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If Sale's not starting, then Foulke him like it's 1999

As James at White Sox Observer pointed out this weekend, Ozzie Guillen's gradual elimination of Chris Sale's starting chances stayed on course during his appearance on The Score's "White Sox Weekly." While telling Chris Rongey he didn't expect Jake Peavy to be ready for Opening Day, Guillen said that he was considering skipping the fifth starter as often as possible until Peavy returned.

So, you can pretty much guess what Guillen has in mind. At this point, it would take a disastrous set of circumstances before Sale could shake Guillen and Kenny Williams, Harrison Ford-style, until somebody gives him back his career.

For those of us concerned with extracting the most value out of his immensely gifted left arm, we're left to retreat one fort back and hope he doesn't get stuck in the closer role.

Mark Gonzales laid out the five most important spring storylines, and the ninth inning took the second spot:

Sale will get a better chance to secure the closer role if the Sox opt for a four-man rotation early in the season. Sale converted all four save chances and held opponents to a .185 batting average.

Left-hander Matt Thornton would like to close, but he became an American League All-Star based largely on his seventh and eighth-inning dominance. Jesse Crain was part of a Twins bullpen that unified nicely after Joe Nathan suffered a season-ending elbow injury in spring training.

"Our strength is that we have good guys who can handle any situation at any time," pitching coach Don Cooper said.

Spring training will be the perfect time to validate those claims.

I've spent many, many words talking about the absurd amount of attention closers receive, compared to the difference they actually make. The arguments I've made can be used both for 1) not paying a proven closer, and 2) keeping the best reliever out of the role.

A quick summary of previous arguments:

  1. Every closer is made, not born.
  2. Most games are won before the ninth inning.
  3. The Twins were just as good in the ninth inning with Jon Rauch as they were with Joe Nathan.
  4. In 2010, Matt Thornton went 8-for-8 in save situations where he was actually expected to finish the game.
  5. The 2005 White Sox won the World Series with their third closer of the season.

But here's another fun one to talk about.

Star-divide

Trivia question: According to WAR, in which year was Keith Foulke the most valuable?

It wasn't when he racked up 42 saves for the White Sox in 2001 (3.7 bWAR). It wasn't when he led the league by closing out 43 games for Oakland in 2003 (3.7 bWAR). Nor was it the following year, when he ended up flipping the ball to Doug Mientkiewicz to reverse Boston's curse in 2004 (3.4).

No, the most valuable season came in 1999, when he contributed 4.1 bWAR and finished 10th in the Cy Young voting.

He saved nine games.

The 1999 season is an easy one to forget, because the Sox only won 75 games. The starters had a cumulative ERA of 5.25, and Mike Sirotka was the only one with an ERA below 5.00. Given the short starts, Foulke was pressed into a lot of extended relief outings, and this is what he gave the Sox:

Year W L ERA G SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP WP ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB
1999 3 3 2.22 67 9 105.1 72 28 26 11 21 4 123 3 1 222 0.883 6.2 0.9 1.8 10.5 5.86

 

Look at the scant number of hits (in case you're wondering: .188/.235/.320 against)! Look at that WHIP! Look at the strikeout-to-walk ratio! And look at how he finished the season, even with that workload! And Foulke stranded 20 of 23 runners. He was great in just about every situation.

By standards of stuff and results, Foulke should have been the closer. But imagine if Jerry Manuel saved him for the ninth. That would mean that Bob Howry, Bill Simas, Bryan Ward and Carlos Castillo would have to pick up Foulke's innings. All those pitchers had WHIPs at least half a baserunner higher than Foulke's, and that can make a big difference over a bunch of small sample sizes.

This is an extreme example, given the disparity between Foulke's value and the help provided by the rest of the pitching staff. Matt Thornton may turn out to be better than Sale over a full season, and Jesse Crain is no slouch, either. And if the rotation can get games into the seventh and eighth innings on a regular basis, no one reliever will need to carry that burden.

However, Manuel's unusually aggressive usage of Foulke does illustrate the value of advancing a game with zeroes, even if they come in the sixth, seventh and eighth innings instead of the ninth (1999 was also Foulke's best year according to WPA/LI). Foulke did an amazing job of allowing the Sox to win games, and he would have been far less useful if reserved for traditional save situations.

