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Lastings effects: Milledge signing has minor implications

(Brief announcement: If you haven't entered your projections for position players and pitchers, do it now!)

The year was 2007. We learned what made Maroon 5 wonder, we couldn't get enough of Norbit, and, thanks to the worst team the White Sox assembled in decades, we talked an awful lot about Lastings Milledge.

His name came up during the winter meetings of December 2006, when he was a well-regarded prospect for the New York Mets. Mark Buehrle was entering his contract year, the Sox needed outfielders, and the Mets needed pitching, and thus a rumor was born.

Two days later, said rumor died when Kenny Williams traded Freddy Garcia to Philadelphia for Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez. Milledge's name kept resurfacing as the Sox limped to the trade deadline, but the Mets waited until after the 2007 season to move him to Washington. Omar Minaya was ripped for the return (Ryan Church and Brian Schneider), thinking the Mets made too much of Milledge's character flaws while downplaying his 104 OPS+ at age 22.

Four years later, the White Sox signed Milledge to a minor-league deal with an invitation to Spring Training. It's Milledge's fourth franchise in four years - the Nationals traded him to Pittsburgh, and the Pirates non-tendered him. As you can guess, it's not like a surplus of talent forced Milledge out of both pictures. In Washington, he rubbed management the wrong way by missing team meetings, in between several injuries and the inability to play center field.

He played it straight in Pittsburgh, but his bat didn't do nearly enough talking. His game stagnated - he never hit enough to hold down a corner, and couldn't cover nearly enough ground as a center fielder. He might have been better off when people knew him more for his rap album and high-fiving the fans.

Two months ago, Milledge provided fuel for a fight in a Venezuelan Winter League game by miming a grenade lob after a double. He was hit by a pitch in retribution, and he took revenge by stealing second. Words were exchanged, and a shoving match followed.

All of that is to say that I wouldn't count on Milledge capitalizing on some unrealized potential. But this signing is a good depth move that will force others to maintain or raise their games.

Star-divide

The addition of Milledge puts the following players on alert...

Alejandro De Aza: If talent were the only issue, De Aza would be a lock. He can play all three outfield positions, he can hit enough, and he can steal a base. His left-handedness provides a complement at two outfield positions. In short, he meets all requirements for a fourth outfielder. He's also out of options, whereas Milledge can be sent to Charlotte, so all things being equal, De Aza shouldn't go anywhere.

The problem is that he can't stay healthy, and Milledge has shown the ability to hit at Triple-A. The combination could lead to Milledge leap-frogging De Aza, much like Dewayne Wise seized the day when Jerry Owens injured his foot back in 2008.

Brent Lillibridge: Lillibridge is also out of options, and while we haven't seen much of it, he can play a better center field. At the same time, he's running out of chances to prove that he can make contact on a reliable basis. He finished the year by striking out in nine of his final 10 at-bats, and he has a history of flat spring showings. If Milledge handily wins a head-to-head battle at Camelback Ranch, Williams may have to make like Switzerland and blow up his Bridge.

Stefan Gartrell: Without Milledge, Gartrell was the first right-handed outfield option waiting in the wings at Triple-A. He didn't deserve that inside track, because he didn't punish International League lefties nearly enough to make up for all the strikeouts, while Milledge hit major-league lefties to the tune of .320/.414/.512. No competition there.

Gartrell has the advantage of a 40-man roster spot, but Millledge should force him to justify his existence. Magic 8 Ball says: "OUTLOOK NOT SO GOOD," much to Phil Rogers' chagrin. Worse yet for Gartrell, he might lose a starting outfield job based on what the Sox decide to do with ...

Dayan Viciedo: With Milledge, Gartrell and Jordan Danks, the Charlotte Knights have bodies in all three outfield spots. That could encourage the Sox to give Viciedo reps at third as Brent Morel insurance, or they could play him more in a corner and shove Gartrell or Milledge to DH.

Milledge won't interfere with Viciedo getting whatever he deserves, but now that there's another passable, short-term, right-handed option in Charlotte, Viciedo has something to measure up against besides his own splits.

