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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

How long can this go Juan?

Pierre0515_medium

By some measures, Juan Pierre didn't have his worst game of the season during the White Sox's 4-3 victory over the Oakland A's. Technically, he could have hurt the Sox more. He did have a single, and he didn't commit an error. So he's got that going for him, which is nice.

But while Win Probability Added (more on that below) might say Pierre's had uglier days, I think that nonsentient stat is actually being kind. WPA doesn't take into account the cumulative toll Pierre's game has taken on everybody in and around the White Sox organization.

His performance on Sunday was just one gut punch after another. He committed six outs over four trips to the plate, and that doesn't even capture how problematic his day actually was. Drilling down:

  • He grounded into two double plays with runners on first and second. Pierre isn't supposed to ground into double plays.
  • He was picked off the only time he reached base. Pierre isn't supposed to lose outs on the basepaths.
  • He blew two bunts with a runner on third, including one true squeeze attempt, before grounding out and freezing Omar Vizquel at third. Pierre is supposed to be able to bunt.

Even the routine flyball that ended the eighth inning proved to be adventure. Hawk Harrelson identified the play as a "can of corn ... hopefully." On Twitter, Mark Gonzales said Pierre "called for the fair catch."

At this point, Ozzie Guillen might be the only guy who has faith in Juan Pierre. And that includes Juan Pierre.

Star-divide

Guillen went to bat for the guy nobody wants to see come to the plate after Sunday's game:

"One thing about Juan, you’re going to see the same one tomorrow," manager Ozzie Guillen said. "He’s going to go out and play the game, and play the game right. When you play every day, you’re going to go through a tough time. He’ll be there batting first again. I don’t worry about him because he’s a professional. He will battle. That’s not the first time he’s gone through it and he will find a way."

Now, when it comes to struggling players, there's only so much Guillen can say. Look at how he talked about A.J. Pierzynski's throwing woes -- he could place the blame squarely on Pierzynski, but whom would that benefit? Immanuel Kant, maybe, but he's been dead for a couple hundred years.

This particular defense of Pierre runs the risk of being drastically tone-deaf, especially since the White Sox begin a homestand tonight and Guillen is aware of how poorly his team has played in front of its fans. I mean...

  • "You're going to see the same one tomorrow." That's been the problem.
  • "He's going to play the game right." He has played the game the absolute wrong way in most respects.
  • "That's not the first time he's gone through it." He's made plenty of outs before, but I doubt his core competencies have collapsed all at the same time.

It's frustrating on a number of levels, mostly because if Pierre were a rookie, Guillen probably would have lit into him at least once this season. Certain veterans have a cache of respect, and Pierre is using his to its fullest extent.

Even though Guillen remains adamant in his support, I have the feeling this homestand could change things if things don't change.

Star-divide

When it comes to paying White Sox fans, Pierre's reserves of respect ran dry long ago. They let him hear Bronx cheers for every routine play after his cluster of early-season Pierrors, and they can't even muster fake enthusiasm for anything he does at the plate. Pierre's work ethic and preparation mean less and less as the games go by.

Even though I respect Pierre the person, he can only be judged on results right now. The Sox are paying him $5 million to be the least productive player in the league, and he's failing at the fundamentals in all three facets of the game. And there he is, getting more opportunities to come to the plate than anybody else on the team.

The situation reminds me of the ill-fated Dewayne Wise: Leadoff Man pilot in the 2009 season. Wise was booed on Opening Day for botching two sacrifice bunt attempts, and booed even louder the following day, when he popped up another bunt attempt and later struck out.

The outpouring of dissatisfaction was surprising in its ferocity. Nothing about Wise seemed eminently disdainful. In fact, he had made the most of his big opportunity the previous season, and he played well in the postseason. Usually, crowds place too much faith in the immediately productive journeyman, because the average fan doesn't pay that much attention to minor-league track records.

Not this time. For whatever reason, White Sox fans knew that Wise wasn't what a leadoff man looked like, and they let Wise and Guillen know it the moment he faltered. Guillen put him out of harm's way after that second game, dropping him from first to eighth in the order. The negative energy simply benefited nobody.

If Pierre can't get out of his crevasse ("rut" seems like a vast understatement) at home, we could see Guillen change his mind fairly quickly. Everybody is waiting for him to fail, and he has no margin for error. Even coming up short on difficult plays will be held against him, because he's not making up for the routine plays he botched earlier.