And if Sale's as good as Guillen thinks he is, then the 1999 version of Foulke could prove to be an apt comparison. The Sox should save Sale and Matt Thornton for a game's breaking point, and often times, it doesn't result in a save.

Postscript: If Guillen decides he needs a closer (sigh), Foulke isn't a bad guy to point to, either. He had 12 career saves before Manuel pressed him into full-time duty in May of the 2000 season. He succeeded in 34 of 38 true save situations on the year. In fact, in the Sox's five playoff appearances in the closer era, 2008 was the only time they had their preseason pick for proven closer earning saves at the end of the year. Looking at it that way, maybe it's great that the ninth inning is up in the air.

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i cant make up my mind on the closer issue.

on one hand i agree that its stupid to save your best reliever when the game could be on the line in the 7th or 8th inning. on the other hand there have been a lot of guys that it seems can’t get the job done in the 9th even though they do ok in the 7th or 8th.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 4:25 AM CST reply actions  

I think part of this is that 9th inning losses are much more memorable than 7th inning losses

9th inning collapses are the last major event of a game and psychology has shown that people remember the beginning and ending of an event better than the middle.

Also since teams have traditionally used their most hyped reliever as closer, people have higher expectations for them so their are more disappointed when they fail.

by joewho112 on Feb 14, 2011 9:15 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Another factor is that the blame for loss stemming from a 7th inning collapse gets spread around while in a 9th inning collapse, all the blame falls on the pitcher

Imagine that a team is up 4-3 in the 7th. A reliever comes in and gives up 2 runs. You blame for the reliever for giving up the lead, but you also end of blaming the hitters for not rally back to win. You spread the blame to the guy who failed to bunt the runner on second over with no outs in the 9th, you blame the manager for telling the hitter to bunt when everyone know he is a terrible bunter, you blame your overpaid slugger for not being clutch, etc.

When the same reliever blows a 9th inning 4-3 lead, you only blame him.

In the first scenario the reliever is a contributor to failure. In the second, he is the cause. As a result you forget the first scenario but remembering the second. You end up evaluating his set up work by his overall performance and his closing work by the memorable collapses.

by joewho112 on Feb 14, 2011 10:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Which is why, after all losses,

the manager and players should all come out on the field, and have a Q & A with the fans, like when you see a play, and walk us through their thought process during the game.

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 14, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

here's the thing about best reliever

Sale’s numbers were great, and we see what kind of arm he has, but there’s only a couple months of big league experience. I’d argue that Thornton is the Sox’ best reliever, get him in there with the game on the line in 7th or 8th. Let Sale close.

by son_of_sophist on Feb 14, 2011 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Not sure if I understand your point

It seems Jim, your are saying a closer is not that important? I am not sure, I think you have valid points, but not having a closer can have disastrous results. A bad closer may not have a “statistical” impact in 1 season. I mean, a season is 162 games, and the difference between a decent closer and a bad closer may be merely 10 saves. However, measuring a closer effectiveness with the number of saved games can be very misleading (Francisco Rodriguez is a good example). I believe having a bad closer (or lacking one) may cost you 10 or 15 games per season, which can be well more than enough to end up in 2nd place or 3rd in the standings. Last year, the homer Thome hit against us to finish the game against Thornton was heartbreaking. Having a bad closer can create many of those “heart-breaking” moments which lead to low morale in the team. I believe pitching in the ninth is in part being a good pitcher, but in another part, it’s about having the balls to finish a game. To seal a victory. A big psychological factor that some good pitchers simply don’t have. However, I think I agree with you in something. I will never think it’s a good idea to spend fortunes in closers. I think usually that’s money bad spent.

Guess what....I am elliptical!!!

by JofpGallagher on Feb 14, 2011 6:40 AM CST reply actions  

Where are you getting 10-15 games from?

The best closer in baseball last year was only worth about a three-game swing, and most closers were worth less than two. The hearbreak factor is real, but teams that base decisions on psychology and morale at the expense of winning aren’t as successful in the long run. That’s like never going for it on 4th and short even when it’s highly beneficial to do so. This is the only time I’ll use a football comparison, I promise.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Feb 14, 2011 8:49 AM CST up reply actions  

I used 10-15 games because

actually I have nothing to back that up. All I did was to “throw out” a number based on the total blown-saves leader in last year (Baltimore with 27), and I considered that not all those blown saves end up costing a game (that probably was won in later innings or extra innings), and not all those blown saves were responsibility of the closer. So maybe having a bad closer(s) may cost you 10 to 15 games. Don’t worry comparing with Football. I don’t understand football at all.

