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It's Walker season, but don't expect change

At this time, the Sox have about a month and a half before any real changes can be seriously considered. There's no trade market. Last year, the Sox were similarly dismal over the first two months - more so, since the Twins held first place instead of fourth. Williams waited until the first week of June before declaring the Sox were "open for business."

So the players can't be fired yet, and neither can Ozzie Guillen. Well, he could, but the Sox effectively ruled out that possibility when they picked up his 2012 option. Jerry Reinsdorf doesn't like to pay coaches and managers to not coach/manage for him, and besides, Guillen is one of his favorites. As long as his family is playing nice, I don't think Reinsdorf will be inspired to cut his stay short.

(I really wish Guillen were in the final year of his contract. Not because I want to see him gone, but because his tone is dramatically different when security is in doubt. When he knows he's getting paid for a year or more down the line, that's when he trots out the "fire me, I'll go on vacation jajajajajaja" line. It'd be fascinating to see if and how he'd squirm with this start and no set "next year." At least he could count on Joe Cowley's warm and everloving embrace.)

That means it's a bad time of the year to be Greg Walker. The next six weeks are essentially open season on hitting coaches, because it's the only change that can be made. It's usually more symbolic than anything, but it's a way for an organization to tell the fans it cares.

I wouldn't be opposed to it, although I can't say I'd stump for it, either. I have no clue what a hitting coach is worth, and I usually like to have more substantial reasons for suggesting changes than "Because!"

Above else, there's one big reason I can't get pumped for a firing. When a hitting coach gets the axe during the season, he's usually replaced by the instructor at Triple-A. So if Walker were fired, that would mean he would be replaced by Charlotte hitting coach Gary Ward. You may remember him as the White Sox hitting coach from 2001 to 2003, when he was canned and replaced by ... Greg Walker.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Star-divide

 

I wrote about Walker at length in White Sox Outsider 2010. I basically asked and attempted to answer two questions:

  1. Why has he kept his job so long? (Key people like him.)
  2. Does it matter? (The Sox don't seem to think so, and if hitting coaches were that valuable, they'd make far more money.)

Neither reason is all that comforting, but 1 1/2 years after I wrote that essay, I don't see the tide turning.

At this point, Walker has been a hitting coach for two years longer than Walt Hriniak held the position. Hriniak's credentials exceeded Walker, and he was a Reinsdorf favorite, too. That should tell you about Walker's standing.

Moreover, Williams has fired two hitting coaches in his career. Both took place in May - Von Joshua in 2001, and Ward in 2003. Considering the number of disappointing starts the Sox have endured since winning the World Series, I imagine Walker would have been fired by now if he were judged by team performance, because they all had similar problems (collectively pull-happy and feast-or-famine).

He's obviously judged on how individuals respond to him, and there's one individual that looms larger than most. After all, he does occasionally go by "Kong."

Paul Konerko is a huge Walker backer, and he's a big damn feather in Walker's cap. For those of you who don't remember 2003, Konerko was stuck in the bleakest, cripplingest individual White Sox slump in recent memory. It probably started in the second half of 2002, and at the time of Ward's firing on May 18, he was hitting .221/.296/.324 with two homers in 152 plate appearances.

This recent New York Times article describes how Walker worked with Konerko to reconstruct his approach.

"I would look at Frank, and that didn’t appeal to my eye," Konerko said. "I wasn’t thinking like that back then, as far as where weight was distributed — that’s not the way I hit. Now I look at it and it’s like, he was hitting the right way. That’s exactly what I would like to do."

Walker told Konerko that he wanted him to understand his swing, and warned that he might not see results right away. Though Konerko did not improve very much, finishing the season at .234, he liked the way he could drive the ball to center and right.

Essentially, Walker and Konerko agreed on how the snapshot of his swing should look when he connected, and Konerko accepted some absolutes, specifically in his lower half. Konerko can tinker with the rest of it, especially the placement of his hands.

Walker was right -- Konerko bottomed on June 28. At the time, he was hitting .185/.260/.265 with three homers and eight doubles in 235 plate appearances. On July 2, though, he hit a game-tying homer off Everyday Eddie Guardado with two outs in the 11th inning, and his climb back to respectability began. He hit .279/.346/.519 through the end of 2003.

Konerko has been the rock of the offense ever since, and his extended slumps have been physical in nature (thumb, oblique), not mental. Hell, for the last seven baseball months, he's produced at unprecedented levels. The stone the previous hitting coach rejected is the cornerstone, and Walker gets serious props straight from the source.

If you want to look at it cynically, Konerko's success is a poison pill. Dump Walker as part of a shake-up, and you might only end up shaking your most reliable hitter. Looking up and down the lineup, and Gordon Beckham is the only one I openly wonder about. Why can't he stop with the loopy hand path?

