation for truth since I doubt he’d say it if he wasn’t positive. But it surprised me that the prospect guys would be that willing to offer opinions w/o an accompanying caveat about the nature of their information. Well, not Law, but I held KG in higher regard than that. It does reaffirm my preference for Sickels, who seems to be the most interested both in making sure his method updates appropriately with new information and qualifying his opinions by declaring what he thinks he knows relative to the consensus.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Dec 6, 2011 4:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
i just want him to be right
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
with him only pitching for a couple years
would his development be at the level of a younger player though?
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
I more inclined to think like that after this year with his breakout last.
Wouldn’t a similar this year send him skyrocketing up the list? I mean more than just barely making it?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
iirc, Hellickson and Sonnanstine would be decent comps for how that would work
right?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
that would be nice
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
Hellickson definitely
Again just the path not necessarily the stuff. If this kid is legit next year he flies up the charts.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
And if not, he's a one-hit wonder.
Even if Jenks-like I don’t think we’ll be kicking ourselves forever over trading him. I like the contract more than his stuff.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
his stuff?
he’s got three plus plus pitches. you can’t mean his stuff.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
As stated below,
he’s a reliever, and was not projected to be a starter. " I like his contract better than his role" would be more accurate than my previous statement.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
that works for me.
though i put a premium on guys that are fun to watch.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
that's fair
a reliever with 3 pus pitches doesnt add value
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
man, I haven't seen the old pus ball since Satchel Page.
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
yeah I love Santos's stuff
it was sick.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
definitely gonna miss watching him pitch
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I believe he will be televised.
The revolution, sadly, will not be.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
I got the impression BA would
I think Goldstein might re-evaluate after seeing him. He’s not Law
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Does KG even go out and see guys play or still rely on his network?
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
He does both
But to me he seems to come to his conclusion and sticks with it.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
He sees the guys in the Midwest League
He doesn’t seem to have traveled a lot lately. But otherwise, yeah, he’s a rely on his network guy. But he has cultivated a deep network it seems.
So on Molina, he probably saw him as a reliever for Lansing, and the scouts he was with probably didn’t think much of him.
Molina had a breakout season, but from the sounds of it, he may not be the kind of pitcher who would get reports from fully engorged scouts who are falling in love (see the explosion of Addison Reed). So when a prospect expert comes calling to ask about a Molina he’ll get a lot of “nice pitcher” “like, don’t love” type feedback, and probably guys still hung up on their old evaluations. So new thinking on Molina hasn’t had a chance to take root.
In a system desperate for prospects, as a good defender with some offensive value, Escobar is the real deal.
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:18 PM CST up reply actions
what's the upside for an elite reliever?
probably 2 WAR a season. and that’s rare. it doesn’t take much for a starting pitcher to average that. fangraphs made the point that if molina is paul maholm, the white sox win the trade in a walk.
yeah, just read this, posted the 'why/motivation' part of this post below
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
right, i get that.
and it’s reassuring to hear you’ve got a guy who’s seen him and says he’s legit, that quells a lot of my concerns. i only just got to that comment on the other post. it’s also reassuring that the Sox are the least likely of any club to be susceptible to TINSTAAPP.
but i remain wary. presumably there’s a reason why KG/KL/BA listened to their sources and didn’t bother seeing him in person. they’ve got guys they trust too.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
yeah i'd like to know how up to date their summary of the guy is collectively
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
they didn't bother to see him in person because KG lives in dekalb, law lives in arizona and BA is clustered around the carolinas.
molina played in the florida state league and the eastern league this season. he played in the midwest league last season, when he was a reliever, but KG likely never saw him since he didn’t pitch at kane county. these guys aren’t exactly flying around the country to see players.
if that's the case, then why do we care that they haven't seen them in person?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
i mentioned this in passing in a post last week.
in person scouting >>> compiling scouting reports.
let’s just keep in mind, one could probably count on one hand the number of people who have seen molina pitch more than marco paddy. who also had access to the largest information database on molina until 8 days ago. this is a fair trade.
"Fair" is an improvement from
“pantsed” or “cornholed”. I can accept “fair”.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
just to be clear
i don’t see it as anything near Hudson/Holmberg.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Was that "pantsed" or "cornholed"?
I believe it was “prison raped”.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
every time I see those two names, I think of my son and how he could have had a Hudson White Sox jersey.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Change his name to "Molina".
