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Who's right in the Boras-Reinsdorf flap?

Jerry Reinsdorf held a candid interview with reporters on Tuesday, tackling several subjects surrounding the construction of the 2011 team. The central theme, which James did a nice job of summing up and WU has repeated often throughout the winter, is "you can't take it with you."

While Reinsdorf's explanation of the "all in" strategy has been thoroughly told and re-told over the last few months, an even older story took the lead in the second day of news.

Asked about how he determines when to commit to a young player, as the White Sox did this offseason in extending [Alexei] Ramirez for at least four years, Reinsdorf was honest in saying, "First, Kenny and [assistant GM] Rick [Hahn] have to say they want to commit to a guy. It’s different for each player [as to] when is the right time. And you can be wrong. You can obviously make a mistake."

Then, he cited a onetime fan favorite.

"Sometimes, the agent makes a mistake. We were ready to commit to Joe Crede, and Scott Boras didn’t [want to] talk about it. Look what that’s cost Crede."

Boras did not take kindly to that account of the events, and Brett Ballantini has his response:

Boras unearthed two pieces of correspondence dating to February 2006, one detailing a multiyear deal offered to the White Sox, and a response from the team, rejecting the proposal and indicating that the White Sox would only work year-to-year with Crede. The agent wouldn’t disclose the financial terms he outlined in his offer to the White Sox, but indicated it was a three-year proposal covering the 2006-08 seasons.

Boras also objected to the notion that there is a "hostile" relationship between his Boras Corporation and the White Sox, in spite of, in just one example, the club actively avoiding his clients in each June’s MLB Draft.

Boras pointed out that in 2010 he "steered" Andruw Jones to the White Sox and for the 2011 season avoided an arbitration hearing between client Tony Pena and the team—generally, that he and the White Sox work together "all the time."

"Jerry has to look at the files," Boras said. "I deal in facts. The White Sox didn’t want to do a multiyear [for Crede]."

This is a pretty strong rebuttal by Boras, but it automatically triggered some cognitive dissonance when considering the track records of the parties involved. The Sox generally like to extend players well before free agency if motivated, while Boras urges his clients to test the free market almost all the time. He'd rather take a one-year deal to boost value than risk sacrificing dollars with an advance signing.

Digging into the archives, my guess is that Reinsdorf and Boras are talking about two different times in Crede's Sox career. Both sides are probably right, but Boras' counterpoint fails to address what Reinsdorf was really referring to.

Star-divide

The key is the timing of Boras' alleged proposal. Note the years involved in the three-year deal: 2006 through 2008. Such a deal would only have settled Crede's remaining arbitration years. The Sox exercised control of Crede through 2008 - the final contract was a one-year, $5.1 million.

When Reinsdorf says the Sox were ready to "commit" to Crede, it's reasonable to assume he doesn't consider that contract much of a commitment, considering the Sox already had Crede in the plans for those years, regardless.

When Reinsdorf says that Boras balked on an extension, I'm guessing he's specifically thinking of the end of the 2007 season. According to Mark Gonzales' story on Feb. 17, 2008:

While the third baseman was taking swings during the Sox's brisk workout for pitchers and catchers, Williams recalled his bid to start talks on an extension designed to take pressure off Crede trying to rush back from surgery in a contract year.

"I was told point blank that he was going to be taken into free agency and there was no interest in that discussion," said Williams, who didn't exchange monetary figures. "So that's where we left it and we haven't revisited it."

Williams and Crede spoke after the workout for about 30 minutes to clarify his status. Crede says he would like to stay with the Sox but thinks it's wise to discuss an extension when he's healthy.

"I just look at it as a business," said Crede , who looked fit after rehabbing his back since January at Phoenix-based physical therapist Brett Fischer's facility. "Whatever happens, happens. You deal with it. You have to deal with a lot of adversity in baseball, anyway. It's just another part of the game."

Later on in the story, Crede said that he stayed out of extension talks, saying about Boras, "That's what I pay him for."

Two months later, Boras offered an account that varies some without fully negating Williams' version. According to a Daily Herald story from April 9, 2008.

"What Kenny said to me was if the Sox don't have a player signed going into the last year of a deal, he's usually not going to be a White Sox player,'' Boras said. "I can understand that point of view.

"I said that I couldn't negotiate while a player was injured, when I know he's not going to be injured next year. I said the Sox can't pay him while he's injured as if he weren't injured, so it would have to be at a discount.

"That's smart on Kenny's part, and I don't mind Kenny making that suggestion. There was no contract offer and we didn't talk about one. I just told him that I needed to be upfront with him and that my advice to Joe would be that he's a special player and when he's healthy a lot of teams are going to need a third baseman.''

Comparing these two accounts, it's easy to see why Boras would reject it. The Sox took a shot at buying low, as Crede was coming off a miserable, injury-marred 2007 season, and hadn't shown that he had fully overcome the herniated disc in his back. With Crede apparently offering no special input, Boras probably abided by his m.o. of gunning for the open market.

For at least three months, Boras' gamble looked great. Crede carried an OPS in the high .800's into mid-June with excellent defense, putting him prime position for a big payday. In fact, he boosted his OPS over .900 after a pair of two-homer games against Minnesota on June 6-7.

However, he soon began to fade. He hit .180/.252/.280 over his next 100 at-bats, during which reports of back problems resurfaced. Smoke led to fire. Crede hit the disabled list on July 21, played for a couple weeks in late August, and emptied his locker with a couple weeks to go in the regular season.

Based on Williams' and Boras' accounts, and the way the season played out, I'd wager on this series of events being pretty close to the truth:

  1. The Sox wanted to extend Crede for at least one year of free agency while he rehabbed from injury.
  2. Boras was not open to talking about a contract while the player was still considered "injured."
  3. Crede came out of spring training looking like his fully healthy self.
  4. Knowing the third baseman market and Boras' negotiation habits, they never revisited the idea.

That's my guess, anyway. Reinsdorf's right that Crede lost money by not working on an extension in late 2007. Assuming he wouldn't have taken a pay cut, Crede could have received somewhere around $5.5 million to $6 million for 2009. Instead, Crede signed with Minnesota for $2.5 million, and fell 33 plate appearances short of earning any incentives.

But Reinsdorf comes off a little too glib in saying so, because Boras had his reasons beyond a pure money/power play. If Boras was optimistic about Crede's health (and he had gone against the Sox's staff's recommendation by opting for treatment over surgery before succumbing to the knife, so the most effective measure was finally taken), it's reasonable that he would want more leverage before talking about a contract.

That said, Boras is misrepresenting Reinsdorf's argument to fit his side, saying the Sox avoided a "commitment" that would have required no commitment from Crede's camp.

