White Sox should invest time in Humber
Phil Humber completed his second month as a member of the White Sox rotation, and he capped it off by pitching deeper into a major-league ballgame than he ever had before. He allowed just one run over 7 2/3 innings against Toronto on Thursday, and in the process, he bolstered his lead in some pretty important stat categories.
Among White Sox starters, he ranks first in ERA (2.85), WHIP (0.93), BAA (.195) and walks per nine innings (1.95). But even though he's leading the field, Humber may be first in line to head to the bullpen when the six-man rotation breaks up, based on his prior bullpen experience:
"We have to know if this guy can pitch out of the bullpen, how long it will take to get loose," manager Ozzie Guillen said. "There are so many things to go over with [pitching coach Don Cooper] to see about who is the best guy to go there. If Humber has to go there, that’s the way it is. We talk about a few players."
The line of thinking makes sense, but I'd hope the Sox would avoid that route. Humber may not have much of a track record, and some will reject him as a paper lion (he has a .210 BABIP, and his xFIP is over 4.00), so there is logic behind quitting while he's ahead.
But here's my counter: He's cheap, and the same economics that could force him out of the rotation are the same ones that should keep him in the fold.
The White Sox have paid a premium on starting pitchers ever since they won the 2005 World Series. Kenny Williams reupped both Jon Garland and Jose Contreras, he chose Javier Vazquez over Brandon McCarthy, and later Edwin Jackson over Daniel Hudson. Now, his rotation is up to $50 million, and he's not getting his money's worth.
Humber fell into Williams' lap, and unlike Hudson, he's hitting the ground running. That's about the only way a young pitcher can really remain in the picture with the current management, so the conditions should be noted.
Whether he can continue to succeed is up for debate -- his peripherals say "not so fast," whereas Humber's all like, "Hell yeah!" -- but I'd like to see him ensure that he's answered the question to the best of his ability. With one rotation spot opening up (and maybe a second if the Sox bid farewell to Mark Buehrle), the Sox need a replacement, and an inexpensive option would be an awesome change of pace.
If this week proceeds like the ones before, I'd be tempted to stick with the six-man rotation. At this moment, there is no predictable step down from one start to another, thus no discernable disadvantage (save John Danks' schneid-related anxiety) to staying the course.
Problem is, the Sox might be one reliever short for Guillen's taste. With a six-man bullpen (at least one with a LOOGY), there's really one room for one garbage man. Guillen is keeping both Tony Pena and Chris Sale away from almost all important situations, and that's one too many. Sure, Sale might be better than his numbers indicate, but he's not giving Guillen reason to believe in him any more than he was three weeks ago.
It'd be great if the Sox could demote Sale to Charlotte and just let him work on whatever he needs to, but there's no natural replacement that would improve the situation. Either way, the Sox are going to feel the need for another body in the bullpen, and Humber may draw the short straw. But I'd at least wait until one reliever is far too overworked before making any changes. That hasn't been the case so far, and with actual off days on the June schedule, the Sox might be able to continue shorthanded in the bullpen for longer than they originally thought.
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BuehrleMan the latest sss commenter quoted in usa today sports weekly
this comment was quoted with this byline:
BuehrleMan on southsidesox.com, pondering signs of a possible White Sox resurgence.
link?
I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.
by thatshortkid on May 27, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
You're gonna be a big star kid.
Beer, it’s just a vehicle for my favorite drug, the celery for my peanut butter.
-Grinder in Training
by South Side Expat on May 27, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
theres no link, its in actual newsprint
USA Today publishes ‘Sports weekly’, it comes out on Wednesday, and should still be on the news stand.
About a month ago they started adding a region specific cover and small pullout section.
Q! is on the cover to this one.
In the Chicago EXTRA section, they have a Hot Topics Q and A with one of our sports talk radio guys, and then down the right margin are random chicago sports related quotes from all over. kenwo and one al yellon were featured a few weeks ago.
This week, the second appearance from sss showed up, and it was BM.
what were the kenwo and al ones?
I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC
what on earth does it have me saying?
my only comment in the thread you linked to was about driving through a vicious storm then referring (obliquely), as i often do, to the fact that going into this season konerko had swung at only one 3-0 pitch since 2007.
on a scale of 0-10, not quite sure exactly how disheartened i am.
Two-time All-Star?