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
i would think that an aggregate of truthful scouting reports
would be better than a single guy’s opinion. even if seeing a guy in person adds to that consensus, i wouldn’t think it would be by the amount you’re indicating.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
if by truthful you mean up to date.
perhaps. that is what i’m questioning about these guys. when a pitcher is a reliever and then becomes a starter, the scouting report changes. when a pitcher is young and developing, the scouting report changes. he took a pretty big step forward this season. i see BA telling me that he has abandoned his slider for a curveball. KW said at his press conference he has a “plus slider”. who to believe? i have KG telling me his fastball velocity is 88-93. KW says 90-96. sickels says 90-94. my guy who saw him pitch for new hampshire says he 92-94. who to believe?
I'm very much inclined to believe you
but I really thought the non-Sickels guys would do a better job at their job than that. If you can get an up-to-date report, why can’t they?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Dec 6, 2011 4:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
here's the thing about, say, velocity.
all of those ranges may be right. because each of them spoke to someone who saw the guy pitch on different days.
both law and goldstein presumably have reports on guys already. and they probably called their FSL or maybe eastern league scout contact to get a report. but this is a starting pitcher, not a position player. that scout maybe saw him once or twice. seeing a pitcher when he’s trying a new grip for his slider or is a bit tired and doesn’t have his velocity or whatever will seriously color a report.
these guys all may be about right. i’m actually not seeing a great deal of difference in the reports, more in the conclusions. but the guy i emailed saw all four of molina’s home starts for new hampshire after his promotion. other than blue jays personnel, i doubt there’s anyone else who can say that. and i know he didn’t talk to KG or KL. so i’ll be the stubborn asshole standing by my source.
How much of that phenomenon is responsible
for the difference in performance of the top pitching prospects v. hitting? there’s a greater spread in performance because they aren’t being scouted as thoroughly?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Dec 6, 2011 6:39 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It sounds like Maholm is his ceiling though
I know everyone hates Law here, but what he said looks pretty objective to me: Molina profiles as a two pitch reliever. We can all be happy we know that closers aren’t that valuable, but I’d still like to see a better return than a guy that hopes to be Paul Maholm in two years.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 6, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
Law also sees Sale as a two-pitch reliever.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
by U-God on Dec 6, 2011 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
technically
he saw sale as a two-pitch reliever and seems to be standing by his claim that sale’s delivery is too complex to be repeatable for 7 innings a go.
he has repeatedly called Sale an Ace reliever, 2-3 innings a shot.
technically
those scouts that he relies on for information were completely wrong. and, interestingly, the scouts he talked to about sale are probably many of the same scouts he talked to about molina.
Is that why Law doesn't back down?
He’s backing his sources?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Dec 6, 2011 3:19 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Are you Mr. Law?
Fine, stick up for your son. We don’t like his kind here, sir.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
Law is pretty clearly a smug jackass
But that doesn’t mean he is totally incompetent.
It does mean I would dislike seeing the Sox prove him right in his opinion of the organization. So here’s hoping KW can pull off some better trades than this one.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 6, 2011 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
that's law's downside risk for Molina
well, total downside is arm falls off.
Law doesn’t rule out Molina being a mid-rotation starter, merely questions the lack of an advanced breaking pitch. which is totally fair, he wouldn’t need one to mow down everyone in A ball if he has a well controlled fb and a nasty splitter.
The trade is fine.
But we have no room for additional smug jackasses on this site, so Mr. Law is persona-non-grata.
Wait, “additional smug jackasses who don’t root for the White Sox”. Fixed.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
I'm kind of with you on the consensus thing.
It seems like Kenny could have leveraged more out of the Jays. Even if Molina turns out to have been an absolute steal in a few years as we all hope, right now, today, it’s Santos for a guy with mixed reports. I guess because the White Sox always throw in a ton of minor league talent in exchange for a major leaguer, I expected the same in return.
by mechanical turk on Dec 6, 2011 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
where's our Holmberg?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
ugh, don't remind me
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
closer from
eno sarris (link)
But the questions still remains: why start the rebuilding process by trading Santos, the most reasonable and valuable trade chip the White Sox might have? The answer might lie with perception.
Once a team begins a rebuild process openly, the vultures begin to swarm. Going forward, the White Sox will receive buy-low offers on virtually every one of their major league players on veteran contracts. They may complete some of those trades, but the perception of their team as rebuilding will shift the power towards the buyers.