(Oddly enough, Beckham seems like a good fit for Walker since he emulates Konerko in many ways. In a postgame commiseration call tonight, my dad pointed out that Beckham even uses the same between-pitch practice swing as the King.)

Otherwise, every hitter is performing as a type of himself. Adam Dunn is a slow starter, Alex Rios has toe problems, Juan Pierre and A.J. Pierzynski are getting old, and Carlos Quentin broke out under Walker's watch. There are no outward cues to suggest Walker is preventing these guys from unleashing their better hitters. If you want to point to other problems -- the sputtering, the struggles against no-name pitchers -- those problems plagued the two coaches prior to Walker, too. Maybe it's rooted in the kind of player Williams and his talent evaluators seek out, or maybe it's Mike Gellinger, who has been around since 1999 as the computer scouting analyst.

Dissecting the situation, it's difficult to assign blame to Walker with any degree of certainty. It's almost a shame that he isn't a more convenient scapegoat. When we're looking at a possible failure cascade like Colin described, I wonder if an event like a firing would be a way to rattle them out of their collective rut - a variable that could trigger a faster turnaround than mere inertia. If people are struggling in comfort, why not make them uncomfortable?

Alas, there's nothing to suggest that Walker is going anywhere. There are no outright conflicts or tension, his prize pupil is in a great place, and his would-be replacement has already failed at the job. Given the circumstances, I'm fairly convinced it will take a resignation or a new manager to replace Walker. He's no different from the rest of the coaches and roster -- everybody's locked into place until Williams decides to blow it all up.

In other words, it could be a long six weeks.

Comment 233 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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Jim you make so much sense.

Now fire his ass.

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 4, 2011 6:53 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

I don't care if PK has a sad

Art Kunsyer once told me Konerko gets into long, self-hating funks. If the rest of the team takes their cues from him, then Orlando Cabrera may have been on to something when he said the clubhouse just dies for extended periods of time.

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on May 4, 2011 6:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

I blame Matt Thornton

And OC. And Nick Swisher. Yeah FNS.

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 4, 2011 7:04 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Cowley getting roasted by mully&hanley

For his dumb article this morning. Cowley getting pissed

by Rhubarb on May 4, 2011 7:19 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

joe cowley is a bastard.

trying to think of a word more disheartening than disheartening.

by BuehrleMan on May 4, 2011 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's worthless.

I had to stop following him on twitter.

And OCab def took him man-ginity. There’s no logical reason otherwise for his loyalty to FOC.

AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 4, 2011 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

During the interview, Cowley said the 2008 team wasn't particularly good, "They had a shortstop that 50 or 75 percent of the team hated."

I think maybe Cowley … I think his grudge is due to… I mean, OCab must’ve…

oh, nevermind. F2008 and FNS.

The 2011 White Sox: FALLIN’

Why buy the cow when the milk is kinda bitchy?

by SkanchoDanza on May 4, 2011 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think they should fire Walker.

i don’t think it will help any. Like I’ve said 20,000 times- most of these guys are professional hitters who have had success in the past. it is on them to get back to that level.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on May 4, 2011 7:22 AM CDT reply actions  

The Spanks fired their hitting coach a few seasons back

just to shake things up. It worked, IIRC.

A head rolling sobers folks up quickly. If we are “all-in” we have to be Machiavellian.

Whack.

don't worry you’ve got plenty of time left by the tomb

by winningugly on May 4, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is how I'm feeling today

The WSox are draining the force from me.

NISFW (now it's safe for work!)

by greenlight on May 4, 2011 7:51 AM CDT reply actions  

No, it's

Tom Brady.

NISFW (now it's safe for work!)

by greenlight on May 4, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not.

If it was, he’d be crying about being picked in a late round in the draft.

CRYING!!

don't worry you’ve got plenty of time left by the tomb

by winningugly on May 4, 2011 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

generally speaking, and assuming an average level of competence, i favor continuity in the coaching staff. (especially the head coach/manager)

however in this case, since joe cowley said this

Hitting coach Greg Walker isn’t getting fired today.

i might be willing to make an exception just to make cowley look like a real big dummy.

trying to think of a word more disheartening than disheartening.

by BuehrleMan on May 4, 2011 7:57 AM CDT reply actions  

Walker

So helping a guy with a mlb track record in 2003, and quentin being healthy would be the two feathers in the walker cap, good god thats freaking sad for a guy thats had 8 years of a dream hitters park and a pretty solid payroll with a lot of established veterin hitters to work out. Atleast he has helped produce quality young bats for our system, anderson, sweeney, fields, morel, beckham have come a long way under his tutoring, and all those excellent rehab projects like floyd, danks, jenks, thornton oh wait that was an actual coach getting results

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 8:16 AM CDT reply actions  

what I don't get is when do you fire a hitting coach if you don't fire one after the way the Sox offense is hitting?