So really, it's business as usual between the two parties. Boras has always said he has a good relationship with Williams, and Williams responds with standard courtesy to any questions about Boras. Whether or not Boras and Reinsdorf get along is immaterial, because unless arb-eligible players (Crede, Pena) or desperate veterans (Andruw Jones) are involved, chances are they'll never do business, anyway.

Star-divide

Mandatory plug: Want to learn more about the Sox's history with Scott Boras? Pick up White Sox Outsider 2011! He plays a big part in my retrospective on Kenny Williams' first year as White Sox GM.

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an interesting look

but Boras is and always will be an ass. he openly sends all his best players to the yankees so he can get his big bucks. I will do a tap dance when he leaves baseball.

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:15 AM CDT reply actions  

"he openly sends all his best players to the yankees so he can get his big bucks."

You mean like Jayson Werth, Adrian Beltre, and Matt Holliday?

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Mar 18, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

A player doesn't sign or stay with Boras

unless they are interested in getting every last cent. They know what they have signed up for.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Add Zito to that list.

Bryce Harper isn’t crying, either.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

oh whoopee, lets include drafted players who don't have a chance of dropping

and still get record amounts of money with boras

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Let's include everyone who has a choice of agents.

Your position is becoming less defensible with every post you make.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

sigh

substitute yankee with big market team

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not THIS argument again...

Wait, this isn’t the BMO Thread… nevermind, continue please ;-)

Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death

by Hazymania on Mar 18, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

So you don't like free markets?

Look at the NFL players and what they get vs. what they give up. If you believe in getting paid what you are worth you have to allow Boras to exist. You don’t have to like the methodology.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't

but I’m a commie. I want a salary cap.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Same.. or better revenue sharing.

I love baseball, but it would be damn hard to be a fan of the game if I was in Kansas City or Pittsburgh.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe I'm in the minority,

but I have no problem with the current salary structure in MLB. KC and Pitts problem speaks to poor management decisions. We’ll see if KC is still in the basement over the next three seasons, but it’s not like teams that suck have no chance ever. Look at Cincy and Tampa. Pissburgh’s problems aren’t money related.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Doesnt help that Pittsburgh doesnt even spend all the money that they get from revenue sharing

I thought I read that the Pirates payroll was $24 million last year. So I definitely think the system can use some tweaking

It was then I realized vegans can’t be trusted

by Scotty Ballgame on Mar 18, 2011 10:33 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Exactly, look at those teams..

First of all Cincinatti’s payroll is much higher than a Pittsburgh or Kansas City, but let’s say it’s not.
Cincinnati’s best season was third place in the last decade before last year. This is the first time they were over .500 since 2000.

Tampa Bay went a decade before finishing over .500, and their GM is considered one of the best in baseball.

So yes, if you want your team to be over .500 once a decade after getting both lucky in the draft and making very good moves, the system is working great for you.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Friedman turned the Rays around in 3 years, not 10.

I’m not saying the lower payroll teams don’t work at a sizeable disadvantage, but I don’t think it’s a prohibitive disadvantage.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are you just fucking trolling me here?

Three years? The core of that team was already there. Yeah, he made some great moves, but that is not a practical way to build a team. Unless you enjoy waiting a decade for your team to come together, only to see your best players quickly leave because you can’t afford them.

Crawford, Upton, Young (became Garza), Shields, etc.. were already there. He didn’t build the team from scratch.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Tampa's GM is relatively new, and their fan base is horrible.

MLB never – never – should’ve allowed a franchise there, and they should relocate or contract. The current management has done a helluva job in not screwing up the draft picks and trading for new ones.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Driving home from Sarasota, we drove through Tampa on her grandfather's suggestion that we take the 275 bridge for one last look at the Gulf before we returned to the snowy Midwest.

As we drove by the Trop my wife thoughtfully asks me, “Why would they play in a dome in Tampa?”

I smiled and shrugged.

Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death

by Hazymania on Mar 18, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

It rains a lot,

and it’s hotter than hell in the summer. So there is that.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

i remember in one series in 2009

the rain was absolutely pounding outside the stadium. they need a retractable roof and a real grass field

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

There is a clear cut

relationship between payroll and an ability to make the playoffs. Sure there are exceptions but that doesn’t change the point. In a nutshell teams like New York can make mistakes all day long with little ramifications.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I understand that.

I don’t have a problem with that system is my point.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah because you root for the White Sox

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, if you are truly a commie

then there is no point in arguing. In capitalism there are winners and losers. If you want “parity” enjoy the NFL. Owners already are lord and master over the minor leagues – the players should be allowed to sell their services to the highest bidder.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

'lord,' 'master'

Racist. ;-)

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

I do enjoy the NFL

And if a player wants to make more money God bless him. Im not arguing to change anyone one’s mind but the Yankees irate me.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

heh

"We know where your thumb is." - winningugly

by RWShow on Mar 18, 2011 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

capitalism...

I guess, but I’m not sure that Free Market is the right way to describe a system that gets an anti-trust exemption – though I’ll admit the line between that and how labor gets shuffled around is a little murky.

by SteveV on Mar 18, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

anti-trust exemption

yes, baseball has one but is it meaningful? baseball is entertainment, pure and simple. not only does baseball have to compete with other sports for consumers’ discretionary income, but also with movies, theatre, strip clubs, etc.

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Mar 18, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe more than a little murky

Yeah, insofar as the goods are entertainment. I’m not sure how far up the tree you can generalize the goods. Baseball is a kind of spectator-based entertainment which is a kind of entertainment which is a kind of pastime, etc. but the ‘goods’, so to speak, have been cornered. Another person might say that’s a niche. In the context of the FA discussion, it just makes it difficult for me to really evaluate one team ‘versus’ another. They are separate franchises, but they have some interest in each other’s partial success, at least.

by SteveV on Mar 18, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

The owners are certainly guilty of collusion with each other in terms of the players compensation structure

But baseball is paid for with discretionary dollars, therefore it competes with other products and services that are paid for with discretionary dollars. To the extent you would rather take a 4-year old to a baseball game than a strip club, there isn’t a perfect overlap, but by and large baseball has to compete in order to get consumer $.

Were consumers to be more interested in independent baseball leagues that (presumably) are not constrained by collective bargaining arrangements, players might be able to have unlimited freedom in negotiating their compensation.

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Mar 18, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

What kind of Dad would rather take his kid to a ballgame

than a strip club? Oprah-lover, you.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I said you, not me

Strip club FTW

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Mar 18, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um pardon me

but I believe there is a historical instance in which baseball ran a competing league out of business.

The NFL from a modern day did it to the USFL.

Anti trust is huge even if it appears its not being used.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

At the end of the day consumer demand (or lack thereof) broke the competing leagues

Players will demand a going rate to play ball. If the competing leagues had the sales to pay the players, they’d still be in existence. Their problem was popularity of the product, pure and simple.

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Mar 18, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Incumbents have a helluva advantage in any business.

