Alexei Ramirez, meet market value
If the El Nuevo Herald in Miami can be trusted, Alexei Ramirez isn't going to be The Cuban Em-Bargain for much longer.
The report says Ramirez and the White Sox have agreed to a four-year, $32.5 million extension, which will take him through the first two years of free agency, by my count. And there's a $10 million club option, as far as we know, but no announcement is imminent.
The White Sox and Ramirez had already agreed to the $2.75M option, and Doug Padilla says that salary is locked, which makes a huge difference. For instance, when Gavin Floyd signed his extension after the 2008 season, it boosted the 2009 salary he already agreed to with the White Sox.
Unlike Floyd's extension, this doesn't strike me as a yee-haw deal, but it works on paper. The best comparison in this case among shortstops in arbitration, Stephen Drew. Like Ramirez, Drew hit arbitration with three full seasons under his belt, and making the comparison even richer, Drew had a contract paying him $1.5 million in each of his pre-arb seasons.
Depending on what WAR you use, they're either exactly valuable, or Ramirez is slightly inferior. I'm inclined to agree with the latter, myself. Their cumulative totals over the last two seasons:
- bWAR: Ramirez 4.9; Drew 4.9
- fWAR: Ramirez 6.0; Drew 7.2
Drew made $3.4M in his first arbitration, then signed a two-year, $15.75M deal with a $10M mutual option for 2013 (and a $1.35M buyout). That option is merely for aesthetics, as well as a vehicle for a buyout, because Scott Boras is his agent, and Boras doesn't give away free agency years.
But just for this exercise, let's combine his first arb year and his option to get the same four years Ramirez agreed to. Add it up, and the total comes to $27.15 million guaranteed. The specific terms of this extension haven't been released, but assuming the final year is in the area of $9.5 million (I imagine the club option gives him a little bit of a raise), Ramirez will be in line to make about $26 million over that same period.
And that fifth-year club option looms large, too.
Ramirez was eminently projectable last season, at least with Bill James' system. According to The Bill James Handbook 2011, Ramirez's projection was his sixth-most accurate one. So it's worth noting that James has him down for .280/.325/.426 next season, and that's about where I'd put him.
There is the theory of unlocked potential, though. Ramirez's bat doesn't thaw until the 41st game of the season, so he ends up punting the first quarter before rallying over the final three. Here's what he's done over the last 120 games in his three seasons:
- 2010: .296/.330/.463
- 2009: .296/.355/.424
- 2008: .303/.330/.501
There is a certain logic that says if Ramirez could just figure out how to hit in the cold, he could post an OPS in the neighborhood of .800, instead of the .740s. I'd say it's more likely that we're seeing his true talent level, especially since his 2010 season was such a compromise between the first two, suggesting that experience is evening out some of his extremities.
That's not saying he'll never hit in April. However, if he ever did, I imagine the slumps would be arranged differently to keep him at his current production. I think a lot of people might welcome that -- imagine if he hit .280/.320/.430 April through September instead of having to scramble in late May.
Still, we shouldn't eliminate the possibility of Ramirez finding a new level of offensive performance, and if the contract terms hold, the Sox seem to be in position to benefit from it. If he hikes that OPS to .800, give or take 10 points, the Sox will have indeed stolen a year. I wouldn't count on that, myself -- to pull a number out of my butt, I'd say there's a 25 percent chance of Ramirez finding that extra reserve of production.
So, I'd call this contract fair, with an overtone of fun. Ramirez is often a blast to watch, and he's not going anywhere. That's good.
I wouldn't draw too many parallels to the Mark Teahen extension, because Ramirez has proven that he can provide excellent defense at a premier position, and isn't fazed by the heat of a pennant race. Teahen ... well, I still don't know what the Sox were thinking on that one.
But hey, for every Mike MacDougal, there's a Matt Thornton, and the latter more than absorbed the damage done by the former. When you add in Thornton's options, his early extension resulted in a five-year, $8 million contract. Even Knox can't argue with that one.

New York Sweaty
Freddy Garcia accepted a minor league contract from the New York Yankees. He'll join Brian Anderson, Bartolo Colon, Andrew Sisco, Andruw Jones, Damaso Marte, Boone Logan, Nick Swisher, Neal Cotts and Gustavo Molina as White Sox cast-offs vying for a job at Legends Field in Tampa in a couple weeks.
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Numbers be damned/contract value according to WAR be damned.
Some of Alexei’s defensive plays last year made me marvel at how inadequate other teams seemed at the 6/4 position. This contract is gonna be a great bargain when all is said and done.
busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010
by South Side Expat on Feb 1, 2011 2:23 AM CST reply actions
Also, way to go you Fat Fuck Freddy.