Guess what....I am elliptical!!!

by JofpGallagher on Feb 14, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions  

The situation you're citing is essentially the Twins losing Joe Nathan

It made no measurable difference. Maybe a game or two.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Feb 14, 2011 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes...good point but

The Twins didn’t have a “shaky” reliever replacements. They just didn’t have Nathan. But Rauch, Fuentes, and Caps were good…Add those salaries, and it’s about Nathan. If the Twins didn’t get Caps and Fuentes, they would have probably lost the division as rauch was very shaky at the end of the season.

Guess what....I am elliptical!!!

by JofpGallagher on Feb 14, 2011 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

You're still giving the closer,

and relievers in general, far too much credit.

The Sox finished 6 games back. Pretty much impossible for Capps and Fuentes (36.2 IP combined) to be worth 6 wins over whoever else would have gotten those innings.

by CatBrains on Feb 14, 2011 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point....

However, 36.2 IP is still a lot for a reliever/closer. Considering a closer pitches in 60 – 70 innings average per season. 36.2 is almost half of it. I know it does sound “little”, but it’s a lot for relievers. I agree with you and Jim here. I will never overpay for a closer. I believe a closer’s impact in make a team winner is really small. However, I believe the impact a poor closer can have in a team is noticeable. In few words: A good closer does not assure play-off presence, and bad closer will derail play-off aspirations.

Guess what....I am elliptical!!!

by JofpGallagher on Feb 14, 2011 4:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Good piece, Jim.

And such an edgy title! Actually, I’m not worried about his not starting right out of the gate this year. If he is our best “swing” option, so be it. Have faith in Coop to determine if he can fit where Ozzie wants him.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 6:45 AM CST reply actions  

I didn't realize most of this until your post

So thanks for the knowledge. Unfortunately, I think we all know that guillen won’t use Sale or Thornton as a swing type out of the bullpen. Since they are both lefties, barring injury, I would suspect one will fill the role as closer. With a healthy bullpen, Ozzie has shown that he likes to have specific roles for his bullpen, less the LOOGY he can’t seem to figure out. Not too much rotation with the pen, too bad he couldn’t figure that put with the DH position last year.

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 14, 2011 7:29 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

Here's hoping Sale is our closer!!

For a winning team, the closer is the most important guy in the pen. Would the Sox have won it all in 2005 if Bobby Jenks never appeared on the scene? I think not. Would anyone like to refute that?? Chris Sale is the perfect closer for 2011. He throws it about 100 mph from the left side and doesn’t worry about who he is facing. He also leaves it on the field and doesn’t allow yesterday’s outing affect today’s. How about 40 saves and the ROY Award, assuming he’s still a rookie. If not, I’ll still take the 40 saves and an AL Central title.

by soxfan50 on Feb 14, 2011 8:02 AM CST reply actions  

jenks had six saves in the regular season in 2005. they won the division by six games. i'm thinking luis vizcaino could have handled saving at least one of those games.

the white sox didn’t even need a closer in the ALCS. bobby was very good. maybe would have made it more difficult. but i’m pretty comfortable that the white sox would have won it all without him.

by larry on Feb 14, 2011 8:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Game 4, 1-0, on the road, 9th inning.

Who else did you want there that we had at the time? (Yeah, he coughed up a lead in Game #2, but he wasn’t hit hard, IIRC.) He was the lock for us.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Your face is poised for an epic comeback.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Of ocurse not.

But you never know. Who can predict what would’ve happened had Bobby not stanched the bleeding of the failed closers that preceeded him? And you and I know the “save” is not the context we are really discussing.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

of course we'll never know.

“i’m pretty comfortable that the white sox would have won it all without him.”

by larry on Feb 14, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions  

I can read, cowboy.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you need to read jim's piece again

While a closer sometimes has the most important role in the bullpen, situations in the 7th, 8th innings are sometimes more critical. The entire bullpen in 2005 had great and some had career years. Without them performing the way they did, Jenks wouldn’t have had the opportunity to perform in the spotlight like he did.