So if you have one really good trade chip on a team mostly made up of also-ran veterans on iffy contracts, you trade your one good piece first. For the best prospect you can find. And then you announce that you are rebuilding, so that you can field the less exciting offers for the rest of your team.
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:06 PM CST reply actions
boras client
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
True, though there's sure to be plenty of interest in guys like Floyd, Danks and Quentin.
As long as KW plays his cards right, he should be able to get some solid returns, regardless of whether or not teams know he wants to rebuild.
Warning: Cowley
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Matt Thornton to Atlanta is picking up steam. Keep an eye on it.
Reporter from the AJC shot it down as bullshit.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
It didn't totally compute to me
I have the impression the Braves are fairly budget conscious with their corporate owners. Not necessarily cheap, just they have a pretty strict budget. And Thornton’s contract makes him more of a luxury item.
But the Braves may look at their division as ripe for the taking for a couple years here. Philles are aging, the Mets are a mess. The Nats are couple years away and Marlins still need to fix their starting pitching.
yeah, tweeted 'bogus'
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 2:07 PM CST up reply actions
Santos
Kenny says that yes this is rebuilding but not the first domino.
Of course this is the first domino.Who is he trying to kid.
Low-risk first move.
Does seem to telegraph moves to come re: rebuilding vs. “all-in”. I’m glad we are rebuilding. Good to set the expectation early and not have wailing during spring training or, worse, in May/June when we are getting hammered, because we “should” be doing together. No pressure.
Dunn ought to have a monster year. Watch for this.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
it's only low risk if you're sure Santos isn't a starter
Coop is probably a good judge of that, though he was presumably integral in the Hudson debacle.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Has anyone even brought up Santos starting aside from, well, you?
Not a dig, just curious.
by Craig Grebeck on Dec 6, 2011 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
not really.
it’s very reasonable to suspect he can’t. but that’s different from an objective certainty. tail risk is a bitch.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Anthopolous or whatever the toronto GM said he's going to close.
and that they viewed molina as a starter.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
You're right about that
Coop was definitely complicit in that Hudson fuck up.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
somehow i just realized that.
i think my brain refused to contemplate the possibility that he could be wrong.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
You and KenWo
are soulmates. Embrace the possibilities of people being wrong.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
"tail risk is a bitch"
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I wouldn't call it low-risk in any sense.
Molina only has ~130 innings as a starter, and 22 innings in AA. His body of work is light compared to other top pitching prospects. There is a non-marginal probability he either doesn’t make it to the majors at all or fails to have success once he does make it. Zach Stewart was also a B+ Sickles pitching prospect less than one year ago. Of course I like the upside of this deal, but I think it’s pretty risky.
by 3E8 on Dec 6, 2011 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
I call it low risk because relievers are fungible.
Santos is not a building block. He’s cheap and has had a good year. We are not trading a cornerstone of the franchise.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
Still, Santos looks to provide $10M+ in surplus value over the next three years
in the closer role. That especially beneficial on a team with multiple albatrosses. Hopefully Molina reaches his upside. But low-risk to me is like the bench spot we gave Andruw Jones for league min a few years ago.
by 3E8 on Dec 6, 2011 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How often have relievers flamed out after a good year?
I’ll not hold my breath over the “lost” $10M in surplus value over 3 years for a reliever.
Also, if we loved Santos so much, and needed a starter, why was he not converted to a starter? I think the deal is a decent deal. And it does open up the floodgates of other potential moves, so using this to telegraph intent is also prudent.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
If KW had decided that he wanted to rebuild, Santos was really an easy piece to deal.
What’s the point of a top-tier closer when you aren’t planning on protecting many leads? Might as well trade him while his value is high.
FOG
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
By the way, Ozzie was shocked that Santos was traded and said laughing, "Hell, they should have called us…we’ll take him, too.’’
19 minutes ago
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:32 PM CST reply actions
I'm very intrigued to see them next year
Should be fun when Ozzie starts openly pining for the Braves young players. Not to mention, that’s a lot of personality in that clubhouse.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Dec 6, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
It'll be great to hear what Ozzie thinks of every Sox -- Thanks Joe!
I thought Ozzie only cared about what went on in his own clubhouse. No?
by hitlesswonder on Dec 6, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
forget he-who-shall-remain-nameless, what does Wilford Brimley think of this trade, Joe?