But there is value (financial) in that infrastructure.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is simply not true.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

The floor is your's.

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Mar 18, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Players League built Wrigley Field

They had it coming.

Our manager wears 13, we were supposedly cursed, and we wear black. Let's play.

by ChiSoxRox on Mar 18, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ack, Federal League

History fail

Our manager wears 13, we were supposedly cursed, and we wear black. Let's play.

by ChiSoxRox on Mar 18, 2011 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

hell yeah its meaningful

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

it allows mlb to prevent teams from moving cities.

compare how many teams in other sports have relocated. i’d bet most on here can’t even name the last baseball team who did it and when.

by larry on Mar 18, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Nationals in 2005.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol.

yeah, duh. easy to forget that horseshit team. well, prior to that, it was a long time.

by larry on Mar 18, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

humorously involving washington as well

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Mar 18, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is a good point.

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Mar 18, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

The anti-trust exemptioin

allows baseball to keep teams in certain cities, and out of others.

Without an exemption, the Devil Rays, Brewers, Pirates, A’s, and Marlins could all move to New York, all demand to use new Shea and new Yankee stadiums, since they’re publicly funded, and draw from the Yankees’ fanbase. I bet lots of Yankee fans would buy tickets to the Rays games at Yankee stadium when they play the visiting Yankees. And then the Rays could claim rights to any New York Rays games being broadcast in New York.

Shit, I might even try to get rich and throw in with an ownership group just to make that happen.

And when the Mets suck, don’t you think there’d be lots of fans who would love to root for a World Series bound Manhattan Marlins or Brooklyn Brewers?

by TasteeFreeze on Mar 18, 2011 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Preaching to choir

Any country where Senators and Congressmen are exempt to insider trading rules and have portfolio’s that breathtakingly outperform the market is a broken country.

bobpuller lives

by Rhubarb on Mar 18, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah that is some bullshit.

But that’s a political problem, not a free markets problem

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Mar 18, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Spellcheck will never fix ye WU.

Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death

by Hazymania on Mar 18, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Look at Tdogg's post above mine, Hazy.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Reading is a skill...

I’m putting myself in timeout for the remainder of this thread.

Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death

by Hazymania on Mar 18, 2011 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Same goes for you too!

Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death

by Hazymania on Mar 18, 2011 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I could have just said the small market team experience.

Which is the only concern here. That’s what the whole discussion is about. I shouldn’t have singled out Tampa.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think you'd start with

Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Florida, Tampa Bay, Oakland.

You could also argue teams like Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Washington are at a significant disadvantage.

Obviously, I’d have to do some research into market size and revenue to give you a better answer, but it doesn’t really matter if I listed the correct markets.

It doesn’t change the main point that it’s clearly much easier for some teams to compete than others.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well...

I’m not sure I agree. We’ve already talked about KC and Pitt, but I’ll just say that I think baseball’s financial structure is pretty far down on the list as reasons why they are where they are.

Tampa Bay might be legit. I’m not sure that’s a good market for baseball long-term, but then again, given MLB’s broadcasting restrictions, I’m not sure there’s a strong candidate city to move them to.

Florida is tricky. Miami is a huge market, IIRC one of the biggest markets in baseball. Is Florida a small market team because of the system? Or is it because of the ownership doing a poor job of ‘selling the Florida Marlin brand’ (as kind of a catch all phrase) over the years? Or maybe it’s just because Miami isn’t a good baseball market? I’m not sure…

Behind all this, though, you seem to have be working from some ideal structure of “competitive balance”. I’m not sure MLB should be working from that point. I just know that the current model has MLB in pretty great financial shape. MLB is, first and foremost, a business. I’ll again say that it’s not perfect — I’m not completely comfortable with the fact that New York (currently) can spend so much more than most everyone. I just think a salary cap (and a corresponding salary floor) create strange distortions and — on the whole — makes the game worse.

by CWSKeith on Mar 18, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

i would chalk it up to miami fans being shite.

I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.

by thatshortkid on Mar 18, 2011 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep.

If “shite” means “front-running” then I agree.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

LA fans are late all the time, too.

Same mentality, except with more salsa thrown in. LA has had a lot longer to cultivate an audience. Miami does generally like the "Fins.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Honest to God question:

Do the Lakers suffer from similar traffic problems that the Dodgers do?

Yes, LA traffic is notorious for a reason, but not being an LA guy, how isolated is or isn’t the Staples Center compared with Dodger Stadium?

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

no. staples center is right in the middle of downtown

dodger stadium is off in hilly bumblefuck.

i’ve never been to a laker game, but been to clips/kings. you can tell the place was specifically built to milk a fuckton of money off of laker games. it’s nice.

I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.

by thatshortkid on Mar 18, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm coming to Burbank next month for a quick day.

LAX to Burbank is <20 miles, right. Estimated time of travel, according to Google – 1 hour, 26 minutes.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

LA traffic is something to behold.

"We know where your thumb is." - winningugly

by RWShow on Mar 18, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Been to Chavez Ravine once

it’s not horribly far from Echo Park, and it felt like one could actually walk if one wanted, but I think the neighborhoods in between are pretty iffy, and I think the ball park’s far from any street a bus would stop on.

by TasteeFreeze on Mar 18, 2011 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah, and i guess to clarify

with staples, it’s in the middle of a lot of intersections of freeways and kind of flat. chavez ravine is a little north of there and hilly and the area logistically can be a real pain in the ass to get in and out of.

at least when games get out the freeways are clear. mercy.

I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.

by thatshortkid on Mar 18, 2011 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

sure, if the U suck.

I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.

by thatshortkid on Mar 18, 2011 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Miami is old and poor

Commenting paragraph by paragraph-

KC and Pittsburgh are regional markets. People in fucking West Virginia would walk around in Pirates’ caps if it wasn’t the quintessence of losing.

I think Portland is the largest municipal region without a baseball team, and somebody like Jayson Starck has written about Portland as a baseball town. I’m too lazy to look up AAA attendence figures.

As for Miami – To rip off Wikipedia:

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2004, Miami had the third highest incidence of family incomes below the federal poverty line in the United States, making it the third poorest city in the USA, behind only Detroit, Michigan (ranked #1) and El Paso, Texas (ranked #2.) Miami is also one of the very few cities where its local government went bankrupt, in 2001.

Plus, the south is football country. Nobody cares about baseball. The Braves might have fans scattered around the old south, but here in Columbia, SC, it’s all Clemson and USC. Bears and Cocks. Baseball is something to do, in the south, but there’s no history to the teams.