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 14, 2011 8:13 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

/me pours a little from the 40 for Dustin Hermanson's back.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Feb 14, 2011 7:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Pedro had a 1.39 FIP in 1999

And an 8.46 K/BB ratio. They didn’t even come remotely close to Pedro.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Feb 15, 2011 8:33 AM CST up reply actions  

No he wasn't

If you mean ERA fine. But down the stretch, Sept-Oct Jenks was the most valuable reliever for the 05 team.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 9:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Actually you can add August in there also

Jenks was pretty much the most valuable reliever once he got regular time.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 9:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Who was more valuable than Jenks "down the stretch" in your opinion?

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Was going more off memory than stats

After looking it up, yes it seems Jenks was the best.

by CatBrains on Feb 14, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd rather the start the season in the bullpen, but not necessarily as the closer.

I’d rather he get a little better understanding of the major league game and hitters before being moved into a starting role. He’s still only 22.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 14, 2011 8:51 AM CST reply actions  

I'm actually not as concerned about this with Ozzie

He’s at least better about understanding that having better relievers pitch in high leverage situations is the name of the game than most managers. He might not realize ’why" he does it but who cares? In the past I have applauded him for understanding that tie ball games or even games you trail by a run could warrant your “closer” getting some action.

I can live with the goofy 3 run saves as long as he’s not rolling Pena out in a tie ball game in the 8th.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 8:58 AM CST reply actions  

I think Sale will be a great closer.

Which of course is the problem.

Sale can be a dominant starter for 2012 and beyond.

Remember we were born between the A-Hole & the P-Hole so we got's to keep it funky! -Bootsy Collins

by e-gus on Feb 14, 2011 9:21 AM CST reply actions  

that was kind of my point.

der

Remember we were born between the A-Hole & the P-Hole so we got's to keep it funky! -Bootsy Collins

by e-gus on Feb 14, 2011 9:37 AM CST up reply actions  

If I had my druthers...

Santos would be the “closer.” Sale would open the year as a starter, and be sent to the minors to continue starting when Peavy comes back. But if Sale has to be in the bullpen, I wouldn’t want him closing so he can be brought into the game for tough lefties when Thornton is not available.

by SteveKerr on Feb 14, 2011 9:45 AM CST reply actions  

i like the cut of your gib

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Feb 14, 2011 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

We know Coop doesn't want him to have that chronology re: Peavy/minors.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 10:08 AM CST up reply actions  

my thoughts exactly

does that make us dumb pack animals?

Remember we were born between the A-Hole & the P-Hole so we got's to keep it funky! -Bootsy Collins

by e-gus on Feb 14, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Is "Korean" your middle name?

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

LOL

Guess what....I am elliptical!!!

by JofpGallagher on Feb 14, 2011 11:22 AM CST up reply actions  

that's "pack animal morons" to you.

"when the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." ~~cantona

by BuehrleMan on Feb 14, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

If you hadn't signed Adam Dunn and Konerko back, maybe I agree with that.

Plenty of guys have gone from the bullpen into starting roles though, so I don’t have a problem with him pitching in relief this year.

He’ll be working with one of the best pitching coaches in baseball on a daily basis and getting plenty of experience in high leverage situations. If we were rebuilding, I’d be all for him starting in the minors, but it doesn’t really seem to make sense with the rest of the moves KW made this off-season. Let him join the rotation in 2012.

by Grinder in Training on Feb 14, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions  

I believe Santos needs more time

in the Majors to see if he can handle closer duties. He has the “stuff”, but it’s too raw. And to me, Santos is too wild to be a closer. He constantly goes 3 and 2 count too often to my taste.

Guess what....I am elliptical!!!

by JofpGallagher on Feb 14, 2011 11:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Just for comparison's sake

Jenks had more 3-2 counts in 3 seasons (though he pitched 17 more innings in one) than Santos did last year.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Feb 14, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

that is each of those 3 seasons, right?

the way you worded it made it seem like 3 seasons against one season of course hes gonna have more types of counts in 3 seasons

"Sportsmanship is just loser talk for losing."

by boyonthedock on Feb 14, 2011 4:16 PM CST up reply actions  

in each of those individual 3 seasons

jenks put himself in more 3-2 counts than santos did last year

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Feb 14, 2011 5:25 PM CST up reply actions  

So you are saying given time,

Santos possibly has legs?