Sweet.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Humber is my Hombre
What?! I ain't no Professor Pickles!
by 67WMAQ on May 27, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Yep, pretty much
He’s caught lightening in a bottle. Let’s ride him until he flops. Peripherals suggest this to be the case. Somehow get Sale to Charlotte and get him stretched out to possibly start of there is an injury later in the year. Then look at trading a starter if Humber keeps this up. Bring up Infante for the bullpen.
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on May 27, 2011 1:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
"Peripherals suggest this to be the case"
To be what case? I keep reading this. Again his regression numbers this year are pretty dang good. He’s a third of the way thru the season. Maybe he tires from innings but I wouldn’t start placing bets on some sort of epic flop this year. Jackson can learn a lot. Stop walking people.
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
Seconding Infante for the bullpen.
by Pumpkin McPastry on May 28, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Remember the Lastings Experience at the start of the season?
They once thought they could get away with a “short” bullpen. Why couldn’t they think it again?
NISFW (now it's safe for work!)
I don't get the disconect between the 'all in' slogan and the actual actions.
If you’re all in, Viciedo is up here and Pierre’s on the bench (or lately, Dunn), while Humber goes to the pen and Sale is off to Charlotte to get right. Fine, maybe I’m baseball retarded, but I agree with moving Humber to the pen before his BABIP explodes back to normal.
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 27, 2011 11:07 AM CDT reply actions
Sadly this is not true for all professional sports organizations
See: Bills, Buffalo. /tries to cry, but no tears are forthcoming
Since you're telling me and not asking me, I guess I am (now).
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 27, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Are you telling me that no one was in danger of dying in 2005?
It was then I realized vegans can’t be trusted
by Scotty Ballgame on May 27, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You mean Viciedo?
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 27, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh. he doesn't have to do anything; I've been really impressed (and greatful) for
his performance. But i don’t expect it to continue and think Sale’s struggles and his (H’s) success together make moving Sale down and Humber to the pen the best thing to do.
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 27, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd ride with the 6 man for now.
Its rare and by the book probably doesn’t make sense but dude just shouldn’t come out of the rotation right now. Hell his starts are getting BETTER. He doesn’t walk anybody and even his regression numbers look good for now. Humber has fucked this up royally.
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
"Stop being far, far better than your peers and previous expectations, damnit!"
lol
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 27, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
but in a good way.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
This is debatable
Now, his rotation is up to $50 million, and he’s not getting his money’s worth.
Assuming $4.5 mil per WAR, that means the starters need to produce 11.2 WAR to justify their salaries. Thus far, according to Fangraphs, the Sox starters, excluding Humber, have produced 4.3 WAR. So they are on pace to exceed 11.2 WAR.
This space is available.
I forgot to include Buehrle so it's actually 5.5 WAR so far.
This space is available.
Not a huge fan of pitcher WAR
Especially when it says Edwin Jackson is just as valuable as anybody thus far.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
so what exactly IS Jackson's win contribution so far?
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
he threw a good game against tampa
by hoodlight on May 27, 2011 12:12 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't think in terms of win contribution.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions
what other terms are there?
even if you don’t buy the metrics, at the end of the day a pitcher along with his defense is contributing some number of wins to his team or he isn’t.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
Abstract terms
I could say 0.8 wins because it sounds about right, but I’d rather talk through it than try to sum it up in a number that doesn’t mean a lot to me.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
how are wins abstract?
wins are concrete, that’s why i like dealing in them. what is the likely effect of adding or subtracting a player going to be? that’s fundamentally what i want to know. i’m willing to accept that there is variance involved, but again, that’s also concrete. we’re still talking about actual performance fluctuating around some mean number of actual wins.
i’m not saying you have to discuss it in those terms, but fundamentally that’s what it should come back to.
incidentally, .8 leaves him as about average as a starter. that’s what you think of him? and from what it sounds like that’s about what you think of Humber?
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
They aren't abstract
You asked what other terms there were, and I was saying I prefer abstract terms — descriptions of performance (using some concrete numbers), rather than one number that tries to sum it all up.
But they are kind of nebulous. Jackson and Humber are achieving their disparate WARs in disparate ways, so trying to sum it up using one catch-all number both makes the discussion far less precise and far less interesting.