Star-divide

Here's my burning question: How would Guillen have responded if Pierre had put on his Sunday Spectacular at U.S. Cellular Field instead of Overstock.com (still makes me laugh) Coliseum?

Really, he couldn't have arranged his day any better in terms of pissing off a crowd. He greeted the fans with a friendly handshake (the leadoff single) masking a joy buzzer (the pickoff). Throw in two double plays, two missed bunts, and a failure to score a runner on third, and by the end, you could eat the contempt with a fork. It would be that thick.

After hearing the public sentiment, could Guillen go to the media and tell the fans, "You're going to see the same one tomorrow," and say it as if it were a good thing? Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think his defense would be nearly as reassuring.

Mark Teahen's status clouds the picture further. Right now, the only saving grace for Pierre is the lack of a surefire improvement. Amazingly, nobody on the 25-man roster guarantees an upgrade, sadly.

That could change today, should Teahen's strained oblique force him to the disabled list. Presumptively, Dayan Viciedo would take Teahen's place, finally giving Guillen a dynamic corner outfield option to take some of Pierre's playing time. The fans will let him know it, too. Could Guillen continue to turn a blind eye to Pierre's siphoning effect, with so much evidence to the contrary?

Maybe I'm placing too much faith in Guillen, but I think the Cell's unfriendly confines could change his tune if Pierre's production holds at its current level.

Ironically, if the worst-case scenario continues to play out, Pierre might not have to worry about being his team's biggest liability, because his manager would be fighting him for the title.

Star-divide

Making six outs in four at-bats -- including a pair of double plays with a runner in scoring position -- only resulted in Pierre's third-worst game according to Win Probability Added.

If you're unfamiliar with WPA, it basically measures what a player brings to/takes off the table in a given game, with more weight given to clutch situations.

So in which games did Pierre fare the worst?

  1. April 17: Pierre goes 0-for-5 with six left on base. Flying out with the bases loaded to end the game really hurt.
  2. May 4: Once again, Pierre ended the game with a flyout, but there were only two on this time. He did go 1-for-5, but he was picked off after reaching to start the game.
  3. Sunday.

Comment 210 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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I feel bad for him

Hes a very likeable guy. I hope for his sake and ours that he can improve

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC
It's like trying to sneak the sun past the rooster. - Hawk Harrelson

by blackoutsox on May 16, 2011 3:11 AM CDT reply actions  

i like him too.

he needs a couple of days off to clear his head- guillen won’t give them to him though.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on May 16, 2011 6:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

the way he goes after fly balls

he is thinking “shit i’m going to drop this one”!

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on May 16, 2011 6:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

I do not like him

not because he is not likeale but because I cannot think of a starting LFer with a worse OPS. Without speed and defense, he is useless. I would love him if he were a middle infielder.

by ibom on May 16, 2011 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

a list of LFers with OPS currently lower than Juan Pierre

carl crawford, austin kearns, delmon young, vernon wells (though now injured), jerry sands.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on May 16, 2011 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

I am now officially off the Jerry Sands bandwagon.

FJSITA.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

sands' crew sans wu.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on May 16, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

The thing is

OPS doesn’t even fully account for how bad Juan Pierre has been because his OBP is misleading. OBP doesn’t show his ~10 outs on the basepaths.

by Pumpkin McPastry on May 16, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

i used the metric that ibom requested

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on May 16, 2011 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Excellent Caddyshack reference in the opening paragraph.

Great read on top of that, too.

It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.

by SonOfCron on May 16, 2011 4:07 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd for the Immanuel Kant reference.

And the joy buzzer analogy. Very creative piece, sir.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 6:50 AM CDT reply actions  

At some point even Guillen will realize that starting Pierre everyday

is just not in the best interest of the team. It will probably start with a demotion from the lead off spot.

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 16, 2011 7:17 AM CDT reply actions  

he knows what's at stake with the all-in strategy and he's adapted when necessary

6th man rotation, bullpen by committee more-or-less, and hopefully with the swisher experiment v2.0

who would you like to see at the top of the order?

over the last couple weeks, che’s and rios’ obp has been acceptable (.358 and 0.333, respectively) so i was thinking che rios dunn kong q aj becks pierre morel/visquel

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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 7:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind some combination

of Che, Becks and Omar (when he’s playing). Becks May line is .297/.357/.459 If he can put together a couple more solid weeks I’d like to see him back up there. Between those 3 that’s fine for the top 2 spots.