Is his job completely safe? When does a hitters performance start being a reflection of the hitting coach? Obviously Walker can only give recommendations to the player and the player at the end of the day needs to take responsibility. But also, eventually the buck has to stop somewhere.

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on May 4, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

when....

you have had a long tenured coach and the same problems always exist with different personal, thats a trend that has to have some attributes that point to a coach not getting his job done

im sick of the hitting coaches dont mean much and they dont get paid a lot, if MLB teams didnt think hitters needed a coach they would have one at all, every player can benefit from any coach, i like using the analagy of tiger woods being the best golfer in the world, HE HAS A SWING COACH! There has to be a value put on the coach and when a team of hitters fails to perform to expectation then he is the one on the chopping block.

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

and...

doesnt he have a caddy he pays a ton of money too that clubs him and makes swing and course management suggestions for?

you also do realize tiger has reconstructed his swing three times now in his career, and had three different instructors for each one of those

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

how so

a swing coach is a big part of what developes a golfer like a hitting coach, but the big bucks fall on the caddy just like in the mlb for a manager

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

and

you do realize that working with woods is a huge deal for pga pro’s they would probably do it for free and then charge amatuer players massive amounts for their instruction

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

If the goal is to wake up the team

then I don’t think firing the hitting coach will make a difference. You have to fire the manager if you fire anyone. I really doubt there is a historical relationship between firing a hitting coach and the team turning it around.

Remember that our relief pitching has sucked and so has our defense, so are you going to fire coaches for those things too?

by striker on May 4, 2011 8:36 AM CDT reply actions  

i don't know of any information that shows a relationship

between firing a manager and a team turning its season around.

trying to think of a word more disheartening than disheartening.

by BuehrleMan on May 4, 2011 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hello!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Colorado_Rockies_season

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on May 4, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

God?

Ozzie is in a dilly of a pickle, what with the Santeria and all.

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on May 4, 2011 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

In fact, just because a team turns things around after a coach/manager is fired doesn’t necessarily mean there is a relationship between the two. But if someone has to go you think the manager would go first.

by striker on May 4, 2011 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

torborg for mckeon.

and i remember that the indians fired eddie murray in 2005 and then the tribe went on that warpath that almost cost the sox the playoffs.

but really at this point who gives a fuck these cocksuckers stink. even i couldn’t help them.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on May 4, 2011 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed, Correlation does not equal causation

I don’t think Jesus could make these guys hit right now. This is not a mechanics problem, it is a mental problem.

by 815Sox on May 4, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

This must be what the survivors in "The Day After Tomorrow" felt like.

(Deep breath). “Okay. We’re alive, at least. But….what the hell do we do now?”

AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 4, 2011 8:58 AM CDT reply actions  

spend time with Emmy Rossum.

Easy chief
We’re a community - Tdogg

by Jack M on May 4, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Didn't Don Cooper bookend Nardi Contreras?

Leaving the big club may not be as much about failure as an inability to get players’ attention and respect due to one’s tenure. Cooper put in parts of a couple of seasons, and then went back to the minors when Seattle’s rockstar, celebrity, fancy-pants baseball writers’ taste of the month became available.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 10:06 AM CDT reply actions  

the only part i understood was the dig on people who like new stats

and i have no idea what it has to do with his point

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on May 4, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

but he didn’t

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on May 4, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry if it sounded overly bitchy and unclear

I think that a consistent management problem with the Cubs is that the media starts calling for a “move”. Hire Dusty Baker, Lou Piniella, trade for this guy, etc., and it becomes the savior-type move that the Cubs have to make. The Cubs hire the guy, and they get a couple seasons of good PR, but it wasn’t a well-thought-out move.

I perceive that the White Sox don’t operate in this manner, where they finally latch onto a move that the local media has been telegraphing for years, just to get the PR. They will make a decision, take heat for awhile, and then it works or doesn’t. Contreras, at the time, struck me as a Cubby move. Local writers thought he was the best option, carped about it, then the Wsox picked him up to shut up the writers.

I didn’t remember the Bevington connection. I’m not saying the writer angle is what happened, but as an observer, it felt like it at the time. No swipe at SABR-people this time.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cooper was two coaches before Contreras

And he was only in the role for two months. He replace Jackie Brown in June, and was fired in August because the guy Terry Bevington really wanted became available then.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on May 4, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Reassigned as a roving instructor.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on May 4, 2011 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

i'd like to see 'roving' make its way into other professions.

a roving pimp, a roving carl weathers, a roving drunkard, a roving kenwo.
i’m sure a roving prime minister would go down a storm across europe. solve one problem, then they keep on movin’ on.

by craigws on May 4, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are Carl Weathers, drunkards and Kenwos professions?