I guessed 1.4 wins for Humber, and the difference between him and Jackson puts me more in the bWAR camp. When it comes to “wins,” I weigh results more heavily, because going deeper into ballgames and allowing fewer runs is more conducive to winning. In that sense, Humber has been quite above average, and Jackson has been merely OK.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
ah i see
i was confused by your usage. i’d call it quantification vs. qualification perhaps? whatever though, i understand you now.
anyway, what i want to understand (and why i wrote what i did) is what counts as results? there is a huge BABIP difference between the two. are those results that you attribute entirely to their pitching? just mostly? etc.
the way i see it, there are the things the pitcher definitely controls, and then there are the things we have to debate what he controls. the stuff pitchers very much have control over are things that Edwin beats Humber at. the nebulous stuff is where Humber has to make up his ground so when you just say “results” you’re being over-general from my perspective.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
wait... are you contradicting yourself now?
the stuff pitchers very much have control over are things that Edwin beats Humber at.
except for line drives, though, right?
so the argument is basically coming down to the idea that Jackson has given up so many line drives (which he is totally responsible for)
16.1% compared to 24.1% is in favor of Humber
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
no.
one is what i actually think. and one is a hypothetical argument against what i actually think that still doesn’t show Humber is better, even though many think it does.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
ah, okay. you had me there for a second.
needs more clearly.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think Humber has necessarily earned the BABIP difference on his end...
But I don’t see Jackson’s BABIP as a “woe-is-me” case, either.
I’ve seen guys get just plain BABIPed before on both sides — Mark Buehrle couldn’t get any defensive support, whereas Gavin Floyd was charmed during a lot of hard contact.
Jackson’s getting smacked around when he misses, and I don’t think anything about Humber’s starts are remarkable, for better or for worse. Kinda Jon Garlandy that way, except with fewer grounders.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
he's some 20 points above his career average
there’s plenty of reason to think he’s had bad luck given his peripherals. meanwhile it’s the BABIP difference between the two that gives Humber his advantage. if he’s deserved a .300 BABIP, the advantage goes back to Jackson.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
Well, the BABIP gives him his advantage in theory.
But looking at what they’re throwing, I would also say that Humber’s arsenal is superior at this point. Jackson’s fastball has always been squareuppable, so his success hinges entirely on his slider, and it hasn’t been there.
So far this season, I would take Humber’s curve over Jackson’s slider, and Jackson doesn’t have much else. As a result, when I see a difference in how hittable they are, it makes a lot of sense to me.
By the way, don’t think I’m being dismissive. I think what you’re saying is valid, and absolutely so in “all things being equal” cases. I just don’t think things are equal right now.
Fun conversation.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 28, 2011 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions
heh, i feel paid attention to, keine sorgen.
but i don’t agree about the arsenal bit either. i think his slider’s been a bit off, but nothing terribly different from his past work.
and the fastball velocity diff is a huge equalizer:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/lose-a-tick-gain-a-tick/
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
and we sure as hell know that ain't true
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
is the argument seriously that Humber is doing something so incredible
with his balls in play (that is, by some manuever for which you deem him responsible he’s inducing a certain type of easily defended contact) that he’s actually better than Jackson? because you guys are arguing that he’s been better than Jackson, right? as in, for the things you think he’s responsible for, he’s been better?
let’s start by doing a FIP that ignores HR and just accounts for K and BB. by that metric, Jackson is better by .25 runs per 9. and let’s mention that the easiest batted balls to defend, pop ups and ground balls, go to Jackson’s favor. they’re tied in pop ups and Jackson gets far more ground balls, to the tune of 47% to 40%.
so the argument is basically coming down to the idea that Jackson has given up so many line drives (which he is totally responsible for) that everything else he’s done that’s better than Humber is not only canceled out but that he in fact cedes the advantage obviously to Humber. this even though it’s the case that he’s demonstrated better command/control during his tenure as a White Sox than he has over the course of his career, during which his LD% was 19% compared to the current 24%. oh and also that the stringer data determining LD vs. FB has been called into question repeatedly. but fine, it’s all in the line drives.
okay, well, it turns out that when you run a regression to determine the value of a line drive that every marginal LD is worth .39 earned runs. Jackson has given up 45 to Humber’s 30. if you pro-rate Jackson’s 45 to Humber’s batters faced and take the difference between Jackson’s LDs and Humber’s, you get about 4 runs in 60 IP.
that’s .6 per 9. that makes for a .35 per 9 difference in ERA overall in Humber’s favor, again having not included the massive difference in GB. that last clause is important, as it just so happens that if you take a FIP that includes only K, BB, GB and FB and you hold everything else equal except the GB and FB numbers, the difference is about .35 runs per 9.