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 16, 2011 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't use arbitrary dates!

;-)

now i feel highly umkempt - pierzynskirules

by RWShow on May 16, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

As dumb as it may sound

Lillibridge gives you all of the mythical positives of Pierre, with the added bonus of him actually hitting from time to time.

If I suddenly found myself wearing the #13 jersey, I would probably start Omar and Lillibridge.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on May 16, 2011 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

true

and that he seems to believe that he has done enough for the Sox with the bat, right now.

Somebody ought to be dividing time with Pierre, right now, and at least bridge can play catch the ball.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on May 16, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

bridge is a plus baserunner, too.

so he’s got that going for him, which is nice.

We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - Grinder in Training

by Shoeless In SC on May 16, 2011 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or just go a step further and have Dunn lead off

But more realistically, yeah, Ramirez and Rios are probably roughly equal here.

optimized lineup based on current season stats

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on May 16, 2011 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

realistically is the operative word :)

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's why Rock Raines is not in the Hall.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

isn't ricky all-time leader in leadoff homeruns?

well, tim will soon be inducted into the HOF, i hope…

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

He was not unanimous.

Too many leadoff dingers.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 10:43 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

last season

he got demoted to #9 for the yankee series at the end of april/early may. his OPS was like .450 at that point.

by larry on May 16, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

OK, if not Juan who?

That’s the question. There doesn’t seem to be anyone else in the organization to fill the lead-off spot. I don’t believe any other team would trade away a quality lead-off man. That Swisher lead-off deal really worked out well now didn’t it. What’s worrisome is Juan is not even near is lifetime stats.
Our minor league system sucks.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on May 16, 2011 8:21 AM CDT reply actions  

I think you have to go with a "non-traditional" lead-off man

The kind of lead-off man that does not steal bases or bunt for hits. This will inevitably make our team better, that is, unless Guillen insists on treating this “non-traditional” leadoff hitter like Juan Pierre.

by Rhubarb on May 16, 2011 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

.643 ops is ideal.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on May 16, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

swish flat out sucked, FNS

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

He had a .354 OBP batting first

He probably wasn’t the ideal but I liked that Ozzie tried it.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on May 16, 2011 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

*in 2008

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on May 16, 2011 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lead-off man isn't a position

After the 1st inning he isn’t guaranteed to lead-off ever again. It’s completely arbitrary and draconian to act like you need a specific type of player to lead off. At this point you can find pretty much anybody who would be an upgrade.

by Pumpkin McPastry on May 16, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why do you say that? You need the speed, stolen bases, ability to bunt for a hit.

You need a type like Pods or a performing JP.

Everybody here knows that, why don’t you?

Beware the cure isn't worse than the disease

by Chiburb on May 16, 2011 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not sure why you replied to me as I'm one of the anti-leadoff hitter people

But Swisher had one of the team’s better OBPs early in the 2008 season, it made sense to put him high in the order where he would get lots of PAs and where guys with power could drive him in. Sure it’s a trivial difference but if we’re going to do a whole thread about lineup optimization…

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on May 16, 2011 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here is a list of players I would prefer to have lead off over Juan Pierre:

1. Beckham
2. Rios
3. Ramirez
4. Lillibridge
5. Vizquel
6. Dunn
7. Konerko
8. Morel
9. Quentin
10. Viciedo
11. Castro
12. Teahan
13. AJ
14. Jerry Owens

by joewho112 on May 16, 2011 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nah

Teahan actually will take a pitch or two. I can understand him leading off against a high school team or something… AJ though?

by Otter7 on May 16, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

You were not

you are openly lobbying for Jerry Owens to lead off for the White Sox.

Why do you hate the White Sox and their fans?

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on May 16, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

hahahaha

this is great.

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on May 16, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

No I got the sarcasim

I guess I was just being ironic.

by Otter7 on May 16, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

this!

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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Please show me

when and where a non traditional lead-off man has been successful? From joewho112’s list #7 Konerko – Oh that’s right he stole a base the other night. A good OBP and a little speed should at least be a minimal requirement.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on May 16, 2011 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

oh boy

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Who would be your #7 on the Sox roster?