White Sox 2012: Helplessly hoping.
KW mixed metaphor alert
Now, is it the start of falling-domino rebuilding? No. Absolutely not.
via Gonzalez
I can't enter this paid subscribed site
but BP don’t appear to be high on molina
Molina has been one of the representatives of the divide between stats and scouts when it comes to some prospects. On the surface, one sees a 22-year-old who reached Double-A last year while putting up a 2.21 ERA and racking up more than 10 strikeouts per nine inning. Unfortunately, in the land of prospects, what you do is often trumped by how you do it, and in Molina’s case, the stuff falls well below the statistics.
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 1:38 PM CST reply actions
Hey, even if the Sox end up on the wrong side of this deal
I’m happy to see them go for the stats side of a stats/scout divide for once
Is Linebrink available?
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
goldstein is on the score right now.
has been on a few minutes already.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
i wasn't really listening closely (champions league games are on!)
but i think he said best case is maybe a 3 starter. mentioned similar to jair jurrjens.
i’m sure it will be available on line sometime soon.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
that is a sucky recap
815!!
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
yeah, i know. sorry. very important soccer matches take precedent.
also, calm down T.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
he said he isn't going to be a star. A number 4 starter with upside of a jair jurrjens.
sox dealt from position of strength though.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
More from Sickels
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
he's still up on him
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
I like that Sickels loves him.
And I think I also like that Law doesn’t like him.
Love it.
Relievers are fungible, and Nestor Molina is a starter (now). I don’t know much about him, but Minor League Ball ranked him the second-best Jays prospect for 2012, behind only Travis d’Arnaud, and in front of pitchers like Nicolino, Syndergaard and Norris. In other words, I already like him better than Zach Stewart.
On the other hand, I can’t help but wonder if KW couldn’t have gotten more from a less intelligent GM. Anthopoulos is a damn snake, which is awesome for Toronto.
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
A damn snake who traded for Jeff Mathis earlier this week.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
He forgot to mention he is a snake that is consuming its tail
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Is that like when guys can blow themselves?
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
not really wu...not really you sick bastard
Ouroboros
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
His other trade with the Angels still far outweighs that one.
Dealing with a different GM in Anaheim now though.
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
wasn't Dipoto the guy that swung the Hudson for Jackson trade
Where the white women at?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGQ-ISsDm8M
by parkernutws05 on Dec 6, 2011 6:19 PM CST up reply actions
Ventura wants to stay away from closer by committee per several twats
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Dec 6, 2011 2:37 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
lol
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
"Once I get Cooper's approval, of course," he added quickly.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
So to recap:
Santo is in, Minoso is not, Santos is out.
There is some form of algebraic equation that can be spun here, but I’m not good at math.
Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.
math is useless
or so i’m told
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
Ventura needs to shut up, this and the defined closer thing
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
no shit
I DO like how these meetings are bringing out Ventura’s thoughts and fancies. It is time for me to start building my anti-Ventura inner-circle. I’ve been waiting in the rice patties.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Dec 6, 2011 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
i just mean most managers would opt for a defined closer.
thats not crazy to hear. Adam dunn shagging fly balls? borderline insanity.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i have a working theory about ventura (nothing to do with these latest particular announcements and not meaning to judge whether or not he could be a competent manager)
and it is that he is a stiff.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Do you want to be Special Assistant to the President of Anti-Ventura Fan Club
or do you want to want to run the show?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
thanks but i think i'll pass on a title.
it is just my opinion that when god was handing out personalities, instead of getting in that line ventura got into the baseball playing line again.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Can you invent fake kids to sign up for that club and get free shit?
by South Side Expat on Dec 6, 2011 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
Only if you're a card carrying Republican
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Maybe he's just trying to get Dunn killed
Ruthless, kinda like a four-star general…
by WSO on Dec 6, 2011 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Dunn
If he does get Dunn killed,you we still have to the rest of his contract?
I,m just asking
accidentally.
the whole thing.
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center. -KV
by The Face on Dec 6, 2011 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Lil Jimmy
takes subject line
too literally
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
With all the offseason working out Dunn is sure to be doing, he
is going to be a slim, trim, and ready to patrol, right?
by South Side Expat on Dec 6, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
why would Dunn even need to be in OF?
seems like that would happen only if Quentin is gone and they don’t trust Viciedo and De Aza to play every day. wait, I guess I just answered my own question.
so if Konerko is DH, then Dunn plays 1B
and if PK is DH and some other presumably competent bat is at 1B, then Dunn might play OF, I guess, but how and why would that happen?
methinks this is actually a 4 star general leadership technique to make sure Dunn shows up in shape.