I joked around above, but baseball doesn’t need an anti-trust exemption. Sure, you might get another team in New York, and the A’s or Pirates might turn into baseball’s Arizona Cardinals. New York has shown it can support 3 teams. I seen no reason to keep a team from moving there to cut into the Yankees’ broadcast rights, at least.

by TasteeFreeze on Mar 18, 2011 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

the pirates location isn't their problem.

they also have an impressive history of good teams.

can selig actually strip ownership from owners? or demand that they sell-up/sell the team for them?
i could see such an action causing major ruckus, but if the pirates owners show little inclination towards winning i think the fans of the club have the right to demand better. the club should belong to the city and the fans over whoever actually ‘owns’ it.

by craigws on Mar 18, 2011 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

come on man

you’re not stupid, its not hard to figure out

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

because the team got shredded by free agency

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Disagree with the assessment that they got 'shredded'

by free agency. They are still very much a part of the AL East mix.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

What was his point?

All e did was state a fact. Yes, the Red Sox signed one of Tampa’s best players to a contract that one other team (Yankees) could match. However, losing Crawford to Boston doesn’t mean the Rays got ‘shredded’ and are looking at another run of cellar-dweller baseball.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not with the question marks in their rotation

They’re clearly favorites, but not by a wide margin – it’s a three-team race in the AL East.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Mar 18, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

because its throwing money at players

no strategy, and they have been doing this for a while, which means other teams can’t keep up

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

So Theo Epstein's only talent is that his owners have money to spend.

Cashman, too. This is an idiotic posture. The Scrubs have been spending money like, well like the US, and it hasn’t bought them any rings.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, they do

But it’s a strategy most teams have no way of using. It’s easy to put together a great strategy like Boston uses. Only a couple teams out there can actually implement it though.

It’s not like Epstein could do the things he does in Boston if he ran the Pirates or A’s.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that "Moneyball" guy in Oakland

has no competitive strategy whatsoever.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

imagine if he didn't have to rebuild 3 out of every 4 years.

though with him you could argue he does it cuz it’s just more fun that way.

by Trooper on Mar 18, 2011 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Some coaches like "green peas" -

teaching (think Larry Brown). Some like established teams (think Torre or Phil Jackson). Why wouldn’t some GM’s like to play fantasy baseball and get paid for it?

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes.. doesn't that prove my point?

A guy well known for his strategy, still has struggles keeping up with the teams with more money.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

It doesn't make your point.

If he didn’t like where he was he could move to a number of teams. He was in OAK before Theo was in BOS. He could’ve gone to the Mets. Etc.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's the GM, not a fan.

I never said a GM doesn’t enjoy the challenge of managing a team with less resources.

What does that have to do with anything?

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

So now we're not talking about GM's,

when above you said Beane was a great example of your point. Be consistent.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

No...

He was a great example of even good decision making not being enough to be consistently competitive as the Yankees are.

I never said anything about him not enjoying his job, which is what you were apparently getting at.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

there is quite a difference between throwing money at players

and making good moves. boston is definitely in the latter camp.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Mar 18, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

of course signing good players is smart

but they’re one of 2-3 teams who can only afford it

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

hyperbole does not help arguments

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Mar 18, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure it does.

You can eliminate the option of taking the source seriously.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

wheres the hyperbole?

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

2-3 teams

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Mar 18, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

there are more then 2-3 teams who can sign huge contracts

bos, nyy, nym, chn, cha, laa, lan, was, sea, hou, phi… maybe more?

by coffeepac on Mar 18, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Virtually every team 'can' sign huge contracts

it’s just a question of whether the player is worth it. Hell, Toronto did it. How much money did the Marlins give to Hanley?

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

how many teams have more than one big contract?

ill take a look

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

'Big' meaning 100 mill?

New York, Boston, Detroit, Minnesota, LAA, Seattle, New York, Philly, Washington, Chicago, St. Louis, Houston, San Francisco and Colorado.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

(Cough). Reading fail.

‘More than one.’ Eliminates all but New York, Philly and Boston, once Gonzo gets his extension.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

thank you

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

let's set the baseline at $13MM per year

LAA: Wells & Hunter (with Haren and Kazmir both at $12MM)
ATL Lowe, Jones, Uggla
STL Holliday, Pujols, Carpenter
CHC Soriano, Zambrano, Ramirez, Fukudome, Dempster
SF Zito, Lincecum (Rowand at 12 with Cain to join next year)
NYM Santana, Beltran, Bay, Wright
PHI Halladay, Howard, Lee, Oswalt, Utley
TEX Young, Beltre
BOS Beckett, Lackey, Crawford, Drew
MIN Mauer, Morneau
CHW Peavy, Buehrle
NYY yeah.

SEA, FLA, and DET join this next year

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Mar 18, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

thank you, the list is a bit longer than expected

now we can look at teams who are struggling or will be struggling because of bad contracts.
St. Louis
Chicago Cubs
New York Mets
Los Angles Angels

The Yankees could afford any of the bad contracts on those teams and still spend their way into the world series

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

The years 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008

all disagree with you.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

still made the playoffs all those years but one

every team I listed above did not last year

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also

HOU Lee

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

God damn. Repeat fail.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

This goes back to the issue of small markets

in the late 1990s, weren’t Baltimore, Toronto and Cleveland all amongst the highest spenders in the game? Circumstances (ownership, local economy, sustained success/failure, among others) change, and with it changes how much these teams spend.

by CWSKeith on Mar 18, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

My initial thought is yes, but I'd be curious to see the numbers.

in absolute terms the answer is certainly yes, but I’d like to see a relative comparison.

by CWSKeith on Mar 18, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

me too. here we go.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=1988

quick look says even first to worst isn’t nearly the 5x it is today. more relevant maybe is that first to 5 or 10 isn’t that big of a dropoff.

by Trooper on Mar 18, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

This also goes back to cities ebbing and flowing

re: population/business resources. Detroit and Cleveland used to be huge manufacturing hubs. Toronto will be upping the ante once again eventually since Canada is kicking economic ass and Toronto is a city with vast resources.

Not every “small market team” will always be a small market.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is an interesting and very good point

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

2-3, eh?

You are on fire today.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

boston has one of the better farm/scouting systems in the game

much like TB.

AND they have a ton of cash, much like NYY.

their strong farm got them Gonzales.
their money got them Crawford.

I like them going away in the east.

by e-gus on Mar 18, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

no shit they have funds

i went to the sox-sox sweep last year. i spent more on one game ticket than i did for the entire oakland series. and guess which stadium was packed to the rafters and selling SRO?

I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.

by thatshortkid on Mar 18, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah im going to fenway in june

and tickets are outrageous. sold out already and crazy high mark up aftermarket prices.

by e-gus on Mar 18, 2011 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Supply is limited.

Demand is fierce. Astronomical ticket prices are easily supported.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do you think teams should just sell tix at market value?

Selling tickets at below market is simply transferring wealth from the team to those fortunate enough to have legacy rights to the season tix (or lucky enough to score the very few single-game tix).

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Mar 18, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

StubHub helps determine that these days, I think.