Also when has a non-traditional leadoff man ever been used?

by joewho112 on May 16, 2011 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

A non-traditional lead-off man is an advanced stat geeks wet dream. It is MY wet dream.

Because of this team’s make up we could end up changing the course of baseball as we know it. 6 man rotation, “non-traditional” leadoff man and fungible bullpen roles. White Sox should consider this an opportunity to experiment. Hit Rios or Dunn at leadoff.

by Rhubarb on May 16, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the idea you're trying to get at is high OBP

Rios doesn’t really fit that description. Dunn does, although a guy who hits homers should go lower in the order to have high OBP guys in front of him. So we’re looking for high OBP, but probably a low SLG or HR rate. The last guy who fit that description that I can think of is Scotty Pods, who had around a .350 OBP in his better years with us, and (obviously) little power. From a stat guy perspective, his base stealing ability wasn’t what made him a good leadoff man, it was just a bonus.

"Insert witty Ozzie quote here"

by Sox102605 on May 16, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

no one is suggesting konerko leadoff.

good lord.

the 2010 rays were pretty “non traditional”.

by larry on May 16, 2011 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

from above by joewho112

Here is a list of players I would prefer to have lead off over Juan Pierre:

1. Beckham
2. Rios
3. Ramirez
4. Lillibridge
5. Vizquel
6. Dunn
7. Konerko
8. Morel
9. Quentin
10. Viciedo
11. Castro
12. Teahan
13. AJ
14. Jerry Owens

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on May 16, 2011 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

if we got to #7, it means that we should probably start talking about 2012

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Duh!

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on May 16, 2011 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

You had to be there

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on May 16, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

this made me laugh, even if it's not the most laughable comment you've made here today.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on May 16, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Plus

when the king of snark misses snark it’s really sad.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on May 16, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

this article cites the book

but i think it summarizes obp perspective pretty well

link

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

nice link - thanks

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on May 16, 2011 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Green

Beware the cure isn't worse than the disease

by Chiburb on May 16, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Pierre had 406 plate appearanaces in '08

and 425 in ’08. Last year he was back to full-time with 735. Is it possible that so much playing time last year really took its toll?

by metasox on May 16, 2011 8:22 AM CDT reply actions  

its just baseball

2011 WhiteSox Baseball: we're all in

by OznCoop on May 16, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

may just be father time, not playing time, that's the problem.

one thing that’s problematic for juan is that the white sox, as a team, have faced more fastballs this year than is usual. probably relates to the pitchers they’ve faced and not a change in approach from pitchers, considering good fastball hitters like konerko also have seen more fastballs. but pierre isn’t a good fastball hitter, so that will depress his numbers more than usual.

by larry on May 16, 2011 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

i should add,

since i haven’t looked deeply into this, that it’s always possible that it’s some pitch misclassification issue, too. something worth further research in any event.

by larry on May 16, 2011 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I wonder.

Hearing that David Price threw 90% fastballs in his last outing at least makes me perk up when hearing about pitching philosophy. Nolan Ryan seems to be gaining popularity re: work/innings. I know he’s a big fastball guy.

Don’t know how to research it, but it would be interesting if the Sox are soft-tossing more vs. the rest of the league, and if the FB% has increased for the rest of the league.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting

becuase I would not suspect teams would believe they could be successful with regime of majority fast balls against this White Sox team.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on May 16, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

there is always scott podsednik.

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on May 16, 2011 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

you left out his adorable mustache

I really wish he would have broken his hand, never pitched again, then got AIDS when a pack of AIDS-wolves kidnapped and wolf-raped him. -tasteefreeze

by e-gus on May 16, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

we will have to suffer without it.

I, for one, need never be tickled by it again.

"I kind of thought it was a Pussy Pitch" - Kenwo, on the changeup

by DrEmilioLizardo on May 16, 2011 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

again?!

AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 16, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who wants a mustache ride?

now i feel highly umkempt - pierzynskirules

by RWShow on May 16, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

and there it is

shave the porn stache & increase the speed. He could shave milliseconds from getting picked off when on base!

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

by lastof12 on May 16, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

larry!!!!!

you have come around on pierre being bad, nice 180

by Knoxfire30 on May 16, 2011 9:52 AM CDT reply actions  

going through the search engine

and i’m not sure where this 180 is coming from?