IT IS A MIRACLE!

(Oh. I thought it said “Santo”. Lo siento.)

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

this

he has been my favorite for the job for a while

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 14, 2011 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

If I were pulling the strings (and thank FSM I'm not) the bullpen would be

Santos – closer
Thorton & Crain – high leverage set up
Sales – In the Foulke/multi-inning relief role as described above. The multi-inning outings would probably make transitioning to a starter easier
Ohman – strict LOOGY
Pena – Innings eater

by joewho112 on Feb 14, 2011 11:57 AM CST reply actions  

Seems a little odd to me that most would want Santos as closer and Sales in the Foulke role.

Maybe its not considering his college history and Santos’s inexperience. Personally for this year I prefer it reverse. I’d rather Sale close and Santos get multiple inning work. I still believe there is quite a bit of growth left for Sergio and I love his stuff too assuming he throws strikes for multiple innings. If the total fear is that Sale stays there I can understand but organizations can make that mistake from whatever role they’re in (see Joba).

Plus let’s not forget depending on the “year” a fair amount of high leverage work can come there anyway. Jenks high leverage work was right in line with Thornton’s the past couple years as a percentage. Not like this team has had a habit of blowing folks out.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 12:25 PM CST reply actions  

I suppose if you think Sale

is likely the better pitcher this year than it makes more sense. Santos is a wildcard. He probably has an equal chance of blowing up as he does of some legitimate improvement. Oh hell. I just wish Ozzie would go with the hot hands at the end of games (8-9th) like he did at certain times last year.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

So he should manage "from the gut"

like Jack Welch? Seems a bit subjective to me – which I don’t mind. It’s why he gets paid the big bucks. But it’s hard to defend – people like “roles” and pigeonholing players in them.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Good piece

I’ve kind have always felt that undue weight has been placed on the importance of having a set closer.

by v-piece on Feb 14, 2011 2:03 PM CST reply actions  

if by closer, you mean the highest leverage situation in the game

which more times than not will not be the 9th inning, then it should be thornton. if you mean the ninth inning in a close game with no runners on, then it should be santos

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 14, 2011 3:02 PM CST reply actions  

I agree we don't need a defined closer for the regular season, but...

you can’t ignore the psychological aspect of the game. In 2005, Bobby was our third but also our best closer. Try imagining those playoffs without him at closer. Especially in the playoffs, I think you need a defined closer. Look at every team that won the World Series lately. They all had a dominant closer. Pressure can do strange things to people, you need a closer who knows how to handle it. Nothing deflates a team more than losing a game in the ninth, and as a fan, I NEED the comfort of knowing our guy won’t blow it in the ninth!

by pdfitz12 on Feb 14, 2011 4:21 PM CST reply actions  

Trevor Hoffman was pretty terrible in such situations.

There are no guarantees.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Feb 14, 2011 4:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I think a successful 9th inning guy has to have a certain mental toughness that is unique to that particular inning.

The last few outs of the game may not be the highest leverage outs, but they do carry a certain amount of pressure that is specific to that situation, and I think some pitchers are better equipped to handle that particular pressure than other pitchers are, even if they’re not quite as talented.

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Feb 14, 2011 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

If the pitcher really does have good stuff and

are given enough time, chances are they will be successful. Time is usually the critical factor as these guys are prone to SSS.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 5:09 PM CST up reply actions  

kyle farnsworth

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Feb 14, 2011 7:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Javy Vazquez.

AJ Burnett.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 15, 2011 9:10 AM CST up reply actions  

Burnett's surface stats always tracked pretty closely with his peripheral stats, so I don't think he fits.

Farnsworth too.

Vazquez and Ricky Nolasco are two of the very, very few exceptions. With Vazquez it’s because he’s bad from the stretch, not because he lacks mental toughness.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Feb 15, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Javy lacks BHB.

And Burnett’s “stuff” is fantastic – he’s just inconsistent. I think he’s been given enough time to work it out.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 15, 2011 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

OK, I'll grant you that.