I like a flexible pricing schedule, like a hotel that has to fill beds and can adjust pricing quickly to do that.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Rays will get 11 of the first 75 picks in the strong 2011 draft

I think they can live without Crawford.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Mar 18, 2011 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Has nothing to do with the FA system.

Has to do with a horrible stadium and location, plus fans who have a history of supporting few pro sports venues consistently. (That goes for all of Florida.)

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

florida is a huge baseball state

theres no reason why tampa shouldn’t have a big following, so I agree there that its their fault for not making themselves desirable to fans and players. the point is its not really a free market when theres one corporation dominating. theres less competition then there should be

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

college...

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, my bad.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Florida is a huge sports state, sure.

But MLB hasn’t been down here for 100 years. It takes awhile to build a fan base. College sports is very, very popular – still more popular than pro sports. There are many reasons Tampa has not lit up the attendance sky in any pro sport.

Quit talking out of your rear-end.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Spring training doesn't help

A lot of native fans can get their fix of their favorite non-Florida team if the geography’s right.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Mar 18, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

And baseball is a distant 4th behind...

College Football, NASCAR, and NFL. I contend that if you grew up in Boston, baseball is part of your culture. If you grew up in Greenvillle, SC, it isn’t, by a long shot.

by TasteeFreeze on Mar 18, 2011 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

One more thing from me, before I get down to actually working

I have to say that I think it’s crazy that people can look at the NFL, NBA or NHL structures and think to themselves, “Yep — let’s emulate them.” MLB is in a pretty good spot, and their next CBA negotiation should be a relative breeze compared to the other three (slotting? trading of draft picks? more stuff related to drug testing?). Is it perfect? No, of course not. In comparison to the other leagues’ schemes, though, it’s pretty damn good.

(*)This one is particularly distressing. The NBA is putting out an absolutely fantastic product out right now, and the coming playoffs should be epic (first-round, even — I’d bet on a first-round upset in the West, although I’m not smart enough to pick a particular one). It would suck big time if a significant chunk of next season was interrupted due to a labor strife.

by CWSKeith on Mar 18, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah Keith

but a great deal of that I think is because they learned from the fallout of 94. I get your point but I don’t think its so simple. The NFL will be fine. I do agree and worry about the NBA. That’s going to be very nasty.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Those labor problems

Don’t come from a competitive imbalance though. I don’t know what your point is? Yeah, they have problems, but no one is bitching that the teams have a salary cap or revenue sharing.

It’s not like they are having a lock out because the Giants or Cowboys want to stop giving money to the Jaguars.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree that the next NBA agreement is going to be brutal

there are a lot of problems there

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're either drunk or trolling at this point.

Considering it’s Friday, and it’s past noon, I’d say it’s a toss up.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm serious.

There are a number of models you can use to build a team. For actual fans of the Rays, their experience these last few years and moving forward is pretty good. So what if it sucked for them before? The fact that they are at a sizeable money disadvantage when compared with every other team in their division doesn’t prevent them from being one of the best teams in baseball, it just makes things more difficult for them.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you can agree

That they’re at an obviously large disadvantage, and they basically have no margin for error, I’d say this discussion is done.

I don’t know how you think that is a good system, but as long as you understand the clear problems with it, no reason to continue the discussion.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

You mean like at 10:45 this morning when I typed
I’m not saying the lower payroll teams don’t work at a sizeable disadvantage, but I don’t think it’s a prohibitive disadvantage.

?

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

There are only 8 baseball markets smaller than St. Louis

yet they seem to put a good team on the field, most seasons.

St. Louis has a historical, regional presence. Those fans turn out to see the Cards play anyone. St. Louis is a well-run organization, and LaRussa helps with recruitment.

I suppose once LaRussa leaves, the GM could screw up, and make that team pretty unfun to watch for a decade, but a Cards’ game is part of the culture there. Pittsburgh could do everything the Cards do and they don’t.

by TasteeFreeze on Mar 18, 2011 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

for example:

the mets just cut luis castillo despite still owing him $6M.

by craigws on Mar 18, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mets are a great example, you think?

The guys who are broke and needing to sell an equity interest in the team are now burning dollars because they can. Well, if they can, it’s because MLB is propping them up for now.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

i wasn't building an argument around that,

i just read about it and figured it supported his general point.
if they can cut him for that much, especially considering their circumstances (as you point out), then it is reasonably fair to say they can make mistakes without too many ramifications.

by craigws on Mar 18, 2011 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

hi.

I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.

by thatshortkid on Mar 18, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

It may have been why they thought they could afford Delgado-esque contracts -

8-9% each year, come hell or high water. But they made stupid contract decisions, also.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

They were in bad shape before the Madoff thing broke.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Mar 18, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

when in that division, i'd say there are ramifications. like making the playoffs once in the last ten years.

phillies and braves are legit, frequent contenders. lesser division, the big market team probably can get away with more.

by larry on Mar 18, 2011 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

e.g. Cubs, Dodgers.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I understand your point, but I wouldn't cite the Dodgers.

The NL West is always pretty competitive despite the varience of operational budgets present. Every team from that division has made the playoffs at least once since 2006, no other division can come close to saying that.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

The NL Central has also been competitive.

The Dodgers have taken on huge contracts. AZ has, too, and is not living well as a result of it (they are the Marlins West). Dodgers are in a financial pickle because of divorce, not because of revenue.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

i worded that badly.

have to be more careful in conversations like this.

basically, they had to dump that salary, but it isn’t going to inhibit their financial decisions too much down the line. once they shed bad contracts they can bounce back easier than other teams. i’d be surprised if they weren’t involved if pujols hits free agency.

by craigws on Mar 18, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's OK.

American is not your first language.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

salary cap sets a ceiling and a floor

Make them spend it

It was then I realized vegans can’t be trusted

by Scotty Ballgame on Mar 18, 2011 10:34 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don't like salary floors, either

why should a rebuilding (or any team, really) team be forced to spend x amount of money on their payroll? Take this year’s Pirates, who (again) have very little shot of competing for the central. There’s little chance that any elite player is going to sign with them, so they’re going to do what, overpay Matt Diaz and a bunch of other mediocrities just to get to the floor?

I think I understand the crux of your point is so that revenue sharing money doesn’t just get pocketed by the owners, and that’s a point I’m more sympathetic to. Perhaps there’s a requirement that that money has to be spent on “baseball operations”? I’m just not sure how something like that is enforced.

A couple of other somewhat-related points:

- One of the reasons I like baseball’s system is that it’s a whole lot less complicated than, say, basketball, hockey or football. While trudging through the NFL’s CBA sometime last year for a paper, I can’t tell you how much confusion I ran into (part of that, of course, is the language in which the CBA is written is difficult to decipher). And, although I know much less about the NBA and NHL’s ‘salary systems’ (for lack of a better term) than MLB’s, there’s a whole lot of wierd shit there, too, like the various trade exemptions in the NBA (as one example) and the unintended consequence of crazy, long-term contracts in the NHL to circrumvent (Gob!) the cap.