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Its not like the guys track record didn't warrant confidence in him

I defended him for quite some time, thinking he would turn it around. He most likely isn’t this bad of a player, but who knows at this point? Anyways most of us here didn’t think this would happen and if you thought he was going to be this bad before the season started than you should be working in baseball. I was concerned about the guy, knew that he had the potential to have a rough year, but this is way worse than I could have imagined.

Its very easily to sit and play armchair manager.

by 815Sox on May 16, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

track record

he did get benched years ago

by Knoxfire30 on May 16, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

He unretired?

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 10:45 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

not about line-up contruction, rather there are some who still treat lead-off as a position

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 16, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Here is my list of who I would rather leadoff instead of JP:

1- Rhubarb
2-Colin
3-HSA
4-T-dogg
5-Egus
6-Ugod
7-Hoodie
8-WTGTD
9-Kenwo

"I kind of thought it was a Pussy Pitch" - Kenwo, on the changeup

by DrEmilioLizardo on May 16, 2011 9:58 AM CDT reply actions  

they are all over rated

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on May 16, 2011 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

you are just bitter, mr greenwithenvy.

"I kind of thought it was a Pussy Pitch" - Kenwo, on the changeup

by DrEmilioLizardo on May 16, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

not sure he could hit a fastball either

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on May 16, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

and, scene.

"I kind of thought it was a Pussy Pitch" - Kenwo, on the changeup

by DrEmilioLizardo on May 16, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

what do they call that thing where you get like 30 more seconds of a show before the next one starts?

thats what this is.

i can hit a fastball.
a good curve is what gave me the fits.

I really wish he would have broken his hand, never pitched again, then got AIDS when a pack of AIDS-wolves kidnapped and wolf-raped him. -tasteefreeze

by e-gus on May 16, 2011 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I hit from the left-side and have a plus right-arm.

I am 3B by trade but so is Teahen and Viciedo. It has been since sophomore year in high school since I have manned the outfieldd but it is like riding a bike isn’t it?

by Rhubarb on May 16, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

can you turn on 'beast mode'?

i saw a mlb article yesterday that suggested bautista had attained that state and had to laugh at the comparison unintentionally drawn between him and podsnoir.

by craigws on May 16, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

I can go batshit crazy.

by Rhubarb on May 16, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

No WU?

I guess he’s more of a 2-hole hitter.

We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - Grinder in Training

by Shoeless In SC on May 16, 2011 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lizardo gives no props

for those of us who are “grindy”.

Oh, and larry’s not mentioned, either. Nor the Boss.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

5 hole.

now i feel highly umkempt - pierzynskirules

by RWShow on May 16, 2011 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

to both of you.

am I the only one who thinks 2-hole is funny in a elementary school kind of way? I feel like I’ve made comments about the 2-hole before to no reply. Is that joke at that level in which jokes are simply too base and childish to be funny?

We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - Grinder in Training

by Shoeless In SC on May 16, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you have to ask about the two-hole, you can't afford it.

"Analogous caliber is attainable and transcendence is not something of myth." -Rhubarb

by Uribe Down on May 16, 2011 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

First rule of 2-hole:

Well, you know.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 17, 2011 7:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

i don't play unless i'm cleanup.

kenWposada.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on May 16, 2011 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Counterpoint:

If Juan’s leading off it gives him fewer double plays to ground into.

by Shinons* on May 16, 2011 10:01 AM CDT reply actions  

You could make the same argument for anyone

If I led off I would ground into fewer DPs than if I batted 5th. Doesn’t mean I should be leading off for the Chicago White Sox.

Besides, JP’s speed means he doesn’t GIDP often

"Insert witty Ozzie quote here"

by Sox102605 on May 16, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

When you're newer, it's tough to get the benefit of the doubt..

Especially with some of the other posts in this thread, you can’t be surprised people thought you were serious. It’s a shame you got thrown in with that group, just haven’t built up a reputation of rational posts yet to make the the sarcasm obvious.

by Grinder in Training on May 16, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

try using the word 'clearly' to clue us in until we get used to you.

as in: Clearly, your sarcasm stands out to all as a shining beacon of snark for all to appreciate.

"I kind of thought it was a Pussy Pitch" - Kenwo, on the changeup

by DrEmilioLizardo on May 16, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Will do

Practice: Clearly, Juan’s base-stealing hasn’t fallen off this season, he’s just been the victim of some perfect throws. Can’t do anything there but tip your cap.

by Shinons* on May 16, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wait, how many rational posts are required?