Jermaine Dye: For the second straight February, Ken Rosenthal gave Dye a shoulder to cry on. It was easy to pick apart his case last season, and this year is no different. Dye wants a major-league contract 1 1/2 years after he was last a major-league hitter. The last anybody knew, Dye could only hit lefties and offer poor defense. That's Milledge's game, and he's only worth a minor league contract and an NRI. Dye may be a World Series MVP, but he's 12 years older than Milledge, and about a year behind on his self-assessments.

Dye has some right to be frustrated when a guy like Mark Kotsay receives a major-league contract with the Brewers for $800,000 guaranteed. But aside from the inherent advantage of his left-handedness, Kotsay has never said he's too good for the best possible offer. He took cuts in playing time, cuts in salary, bounced from team to team and learned a new position to keep his career afloat. Say what you will about Kotsay, but he's listened to what the game and market have told him. Dye keeps gambling that he deserves better, and baseball keeps telling him that deserve's got nothing to do with it.

Comment 183 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Pity about JD

I always liked the guy, despite the holes in his game. Can’t see any teams offering him anything other than a minor-league deal this season. Should have kicked his agent to the curb for such bad advice (assuming that’s the reason).

El Scorcho. Rock N Roll!

by AirTrafficAJ on Feb 4, 2011 1:07 AM CST reply actions  

He is representing himself this year

But it looks like he’s still shooting too high. Sammy Sosa was able to come back at age 38 after a year off, but he did so with a minor league contract.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Feb 4, 2011 1:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Say what you want about Sosa (and I will)

But at least the guy ate some humble pie to try and give it a go one more time.

El Scorcho. Rock N Roll!

by AirTrafficAJ on Feb 5, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Beyond the Box Score talked a bit about Milledge yesterday.

link here.

but here’s the meat and taters:

Francoeur: Age 27, .346 wOBA vs. LHP, .305 wOBA vs. RHP

Milledge: Age 26, .350 wOBA vs. LHP, .303 wOBA vs. RHP

so that pretty much crushed the little bit of enthusiasm I had about the whole thing.

Would that be jack cheese? ~RWShow

by e-gus on Feb 4, 2011 1:12 AM CST reply actions  

Reason for enthusiasm:

Francouer got a major-league contract, and Milledge didn’t.

Frenchy would be a perfectly cromulent guy to stash away in Triple-A for emergency platoon action, but he manages to dupe every team he plays for as a breakout candidate ready to blossom.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Feb 4, 2011 1:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Re: Dye

I never have understood Dye and his refusal to adjust his expectations for what he can earn/play despite his ‘05 WS MVP. What part of dramatic downhill fall in your 30s does he not get? His last half of a season on the field was HORRIBLE, yet he could have easily made a productive DH for many other teams. Pride fuckin’ with a man, there is no better example.

I’m so very glad the White Sox DIDN’T do anything with him last year, cause I could easily see option C when Kenny went to talk to JR before going All-In- That is the “we’re putting the band back together” option. Uribe was a free agent, Pods could be had again as could Crede. That plan sure had a good chance of filling seats for early season ticket sales, and would probably have kept the team in the black this year for cheap.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Feb 4, 2011 1:41 AM CST reply actions  

This is what I've been saying for over a year.

Look at Dye’s demands when he was looking for work last year.

- Not going to DH (so long, American League)
- Not going to be a 4th outfielder/pinch hitter (so long, National League)
- Not going to take $1.5M from the Cubs
- Not going to play for a “bad team”

Honestly, what does that leave him? Not even the Newark Bears would have taken him.

And Jim is absolutely right that at least Mark Kotsay did what he had to to stay in the game.