- The concept of a team’s “market” is, IMO, a lot more fluid than most people grant. The Twins are the easiest example of this. Less than a decade ago, they were considered to be one of the smallest market teams. Hell, I think at some point Bud Selig (or someone arguing from a pro-cap perspective) explicitly stated that the Twins simply cannot compete in baseball. (I also seem to recall similar concerns about Philadelphia, which, of course, would be considered crazy right now.) Perhaps I’m way off on this, but I don’t think a well-run Pittsburgh or KC franchise will struggle to maintain (in today’s standards) $80-100 million payrolls.

- Finally, part of this is preference. I like for there to be dominant teams. I like that the Yankees are consistently good. Similarly, I love that Barcelona is free to be dominant without restrictions (well, not until UEFA Fair Play comes into effect, at least). I guess I think of it as a “rising tide lifts all boats” sort of thing. But there’s also the satisfaction gained when we do beat teams like the Yankees and the Red Sox.

by CWSKeith on Mar 18, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

You miss the point

the Yankees are consistently good because they buy it. The margin of error for other teams is ridiculously high for other franchises to be “well run”.

I’m certainly not telling you what you should like (that’s opinion) but its wrong to imply its an easily overcome burden of some franchises.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

"They buy it" -- that's kind of a meaningless expression

I see your point about being able to absorb contract blunders. Still, I’m not sure that a salary cap is any kind of panacea here. If a small market team makes a bad contract decision under a salary cap, they’re even more fucked under a salary cap — not only are they stuck with that contract, but they won’t be able to trade the contract, as other teams won’t be willing to take it on.

Of course, in talking about the Yankees, they’ve also had quite a bit of good fortune to have two up-the-middle, HoF players come up around the same time. That never hurts…

by CWSKeith on Mar 18, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Of course they'd be screwed..

But at least they’d be on an even playing field. If you fail at the things you can control, well, shit happens.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

But the game as a whole is worse off

if Kansas City — under a salary cap — signs Nick Punto(*) to a three year, $30 deal there’s very little chance they can trade him, as most other teams who might be interested in such a player likely won’t be able to or want to commit any amount of resources to such a player.

But if you assume that a player like Punto isn’t completely useless — i.e., he’d make a decent bench player or is a decent stopgap — there are likely some teams where the marginal value of the Punto upgrade (like the pieces colin sometimes links to, the “sweet spot” on the wins curve) is worth his overall salary (or, if it’s not completely worth it, perhaps sending a couple million along makes it reasonable).

Of course, you can get around this by giving MLB owners — like NFL owners, IIRC — the ability to terminate part or all of contract/salary commitments. Perhaps that’s a route you’d like to go down?

(*)The player here isn’t really important.

by CWSKeith on Mar 18, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

The game is worse off?

The system works fine in the NFL and the NBA. If you make a mistake, you make a mistake. How is the game worse off?

The team certainly is worse off, but the league is fine. At least the Knicks were losing because they made poor decisions and signed guys like Houston, Curry and Marbury.

It was in their control. They didn’t fail because the Celtics and Lakers outspent them. They failed because the Celtics and Lakers made better decisions than they did.

Wouldn’t you rather have a system where those who make smart decisions are rewarded, not those who happen to play in New York or LA?

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think MLB already has that.
Wouldn’t you rather have a system where those who make smart decisions are rewarded, not those who happen to play in New York or LA?

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well I think you're clearly wrong.

You’ve said so yourself when you made it clear you agree it’s more difficult for small market teams.

Bad decisions like Carl Pavano for example don’t hurt you if you’re the Yankees. They just replace him with someone else, Tampa can’t do that.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's irrelevant.

The fact is they can’t, the big market teams can. You’re using an exception to the rule to make your argument. It’s ridiculous.

If you don’t want things to be fair, that’s fine. As a fan though, I prefer my team to have a fair chance at competing. Clearly you don’t agree.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

So "fair" means everyone has to have the same resources.

Interesting.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Baseball isn't life

baseball presents itself in 30 markets, telling each market’s fans that it’s team is going to put a professional team on the field. The premise is that each team can win. But they can’t.

Now, when you add in that cities are swindled into providing stadiums under the notion that a sports team somehow adds to the quality of life for a citizen of that city, baseball does owe it to people whose out-of-town relatives pay $50 a day to rent a car, or a $10 surcharge to fly into Seattle – to actually allow them a lottery ticket that has some chance of winning.

Look at it like this. If Paramount studios conned a town into building a huge movie theater to show their films, where Paramount would pay little for maintenance, and would make all the revenue, and then none of the films had endings, you wouldn’t chalk it up to competition. That would be fraud.

Paramount couldn’t say that people are paying to see the illusion of movement affected by rapidly changed picture stills. People would be paying to see complete movies. Baseball fans aren’t paying to see an exhibition between athletes. They’re paying to see a team have a chance to win.

If the Pirates won’t try fielding a team, they should have their franchise taken away, and baseball should find another owner.

by TasteeFreeze on Mar 18, 2011 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

It's not irrelevant at all.

You yourself said a system that rewards smart decisions. The Rays really haven’t made a stupid or bad decision in a long, long time. Yeah, they simply can’t afford to make mistakes and remain competetive like Bos and NY. So what?

Were the Rays any other team (like the Pirates, for instance), they would have seen a corresponding increase in their ability to spend money and retain some of their players better. But their fans suck, as WU said earlier. That isn’t the Yankees fault, nor should they be punished for having more fans.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh hit there!

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Mar 18, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Lakers and Celtics both benefitted from their guys giving them good deals from other organizations

Jerry West gave the Lakers Gasol.
Kevin McHale gave the Celtics Garnett.

That certainly helps.

by e-gus on Mar 18, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah but his point remains

Dwight Howard aint going to the Miami Heat next year

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

So where's he going, Nostradamus?

And, FTB.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Look at the teams that are contenders and have money.

Lakers, Bulls and Mavs most likely?

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think he want to go to the Lakers

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think you right, Tonto.

Or is it Frankenstein?

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Than the Lakers?

Please. Though I like the Bulls’ future, I think Dwight wants to follow Shaq’s lead.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

And play with a Kobe who has

even more miles and even less in the tank? Come on…Kobe is one of the best 5 to ever play, but he won’t be more likely to win a title in 2013 than Rose/Noah/Boozer/Thibs.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Howard wants to make movies

for real.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well...he can always guest star on The Chicago Code

or I can film a movie version of ‘Early Edition’ or something.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

i can't wait for "kazaam 2: fast don't boogaloo"

I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.

by thatshortkid on Mar 18, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

easy with that top 5 ever talk.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Mar 18, 2011 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

easy with that top 5 ever talk.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Mar 18, 2011 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd say simply because Miami is in the East i

it will be more difficult.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

So you also expect pretty steep decline from

the Mavs/Thunder/Spurs?