Like you didn’t have enough money? You could have ended your career in Chicago as a complete game legend. Now you go out with a minor league whimper.
busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010
by South Side Expat on Feb 1, 2011 2:26 AM CST up reply actions
Oooohhh....someone's gonna come try and cut you..
Even though I agree with you.
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 1, 2011 6:46 AM CST up reply actions
he will be in their rotation
he wouldn’t play here. I would go for the ring, too.
by larry on Feb 1, 2011 6:52 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
similar thoughts
quicker route to the majors + contending team, i don’t fault him for that, and he was appreciative to the sox for giving him a chance last year.
and finally, sox fans should still be thanking freddy for gavin floyd.
"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 1, 2011 7:00 AM CST up reply actions
Cause what, The Sox are chopped liver with no chance this season?
Freddy would immediately start this year instead of Peavy. After that, he could be a well used long relief.
busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010
by South Side Expat on Feb 1, 2011 7:40 AM CST up reply actions
big game freddy doesn't long relief
"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 1, 2011 7:46 AM CST up reply actions
doesn't do long relief
"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 1, 2011 7:46 AM CST up reply actions
He'll be in his three-story trailer.
It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.
i still see no reason to assume peavy won't be ready opening day, or shortly thereafter. i'm sure freddy doesn't, either.
and why would he sign to pitch in long relief. that makes no sense. do you usually go for jobs that don’t give you the opportunity you want.
better to compete against mitre, nova, and possibly colon for the last spot
than peavy and sale
"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 1, 2011 7:53 AM CST up reply actions
I think if the Sox have a Freddy on Opening Day, they use him.
With the dropoff he did at the end of last year, I would think he’d be quite content to begin the season in a starting spot, and then hit the long relief role. Guess not.
busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010
by South Side Expat on Feb 1, 2011 7:54 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, it's not like the new Yankee Stadium
Is exactly pitcher friendly. Even though The Cell is pitcher death as well, one more year plus short porch in every field makes Freddy the Venezuelan version of AJ Burnett.
El Scorcho. Rock N Roll!
Peavy's not starting until July
There’s no way Peavy starts until July. He’s going to miss the first 75 games so insurance picks up 75% of his contract. That’s how the Sox are spending 123 million on payroll this year. Because 12 million is being paid by Peavy’s insurance.
Yeah, cause what you do when you spend so much on all the other players
is keep the guy who should be your ace on the bench for half the season.
busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010
by South Side Expat on Feb 1, 2011 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
And Jerry just "decided" to go for it?
Do you believe the “all in” hype? That Jerry just “decided” that its ok to blow out the budget? When in his history has he ever decided to do something as radical as that?
when in history has he been as old as he is now?
as sse points out, that would be idiotic. it would be counterintuitive to the reason they are spending all that money – to win.
Have you been paying ANY attention to this offseason?
busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010
by South Side Expat on Feb 1, 2011 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
so he's already throwing off the mound in january
but the insurance company will believe that he’s not ready to play until july. yeah. makes perfect sense.
by larry on Feb 1, 2011 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
the insurance company will believe what the white sox tell them.
it is a simple case of keeping him seated until the clause kicks in.
the only WOTS is that it's maybe MAYBE
he has to sit until May. there’s no clear word on it. also Peavy sitting = wins lost. so…yeah.
Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!
he won't be in their rotation
and he would have a better shot at a ring with the sox than the yankees this year.
If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly
Seen any projections that favor the White Sox over the Yankees to make the postseason?
I just looked at BP and it has them almost dead even, which is interesting.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
I thought this was it, but maybe I'm mistaken
Looking closer I’m not entirely sure what this is supposed to be projecting. It was generated a couple weeks ago and says “the rest of the season” but it’s not really clear.
Anyway, while the Yankees had an underwhelming offseason, they were still seven wins better than the Sox last year. I would be surprised if anyone is projecting them to be worse than the Sox this year (but by all means let me know if that’s the case).
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
hmmm thanks. You might be right.
I don’t think anyone is projecting the Yanks to be worse than the White Sox. If this is accurate they in essence predict everyone to beat up on everyone.
Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?
I'm projecting the yanks to be worse than the sox. red and white.
www.mickcallsemlikeheseesem.com
If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly
I would read that site.
I enjoy your crusty disdain for everything.
"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."
FWIW, Freddy came back to Chicago on a minor league contract
So he’s already proven he’s not better than one.
THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO
by Jim Margalus on Feb 1, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
Still cant say I like it
Maybe I am missing something but the way I am reading this the sox have Ramirez now locked up for 4 years guaranteed as oppose to 3 years going year to year with all the power. I just cant like that type of a deal, makes no sense for a big market team to do that.