"And he rips one into left! Konerko, grand slam!" —Joe Buck, 23 Oct 2005. Yes, I have had the date wrong for this long.

by mikecws91 on Feb 4, 2011 2:26 AM CST up reply actions  

i think it was more than 1.5 mil.

ah yes, here it is. he turned down 3.3 mil!
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/01/report-jermaine-dye-rejected-offer-from-cubs.html

"when the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." ~~cantona

by BuehrleMan on Feb 4, 2011 8:43 AM CST up reply actions  

kudos for saying fu to the cubs

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 4, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

thats a scary proposition

2011 WhiteSox Baseball: we're all in

by OznCoop on Feb 4, 2011 8:50 AM CST up reply actions  

thanks for the bold-and-exclamation, Jim!

also, good stuff on Milledge. hard not to like the move. the only real downside is Brent Lillibridge probably isn’t going to be on the team much longer. seems like a good guy to have as part of your organization.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 1:44 AM CST reply actions  

nice overview of the transaction and the options ozzie has

but deserve’s got nothing to do with it?? i thought you didn’t watch the wire, or that this is an oft-used quote well before..

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 4, 2011 1:55 AM CST reply actions  

Unforgiven.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Feb 4, 2011 1:58 AM CST up reply actions  

My fav western

and an awesome freaking line.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 4, 2011 8:36 AM CST up reply actions  

One thing I'm not seeing anywhere (or maybe I've not just paid attention, so youdaman me at will)

Is any in-depth article about this signing, and how he might fair with the Sox, given out expertise in dealing with folks with some issues.

Given what the Sox apparently went through with Jenks and his “youth” issues and aparently continued to deal with throughout Jenks tenure, what are the odds the Sox can do the same here? Taking a guy who has just been cast out by his former organization because of life issues and how they affected his play, and then coaching him into something decently palatable to the organization and major media and thus helping him live up to expectations?

Really way out there OT point, yet fun to talk about- Will the Sox become the rehab landing spot of MLB players ala the Cincinatti Bengals in the NFL?

Don’t yell at me too much for this, just a 2:30am thought, inspired by the thought of our signing, subsequent embrace, and now resigning of AJ.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Feb 4, 2011 2:38 AM CST reply actions  

the key differences between jenks and milledge

are the white sox’s depth at the position the player is vying for, and the skill set the player has for that position.

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 4, 2011 2:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Its fair

I think all Jim and others are saying is don’t count on it. Do I think the Sox sometimes get more from players like this. Maybe. But there are plenty of failures also. I think the odds are better than say if he was on Kansas City.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 4, 2011 8:38 AM CST up reply actions  

not sure i see how the white sox have any expertise in this.

jenks is one guy. frankly, the white sox seem to suck when dealing with more mundane “maturity”-type issues (swisher, cabrera), or with young players.

by larry on Feb 4, 2011 8:40 AM CST up reply actions  

I think this winter brawl is kind of overblown some

I tend to take a whole season’s worth of behavior in Pittsburgh over a heated moment in winter ball. I could be wrong but I doubt maturity issues hold him back off the team this year.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 4, 2011 8:45 AM CST up reply actions  

maybe it’s overblown. it also continues and reinforces a pattern of behavior on his part. what he did, and has done, is known as “not playing the game the right way.” and ozzie and the veterans do not abide that.

by larry on Feb 4, 2011 9:01 AM CST up reply actions  

agreed. way overblown. i want a player with a little fire in him.

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on Feb 4, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

ummm, aj. cough.

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on Feb 4, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions  

aj hasn't done things like pretend like he's throwing a grenade into a dugout.

that’s the kind of stuff that gets you in trouble on the white sox. and the mets.

by larry on Feb 4, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions  

no put you have guys like buehrle sliding on rain tarps, aj kneeing trainers in the groin

carl everett with his gay remarks. you make it sound like the sox are a bunch of puritans playing baseball

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on Feb 4, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

^ but

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on Feb 4, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

This

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Feb 4, 2011 12:24 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

They also dumped Everett as soon as an upgrade was available,

couldn’t wait to kick out OC, FNS, never forgave BA for his stupidity, made Buerhle stop and when was the last time AJ was actually a problem? It’s seems to be a jerk-free club house nowadays. Jenks was the only recent exception and they even grew tired of that act.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 4, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions  

good point, they probably would have failed milton bradley too

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 4, 2011 8:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Jenks is a pitcher.