I’m pretty sure some of our veterans haven’t met their quotas.

now i feel highly umkempt - pierzynskirules

by RWShow on May 16, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Since I am not a veteran, I am going to presume that you do not speak of me.

Although my rational to irrational percentage is weighed down by the latter.

by Rhubarb on May 16, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

July 09? You're no rookie!

now i feel highly umkempt - pierzynskirules

by RWShow on May 16, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

In July 2009 I dislikes basecloggers, larry handed me a new asshole and I didn't post again until January 2010.

Even then I wasn’t semi-integrated into discussion until I had a post that was well regarded in August 2010. Look in the mirror and be ashamed!

by Rhubarb on May 16, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I recall some early-on Jim Thome hating from you.

I prefer to remember only the good!

now i feel highly umkempt - pierzynskirules

by RWShow on May 16, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

JESJMF.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

the joke's on you

i’ve been dead serious 100% of the time!

by Trooper on May 16, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Al Yellon Update:

Declares Saturday’s Cubs game

played in perhaps the worst conditions an official game has ever been played at Wrigley Field

Then writes a parody song from a tribute song written for one of the Great Lakes worst disasters:

The legend lives on from Cap Anson on down
Of the baseball team we call the Cubs
The Cubs, it is said, don’t win titles any more
Ere the skies of November turn gloomy
Long ago this old team used to win it all
In recent years, though, have come up empty.
Its good fans, all true, keep hoping for wins
But the gales of November come early.

by 815Sox on May 16, 2011 10:38 AM CDT reply actions  

in recent years?

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on May 16, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Al is really old.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 10:46 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I envision him as Grandpa Al on the Munsters...

Herman, come down here and look at the dumb crap I wrote! Isnt it wonderful?

"I kind of thought it was a Pussy Pitch" - Kenwo, on the changeup

by DrEmilioLizardo on May 16, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm just trying to imagine someone signing it

And the bodies of the 29 sailors lost spinning wherever they are… seems pretty petty to write a song about the suffering cubs fan when compared to the original content of the song.

by 815Sox on May 16, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Al Yellonz sources must be telling him something
Lake Michigan rolls rough, the wind blows in
Seemingly all season long.
Tom Ricketts brings in a young man’s dreams
With Castro and Barney there’s new hope.
And farther below the Cardinals
And Reds and Brewers give rivalry
As patiently we wait, for free agent Albert
Who’ll give us some thrills to remember!

The Hendry Hug continues to rock BCB nation

by 815Sox on May 16, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Did he actually do the whole song?

I would think that time spent converting a song to Cubby-joke is time not spent combing BCB for swear words or unrelated content.

Priorities.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on May 16, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ozzie tweet - Keep going bulls

Anyone benefiting from this Bulls run more than the White Sox? (I guess the Cubs are kind of playing like crap too, but not sure their fans are upset, considering their expectations going in).

by Grinder in Training on May 16, 2011 10:51 AM CDT reply actions  

Hawks won last year, Bears had a good run, Bulls are doing quite well

If either the sox or cubs could pick it up, we’d have a great sports town.

"Insert witty Ozzie quote here"

by Sox102605 on May 16, 2011 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

We won the world series 6 years ago

And both the Cubs and White Sox were recently in the playoffs. I’m not saying I’m satisfied, but it’s not like the baseball teams haven’t held their own.

by Grinder in Training on May 16, 2011 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Decent point

But neither of them have been in 3 years and they both lost in the first round

"Insert witty Ozzie quote here"

by Sox102605 on May 16, 2011 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Much like last year

The Sox getting the suck out of the way while everyone isn’t paying attention. Just wait until the middle of June… they’ll win 19 of 20 again. I may not always agree with Ozzie’s decisions, but he sure knows how to work the media.

by Otter7 on May 16, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I do not like JP again

C’mon, U-God, you know better.

I am talking about average, over-years OPS. JP’s current OPS is below his average but not by a whole lot. Look at carl crawford, austin kearns, delmon young, vernon wells. They are all in a dip and their historical average OPS is much higher than the current one. Jerry sands? Are you serious? I do not care how much he is hyped. He is only a rookie. He only costs LA some dimes and I could care less how he plays out. The only thing justifying JP’s stats is his salary (except the fact that we may not have a better internal LFer candidate.) He does not cost us too much bust still much more than a Jerry sands.

by ibom on May 16, 2011 11:00 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Why?