In any case, I played the wild rover for many years. Spent all my money on whiskey and beer.

Grek dictum

by RWShow on May 4, 2011 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

a roving kenWo= a substitute teacher.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on May 4, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

So basically what I've read is no coach should ever be fired because it doesn't make a difference.

Great. Then it won’t make a difference to fire Greg Walker. This is a layup. I don’t care about historical reference or correlation. I’m an emotional fan and I want blood! Fire the bullpen coach. Fire the dude who chases foul balls around in the outfield corners. Fire the new organist. Fire the scoreboard worker. Rehire and fire Oney. Somebody. I don’t give a damn. I just want to see White Sox fire “x” to shake things up.

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 4, 2011 10:15 AM CDT reply actions  

This.

A head must roll. Fire the new tart on organ – she’s too fucking old, anyway, and she’s already messed Beckham up with his walk-up music being less than timely his first AB of the season. I blame her.

THEN fire Walker. 2 heads are better than one.

don't worry you’ve got plenty of time left by the tomb

by winningugly on May 4, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Amen

And let’s not forget that they probably could have fired Walker at this point in the season five of the last six years. He should have been fired last year.

by Otter7 on May 4, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

heads on pikes, goddamit!

Take your whosh like a man, dammit. - RWShow

White Sox Baseball:
We’re so expensive, we force Christians to steal. - blackoutsox

by Shoeless In SC on May 4, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd rather have Kubel's than Walker's.

But I’ll settle for Walker’s.

AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 4, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

If you want the WSox to shake things up...

it’d be a lot easier (and cheaper) to have Reinsdorf streak across the infield during the top of the first inning tonight screaming at the top of his lungs, “You want some of this?”

NISFW (now it's safe for work!)

by greenlight on May 4, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

From DailySimpsons

ON THIS DATE May 4, 1997 “Homer’s Enemy” first aired. First and only appearance of… Frank Grimes!! #RIPGrimey

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on May 4, 2011 10:21 AM CDT reply actions  

2011 White Sox panacea

1. Fins to reduce wind resistance
2. Racing stripe
3. Elbow macaroni and glue-on sparkles

by dr. lingerie on May 4, 2011 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

good ole Grimey

UZR: Oh the underwear I’ve seen.

by e-gus on May 4, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Walker should be let go...

If for no other reason than to throw the fans a bone. Right now I see no reason to go to a Sox game, fire Walker and suddenly I’m full of hope (even though I know it doesn’t change anything). Walker isn’t the problem and getting rid of him probably fixes next to nothing. But show that you care about 2011 and that this crap is unacceptable.

by Otter7 on May 4, 2011 10:23 AM CDT reply actions  

Seriously? If they fire Walker you are going to be full of hope?

I do not see much of a reason to go right now either, but I would think that these guys track records would inspire more hope than firing a hitting coach would.

by 815Sox on May 4, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

if they fired walker and brought in frank thomas

i am certain some people would be full of hope.
there’s very good chance they’d be wrong to be full of hope, but it would get people excited.

by craigws on May 4, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

eh i love big frank but i wouldn't want him to do that. its below him!

plus walker is a beloved 83 sox member. i don’t want to see him fired ever unless he’s replaced with kittle.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on May 4, 2011 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

apology accepted

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on May 4, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Where is it, really?

don't worry you’ve got plenty of time left by the tomb

by winningugly on May 4, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

someone posted it yesterday

either in colin or jim’s thread

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on May 4, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

Beckham & Walker

Does anyone else think that Walker broke Beckham or is Beckham just not going to be who we all dreamed he’d be?

by Otter7 on May 4, 2011 10:25 AM CDT reply actions  

The latter for sure.

Even if Beckham ends up being ‘good,’ he’s not going to be the superstar some (including myself, admittedly) thought he would be.

AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 4, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

really? how come you are writing him off already?

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on May 4, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not writing him off in that I think he'll be terrible - I think he'll be, at worst, league average at the position.

But I don’t think he’s going to end up being a hitter you can build your franchise around. The Sporting News picked him as the ‘second baseman of the next decade’ last year and his (at times) loopy swing just makes me think that he won’t reach the heights I had originally thought. I hope I’m wrong.

AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 4, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

You weren't right then, so I have to assume you're wrong now?

Or maybe you were right then and wrong now but didn’t give it enough time. Either way you’re not right.

by Rhubarb on May 4, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

But at least I'm consistant!

…..I think.

AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 4, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

*consitent

damnit. Damnit all to hell.

AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 4, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

that deserves a rec from me

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on May 4, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

awesome

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 4, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ugh

And playing 58 year old negative upside Omar Vizquel over 24 year old, struggling but the future of your franchise Gordon Beckham makes sense how again, Ozzie?

by Otter7 on May 4, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

the whole gordon beckham = future of your franchise thing needs to stop

until the cocksucker can hit the ball for a full season. fuck gordon bekcham

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on May 4, 2011 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

send walker down to AAA to find his swing

"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10

by Ahillock on May 4, 2011 10:46 AM CDT reply actions  

Is there a hitting coach that has been regarded as making a sustained difference over an extended period of time?

Cooper, Roger Craig, Dave Duncah, Leo Mazzone – these guys are lauded as coaches who make pitchers better, etc.

Besides Charlie Lau or Walt Hrniak, who each had high-profile batting champions singing their praises, are there any other batting coaches one would consider difference-makers?

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 10:48 AM CDT reply actions  

quite a few players praise rudy jaramillo

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on May 4, 2011 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

But then he went to the Cubs, and the Rangers still hit.

People like what Kevin Long is doing with the Yankees.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on May 4, 2011 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Here comes another unsubstantiated opinion:

Rudy Jaramillo + good hitting Rangers team = success
Charlie Manuel + talented Indians team = success
Walt Hrniak + talented White Sox team = success
Kevin Long + A-Rod, Texiera, Jeter, Cano, Swisher, Granderson = success

The Next Jesus of Hitting + mediocre hitting team = hitting coach sucks

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

thome gave a lot of credit to manuel

for sorting out his swing as a youngster.

by craigws on May 4, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is a tremendously talented offensive team

Genetic biology is wrong, there is definitely innate talent. Nurture? Please, its nature plus nurture. If it were nurture, I’d be in a major league uniform right now. My roommate practiced baseball religiously, was highly athletic, and exuded the mental aspects of the game. Yet he couldn’t hit over .200 and rode the bench. He certainly had the mental makeup that makes players successful, but why is it that he couldn’t hit? Simply put, he lacked the natural talent. Then there was fat, out of shape Schepes. He was a gifted hitter and a great short stop. His practice regimen was lax. But come game day, he got it done. Why? He was talented. He had something intangible. Genetics ain’t got shit on that. So fuck K. Anders Ericsson. He’s wrong.
The talent level of this team is generally accepted as well above average by experts, some suggesting top-tier. There are not only talented players on the roster, but also diversified talent. Speed, power, and contact hitters make this team no one trick pony. But the White Sox have the worst record in baseball. Why? There are intangible problems, and there are a few that are critical towards Walker and his effectiveness. One issue is a failure to prepare effectively, another to make the difficult individual changes needed to adjust for the best success. Finally, it is a failure of approach. Much like what colin suggested, their conscious approach has led to a negative unconscious response.
It is up to the hitting coach to balance this while also making tangible adjustments that the unconscious may be affecting. With that said, I think someone like Harold Baines could greatly help the team hitting without firing Walker. I have no evidence for this, but he was a very good hitter over a very long time. He has to have some wisdom. And the way things are going now, could it make things any worse?

by phan8787 on May 4, 2011 11:07 AM CDT reply actions  

seriously. I read the first and last sentences and that was it.

Take your whosh like a man, dammit. - RWShow

White Sox Baseball:
We’re so expensive, we force Christians to steal. - blackoutsox

by Shoeless In SC on May 4, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

More than me.

My eyes crossed and that was it for me.

don't worry you’ve got plenty of time left by the tomb

by winningugly on May 4, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

sorry

i meant to do a better job of that. i shoulda left space. the first one’s just a worthless story about why talent exists whether genetics says it does or does not.

by phan8787 on May 4, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

They also have been horrifically unlucky.

Which has nothing do to with talent or effort.

AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on May 4, 2011 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Unlucky?

I’m sorry, this is a big part of why I don’t buy into SABRmetric stats and the people who speak in them.

People like to throw around BABIP, and casually state that if their BABIP is below league average, then they’re “unlucky”. Here’s one for you: If I somehow got 200 plate appearances in the majors, I would venture a guess that my BABIP would be in the neighborhood of .001, and the only luck involved would be good luck that it was above absolute zero.

If a hitter’s timing is off, and they’re getting under the ball and consistently popping it up, it’s not bad luck. If their spray charts show predictability, and a shift solves their hitting, it’s not bad luck. If they’re playing hurt, and fielders have more time to get in front of hit balls, it’s not bad luck.