We have better luck rehabbing pitchers.

"Yet you skate like you think wearing it is enough."

LET’S GO HAWKS!!!!!

by ballyb on Feb 4, 2011 5:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Out of options...

I hate when this enters the picture as reasoning for not taking the best 25 man roster north, however it comes into play every year. I really dont care too much about lillbridge or de aza though. I find it very hard to believe losing either of guys would really hamstring us in the future.

by Knoxfire30 on Feb 4, 2011 8:54 AM CST reply actions  

25 best

I think it still matters in a division that has twice had a game 163 to determine a division winner. Im not going to get all up in arms over the final one or two spots but when I hear a team talk about out of options as well as well one guy has a guaranteed contract over someone who doesnt and that factors into the makeup of a team, I hate it!

by Knoxfire30 on Feb 4, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions  

and when you end up with gartrell in may

because you decided to go for the minisculely better 25 man roster instead of stashing depth, that might matter in a division that has twice had a game 163 to determine a division winner.

by larry on Feb 4, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions  

acquire someone

how hard is it to make a minor move for a 4th outfielder type if injuries or a lack of depth becomes a problem,

by Knoxfire30 on Feb 4, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

It also sucks that some guys are older than others

and that some guys are actually better hitters, while some are better fielders. It would be great to take 13 .300/.400/.500 guys who are the top fielders at their positions, entering their 28-year-old seasons.

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 4, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

It's a 'can't hurt, could help' move.

If he sucks, then cut him loose. If he’s good, than make a hard decision and lose Lilli or De Aza. Okay, fine. What are we, 14 days away from P&C reporting?

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 4, 2011 9:48 AM CST reply actions  

I agree with that aspect....

But seems to me the Sox have a habit of giving too much playing time to player they find on the scrap heap. I hope this isnt an experiment that lasts all year long. That boy has character issues, and hasn’t prove to be anywhere closed to his expected ceiling. He’s not a bad investment, as long as we dont have complecent.

by XuBrent on Feb 4, 2011 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Alexei on Chicago: "I felt like I was in Cuba."

And that’s a good thing. More from MLBTR

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on Feb 4, 2011 11:39 AM CST reply actions  

Juan Pierre vs Lasting Milledge - which one is better?

While I agree Milledge’s bat is not good enough to hold down an OF corner, what about Pierre? He was the whipping boy in LA due to his low SLG and weak arm but I did not hear too much complaint about him here. Granted he was overpayed in LA and it’s not the same case here but Milledge is even cheaper (if he can truly hit better.) Unfortunately, it’s not a good combination to platoo them since they both hit lefties better.

by ibom on Feb 4, 2011 12:01 PM CST reply actions  

Podsnoir.

The guy who doesn’t have to fight for a major league roster spot.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 4, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

and he isn't a dick.

pierre is a fine example of someone who ‘plays the game the right way’.

by craigws on Feb 4, 2011 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

probably the hope is that juan will mentor him.

you know, like how juan is expected to mentor every other black player in the organization.

by larry on Feb 4, 2011 1:05 PM CST up reply actions  

what about rios

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on Feb 4, 2011 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

He's being mentored.

As is Beckham. They’re taking Black Lessons.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 4, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Rios has style. WTF you talkin' bout?

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 4, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Damn! That is one sexy sand dancer.

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 4, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe that's what happened to him in '09

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Feb 4, 2011 3:17 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Why do all these baseball player guys with money

dress like 1993 drug-dealers?

How much trouble would it be to be seen in public with blue jeans that have an actual oil stain from his car, and a Def Leppard Tour t-shirt?

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 4, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

they should take a tip from darin erstad

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 4, 2011 3:18 PM CST up reply actions  

he can grind in centrefield,

but is equally ready to grind behind the counter at your local subway.

by craigws on Feb 4, 2011 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

A Chrysler.

How embarassing.