But his “stuff” was always fantastic and he’s always been fairly inconsistent. He is just less brilliant and more horrible than when he was younger.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 15, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

seems like his inconsistency was more in his health than his perfomance

When healthy he basically spent a decade in the 3.3-4 ERA range with lots of strikeouts and significant-but-manageable walks. I never got the sense that his stuff was suggesting something more than what he was from 2001 – 2009.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Feb 15, 2011 5:08 PM CST up reply actions  

That's fair re: health.

I just remember his performance being quite inconsistent. If that was generally related to his injury history your point is a good one.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 15, 2011 5:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I totally agree with this

It might be more important to pitch 2 tough innnings in the 6th and 7th innings, but some people might say that closing is deteriorating mentally.

by dasox313 on Feb 14, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Give me some examples

of good pitchers who were fine elsewhere but failed in the closer role after a legit chance.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I wasn't saying I knew any

I was just saying I can imagine it is very hard mentally to close.

by dasox313 on Feb 14, 2011 5:44 PM CST up reply actions  

fausto carmona.

july 31- August 5. Blew the only 3 save opportunities he got. I know its a small sample obviously but i remember thinking “yah baby i got myself a closer for the fantasy stretch” and then he went out and got killed.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 5:47 PM CST up reply actions  

" I know its a small sample"

I was waiting on this one. Two things. Sample size is exactly the point.
but more importantly Fausto wasn’t good pitcher that year period. Mental toughness had zero to do with it.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

well he must have had something

because the very next season he was 4th in cy young voting.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions  

in that case maybe the mental toughness thing should just be set aside for the time being

barring a way to verify the mental toughness factor it might be best to just say the best pitcher should pitch in the highest leverage situation

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Feb 15, 2011 8:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Since the only way to determine if a guy can do it is trial and error,

obviously it has to be set aside.

I’m simply saying that I think it exists. Like Fangraphs.

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Feb 15, 2011 9:38 AM CST up reply actions  

2006 that was.

also linebrink in 2008. was cruising right along until jenks got hurt and they moved him into the closer roll. i was on a serious tangent about using dotel there from the start. yet ozzie trotted out linebrink a handful of times and he got raped each time. then he used dotel and he did fine.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 5:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Linebrink in 2008

in saves 9.00 era 1IP
in Sv Situ 1.64 era 22IP
in non-Sv 5.55 era 24IP

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

these stats are skewed.

save situations could be the 7th or 8th when he was pitching great. when he was brought in during the 9th though he was awful.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 6:17 PM CST up reply actions  

you're thinking of a hold

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 14, 2011 6:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Not necessarily

Thornton was 8-for-10 in “save situations” last year, but his two blown saves happened before September, when he was working the seventh and eighth. That’s why save situations aren’t a great stat to take at face value, especially when it comes to setup men.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Feb 14, 2011 6:25 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

a save situation is anytime a pitcher enters the game with a 3 run or less lead

in the 7th-9th. So even if he comes in during the 7th with a 1 run lead and gives up a 2 run homer he gets a blown save.

if he pitches a 1-2-3 7th and then gets pulled in the 8th he is given credit for the hold.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 6:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I was under the impression he had to finish the game to get the save

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 14, 2011 6:29 PM CST up reply actions  

you do...

but you don’t have to finish the game for it to be a “save situation”

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 6:31 PM CST up reply actions  

gotcha

thanks both of you

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 14, 2011 6:33 PM CST up reply actions  

True

My point is not that there aren’t any pitchers who have splits, its that the situation is way overblown and frankly doesn’t hold up long term. If a good pitcher is given enough time he almost assuredly will produce numbers in that spot. Mental makeup or not. Linebrink was simply a way different pitcher and already headed down when he signed with the White Sox and had his injury. In his heyday could he have been an “effective closer” I’m guessing yes. But I’m looking at a very high level and not one in which Linebrink pours gasoline on a Cub’s fire rally.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 9:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Linebrink went on the DL with shoulder tendinitis right after that stretch.

I don’t think he was right physically.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Feb 14, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

and this

I was going to point out he wasn’t right anyway.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 6:04 PM CST up reply actions  

What was usually Dotel's role in those kickass Astro bullpens?