Or so he can see what HR's look like up close so he can learn to visualize them
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Dec 6, 2011 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, we now know whether or not Ventura will be a good manager
That didn’t take long.
I await his disquisition on how the Sox need to bunt more and issue more IBBs.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 6, 2011 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
aaaaaand I am back to thinking he is a great manager
thanks alot!
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Glad to help...
Sheesh. Of course we don’t know if he’ll be any good or not yet .
He might be great manager that simply has the quirk pf playing Dunn in the field. Or, In fact, by the time the season rolls around Ventura might sober up and never play Dunn in the field.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 6, 2011 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
Ozzie said the same thing about getting him some OF time I believe
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
For games in NL parks.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
You can't spell hitlesswonder without an SSH.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Or lost swine herd!
“O, the swindlers”?
by mechanical turk on Dec 6, 2011 5:58 PM CST up reply actions
Position players are more valuable trading chips than DHs.
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
oh boy. apparently ventura just said that dunn will play field more next year. including outfield.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 6, 2011 2:52 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
OK....I thought of one reasonable explanation
Like WSO posted, Ventura’s intentionally trying to get Dunn on the DL so he’s out of the lineup. That’s arguably a good call.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 6, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
Just went to the future and took this action shot
SHOW GREG WALKER THE NEW EMPLOYEE ORIENTATION VIDEO!
That can't be the future
Where’s his jet pak?
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Dec 6, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Titanium Northrop Grumman tentacles are missing as well
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
My two cents.
Santos for a guy that hasn’t pitched above double A. Could have and should gotten more. Dunn in the field more?
I am developing a major league case of the ass right now. Here we go.
Sabermetrics hurt my head, just give me the facts.
I don't understand this statement
Santos for a guy that hasn’t pitched above double A
To me its sort of a flaw to never trade for prospects further out.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
was thinking similarly
not every trade partner has to be a rape victim. by larry on Dec 5, 2011 1:07 PM EST
by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 6, 2011 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
Should have held out for a quad-A player.
That’s twice as many As!
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Did you read the sentence after that? There's my beef.
Sabermetrics hurt my head, just give me the facts.
my two cents:
molina didn’t even make my blue jays prospect list. actually, i don’t even have a blue jays prospect list.
take it for what it’s worth. it is what it is.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
I thought we traded for a catcher.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
by Chiburb on Dec 6, 2011 6:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
ventura is going to be on CSN at 5 on their hot stove show.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
(which by the way is a pretty lame show)
but… its better than nothing.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I'm still having trouble
Believing that anything he says at this point is his own opinion.
NAOPOS
by blackoutsox on Dec 6, 2011 4:31 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
let me just tell you... they talked about the hall of fame vote on this show for a little bit...
that silly fucking hooza gail fischer pronounced minoso’s name MinosA… and that is how they spelled it on the graphic. i got fucking pissed and turned it off.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I don't know how I feel on this
At first glance, I didn’t like it because I thought that Santos will be on a high note this season. Projections from Fangraphs show Sergio should have a decent year, thus increasing his trade value. However, I do see the potential for upside and agree the minors need restocking.
I’m still bemused on the Frasor signing in the wake of this but we shall see how the dominoes fall (or drop).
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
I'm hoping it means he'll be traded
in which case I’ll possibly have to apologize.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Dec 6, 2011 4:38 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
He is actually better.
Danks : Lefty with 4.33 ERA, 170 IP, 8 Wins, 26 Years Old.
Jimenez: Righty, 4.66ERA, 188IP, 10 Wins, 27 Years Old.
I would much gather trade for Danks than Jimenez.
Difference being the contract.
Ubaldo is signed long-term at a pretty reasonable rate if I’m not mistaken.
Why would anyone give up that much for one year of Danks?
KW should have traded him a year ago if he wanted a big return.
This will fill some seats—Crasnick
Aaron Rowand’s agents have talked to the #WhiteSox about a return engagement in Chicago. He wants to play in 2012.
Where will he play?
with dunn, rios, viciedo, quentin, lillibridge and de aza.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
late to the party. i suggested this 2 or 3 weeks ago.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Man.