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

that's rich

and Ben will brandish a 3rd ring on Sunday

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 4, 2011 8:47 PM CST up reply actions  

fight me on the rr

in advance :-)

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 4, 2011 8:48 PM CST up reply actions  

lol you got it!

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Feb 4, 2011 9:58 PM CST up reply actions  

They should all just wear baseball uniforms when out in public

What the hell, they’re being paid millions and millions – they can wear a White Sox uniform to the movies.

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 4, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Rios isn't black, he's Puerto Rican...

which explains why he wears awful paisley shirts and generally dresses like a drug dealer from 1993.

If you’ve ever been to San Juan, you should understand.

It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT

by rhythm on Feb 4, 2011 7:16 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

I've always liked Milledge's ability and at worst he hits lefties well.

Reaching his upside may not be realistic but he turns 26 in April and presents no financial risk. As for now I like him over the other options to be the fourth outfielder.

by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 4, 2011 12:23 PM CST reply actions  

Over De Aza?

It’s too early for me to say that. I want to see what he does in Charlotte then re-evaluate

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 4, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

It's a tough call

but Milledge is a pretty sure bet to crunch lefties. Maybe De Aza should stay on until he proves he can’t hit and/or stay healthy.

by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 4, 2011 7:41 PM CST up reply actions  

WSB: Lastings in war, first in the American League

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Feb 4, 2011 12:32 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

Isn't this what we want?

A guy who inspires a good 3 dugout-clearing, heck, stands-clearing brawls a season? A player so crazy that the Korean bullpen coach will throw at him when throwing batting practice?

I like it. Sure beats hoping Jordan Danks can learn to hit AA pitching before he’s 40.

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 4, 2011 1:41 PM CST reply actions  

Korean bullpen coach?

Do you mean Lee Man-Soo? He’s been back in Korea since 2007.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Feb 4, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions  

And he was a badass

I got the Korean Babe Ruth’s autograph. Yeah I get autographs as a grown man… So what wanna fight about it?

by notoneyguillen on Feb 4, 2011 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

And yet we wondered why the 2007 season was a disaster...

people, I think we’re through the looking glass.

It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT

by rhythm on Feb 4, 2011 7:18 PM CST up reply actions  

So the choice is this for Ozzie

Your possible 4th outfielder hit 320/414/512 against lefties last year in 145 plate appearances and walked (19) more than he struck out (16). Do you let this guy start 40 games in left when southpaws are on the mound, or do you trot out the guy who ranked 57th out of 62 qualifying outfielders in wOBA last year 160 times? Sadly, I think I know the answer.

by MelidoPerez on Feb 4, 2011 2:32 PM CST reply actions  

He wouldn't want to slap Pierre in the face

Ah-la Scott Linebrink when he didn’t wanna take the set-up role away from him

by notoneyguillen on Feb 4, 2011 2:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Too much veteran respect for Juan

Anytime you have a respected veteran like Juan, the only reasonable thing to do is make sure he gets the 2nd most plate appearances in all of baseball, even if he is the 5th worst hitter at his position in all the land.

by MelidoPerez on Feb 4, 2011 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Pierre had a shit April, which is unusual for him.

Hit and walked well the rest of the way. Veterans get that kind of leeway.

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 4, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions  

that's another thing i like about the guy

given his approach, he’s never going to walk much since nobody’s going to be nibbling against him. but he still does a pretty good job working counts and taking the walks that they’ll give him.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I was happy when they picked him up...

and I can’t complain about his production. No, he’s not Rickey Henderson’s best seasons, or Tim Raines best 5, but it’s not exactly like we’re leading off DeWayne Wise, and pretending we’re doing something special.

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 4, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I still hate Juan Pierre

Slugging .316 is bad. For any position. I also hate that he has to wear a hat under his helmet. And that it looks like he is wearing his dad’s clothes.

by notoneyguillen on Feb 4, 2011 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

it's not great

but the problem is mostly that Ozzie thinks he’s leadoff hitter.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

What manager has not thought he should hit LO?