I’m assuming there’s no stat that cross-tabs the “catchability” of a hit ball with the absolute “range” of a fielder.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes. but these are major league hitters, not you.

and, amazingly, those crazy sabermetric people have managed to figure out the same things that you mention and determine whether a player actually is unlucky or whether they just suck. i know, mind-blowing.

by larry on May 4, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

You're oversimplifying the BABIP argument

Different players have different BABIPs based on their hitting profile (i.e. fly ball tendencies, speed, power, etc). So if you got 200 PAs and sucked, no one would say your BABIP should regress upwards because you would probably be making terrible week contact and run slow as shit.

by joewho112 on May 4, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

But those 2 examples you gave are not "bad luck"

And the player will regress upwards if they make adjustments. Player X will not have a better season this year just because their BABIP last year was below league average.

Maybe I’m just getting hung up on the words and being a stubborn old man. I can live with that.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

COmparing to league average isn't useful

Compare them to their career average. You should also take into account age, change in underlying factors that would suggest a real change abilty/strategy, and any visible changes seen.

If play X has a career BABIP of .300 but over the last month has a BABIP of .200, and is hitting the same number of grounders/flies/linedrives and isn’t old/injured, assume it is luck. If those conditions aren’t met assume it is something else

by joewho112 on May 4, 2011 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

TF mangling an argument to serve his own ends?

allow me a minute to get back up off the floor.

by larry on May 4, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh stop.

If the survival of baseball blogging depends solely on my totally buying into SABR arguments and on-the-fly analyses, let me know, and I’ll reconsider my scepticism.

I don’t believe I have ever mocked anyone for SABR, I just don’t buy into some of the conclusions that I think are sloppy.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

you're a dilettante.

if you’d stop pretending that you actually understood what you’re purporting to criticize, we’d all be better off.

by larry on May 4, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

At the risk of engaging in a pissing match

I believe I usually openly state that I’m not into SABR, and have a problem with the seat of the pants conclusions that get tossed around.

And when it comes to a simple opinion argument (Dunn’s BA is too low, for example), half of the counter-arguments that get thrown around are ridiculous. Yes, I want Dunn to hit doubles, but not score runs.

You know, the “you don’t know what you’re talking about, so your opinion is wrong and worthy of mockery” attitude has been around probably as long as the game itself. 20 years ago, it was guys who played 2 years of High School ball, and now it’s SABR people.

And “better off” means…?

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

this isn't a pissing match. at least not yet.

you have a facile understanding of what you’re criticizing. which isn’t to say that everyone who is arguing against you does have a full understanding. but when you argue about these things, you sound kind of like someone who’s buddy told him about “sabermetrics” from what his friend told him joe morgan wrote in joe’s great tome, moneyball.

and better off means having an actual discussion, instead of reading a half-understandable screed, which is what your adam dunn thing was.

by larry on May 4, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, no, I'm not up to date on 4 different SABR sites' variable definitions...

One doesn’t need a PhD in statistical analysis from the University of Chicago to understand that a player with a .300/.400/.500 batting line is a better hitter than a guy with a .200/.300/.350 line, all else being equal. My problem does not come from somebody having worked up a formula that digs deeper into the events of those stats. It’s the “Tee-hee, you used a non-fashionable stat” non-arguments I resist.

I doubt you want to revisit the Adam Dunn issue. There was no discussion, just mockery of the idea that somebody thinks a hitter should be hitting more, with idiotic extrapolations of arguments that were never made. You want to call that a screed? Have at it.

There is a synergy where we all decide a guy sucks for SABR reason X, and that is the correct argument, period.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you for agreeing!

I thought your head exploded. Now I see you’re alive and well and condescending as ever. If you think I’m wrong or stupid to say what I did, say why. I don’t claim to be perfect or even mostly right. I like other opinions and I like to learn.

by phan8787 on May 4, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Upon further review, the ruling on the field is overturned

Yeah, I guess you’re right. I don’t know, I grasp at straws here. Maybe GW should humble himself and ask help from Baines (if he hasn’t). But let me adjust my conclusion, cause I like your point. If the Sox and Walker have not been using Baines extensively, they should start and at least see if he can provide some fresh perspective. Baines was a major league hitter for a long time, and he was good for a long time. I think he understands better than Walker what it is like to manage high individual expectations when things aren’t going well. That problem, I think, is a huge one for Sox hitters right now. But I could be wrong.

by phan8787 on May 4, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thing is though, most of these guys are well past listening to a hitting coach

That’s why people keep saying over and over again that it is the players fault

by 815Sox on May 4, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Prideful bastards

Proverbs 12:15

“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
   but a wise man listens to advice.”

by phan8787 on May 4, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

actually that was harsh.

mistook you for someone else. apologies.

by craigws on May 4, 2011 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

its cool

Luke 6:37

""Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;"

Ha ha. Alright. That’s my last one. I promise.

by phan8787 on May 4, 2011 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably true

Nobody but the team knows what it’s really like. If they ignore the advice of hitting coaches, I stand by what I said. If they are listening to advice and it isn’t working, then something has to change (I don’t mean a firing, btw, maybe approach or perspective, who knows). If it’s both, then the impetus is on the players, in my opinion, to fully adhere to the advice of their coaches.

by phan8787 on May 4, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would think that a player has to filter out so much bullshit

When he’s in a slump, everybody from the organist to the peanut vendor has an opinion about what he’s doing wrong. I know this from the baseball biographies I have read.