in sum, feel free not to believe that Jackson is way better than Humber (as fWAR would have it). but you are also not free to be certain that Humber has somehow significantly outpitched Jackson. because even if every last line drive Jackson has given up is definitely his fault, the difference is nil. and if there’s any luck at all in LDs, the suggestion is that Jackson has pitched better. not by a significant margin of course, but i’m just responding to the idea that Humber has been absolutely and by a significant margin better than Jackson. the margins we’re talking about here are in the neighborhood of half a win per season.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
by colintj on May 27, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
Im not suggesting that he's pitched significantly better than Jackson
I can process everything you just wrote but again you are using primarily a predictive stat and equating it as actually production. This is no different than the goofs on Bless you Boys using FIP and xFIP to argue Max Sz’s production equaled Danks the previous 2.5 – 3 years. It’s no different than looking at Vazquez with his glossy saber numbers and saying what?
You seem to imply that everything is out of control of the player. I don’t agree with that.
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
then I have misread what colin and I have discussed for 2 weeks.
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
Lets get this straight
No one has pitched “significantly better” on the staff than anyone. Nobody has sucked.
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
3.75 ERA is about where this team has been as a staff then right?
you know what Jackson’s career ERA is? even if we assume the change in league ERA is entirely due to batters being relatively worse, that doesn’t wipe out Edwin’s improvement.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
it's not predictive. it's descriptive.
look at that K and BB link. 75% of runs allowed were explained by Ks and BBs in that (admittedly very large) sample. that’s backwards looking, not predictive of future performance.
so starting from there, it’s likely that Jackson’s performance in K’s and BB’s so far means that he actually pitched better than Humber. the only way for this not to be true is if the batted balls Humber ceded were significantly easier to field than Jackson. and indeed, we think he allowed a lot fewer line drives. those are very difficult to field. so i adjusted for that and that gave Humber the lead again. but then i adjusted for the remainder of the batted balls and they were in effect tied.
so either the average value of any batted ball for Jackson is much worse than Humber, a heretofore replacement level pitcher, or Jackson has been unlucky with his sequencing or getting unlucky with the actual location of those batted balls relative to defenders.
so let’s see what his FIP and ERA are up to. his FIP and ERA are barely divergent (3 runs per 200 IP) despite the fact he’s got a really shitty BABIP for his career, it seems reasonable to guess that he’s actually unlucky. that is to say, sequencing and BABIP to this point in his career have been worth 3 runs per 200 IP below average.
given that we’ve ruled out everything else, the best guess is that Jackson has been a victim of “hit ‘em where they ain’t” whereas Humber has not (and then some and then some and then some) and that that’s the primary difference between the two in terms of ERA to this point.
if to you that means they’ve still performed differently in a meaningful way, then we’ve got a different definition of meaningful.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
I'm not inclined to give Jackson any extra credit
Jackson went through four teams in three years, even though each team made a significant investment in him. Hell, it should have been five, but the Nationals backed out.
I’ve seen his games devolve into grinds because he can’t stop leaving his slider up and away (or high and tight). He has failed to complete six innings in half his starts in a low-scoring environment. I also saw him nearly get decapitated several times in Tampa.
Basically, there have been a lot of people in baseball who have seen Jackson from afar, thought he should be able to do more, and ultimately left them wanting. I get the same feeling watching him.
So when you go through great detail to show how much he’s underperforming his peripherals, it doesn’t convince me that he has a line of great starts on the way as much as it reinforces my notion, “Great, so he’s an underperformer.”
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Raises hand
I sure as hell looked at him from a distance and thought that. Felt like with Coop “this would all change”. Argued folks up and down against his predicted season stats and wagered a bottle of wine with that crook WU.
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
there's no extra credit
i’m saying that even if we start tacking on things that he’s not responsible for by traditional metrics (all batted balls), the runs allowed difference is massive. the only thing left to explain their different performance is actual luck, like a ground ball being an inch too far in one direction.
the only way for him to be not pitching better is to assume that the positive changes he’s made are only going to result in a much much higher BABIP than he’s had his entire career, when he had the same stuff but demonstrated worse command. Cooper has made him better than he’s been so far. the stats back it up.
you’re seeing a somewhat different pitcher than he’s been in the past and saying “he’s the same ol’ same ’ol” because of the issues you mention. those issues were WORSE in his previous stops! this is what happens when a guy who has no idea where it’s going develops some idea where it’s going. it’s still ugly.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
The problem is the clock is ticking
There’s no long-term benefit with trying to wait out Jackson. He’s not sticking around after the season. Plus, the team is in a hole, so enduring any growing pains won’t really pay off, unless he does it quickly.