Torre and who else?

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

beats me

not saying Ozzie is all that different. but he manages the Sox, so he’s our problem there.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 4:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I know.

I’m just saying he has company.

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

exactly, how much should we really nag ozzie on treating leadoff hitter as a position

if it’s still the conventional thought among most mlb managers

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 5, 2011 5:02 AM CST up reply actions  

my mom calls him pinhead

and witch doctor

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 4, 2011 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Your Mom sounds like a treat.

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

im sorry to hear about your mom

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12330309

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 4, 2011 3:55 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Stop hitting on the moms. They're too young for ya and it's getting kinda creepy

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 5, 2011 8:39 AM CST up reply actions  

alex cintron is pinhead.

size 6 hat. mercy.

"when the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." ~~cantona

by BuehrleMan on Feb 4, 2011 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

The surge in HBPs also helped

More than doubled his previous high, one more than Quentin.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Feb 4, 2011 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

there's probably a 20 run difference per 150 games between Pierre and Milledge

in defense/baserunning. if Milledge’s true talent against lefties is more like a .350 wOBA (which could be overstating it), then they’re pretty much an even proposition.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 2:53 PM CST up reply actions  

If Milledge really did play "well"

He’d get a fair amount of starts anyway. I don’t think that’s a concern.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 4, 2011 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

quentin is who is going to be making way the most for the bench outfielder in any event.

the question then becomes, what does ozzie want his outfield to look like on those days.

by larry on Feb 4, 2011 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

yep

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 4, 2011 3:02 PM CST up reply actions  

May not be that high

Juan’s UZR last year was kind of an outlier, as he is 7.7 in LF for his career. Looks like Milledge managed to not make a fool of himself in the 150+ games in LF with a +2.8.

by MelidoPerez on Feb 4, 2011 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

larry doesn't reeducate, he ridicules.

you know, to recruit new members.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Feb 4, 2011 6:56 PM CST up reply actions  

thats how he got me!

and now we are BFF’s. Surprising how things like that happen!

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 4, 2011 6:57 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Just a bit confused Larry

One guy says not to use a single season, but you seem pretty convinced in Pierre’s performance despite the fact it being the only full season he played the position. Not trying to be a smartass, just trying to learn. If Pierre had put up 10+ for a bunch of years, I wouldn’t think anything of his 13.4 this year, but his UZR have kind of been all over the map, so it is hard to take a ton off of one year.

by MelidoPerez on Feb 4, 2011 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

played what position?

the outfield is the outfield. center is only different because you field more balls so there’s a higher standard to compete with b/c teams put their best OF there. Pierre is a fast guy with solid instincts who’s been playing a while. larry isn’t going off of one year of UZR, he’s saying that year is reflective of his talent.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 5:57 PM CST up reply actions  

A full season of left and not center

If you look at the arm factor you can see it didn’t hurt him as much this year as in years past. This makes sense, since runners advancing extra bases hurts your rating. Even with Juan’s rag arm guys don’t go 1st to 3rd on a single to the LF. But they sure do if a guy like Juan is playing center. I guess I have a hard time buying any one year as definitive with a guy like Pierre’s history. This year UZR had him really good, but other years not so much. Crawford is pretty much seen as the standard, and he has been between 10-25 every year but one. I understand there can be weird variations, but I have a hard time buying the +13.4 as the real Juan Pierre when he also has multiple negative seasons on his resume.

by MelidoPerez on Feb 4, 2011 6:29 PM CST up reply actions  

he's fast with good instincts

that’s all we really need to know.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 6:32 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah, screw numbers

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 4, 2011 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Just wish Larry would explain how using the 150 games of Milledge LF UZR/150 is “spectacularly wrong” but him using this season’s 149 games of Pierre in left (his only full season there) is a large sample size. Maybe since Milledge’s weren’t in the same season?

by MelidoPerez on Feb 4, 2011 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

"larry".

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 7:00 PM CST up reply actions  

to speak for him again

“larry isn’t going off of one year of UZR, he’s saying that year is reflective of his talent.”