2 outcomes, Ramirez learns to walk and hit in the cold becoming an all star player, Ramirez continues poor plate discipline and occassional brain cramps keeping him at his current level of production….. I have to believe the second outcome is much much much more likely so I dont see the reason for this extention. Shouldnt this money be going to lock up danks????
because
big market teams dont lose guys to free agency the way small market teams do, small market teams like the drays may take the risk of guarnateeing money to lock up a longoria into his free agent years because if he hit free agency they would have no chance to sign him, the whitesox have proven time and again they re-up with basically all their big time talent
This seems overly pessimistic.
Even though his bat may be topped out, or at least predictable (meaning we are not able to dream big) his defense is improving nicely. I like having our middle infield secured with good, solid players for 3-4 years. This is good management.
"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."
by winningugly on Feb 1, 2011 8:20 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
i may be a little pessimistic on this but
ramirez was already locked up for 3 years if we wanted him to be, why guarantee the money when you dont have too?
cost certainty
how about payroll management, arbitration brutally favors the ballclub not the ballplayer, we just took a guy making less then what he is worth, and guaranteed him what he is worth if he keeps producing at a high level, those scenarios can go bad pretty easily
the contract is designed knowing that.
the question of 60% of what is the point.
Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!
yeah throwing out a win percentages is meaningless and
totally ignores the % raises of arbitration in general. As I said brutally favors based on what?
Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?
well, if you believe that $8 million per is what alexei is worth, i guess there's no point in debating with you.
8 million, however, is approximately 1.5 wins. as pointed out by jim, he’s been worth a lot more than that. i see no basis is expect ramirez to not be worth the contract.
i think one thing you are missing
is some kind of verification of your assertion that alexei is "a guy who is prone to slumps and lacksadasical play ". (quoted from your comment in the last thread)
that’s not my perception. also, unless the sox were to offer danks a very player friendly deal it seems that he’s not too interested in being locked up.
"when the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." ~~cantona
Maybe I am missing something but the way I am reading this the sox have Danks now locked up for 4 years guaranteed as oppose to 3 years going year to year with all the power. I just cant like that type of a deal, makes no sense for a big market team to do
just so we get that post out of the way when the white sox sign danks to a long-term deal.
danks vs ramirez
no comparison here, danks in my view is a much more valuable player
if i had to lock up someone long term between the two of them its a no brainer for me to take on danks
A pitcher with a long term contract vs a position player
is not even close in regards to risk.
Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?
Calm down, son.
You just locked up the best all-around short-stop in the league (and probably the 2nd best overall in all of baseball) for below market value. This is a good thing. Just because you’ve signed him doesn’t mean you can’t lock up Danks at some point over the next two years. Buerhle and Jackson all come off the books this year, as will AJ at the end of 2012. Really now, Kenny isn’t stupid.
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 1, 2011 9:13 AM CST up reply actions
so was it hanley or troy that you forgot about?
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
no he forgot jeter :)
"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 1, 2011 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
I said 'all around'
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 1, 2011 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
Fial.
I said ‘all around’ which meant Tulo, Hanley is a wizard with the bat but isn’t as good defensively as Alexei.
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 1, 2011 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
Hanley is more valuable "all-around" as measured by WAR.
And I love Che, remember. But let’s be serious.
"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."
this
alexei is better with the glove, but hanley is so much better with the bat that it doesn’t matter.
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
Alright, alright, alright. Totally *not* my point.
You locked up one of the three best SS in all of baseball to a club-friendly long term deal. He’s certainly the best in your league. I was trying to say this is a (very) good deal. Sheesh.
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 1, 2011 9:35 AM CST up reply actions
he's an arguable top-fiver
it is a good deal, but hyperbole doesn’t help make points very well.
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
I don't think calling him the best in the AL is hyperbolous.
But fine.
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 1, 2011 9:46 AM CST up reply actions
I don't have a problem calling him the best in the AL
Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?
the hyperbole was second best all-around SS in baseball
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
would you say
it was hyperbole and a half?
who is the gentleman in the red cap making a duck/gangsta face? -OzzieMontana
love that site
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
I might, in order to promote proper discourse,
eliminate the perjorative “son”, especially when you are barely old enough to make one. KF30 is not saying anything inflammatory, so no need to talk down.
"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."
It was meant lightly.
The internet leaves no room for inflection and/or tone.
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 1, 2011 9:34 AM CST up reply actions
We are
when we have a reasonable expectation of how the other person will react. Especially when we are still merging fanbases.
But that’s just me. Mr. Friendly.
"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."
So, a giraffe walks into a bar and says
high balls are on me!
Uh oh, am I banned?
"It's just another game...nothing different than what we've prepared for all year."- Brian Urlacher on meeting up with the Packers in the NFC Championship
by tailgater on Feb 1, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
craigws is actually a giraffe. I don't think he'll find this funny
(sorry craigws, you were the first person that came to mind)
Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 1, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
Or should I say good business practice?
Your theory is large market teams should always gamble on paying more money for arb players because they can? What kind of payroll philosophy is that? Then the Sox should have never locked up Floyd. Forget Danks. Red Sox with Lester? Just looney.
Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?
arbitration is locked up
not sure how to explain it, you can offer arb and retain a players rights for 6 years, thats just how it works…. not sure what the confusion is
To me locked up is not "rights"
Its knowing what your bottom line dollar is for a given years.
Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?
I'm gonna take a guess that he meant "under team control" rather than "locked up".
"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."
i can't figure out a way the Sox would have paid less than $10 in his last arb season
and $7-8 next season unless arbiters have no concept of Alexei’s value. but there’s no way Rick Hahn thinks this is a good move if that was the case. if Alexei is worth 9 wins over those 4 seasons, they’re paying $3.6 per win. if he’s only worth 7, that’s still $4.5 per. given any inflation at all in salaries over these next few seasons, that’s still below market.
Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!
not worthy of a fanshot
jerry krause wins baseball scout of the year
"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 1, 2011 8:07 AM CST reply actions
Freddy & Alexi
Good luck to Freddy. He may stick with the Yanks for opening day and stay around for most of the season. The Yankee pitching is still hurting!!
Congrats to Alexi!! Just learn how to walk once in a while during April.
Gentlemen
We are gonna agree to disagree, lots of valid points raised today and yesterday so I am a little more optimistic about this deal. However, I am pretty set in my ways that an organization with the sox payroll should always error on the side of caution and go year to year with players whenever possible guaranteeing 32.5 million when in the long run if everything works out it may save you a few million vs simply just re-signing him when he is about to be a free agent. The sox have shown a very strong ability to resign their own, and I believe their relationship with Alexie and his agent Jamie Torres would have allowed an extention to take place 2 years from now with relative ease.
I get that cost certainty is big for a team and that our middle infield is now locked up for years to come, I just wish they would have given it atleast one more year, if not two before getting serious with alexei.
Turn your question around.
Lets say Alexei has 2 similar years over the next 2.
A) What would it cost in arb numbers?
B) After 2 years what would it really cost to sign him from a true FA?
What final number is acceptable to you in regards to extra payment from your model?
5 million? 10? 15 million? At what point would you rather take the risk the other way?
Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?
This deal is fine in a vacuum
A little concerned about the amount of money tied up in the next few years, though. The Sox have already spent a ton of 2012’s money and will have a number of second- and third-year arbitration players as well as big holes in the rotation, outfield, and bullpen. Further attrition in 2013. Wait and see how they handle it.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Rob Neyer to join SB Nation, per Darren Rovell:
http://twitter.com/#!/darrenrovell/status/32453269750030336
SB Nation is news to me, don’t know if that part broke earlier.
One of the original Internet columnists, Rob Neyer, has confirmed he’s leaving ESPN.com after 15 years for SB Nation.
Hope he’s not writing the 2011 White Sox Anal too. -Sox Machine
the rumor was out there yesterday.
http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/01/31/rob-neyers-leaving-espn/
and we heard about it then, too. neyer is just following jim around now.
by larry on Feb 1, 2011 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
here's his first sbn article
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
part of the negotiations was cleaning up SSS
Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?
by Tdogg on Feb 1, 2011 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
rec'd
"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 1, 2011 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
All Questions Answered Thread
over at Minor League Ball
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
I like this deal.
If there’s no inflation on the free agent market (which, obviously, there will be), he’s being paid for 6.5 wins over 4 years. That’s barely more than 1.5 wins per year. If he’s only worth 2 wins a year (and it’s safe to assume he’ll be worth a lot more), this is a bargain for the White Sox. Five seasons of the best shortstop in the AL for $37.25 million (this year included) is a very good deal, even if he shows some decline.
Cameron's take
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 1, 2011 11:12 AM CST reply actions
"Fair-Dealing" White Sox.
Certainly a new sheriff in town? It can’t be our owners we know and love.
"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."
alexei is a kenWo favorite so its good to see him get paid....
and freddy is going to throw a CG victory vs. the Sox in october. as the sox go on to win the series 3-1.
Kenwo4life=ratings
you and kotsay have something in common
you both refer to yourselves in the third person.
how do you feel about that?
"when the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." ~~cantona
HAHAHAHAHAHA
now Im going to hate the brewers just for fun next year
The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.
South Side Sox Online Baseball Manager team: Houston Honorary World Series Losers
I don't hate Kotsay
I wish him well. He was a terrible player for us who also had bad luck. I wish he wasn’t such a nice guy because than stupid Ozzie wouldn’t have brought him back last year, and I hope he has a renaissance year with the Brewers. Not holding my breath.
I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory...
having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson.
Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 2, 2011 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
thank you for that
I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless in SC
I have my moments. Kotsay brings out the best (or worst) in me.
Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 2, 2011 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
i agree, mark kotsay is a terrible player
http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/amehta75/kotsayd.jpg
"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 2, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs

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