Jackson’s not the only guy who might be a different pitcher. Humber’s a new man, too, and unlike Jackson, the Sox have more to gain by suffering through his struggles (whenever he actually struggles, that is).
I like the six-man rotation because there is a reasonable possibility that their fortunes will reverse, and I don’t see any downside in letting the situation resolve itself. But if I had to choose between Jackson and Humber … gaaaah, I’m leaning towards Humber, just because I don’t want to be yet another person burned by Jackson.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
i don't see why we can't keep the 6 man going
i don’t have anything against letting Don Cooper tell me when the Humber (or Jackson, honestly) experiment has failed. i don’t see it as if there are any growing pains to put up with of course and i do expect Humber to fall back to below average, but i still think Coop knows better than i do.
if one of the pitchers steps up and shows he’s significantly better than the rest, then we can start talking about actual costs of the 6 man. but if everyone’s the same, then there’s nothing lost.
i also like the idea of having one of the starters available in the pen, too, since by definition they’re better pitchers than the relievers. obviously there’s some role-adaptation to be dealt with, but i tend to think relievers by and large succeed/fail on stuff.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
Jackson gets 7% more GB's than Humber...
but FB’s are more often turned into outs.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
the average value of a GB to an offense is far less than the average value of a FB
when was the last time you saw a GB turn into a HR?
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
I know this.
But Humber, while allowing more FB’s and getting fewer GB’s, has also a lower HR/FB ratio (by 2%). Not allowing as many baserunners thru LD’s and walks has limited the damage when he has given up a HR.
So, while it’s nice to forecast how things will change in the future and regress, it’s important to look at how we’ve come to this point. When you’re getting more FB’s than someone else and allowing fewer HR’s than that person, you’re going to convert more outs AND you’re going to get hurt less often by HR’s, which is what has happened in this case. That Humber has allowed fewer base runners than Jackson is also important.
Humber has a sub 1.00 WHIP to Jackson’s 1.50.
So, let’s summarize. Jackson has:
1) allowed more base runners per inning
2) allowed more LDs
3) allowed more HRs per inning
4) allowed fewer FBs
5) induced more GBs
that, by and large, helps explain why Humber has prevented more runs from scoring.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
you're not understanding me if you think i'm predicting what will happen.
and i’ve already incorporated all those things you’re talking about in the FIPs i used.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
you adjusted for them?
can you show your work? (e-mail?)
If you’re not counting HR/FB, then you should. If you’re weighing GBs more heavily than FBs then Jackson will come out ahead, despite the fact that we know FBs, while leading to HRs, are easier to field and produce outs more often (unless JP and Rios are your OF’s). That Humber has an identical HR/9 as Jackson dissolves any advantage that Jackson has over Humber in the GB% department. The only reason GBs are considered better than FBs are because GBs don’t lead to HRs. Well, when two players are surrendering HRs at the same rate, GBs become worse for pitchers since they are more often turned into hits.
The only advantage I see Jackson having are K’s. GBs would be seen as an advantage if he were giving up markedly fewer HR per 9, but he’s not.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
If your hypothesis were that Jackson falls behind in the count more than Humber
How would you go about verifying that empirically? Because I feel like that’s happening.
A couple of quick stats back that up.
Humber is ahead in first-pitch-strike percentage, 61 to 54 percent.
Humber is also ahead in 0-2 counts, 23 percent to 17 percent.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
baseball-reference has that info.
Humber: 239 PA, Batter Ahead: 84. Even: 85. Pitcher Ahead: 70.
Jackson: 271PA, Batter Ahead: 106. Even: 87. Pitcher Ahead: 78.
Ahead in count:
Humber: 29.28%
Jackson: 28.78%
Even in count:
Humber: 35.56%
Jackson: 32.10%
Behind in count:
Humber: 35.14%
Jackson: 39.11%
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
furthermore...