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 7:14 PM CST up reply actions  

If this years number was reflective of his talent

then most of his years would be similar. Is Konerko’s +158 OPS this year reflective of his talent, or is his career +119?

by MelidoPerez on Feb 5, 2011 2:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Pierre's career UZR is positive at both CF and LF

what are you confused about?

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 5, 2011 2:38 PM CST up reply actions  

larry doesn't need to explain anything to any of us...

we can all just use the fucking search function for his previous pearls of wisdom.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Feb 4, 2011 7:28 PM CST up reply actions  

you have a script you're running for these, right?

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 7:33 PM CST up reply actions  

indeed

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Feb 4, 2011 7:46 PM CST up reply actions  

neither is a good idea. that is why i referred to your post as having so much wrong in it that it was spectacular.

maybe you’re reaching right conclusions. maybe you’re reaching wrong conclusions. but it certainly isn’t because of the data you’re choosing to rely on, or ignore.

by larry on Feb 5, 2011 9:03 AM CST up reply actions  

"larry".

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 6:22 PM CST up reply actions  

smaller

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Feb 4, 2011 6:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Fewer.

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 6:39 PM CST up reply actions  

i think you shouldn't use a single season to evaluate UZR, as you did with milledge

"I never say one bad thing about those stupid fucking Cubs fans. Not a single word about those mother-shitting pieces of fuck"

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Feb 4, 2011 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree. I didn't use a single season.

The 150 games were over his career, since he has been shuffled around so much.

by MelidoPerez on Feb 4, 2011 3:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Which is still a SSS.

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

hey.

projections. where you at?

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Got 'em.

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

you and Chiburb were the two glaring omissions that i noticed

well that and larry, but he probably thinks he’s being nice by not ripping the project to shreds or something.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I am truly hurt by your comment because I hadn't submitted by the time you made your post

damn gingers.

It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT

by rhythm on Feb 4, 2011 11:20 PM CST up reply actions  

see the new RRRR

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 5, 2011 12:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Well it pretty much is all there is.

How should it be judged? In his limited sample his uzr is atrocious in right and center, and near neutral in left. The complaints I have seen is bad instincts and inaccurate/suspect arm. So doesn’t this kind of add up? His instincts kill him in center, his arm in right, but left he can get by since his responsibilities are less and he could be more or less hidden, like Podsednik or El Caballo when he first came up.

by MelidoPerez on Feb 4, 2011 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

left and right are the same thing.

and that plus his TZ and FSR scores make it clear that he’s a below average corner OF. if the 20 run difference is overstating it, 15 definitely isn’t. and that doesn’t change the calculus much.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

If that's all there is, my friend,

then let’s keep dancing.

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

You don't mean this for everyone, right?

I don’t know how to compute wOPB, or whatever they’re asking for, forgot what the other one is, and did 3 or 4 plate appearances and realized I was really just guessing.

Since I don’t think some asshole throwing darts would be useful data, I passed.

By the way, as a market research employee, I think that the drop-down menus should show a “please select one” option, because you’re never sure if somebody actually chose 50 plate appearances, or wanted to say zero, and didn’t have the option.

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 4, 2011 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

i figured everyone can do the pitchers

and everyone who wanted to could do wOBA. as i said in that post, i know not everyone thinks in those terms. it was necessary given my limited resources. that said, i’m really happy with the results so far.

it’s fine that you decided not to vote, but i really doubt you’re less informed than most who ended up voting. fangraphs and b-r are nice tools to help ground votes in reality. on the other hand, that might feel like a bigger time commitment than you feel like making. that’s totally fine.

your point on the drop drown menus is well taken. i’ve never really done this before and while i knew there was possibility for bias based on the possible answer list (i tried to run the gamut of answers, beyond what i thought qualified as “reasonable”), that particular point didn’t occur to me. if there’s a post or something you think i should read, link or email me. i’m definitely no expert at giving surveys.

that said, there haven’t been any ballots so far where folks chose not to vote on certain candidates even though i didn’t make any of the votes required.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh, geez, I wouldn't know where to start looking

I just learned this through work. I think when crafting surveys, it’s best to consider that everyone will get confused, and to always consider any mistakes that could happen.