Whos going to go? Quentin, Thornton, Danks, Floyd, Ohman, Pierzysnki, Konerko, maybe Dunn? If we trade all of them, could probably net us a huge boatload of prospects. I doubt anyone would give up anything for Ohman, and Pierzynski probably would net some borderline prospects. I don’t want to see Konerko go.
Houdini
Only Harry Houdini could make Dunn and Rios disappear.
Please,please, please Santa if I can have one thing for Christmas.
Just one would be great Santa.You choose.
I promise I will be a good boy.Cross my heart and hope to die.Stick a needle in my eye.
I don't think Houdini has it in his power to remove Rios.
Teams though still might have enough faith that Dunn isn’t done, and that he can hit 35 hrs if rejuvenated in a new city. They might be nice enough to take him off our hands in a deal probably along the lines of Dunn w/$25 million for borderline contract.
its almost time to take it to the next level
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
Houdini was an escape artist, not David Copperfield.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Stop with the facts already.
They’ll hate you if you really make them think.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
David Copperfield was an orphan and a gentleman
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Dec 6, 2011 7:09 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
if the sox rebuild and aren't in contention....
Does that mean that Adam Dunn will mash 57 homers, since the pressure will be off?
I cannot answer any more questions for you today. I has wickeds gas from drink too manys redbull.
indubitably
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
Not enough for Santos?
Do you guys really think one AA prospect is enough for Santos? I mean, I know he had some rough moments in 2011………but one freaking prospect for this guy was the best KW could do? In my mind, the only way this deal doesn’t kill KW is if Molina turns out to be a top of the rotation guy. If he turns out to be another Lorenzo Barcelo, this could be the beginning of the end for KW.
This would be the beginning of the end?
No. Swisher II was the beginning of the end.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
The Hudson for Jackson debacle
was pretty bad but Kenny seems entrenched……….Reinsdorf is nothing if not loyal. Seriously though, one AA guy for Santos? I find it hard to believe that that is the best KW could do.
Why lorenzo bacelo?
Why not scott tuffcorn? Racist?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I think the "mid-rotation" vs. "top of the rotation" thing is a little overblown.
While you’d clearly rather have the former than the latter, the Sox have done much better with a collection of mid-rotation guys than a lot of teams (i.e. Seattle) have with a Cy Young winner surrounded by crap. There’s nothing wrong with a cheap mid-rotation guy that pitches 200 innings every year.
he's saying that any regular starter is worth more than except maybe the most elite relievers
NAOPOS
Yeah I follow.
And that wasn’t necessarily directed at craig, more at jonmaster above who said “this doesn’t come back to kill kenny only if he’s a top of the rotation guy”. I don’t think that could be any further from the truth.
Getting rid of Dunn and/or Rios.....
Could you not package a Danks or Floyd with one of these guys? Maybe take back AJ Burnett and some cash and a low level prospect and hopefully Cooper turns Burnett back into at least a middle of the rotation guy? I don’t know who else Boston/NY has that they would like to unload. Burnett gets 16 million a year but I’ll bet Coop get make him serviceable.
Why would we want Burnett?
He hasn’t been worth a damn in years and gives up too many homeruns. If we’re selling Danks and Floyd, I’d rather not use them as Edwin Jacksons in trades.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
We don't want him.........
but they’d probably want to get rid of him for taking Dunn or Rios. Maybe we could get rid of them without taking that big contract/bad attitude/lack of performance. But, if anyone can fix him, it is Coop.
for cal eldred and jose valentin!!!1
greatest trade in fucking history.
by obnoxious american on Dec 6, 2011 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
Dunn and Q to the Cubs for Soriano and DeJesus.
by South Side Expat on Dec 6, 2011 7:27 PM CST up reply actions
Nobody is taking Dunn or Rios as is....
However, it’s possible one of those crap-by-crap trade be possible. They are usually crap though….garbage in garbage out.
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
by JofpGallagher on Dec 6, 2011 7:28 PM CST up reply actions
I hate AA for managing to trade Vernon Wells.
Mostly because we have to read this shit.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Wasn't he able to
do that because Wells started to look like the Vernon Wells of old?
That and Tony Reagins went off his meds apparently.
But seriously, that’s what the Sox have to hope for from Dunn and Rios this season. Just enough rebound that they can sucker someone into picking up those contracts.