OPSA (OBP + SLG against)
Ahead in Count
Humber: .230
Jackson: .597
Even in count:
Humber: .603
Jackson: .596
Behind in count:
Humber: .796
Jackson: 1.031
sOPS+ (OPS+ compared to league average in that situation. #<100 = better, #>100 worse)
With 2 strikes:
Humber: 56
Jackson: 120
With 3 balls:
Humber: 104
Jackson: 194
Jackson has actually been worse than the league when putting two strikes on the batter, and been considerably worse than the league when putting three balls on the batter
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
thanks for your contribution!
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
also, it's not that Jackson falls behind more than Humber that makes the difference
it’s that Jackson would theoretically be falling behind more than Jackson normally does that makes the point. Jackson’s always had shitty count problems.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
it's not that Jackson falls behind more than Humber (he does) that makes the difference
it’s that Jackson’s been rocked harder when he does*
there, fyp.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
i showed my work. it's in the post.
and my whole point is that Jackson is suffering as a matter of inches and circumstance, so counting HR/FB does not make sense. i.e. balls hit w/ a given velocity and trajectory have provided each pitcher with significantly different results. the best proxy to test for this thesis then is to look at batted balls, not results.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
er
to look at average batted ball values compared to results. which i did.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
I'm not sure what you mean.
What is your point, again, based on batted ball values?
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
what are you objecting to in the post?
your response to me looked like a re-statement of things i already talked about, which is why i’d rather you re-read everything i already wrote. based on what i’m reading, your questions have been answered.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
I'm just trying to understand your reasoning that...
Jackson has been better based on batted ball values. Your argument appears to be that Jackson has been better because he’s 1) struck out more batters 2) induced more ground balls 3) induced fewer fly balls and 4) given up more line drives, but this doesn’t count for much.
I was saying that I have a problem believing Jackson’s been better based on #’s 2 and 3 since Humber has allowed fewer HR/FB and the same amount of HR/9.
I suppose it comes down to whether you think HR/FB is pure luck and ball park factors and not a reflection of a pitcher’s skill.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
show me the actual on field results.
and keep your goof ass metrics to yourself! lucky or not… worthy or not… humber has been better than jackson thus far.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Jackson can't even figure out what to wear
He’s like the e-gus of uniforms.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15222601&topic_id=8879838&c_id=mlb
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on May 27, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
a doi. you're ignoring my question.
what do we count as “results” ? is there a defense behind them or isn’t there?
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
yes there is.
he has the lowest ERA in the bunch. he has started 9 games, he has 7 quality starts (including 6 in a row)… he’s worked at least 7 innings 5 out of his last 6 starts. the guy gives us a chance to win.
jackson has had 10 starts, has worked 7 innings 4 times… has recorded 3 quality starts this year.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
yes
so how or how hasn’t the defense impacted him? the results are dependent on the defense behind him as well as how he throws as well as luck. balls that Humber allows in play have incredibly rarely gone for hits while Jackson has been a bit unlucky relative to his career.
so either the defense is helping one and not the other, one is getting unlucky with the exact placement of hits or you’re arguing that even though he won’t sustain his current form, he’s actually responsible for where hitters hit the ball. even though this goes against one of the very basic tenets of sabermetrics that’s been studied ad nauseam for over a decade.
just being on the mound while shit happens around you is not the same as “performing”. those aren’t results they’re necessarily responsible for.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
i could give 2 fucks how he's doing it...
but he’s doing it. and he pitched better against toronto than jackson did today. the beat goes on colin!
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Is the K/BB FIP a reliable way to determine which pitcher has been better over a short stretch of time?
It does not take consistency into account. Jackson’s one great start against an 0-6 Rays team batting under .200 does wonders in the calculation of that bbFIP metric. Remove that one start for Jackson where he had 13 Ks and 1 BB (a performance which he has not even come close to repeating) and he is now .2 runs worse than Humber per 9.
Humber is currently on a six-game stretch (which happens to coincide with the addition of a 4th pitch) averaging 7 IP and 4 hits per start. That’s a fantastic run. Humber’s hit 6 IP twice more than Jackson in two less starts. If you want expected run values for batted ball data, Humber’s tERA is nearly .8 runs lower than Jackson (who had the 2nd highest tERA of our starters). Humber has benefited from good fortune, but I cannot believe it has been so much to consider Jackson the better pitcher over this first two month stretch.
KBB FIP is the most reliable
since it depends least on things that require a high sample to stabilize. K’s in particular stabilize very quickly.
of course what i would use most ideally are actual updated projections that regress each peripheral appropriately, but the whole problem there is that it presupposes my point.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
damn, colin, this is good
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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on May 28, 2011 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions
I like pitcher WAR, I just think it's important to realize what it means and what goes into it rather than looking at it as an absolute statement of what a player has contributed.