A hitter has to rely on one person they trust. If that guy isn’t in the organization, he’s SOL.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

1st real chance I had to watch an entire game last night.

I’ll contend it’s on the players. But, I recall a couple of years ago Walker stating how he doesn’t adjust swings. (No exact memory, so no quotes required). I’ll contend that a full-fledged swing correction is not the best method, but a little tweaking wouldn’t hurt (i.e. loading methods for timing). I may be the only dissenting vote, but Rios’ stance is pathetic. Why the hell would a tall power swinging guy like Alex scrunch himself down on his toes? Even more still with a sore toe.

The players’ mental approach and count recognition baffles me more times than not. There has been many times where a hitter passes on best chance for a hit and offers at a bad pitch later in the at bat when behind in the count. I get it that pitch count is important, but when a hitter is struggling like Beckham, why take early pitches when he knows full well they’re the best chance he has to make contact? Also (& here’s when I think hitting coach comes in) Gordon hasn’t been able to hit breaking balls all year. He’s any easy out, IMO because of his plate approach.

Anyway, I think it’s a little on Walker as well. I can barely watch, but I’ll remain hopefull they can still turn this thing around.

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

by lastof12 on May 4, 2011 11:20 AM CDT reply actions  

anyone catch stones comments about walker early in the game

basically he said “walker a guy everyone loved in spring, liked at the start of the season and now is a whipping boy for the sox struggles”

WHERE THE HELL has steve stone been, noone has liked walker freaking ever, and I get the point he was making but I hope he felt like a tool bag the rest of the game watching liriano throw nothing but hot garbage up at the plate and sox hitters unable to do anything with it

side note, stoney also sounded like death, get that guy a cough drop

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 11:56 AM CDT reply actions  

Did you read the article? The Captain of the team appears to be one of his biggest fans

Walker is very well liked in the White Sox organization, the fans do not run the team. When they start hitting people will forget about Walker. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone new is brought in this upcoming offseason.

Why risk shaking up Konerko, our most consistent player? At this point, I cannot see any good that would come from firing the coaching staff in April, that is not the message this team needs now. These guys are veterans with long track records, firing Walker will not automatically make the guys start hitting.

by 815Sox on May 4, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

if walker was fired today

do you honostly think another team would hire him?

because i know ozzie and don cooper could get work tomorrow if they were fired today

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

huh

my point is simple, walker isnt a good hitting coach, noone else would hire him, the longer he is our hitting coach the less likely it is for sox players to hit

firing him is a very relevant move, it would improve the coaching staff and likely improve the production on the field

you hate analogies but its pretty similiar to the bears situation with ron turner, everyone said it wasnt his fault the offense was bad, then martz comes in and we are nfc championship bound

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

in terms of

guys readily available or guys in the league in general?

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

so anyone

rudy jaramillo, brook jacoby, mark mcgwire, rob thomson, mickey hatcher

jon nunnally is off to a good start obviously a month shouldnt make or break a guy

i would have to dig deeper for some other names but these guys have come up as names that guys like

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

in the sox organization

i would remove walker and bring andy tomberlin on, he seemed to have a ton of success with guys that are currently struggling with other coaches

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

and i hate shitty analogies.

martz and turner call plays. it’s not “pretty similar” to that.

by larry on May 4, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

they arent shitty

you just never agree with anything i say on principal of being a dick

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

larry

you constantly mix words and take things brutally out of context and intentially try to be a dick

someone commented hitting coaches dont matter i point out, coaches matter even tiger woods has a coach, you come back with his coach only makes 35 k a year so it doesnt mean anything

someone says firing a coach wont do anything, i bring up the bears made 1 high profile change on their staff along with several other ones just last year and went from out of the playoffs to hosting an nfc championship game

i bring up that noone would hire walker if fired unlike some of our other coaches who do a good job and you lack a response

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

THe making little money argument is probably aimed at pointing out that the coach is fungible

The role of coach may be important, but easily performed my many, many other people

by joewho112 on May 4, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

why don't you stick with baseball analogies

or, better, hitting coach analogies instead of trying to strain credulity by making up analogies regarding other coaches who perform more important functions, whether in baseball or in other sports.

by larry on May 4, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

And the defense has great players..