True
Without that these guys end their contracts here most likely.
as far as the budget goes, that'll be fine.
they don’t need to dump them for salary-relief (especially after next year), they need to move them for sucky-relief. not going to happen.
Wet Blanket
Don’t harsh my buzz Mr. Buzz Kill.
This boy has a dream
The reason you wouldn't do that...
is you’d get a totally BS return like they did for Jackson at the deadline this year when they used him to get rid of Teahen. At this point, if they are willing to eat the money and be patient, they are better off building the minor league system, hoping for some minor rebounds.
Good point
He must have had one more year to go only………..but he did have a 6 Era the year before we traded him. Schueler worked some magic at times, no question.
Brad Bergeson? Ugh
This is who we want from the O’s according to Merkin……….wow.
he said that is one of the names floated by the orioles.
didn’t say that is who we want.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Do you know anything about him?
I saw that he is 26 and his stats are marginal.
i see he's 26 and he's a 4A pitcher.
not someone i want back unless there are other names with him
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Live near DC, we get all the O's games.
Nothing special, he’s probably a swingman at best. Really has no place in a decent rotation. Like KenWo said, if he’s the main piece in a trade, KW got fleeced again.
Now if they are willing to sell low on Matusz...
I’m all ears.
id be more inclined to take matusz as well. but damn he was rotten last year.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I'd buy low on him in a second.
Coop has done great with a lot less.
Bergeron would be like the third player in a Q/Floyd trade.
How about some Adam Jones, Prospect and Bergeron for Q/Floyd and Frasor?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Brother of Menelaus!
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
by U-God on Dec 6, 2011 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
BOOSH!
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
by U-God on Dec 6, 2011 8:16 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
If you liked Sealab or like Archer, you'll like it.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I loved Sealab and liked what little I saw from Archer
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Hollywood Squares!
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Dec 6, 2011 9:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't really see the O's matching up with them in terms of prospects.
They aren’t moving Machado or Bundy and past that there’s not a lot to like. They aren’t going to give up young pitching.
bundy is a must have prospect in my keeper league this year
I DON’T KNOW I GOT IT FROM MY NEE-NAW WHEN I WAS BUT FIVE
Thanks for the recap larry, was curious what you would think of this deal.
I’m ok with the trade. Obviously I would have rather seen them deal Thornton of Crain, but Santos clearly had the most value and brought back a better player than either of those guys could. My question is, do you think they got enough? I like what I’m reading about Molina, but I kind of expected at least another throw-in or two. I didn’t think of the Paddy connection, so that makes me a bit more confident as well.
Regardless, I’m actually a little excited. I never thought KW would actually “rebuild”, at least by my definition. Now I’m just keeping my fingers crossed that he manages to get back some nice talent and not get fleeced for Danks, Floyd, Quentin, et al.
Yeah, that's what freaked me out....
I just hope we can get some studs if we do unload guys like Danks, Floyd and Quentin. The return for Santos wasn’t good enough, imho. KW scares me to death with his trades.
Punctuation saves lives?
Let’s eat, Grandma!
Says the man throwing 10 periods in at a time per sentence.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
either im whoshed or my brain just exploded
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
Sorry, man
but ram your taint into your monitor……hilarious.
Its still there now start licking
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Dec 6, 2011 7:46 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I apologize to you
Only you a-a-and everyone……..else
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
last i checked its ellipsisisisisisis
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
I thought you might be all over this
I was right. Carry on.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Beckham...
anyone else curious why he’s coming up in rumors? I’d prefer to see him with a real hitting coach before they give up on him completely. Read that it would “make sense for him to go if they are actually rebuilding”. He’s young and cost controlled, why would he be out the door?
Selling low on Beckham
doesn’t make much sense……….agree with you here. Might as well see if he can rebound.
iseewhatyoudidthere
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
Yeah, that would be nice
if we could get something of value for him at this point. So far, the scouts that pointed to Beckham’s long swing as a major problem, are right on.
They may have decided he's not going to get better and simply want him gone
Maybe they think they can get a cheap middle reliever for him now, and they wouldn’t after another year of very bad offense.
I’d rather they didn’t trade him now either, since they can certainly give him one last shot if they are rebuilding. But it is hard to be optimistic after 2 pretty bad seasons.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 6, 2011 7:53 PM CST up reply actions
kenny was pissed at walker because of beckham last year,
i doubt he’d be angry if he thought bacon had peaked.
I was a bit of WTF KW? type of reaction....