Tango does a really nice job of exploring the differences between rWAR (or bWAR) and fWAR here, and seeing what each one is good for. It can be very easy to dismiss WAR for pitchers, especially when what it says doesn’t seem to line up all that well with what we’ve seen, but it seems far too valuable a tool to ignore completely.
The pitcher fWAR list differs pretty greatly from the pitcher rWAR list so far this season, but combining the two produces something I think is pretty agreeable: Floyd and Humber have been the two best starters, Peavy has been pretty good in his limited time, Santos and Crain have been the best relievers, Buehrle has been pretty Buehrle-ish, etc. Edwin Jackson is the big disagreement between the two metrics, which seems fitting given his performances, which tend to fall into “dominant” or “struggling” but nowhere in between.
It’s certainly far from the only good information, but it’s not bad, either.
"I'm the Chicago man. I'm vital in Chicago." -Willy Ohman, Act 1
by mechanical turk on May 27, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
except that in the sample sizes we're talking about
fWAR is going to be a lot better.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
Baby steps, dude.
My goal was not to show which WAR is best here, but rather to show that WAR is useful and should not be dismissed. Maybe I missed that point by a bit.
"I'm the Chicago man. I'm vital in Chicago." -Willy Ohman, Act 1
by mechanical turk on May 27, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
you're doing the Lord's work, MT
i on the other hand am tactless.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
Correct me if I'm wrong
but Humber will have 1 more year after this year before he’s arbitration eligible?
I usually get this info from BaseballReference.com
but it’s not updated past ’11 for Humber.
by polodude017 on May 27, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Not sure how legit this site is...
but this link (http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/chicago-white-sox/philip-humber/) says he is on a one year deal and is a FA after ’11.
by polodude017 on May 27, 2011 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
My Two Cents...
Buehrle and Jackson are both gone after this year. The only way I see Buehrle sticking around is if he takes a short deal at a salary that is more fitting of his current production. I don’t see that happening. I really can’t envision any way Jackson is back. With Boras as his agent, he’s going to want elite starter money for mediocre starter production. KW would be a fool to pay what he will surely be asking. That means past Danks, Peavy (if he’s healthy) and Floyd, they will need two starters.
1. Humber
2. Sale
Wow that was easy. Ok, Humber isn’t the sub-3 ERA pitcher we have seen so far, but he could certainly be a cheap, serviceable back-end starter. I keep him in the rotation and demote Jackson to the pen. He’s not coming back anyway, so I could really care less if he doesn’t like it. His stuff is also the best fit in the pen. Unless Humber implodes, I would stick with this.
Send Sale down to AA or AAA to work as a starter and stretch out for next year. No need for three lefties in the pen, especially now that Thornton isn’t closing. Bring Sale up late in the year for more bullpen help once he’s gotten his innings up and worked on his changeup.
Not sure what WAR says about it...
but a 4.39 xFIP isn’t worth 14 mil in my mind.
by polodude017 on May 27, 2011 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
WAR says he is worth it.
This space is available.
using $5M per win as what a win costs in free agency
Buehrle would need to earn ~2.5 wins for his contract to be worth it. i think that’s about what he’ll be worth, give or take a half win. and since 2006, MB’s had one season (3.98) where he’s had an xFIP significantly under 4.4. his ERA over that span is obviously waaay better.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
I compiled this graph from last year's starters. It includes all starters with a min 27 GS that fell in that range of xFIP

You want to know the relationship between xFIP and WAR among starters? Well, there you go. There is a strong negative correlation. The highest WAR among starters with a xFIP greater than 4.15 was 4.0, and that was one starter. The rest are all 3.0 WAR and below.
MB is making $14M this year and would have to be worth 2.8 WAR to be worth that contract (if you go by colin’s $5M per win on the FA market. Starters anywhere from 4.60 xFIP to 4.30 xFIP were worth up to 3.0 WAR. So, even if Buehrle finishes with an xFIP with 4.39, compared to the rest of the league, he’s worth his paycheck. Hope this helps.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Not to mention he routinely outperforms his xFIP
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
right.
so to say that just because he has a 4.39 xFIP that he won’t be worth his contract, one should 1) consider Mark Buehrle’s past xFIPs, ERAs, and WAR, and 2) look at how other players with similar xFIP’s perform in terms of WAR.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
this is my thinking as well
I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC
but please come back Buehrle!