Aging or not, Briggs, Urlacher, Peppers are all still very talented. Not sure they’d be any worse than mediocre if I was the one out there coaching them.

by Grinder in Training on May 4, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh boy another debate brewing

the bears offense wasnt great but it was improved, and its not baseball where offense is seperate from defense, sometimes a good nfl offense holds the ball and maintains field position not always going for points and risking turnovers and stuff, the bears won a lot of games last year, coaching changes across the board was a big reason why

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Knox stop with all the analogies

If you want him gone just say you want him gone. I sure as hell do. You certainly won’t win an argument on anything that is quantifiable about firing a hitting coach.

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 4, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I want walker gone

i will stop using analogies! Coaches matter, that is all

by Knoxfire30 on May 4, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

if jim, who has spent time thinking about it before actually publishing it,

can’t quantify it then i can’t see anyone else doing it with knee-jerk scrambly reactionary ‘logic’.

by craigws on May 4, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is SSS trying to keep traffic down?

Everybody has an opinion, right or wrong, supported or not. Is there a point of having a blog with attached message boards that I’m not getting?

It seems that there’s a specific type of discussion you guys are looking for.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great. I will sit back and enjoy the Bill James and Stephen Hawking back and forth.

Hawking will be gone in a day, though, because he’s all about the bikini photos.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

i like how intelligent and well-supported discussion is an idea that would be ridiculed.

particularly from someone who just complained about alleged seat of pants conclusions.

by larry on May 4, 2011 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're right, larry. I suck and I'm dumb.

Now make me wrong again.

What do you want to do for Mother’s Day? I feel like we’re married.

by TasteeFreeze on May 4, 2011 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

hes being gentle

trust me

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC
It's like trying to sneak the sun past the rooster. - Hawk Harrelson

by blackoutsox on May 4, 2011 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

larry drives the SSS welcome wagon.

It’s pulled by dead horses.

Grek dictum

by RWShow on May 4, 2011 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah that was kind of lost

Offense sucked.

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 4, 2011 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah Stone did

I’m sure if Hawk wasn’t already out sick, Stone would have gone home.

by Grinder in Training on May 4, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

As Rhubarb stated above

we only lost by one run last night.

Were teh Twain obviously playing that much better than us?

If not for an errant pitch to Tony Kubek, they’d still be playing the game!

We’re bordering on insanity…
link

NISFW (now it's safe for work!)

by greenlight on May 4, 2011 12:26 PM CDT reply actions  

Tony Kubek.

Heh. You are old, too.

don't worry you’ve got plenty of time left by the tomb

by winningugly on May 4, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

yup

NISFW (now it's safe for work!)

by greenlight on May 4, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think Sox fans are more worried about being worse than the Cubs recordwise or being laughed at at this point

I’ve already been laughed at 4 times today for being a Sox fan. If it was a one-hitter I probably wouldn’t have been laughed at. It was a 1-0 game, fuck liriano,

by Rhubarb on May 4, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I made a long winded version of this post previously..

But in short.. everyone who works with Walker seems to really like him. He’s been here long enough that players would have complained about him if he was the problem. That and I don’t even know how much of an effect a hitting coach has to begin with, make it seem like a poor decision to fire him. The risk of alienating the players vs. the reward of a new hitting coach doesn’t seem like a great move.

That being said, I do think there’s something to the idea of players hearing the same thing from a different source and responding to it differently. Devon White came in to help with the base running, why not bring in another voice to talk about hitting? You don’t need to fire Walker to bring in another voice.

by Grinder in Training on May 4, 2011 12:56 PM CDT reply actions  

What are they gonna do?

Not hit?

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 4, 2011 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Who knows?

Maybe they get out of the slump sooner if they aren’t pissed off about the hitting coach. It’s not like they’re actually going to all hit this poorly the entire season. They will turn it around, that may come too late mind you, but it will happen.

by Grinder in Training on May 4, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Captain I promise the leaking will stop!"

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 4, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I really don't care if he helps the team or not.

canning him makes me feel better

I hope Kotsay gets hit by a dump truck and slips into a coma where he is stuck forever in Baseball purgatory having to bat against a three-headed, six-armed Lefty Hydra consisting of Billy Wagner, Damaso Marte, and Randy Johnson. - Shoeless In SC
It's like trying to sneak the sun past the rooster. - Hawk Harrelson

by blackoutsox on May 4, 2011 2:50 PM CDT reply actions  

See. That was easy.

"Do you guys think you know more about sports than MJ or Kobe?"

by Tdogg on May 4, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

exactly.

Take your whosh like a man, dammit. - RWShow

White Sox Baseball:
We’re so expensive, we force Christians to steal. - blackoutsox

by Shoeless In SC on May 4, 2011 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

thats how i feel... only about ozzie.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on May 4, 2011 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

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