If I recall correctly in the beginning it was

Wagner/Dotel/Lidge,

Then they shipped Wagner out and tried to give the 9th to Dotel and it became:
Dotel/Lidge/Qualls

then when that failed it turned into:

Lidge/Qualls/Wheeler.

So basically Dotel kicked ass in the 8th then coughed it up when Wagner left and they gave him the 9th.

I can’t recall if Dotel had many save opportunities with the A’s or Yankees after he left Houston.

by PeejSox on Feb 14, 2011 6:28 PM CST up reply actions  

he was the pirates closer after he left us

and had 21 saves, of which at least 9 i believe were against the cubs

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 14, 2011 6:32 PM CST up reply actions  

he still nailed down 36 saves that year.

i’m willing to bet thats more than linebrink’s career numbers.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 6:33 PM CST up reply actions  

and i'd be right. linebrink has 7 career saves.

gotta go with the experienced guy in that situation in my opinion.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 6:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I think another aspect of this

is that knowing your role is a preferred thing for a lot of pitchers.

It seems like guys in the bullpen want to know what is expected of them. Of course the whole pen’s jobn is to come in and get some outs, but I think guys are in a better placve mentally when they know ahead of time- ok im the set up guy. or im the closer. etc

The Preamble to the United States Constitution is 52 words. The preamble (emphasis on amble) to Al’s first question was 59 words. That seems about right. -Andy @ disipio

by e-gus on Feb 14, 2011 11:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Definitely agree with this.

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Feb 15, 2011 7:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm sure we could come up with a new set of imaginary titles that mean nothing

If that would help the players’ incredibly fragile psyches.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Feb 15, 2011 8:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Slightly OT but anyone got the new PECOTA projections? The real things are out today.

The ones B&B had last week was an incorrect post that shouldn’t have gotten out.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 14, 2011 4:27 PM CST reply actions  

Season projections are still not out

I posted some individual ones last week.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

press release

BP Unfiltered
Irredeemable Perfectionists: Player Forecast Manager and Depth Charts Delayed

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions  

this isn't accurate

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 5:10 PM CST up reply actions  

No shit.

We’re gonna win 92, not 82! :-)

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Feb 15, 2011 7:49 AM CST up reply actions  

They wrote a story about the final results

but haven’t released them yet.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 14, 2011 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

If you read moneyball, and I don't think that it was in there, I may be wrong

Billy Beane used to have his coaches used an overated player as closer, get him a bunch of saves, and trade him for some prospects. Closers are just relief pitchers that finish games and get glory for pitching an inning at the end of the game.

by dasox313 on Feb 14, 2011 5:27 PM CST reply actions  

So you're saying we got punk'd?!

That Cee Lo song is about Billy Beane

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 14, 2011 5:55 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

have you heard of BMO?

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 14, 2011 5:58 PM CST up reply actions  

If you ask them (and what hold more truth than athlete quotes!)

I think most bullpen guys would definitely make the point that they thrive when they have “defined roles.”

As inefficient as it is by the numbers, having “defined roles” seems to benefit the player’s psyche.

by PeejSox on Feb 14, 2011 6:23 PM CST reply actions  

On the other hand, when Thornton says he'd love to be a closer...

…can’t help but notice it’s his contract year.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Feb 14, 2011 6:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Chicks don't dig the "high leverage".

They dig the save. Chicks can be stupid, too.

He was the last vestige of a time when men named Rube and Mordecai and Smokey Joe and Grover strode as giants upon the land, their won-loss records both gleaming and gory, good and bad entangled.

by winningugly on Feb 14, 2011 6:36 PM CST up reply actions  

This WU Valentines Day sentiment brought to you by

Jewish Divorce Attorneys Ltd! If you’ve gotta lose the bastard, lose him with us!

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Feb 15, 2011 7:51 AM CST up reply actions  

hey jim just noticed that sox machine sponsors the chris sale page!

I think you should switch it up to southsidesox! haha

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 14, 2011 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

haha that is pretty good

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 14, 2011 6:44 PM CST up reply actions  

relievers seemed to manage for the first century or so of baseball without meltdowns over which inning they might pitch in

As Jim correctly noted, they’re worried about their wallets, not their mental health.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Feb 15, 2011 9:01 AM CST up reply actions  

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