I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC
I kind of feel this way too.
I can see him as a Cardinal late in his career but barely. This guy is a White Sox and they probably work together to get something done.
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
This seems accurate.
"now we are going to have gingers all over the parking lot looking for their tickets" - KenWo4LiFe
no way he's going to subject himself to having to bat in the national league at this point in his career
even if he was claiming to be the second coming of babe ruth after this one
Humber fluke or fact
I’ve been calling fluke on humber all year, but at this point you have to let him keep starting until something goes really wrong. I personally think an all in team not weighing salaries and free agency etc etc going with the best 5 in the rotation and the best 7 in the bullpen would have an easy decesion to put Jackson in the bullpen and keep riding Humber.
In the alt text Randall expands that a bit to other topics,
but I think it could be expanded to almost anything. What are humans, if not weighted random number generators? Ah, but I suppose this is a matter for philosophers.
"I'm the Chicago man. I'm vital in Chicago." -Willy Ohman, Act 1
by mechanical turk on May 27, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Two shortstops. ALL IN. Keep up, Chi.
"now we are going to have gingers all over the parking lot looking for their tickets" - KenWo4LiFe
So Marketing IS running baseball operations!
Thx.
Beware the cure isn't worse than the disease
by Chiburb on May 27, 2011 4:51 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Never listen to larry. He makes shit up.
Half the minor leaguers he writes about are his imaginary friends.
"now we are going to have gingers all over the parking lot looking for their tickets" - KenWo4LiFe
so it's a good thing he doesn't know your "real" name then?
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
we think we have it bad?
ronny cedeno, with men on first and third and no one out in the second inning just bunted (couldn’t really tell if it was a sac or not but it was terrible, right back to the pitcher who made an error). he is batting in the 8th spot in the lineup. the pitcher is batting after him. whatever.
(then aramis made an error on the pitcher’s ground ball that should have been a double play)
on a scale of 0-10, not quite sure exactly how disheartened i am.
New slogan, "We're not the Cubs!"
This space is available.
i was more ridiculing cedeno (or the pirates if he was instructed to bunt though that is hard to fathom).
it just so happened that as i was typing the cubs humiliated themselves at the same time.
on a scale of 0-10, not quite sure exactly how disheartened i am.
tom verducci literally just said
“the milwaukee brewers are a different team at home, literally.”
on a scale of 0-10, not quite sure exactly how disheartened i am.
Disheartening?
"now we are going to have gingers all over the parking lot looking for their tickets" - KenWo4LiFe
literally.
on a scale of 0-10, not quite sure exactly how disheartened i am.
by BuehrleMan on May 27, 2011 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
does he mean a different team, altogether, is playing their home games?
as in, say, their AAA team? Because that’s talking literally, right?
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
they probably only start Kotsay on road games
his presence would be disheartening to the home crowd
I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC
Which begs the question
If Mark Kotsay ever bats against the White Sox, do you boo or cheer because you know he will generally be responsible for 5-6 outs per game?
if he were to play at home...
then they should put pictures of Mrs. Kotsay on the jumbotron. That’d be hardening. I mean heartening.
We all make mistakes wu.. I’m sure there has been a few times I was drunk enough that I forgot to put the booze in - GiT
I pulled a little something out of my ass. i’m feeling somewhat better - colin
by Shoeless In SC on May 27, 2011 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The bWAR of White Sox starters to date
Humber 1.7
Floyd 1.4
Buerhle 1.3
Danks 1.1
Jackson .9
Peavy .6
For “actual” production that looks about right.
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
Yeah I agree with that
Peavy will obviously improve upon his bWAR with some more quality starts. I feel that Jackson should be the man to go to the bullpen when we move back to the 5 man rotation.
Well I dont know about that
Larry makes a good point. Jackson in the bullpen does likely cost Type A status
"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"
You guys give good thread.
Beer, it’s just a vehicle for my favorite drug, the celery for my peanut butter.
-Grinder in Training
by South Side Expat on May 28, 2011 11:39 AM CDT reply actions
Does anyone else hate Colin Cowherd?
I think he’s an idiot.
the better question is
does anyone actually like him?
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
i don't know who that is
but colintj is kind of irking me on this thread. lol
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

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