As long as discussions are initiated, I do not see it as a failure. I could be wrong but please point it out.

by ibom on May 16, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

there's a reply button. it's good to use.

i had no idea what you were replying to. i had to click ‘page up’ ten times to find it.

by larry on May 16, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Very good point, tx.

I did reply from the post referred. However, after logging in from there, it got dropped down to the bottom. I guess I have to come back more often to post on this board to be familiar with it.

by ibom on May 16, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

it annoys me when people say

that they could care less about something when they mean to say that they couldn’t care less.

btw, what does this mean?

The only thing justifying JP’s stats is his salary

I will await your response at the bottom of this thread.

We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - Grinder in Training

by Shoeless In SC on May 16, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

yup. he is suggesting that all though he could care less,

he could be caring less from a position of caring a hell of a lot more than anyone else. a wide-range of caring less options are available to him.

by craigws on May 16, 2011 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

asploded. my head.

We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - Grinder in Training

by Shoeless In SC on May 16, 2011 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

you've just joined today

how would i know what you mean.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on May 16, 2011 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

jose bautista

in his last 162 games, he’s hit 64 home runs. no one else has more than 42.

he’s been worth 3.9 WAR already this season.

by larry on May 16, 2011 11:12 AM CDT reply actions  

My guess

is he’s doing the same PEDs that Pujols has been doing. And they’re the only two to discover these PEDs.

If that isn’t the case, then alien that was living in Kurt Warner has moved into Bautista’s body.

by Otter7 on May 16, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps he travelled back in time, and injected Willie Mays' semen into his fathers' testicles

Of course, he had to get rid of his father’s previous girlfriends, and keep him from beating off…

Wow, this nonsensical comment business is harder than I thought.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on May 16, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

That should really but a dent in the Indians

He was having a great year. Of course the Tigers are playing great right now, which is the bigger concern. Sox need to keep doing what they are doing, a nice win streak would be good right now too.

by 815Sox on May 16, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Brantley is doing a good job filling in

We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - Grinder in Training

by Shoeless In SC on May 16, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

well he'll start regardless whether in center or left

this is more likely to mean more… Austin Kearns I guess?

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on May 16, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

true. Kearns or the newly recalled Travis Buck.

Pick your poison. If the prognosis on Sizemore isn’t good, then I can’t imagine the Indians standing pat with Kearns/Buck.

We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - Grinder in Training

by Shoeless In SC on May 16, 2011 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pierre vs Crawford

So Juan is worth negative 5.5 million… so he’s $11m over paid. Crawford is $23.25m over paid… so I guess most of this post has to be redacted.

by Otter7 on May 16, 2011 11:54 AM CDT reply actions  

take notes, tasteefreeze.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on May 16, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have been

you will all be featured prominently in my tell-all memoirs.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on May 16, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

are you trying to make my brain melt?

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC
It's like trying to sneak the sun past the rooster. - Hawk Harrelson

by blackoutsox on May 16, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pods watch

What’s the timetable for Pods to get signed to a minor league deal, OPS .400 for two weeks at Charlotte and take over for Pierre? Sadly, he’s been the Sox only productive leadoff hitter over the past decade. And he can’t seem to succeed anywhere else so he is once again available.

by Wayne Nordhagen on May 16, 2011 12:12 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree.

Mitch Daniels will feel better, as the Sox will have married Pods three times, besting Mitch and Cindi by one.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh my God. He's not signed elsewhere?

Fuck, this is gonna happen.

now i feel highly umkempt - pierzynskirules

by RWShow on May 16, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is exceptional.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Somebody needs to convince him that the baseball is racism

and the bat is justice.

Except when he’s fielding. Then the ball’s everlasting love, and the opposing baserunners are hatred that needs to be stopped.

He can write it all on his palm.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on May 16, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did you or anyone else catch butt cancer from Cheat?

I’ll wait.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pre-Too Soon

Or something like that…

by Otter7 on May 16, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

can i compare juan to lou gehrig?

precipitous ‘power’ drop-off, inability to square up to the ball, previously fine defense faltering, slowed reaction time..

by craigws on May 16, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

No.

He’s the luckiest man on the face of the oyth.

And despite his prodigious, powerful display,Battling loneliness, rage, misery
There really isn’t much else left to say.

by winningugly on May 16, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

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