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

No

but add a few pieces to Miami. Who’s tougher Miami or the Thunder

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Very true.

But how scary are the Bulls if you add Howard? I don’t see who stops that team.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

that move seems irrelevant to me

give me a shooting guard instead

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Over Dwight Howard?!

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

we already have noah

replace bogans

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would drive Noah to Florida myself if it meant we got Howard.

Howard is one of the top 5 players in the world. Noah will never be.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

i don't know too much about basketball

so i could be completely wrong. howard would be a great addition

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like Noah a hell of a lot more than I ever thought I could.

I hated, hated, hated him in college and wanted to drown puppies in blood when they drafted him, but he’s grown into a really important part of the Bulls.
But Dwight Howard will always be better. At everything, lol.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

ok, but the yankees can sign 10-20 puntos to that contract and not bat an eyelash

I would be happy with a cap on the yankees only, but thats just my self loathing

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nugget w.r.t. Yankees

Several years ago I did a very naive calculation with regards to Chicago’s NL team, estimating how many W.S. one would expect over the years assuming that the likelihood of winning the penant/division/etc. is equal among each team and that in the playoffs you have a 50-50 chance to get through each round. For that team, it worked out that 0 for 100 seasons was just shy of 3-sigma (not quite good enough to rule out luck in my field). What was much more improbable was how many the wretches from the Bronx have come up with.

by SteveV on Mar 18, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

your naive formula is missing quite a few variables I think

While it is still improbable, they have had several other factors pushing hte odds in their favor- KC as a farm team back in the day, infinite salary boundaries now, etc.

by e-gus on Mar 18, 2011 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

 A lot of things are missing but it was fun. Saying that the Yankee’s winning is ‘improbable’ is a bit sloppy on my part. Let me restate it as saying it makes it a lot more obvious that the NY success rate above naive expectations (Lift) suggests there are real factors to look for. From a statistical point of view, the same analysis wouldn’t provide a stong impetus to look for ‘reasons’ behind the losing team’s lack of success.

by SteveV on Mar 18, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

a small market team wont even get close to the salary cap

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

I assumed it was implied

If you have a salary cap, there’s a salary floor.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 18, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

'worth'

is something boras played a part in manipulating. FSB.

by Trooper on Mar 18, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Worth" is what some overeager owner is willing to pay.

Welcome to capitalism. Move to Europe if you want caps.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

there certainly aren't any caps in football (soccer).

there has been talk now that players are starting to bank £250k a week.

by craigws on Mar 18, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

boras is a horse cunt who could care less about baseball

I like free markets, but I dunno what that has to do with baseball. the destruction of the rays is a perfect example of what is wrong with him.

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

"Destruction of the Rays?"

How dramatic. They are going to field a competitive team again this year. Gee, they lost Crawford? Guess the Braves were “destroyed” when they lost Teixeira to FA. They had to trade Garza? Shrewd move. They lost Pena to the Cubs? BWAHAHAHAHA.

Fer Chrissakes.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

FTR, the Braves traded Teixeira to the Angels.

They were the ones that ‘lost’ him, but since they won 100 games the year after they lost him, your point is the same.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

they had to trade garza because they couldn't afford him

I, along with Kenny, will taken the proven 2-3 starter over a prospect who walks way too many people

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Rays got four useful prospects in that deal and immediately replaced Garza with Hellickson, one of the better pitching prospects in the game

The Cubs got two years of a well-paid pitcher who is mildly above average.

Yeah, let’s emulate that model.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Mar 18, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually, I brought up the example to support my position.

So it was a good example.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

i disagree on how this trade will eventually turn out

but there are other examples out there

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Rays also signed one of the best players in baseball to an insanely team friendly contract

and have a ton of other talent locked in. Didn’t not one but two Boras clients come to the Rays this offseason?

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

But the Yankees were able to get both Colon AND Prior this winter

how can any team hope to compete with that. the system is broken

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Mar 18, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

heh

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

There is definitely a clear connection

But I don’t think anyone here has demonstrated that it’s a strong connection. You’re right, anecdotes don’t cut it. For every Yankees/Red Sox, there’s Rangers, Rays, etc.

I mean, we could graph payroll to wins… I’m sure someone has… it’s not hard. Not seeing a lot of hard, factual arguments that payroll disparity is damaging the game.

Also, it’s pretty easy to argue that baseball has greater parity than the NFL.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Mar 18, 2011 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Rangers are a great example,

since they went bankrupt spending millions and won by doing it the old fashioned way. I wouldn’t call the Rangers “austere” by any means. And I bet they are getting tighter by the moment, what with the GM quitting already – I bet Ryan is a cheap screw who wants to grow his way to success, not buy it.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

baseball has greater parity than the nfl?

thats new

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

thats a look at one years worth of playoff teams

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

you win the best reader award
In the N.F.L., 24 of 32 teams have made the playoffs over the past five seasons. That’s 75 percent. In baseball, 22 of 30 have made the playoffs in the same time span. That’s 73.3 percent, despite the fact that the N.F.L. awards 12 playoff spots each season, and baseball – for now, anyway – awards only eight.

by larry on Mar 18, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I was talking about this
Consider the eight N.F.L. teams still alive, and compare them to the eight teams in the 2010 baseball postseason. The season of the team’s previous appearance in a conference championship game or league championship series is in parentheses.

N.F.L.: New England (2007), Jets (2009), Pittsburgh (2008), Baltimore (2008), Atlanta (1998), Green Bay (2007), Chicago (2006), Seattle (2005).

M.L.B.: Tampa Bay (2008), Texas (never), Yankees (2009), Minnesota (2002), Philadelphia (2010), Cincinnati (1995), San Francisco (2002), Atlanta (2001).

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Because after 14 games everyone is beat to shit.

The last 2 can be for resting for the playoffs. Would be interesting to see how games 17-18 would look re: quality.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Aren't schedules also fixed so that bad teams get easier schedules?

(In practice, I imagine this is difficult, given the year-to-year variance, but I could also see it playing some part.)

by CWSKeith on Mar 18, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually, this is a misnomer

for the 1st place team and the 4th place team, they play 2 different opponents, the 1st place team has 2 “hard” teams, and the last place team has 2 “easy” teams, never mind bad luck or injuries the year before. These 2 games are balanced out by the 2 teams playing each other twice.

equal schedules.

by TasteeFreeze on Mar 18, 2011 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dig when you go all Rodney King on us.

“PEACE!” Go green.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Boy do I enjoy the subject line.