However, after reading larry’s comments, and some of the posts here, I think that the upside could end up in our favor, but not next season (maybe not even in 2013). So Robin needs to figure out a closer (unless KW has an “ace” under his sleeve nobody is seeing…doubt it). I guess time will tell, and maybe the next moves KW may or may not do. I just hope we don’t do a Hudson deal with this kid Molina (unless he blows).
Warning: Read my posts at your own risk!
If they are both still on the team...
I’d like to see a Thornton/Crain combo in the ninth. Play the matchups. Kind of like Bobby Cox did with Soriano and Mike Gonzalez a couple years back.
Reminding myself to hit reply
Yeah, but we tried Thornton in that role last year and he was terrible, right? But I agree with a previous post….if we are going to win 70 games next year, who cares who closes!
Emphasis on PLAYING THE MATCHUPS.
That means you use Thornton, for instance, to get through a potential Mauer/Morneau combo in the ninth and Crain against Cabrera for Detroit. That’s not what they did at the beginning of last year. The problem wasn’t Thornton in the ninth, it was how he was used in the ninth… well that and Juan Pierre in left.
Ventura doesn't want closer by committee
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Didn't necessarily say I thought it would happen...
but I think it’s the best plan for a team that doesn’t really have a defacto closer. I don’t see Crain or Thornton being able to hold that role themselves and I don’t think Reed is ready.
No one thought santos was ready either
Crain or reed would be fine. Its not like we are going to contend, especially if there is a fire sale. Ventura wants a single closer whether that be good, bad or indifferent.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Fair point, though I'd rather not rush Reed.
I would love to see KW take a page out of Billy Bean’s playbook and play the “sell-high” game with his closer every offseason, at least until they are ready to compete again.
Santos being gone means Reed is in pen this year.
As ugod and larry said, probably crain as closer
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Oh he's definitely in the pen.
I meant I don’t want to rush him into the closers role.
1/20/11
Although Guillen couldn’t provide any clarity on Sale’s immediate future, he did admit that breaking camp with a “closer by committee” is not a routine he wants to follow.
“That’s a good thing for the pitcher, knowing what [his] position is going to be,” Guillen said. "I think that’s one thing we’re looking for and I hope we do.
4/10/11
Guillen originally tapped Matt Thornton as the club’s full-time closer during spring training. But after two blown saves in three appearances, Guillen is now saying he’ll give the ninth-inning duties to whichever pitcher is best suited to the situation.
“I’ve got three or four guys who can close,” Guillen said. “I got [Jesse] Crain, [Chris] Sale, [Sergio] Santos and Thornton that can close the end of the game. Don’t be surprised if you see one of those guys. We’ll do that because someone needs the rest or we like the matchup better. There’s a lot of things going through our minds about who’s going to be pitching the ninth.”.
link.
things change quickly.
I don't want to argue with you but when I think committee I am kind of thinking more than two pitchers
Sale’s first save was recorded on 4/9/11, the day before that comment and he didn’t get his second until May 31st, then his 3rd was August 5th. So six of his eight saves essentially came four months after the 4/10/11 statement. It wasn’t until Santos started to struggle when Sale became a regular option.
Only one of Thornton’s three saves may have been due to matchups. One of them he saved the game for Santos and the other came when Santos had saved three games in a row and probably needed some rest.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
It seems to me things change slowly
and Crain’s only save came the day after Santos blew the lead against the A’s on June 10th, giving up 4 runs in the top of the 9th. So obviously Ozzie had his panties in a bunch as we was wont to do.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Doesn't really matter to me.
Just role with whatever works. From the looks of things, if the rebuilding goes far enough, there’s not going to be a big difference in a few blown leads. It would be nice to amp up another guys value though and flip him for more talent next offseason.
You might be right
but I thought that Thornton got hit when he was used like that too, right? I can’t remember but I remember a stretch where he was garbage.
Unless you are convinced there is something magical about the ninth innings, there is no difference.
He was very good last year after the first month or so. Nothing but some bad luck with BABIP and strand rate.
USE THE REPLY BUTTON.
This is a warning.
by Jim Margalus on Dec 6, 2011 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
Me?
Sorry, don’t post here much but enjoy reading the articles. Don’t banish me to the yahoo message boards!!
Ignorance will only get you placed on the Sox coaching staff
"ass hole thi is the same line up whit leftys you idiot"
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