If somebody forgot to pick AJ Pierzynski’s PAs, you might think the person was putting him down for 50, instead of no answer. If I think Pierre’s going to get zero PAs, because Milledge is going to hit 4 HRs in a fluke opening day start, and hit .400 and never look back, I can’t indicate that.

You might have also tried to box the answers into groups. Does 50 mean 50, or does 50 mean zero to 50?

And please, you did a great job. I do not mean to pick at your work. These are just things that I picked up in 13 years at a MR company programming online surveys.

It’s just a way to seal off mistakes, avoid confusion and avoid “dirty” data.

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 4, 2011 6:03 PM CST up reply actions  

the groups are what fangraphs uses

it didn’t occur to me to do that. is it as simple as assuming i should use 25 if the group is 0-50? it seems like 0 is an anchor there. if you get a bunch of people selecting 0-50 compared to 50-100, etc., they probably mean 0, right? so i couldn’t just do an easy average.

most of my choices on this were made out of the desire to maximize votes and to use things i knew for sure i could manage.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Works for me.

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 6:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I am not a statistical analyst, but...

I think that if people picked 50, use 50. Or just assign a number to each value. 50=1, 100=2, then get your average from that. Thinking more about it, I wouldn’t play with the value of 50. It’s an anchor, so just go with 50.

by TasteeFreeze on Feb 5, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

oh for that, i was planning on it.

if there were more folks who skipped projections, then i might consider something else.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 5, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

The problem here is that you're willing to use Milledge's 1 season in LF as relevant data

But in the same breadth willing to dismiss Pierre’s 1 season in LF as also relevant.

That is poor logic, and larry will not allow further beatings of logic to occur in this web space.

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 5, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

if I ever get a horse im definitely naming him that

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 5, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

if i get any type of vehicle you paint a name on the side of

I am naming it Hubris

"Sportsmanship is just loser talk for losing."

by boyonthedock on Feb 5, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

i've said before

that i think Pierre is pretty much a zero platoon split player. his approach is predicated on hitting the ball the other way with a fairly open stance. he’s at his least useful against the worst pitchers, since your typical lefty would turn on pitches that he never will.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 3:26 PM CST up reply actions  

your last sentence is interesting

his ability to not hit homeruns against the shite of the league is what hurts him most?

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 4, 2011 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

well home runs in general are a problem

but the worst pitchers tend to get beat up the most, so yeah. also, he’d draw more walks if he hit for more power.

Original visitors' friend in the Lancaster County area!

by colintj on Feb 4, 2011 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't understand all the hate for Pierre.

I think he did a real nice job for the team last season and after Soxfest I am pretty convinced the dude works hard, plays right and helps out the young guys.

That being said I do like the Milledge signing. He isn’t going to be your starting left fielder unless something happens to pierre, however.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 4, 2011 6:46 PM CST reply actions  

I told you why I hate him

The man wears a hat under his helmet. How can I not hate that.

by notoneyguillen on Feb 4, 2011 6:52 PM CST up reply actions  

And BOS' Mom says he practices Santeria.

"One thought driven home is better than three left on base."

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2011 7:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I had to look that up you bastard

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 5, 2011 2:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Pierre is who he is

Nothing more, nothing less. Projected 1-2 wins.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 4, 2011 8:46 PM CST up reply actions  

one win

his D slows down, but he isnt a pile of shit on the plate in april

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 5, 2011 2:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Seriously all the quality crap lately with little comments

and Lastings gets 150+? Lol. Baseball season must be close.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Feb 4, 2011 8:49 PM CST reply actions  

this thread has been fucking hilarious

I hope this dude gets zero at bats this entire season just because of this thread. plus that would mean Q is healthy

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Feb 5, 2011 2:15 AM CST reply actions  

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