"We know where your thumb is." - winningugly

by RWShow on Mar 18, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

boras is

the highest profile agent in baseball and probably 1a to drew rosenhaus for sports agents in america. he’s the broker of billions upon billions of dollars; there’s bound to be some slime. i don’t dislike him as much as i used to because he’s almost always doing the best thing for his clients (save for freak catastrophic injury to the player).

smarts/good scouting have beaten fat wallets the past few seasons (red sox/rays v. yankees, twins v. white sox, marlins v. last place). the yankees need a whole lot of starting pitching improvement before they surpass the red sox and maybe the rays.

by SARS on Mar 18, 2011 12:30 AM CDT reply actions  

If I'm reading you correctly

you’re pitting the Red Sox against the Yankees in terms of payroll (which kind of makes sense) but lumping them in with the Rays (which makes absolutely no sense).

2010 Payrolls (with MLB ranks)
1. NYY $206.3 million
2. BOS $162.7 million
21. TB $71.9 million

"The Sox have a better home record than the Twins, but...we're not at home right now." -DJ

by Joist on Mar 18, 2011 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I also don't agree with the idea that White Sox haven't used

‘smarts/good scouting’ as much as they’ve used a ‘fat wallet.’ Yes, they spend money, but they do scout heavily and have made some real coups with non-Boras clients. True, the Sox don’t have the Twins scouting department, but the Twins don’t have a World Series win in the last 9 post-season appearances.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why is it that when I picture the phrase "Boras-Reinsdorf flap" I get turned on?

I’m in love! i found a replacement for Freddy!
by KenWo4LiFe on Mar 8, 2011

by South Side Expat on Mar 18, 2011 12:56 AM CDT reply actions  

You like them uncircumcised?

"The Sox have a better home record than the Twins, but...we're not at home right now." -DJ

by Joist on Mar 18, 2011 1:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

blasphamey

It was then I realized vegans can’t be trusted

by Scotty Ballgame on Mar 18, 2011 10:36 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

having finished Kens 10 in the white sox outsider

I can appreciate that caption a lot more now

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:09 AM CDT reply actions  

aha

so it was Crain who struck out Paulie with the bases loaded on July 16th. that was a hard game to be at. lets see him do that to Joe Mauer this year.

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Now it's all about the legacy.

JR will be selling his version. For Boras, he’s still actively competing for high-end business, so he can’t let any swipe go unmentioned and unrebutted. Should be interesting.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 6:19 AM CDT reply actions  

1. I'd like to have Boras' bank account.

2. While I love Joe Crede for what he brought to the Sox, I’m glad the deal fell through.

"I'm tired of pretending I'm not special...I'm tired of pretending I'm not a total bitchin' rock star from Mars." – Actor turned nutjob Charlie Sheen (NBC-TV interview - 2/28/11)

by tailgater on Mar 18, 2011 8:26 AM CDT reply actions  

FSB

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 8:29 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

ITA.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

RWM

Repeatedly, with malice.

"I'm tired of pretending I'm not special...I'm tired of pretending I'm not a total bitchin' rock star from Mars." – Actor turned nutjob Charlie Sheen (NBC-TV interview - 2/28/11)

by tailgater on Mar 18, 2011 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ear.

Ear. Ear.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

This has all been a fascinating conversation

of Boras vs Reinsdorf. :-)

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 2:08 PM CDT reply actions  

It's all about who's got and who ain't.

A reporter for our local Trib-owned rag asked my wife last week if she knew anyone who is a “high-income” earner who cut back on spending during the market downturn and now feels more comfortable in making “luxury” purchases. The reporter wanted these folks to go on the record. I thought it would be a slam dunk to get some egotistical clients to say “yes”. Not one. No one wants to be seen as crowing about money when other folks are hurting.

All about the class warfare, dogg.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I can't even read this thread anymore

ill just say this, screw new york and their playoff team abandoning fans. some jerksquat tried to tell me that the yankees don’t cheat because they have a good farm and have revenue sharing which gives other teams in the league 1-2 million each year. yeah, spending your unlimited money on the farm is smart so kudos, but if you try to sell ohman to me as a reason that the yankees should be allowed to get away with murder, then I hope you choke. literally and figuratively

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:11 PM CDT reply actions  

You are spinning like a moth in its death throes near a porch light.

Good. Retreat and refocus. You’ve been badly beaten. You will live to fight another day.

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

funny

you’ve responded to each of my posts with something similar. this is baseball, not american politics, why should we defend the yankees in the name of a free market?

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

You are not listening.

;)

Jared Mitchell: GAMBARIMASU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by winningugly on Mar 18, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

baseball is america.

didn’t you see ken burns’ documentary.

by larry on Mar 18, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

In the truest sense it probably a Yankee debate

Most of the counter points on here become that much stronger if you didn’t have the Yankees doing their crap. Probably would cut down on my railing against the system too. Ideally I’d like to see 2 more teams in the NY area. Deal with that shit.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Mar 18, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

send the dodgers back to Brooklyn!

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

it's pronounced Doyers.

I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.

by thatshortkid on Mar 18, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

It seems weird to me that this argument is happening in the wake of a terrible offseason for the Yankees

In which smaller teams filched all of the starters that they desperately needed. They couldn’t even get Jorge De La Rosa!

What did they get? An extremely player-friendly deal for a setup pitcher, where the need was so questionable that even the team’s own GM seemed to be second-guessing it.

The Yankees are also laboring under a number of bad contracts that are only going to get worse. Yes, they can afford that better than any other team, but even they will suffer if they have multiple eleven-digit salary players in decline.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Mar 18, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

we are only one year removed from them spending about half a million dollars

hopefully they will start to slow when A-Rod and CC decline

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

*billion

quite a difference there

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

i don't see a-rod

ever being shite to the point of him being a burden.
his contract is awful, of course, but i’d be surprised if he was.

by craigws on Mar 18, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

won't he be 45 and be paid over 20 million?

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's probably the farthest he'll be able to hit at that point

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

so will Texiera

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

he'll be 41 when the contract ends.

$20 million probably won’t be all that expensive by that point. the elite players tend to age well. or, more specifically, they are declining from a much greater peak than other players. as pointed out, probably won’t be worth the contract. but he’ll probably just be an expensive league average-ish DH.

by larry on Mar 18, 2011 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

(Deep inhale).

Ahh…real baseball debate. Spring is here. Bitches.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 18, 2011 2:12 PM CDT reply actions  

worst thread ever.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Mar 18, 2011 3:01 PM CDT reply actions  

thanks. im sure your wisdom is far to valuable to share

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

*too

im firing my keyboard

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, this is unnecessarily angry of you.

"We know where your thumb is." - winningugly

by RWShow on Mar 18, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah it was. im stopping now

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC

by blackoutsox on Mar 18, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

i have to say ken after 10 is my favorite part of my white sox outsider experience.

and the rest of this thread looks too much like the BMO thread that i repeatedly Z through.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Mar 18, 2011 5:25 PM CDT reply actions  

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