Hudson teaches White Sox a painful lesson
Last August, Jim Thome delivered layers of pain to the White Sox with one swing of the bat. With his Minnesota Twins trailing by one in the 10th inning, Thome hit a two-run blast off Matt Thornton. Not only did he deal a blow to his former team's postseason hopes, but it was also the first walk-off homer in Target Field history.
As painful as it was to watch unfold in real time, the White Sox deserved to have their faces rubbed in a decision that was doomed from the beginning. They bypassed a proven producer in Thome in favor of the rotating DH, which didn't even work on paper when giving more than a few seconds of thought. That decision came to bite them all season long, with Thome -- a luxury for Minnesota's roster -- ably replacing the concussed Justin Morneau and handily outproducing Mark Kotsay and Co. The homer symbolized an entire year's worth of problems in roughly 10 seconds.
Dan Hudson's complete-game victory over Edwin Jackson and the White Sox took a little longer, but the result was the same -- a thorough undressing of the White Sox and their ill-conceived decision-making, contained in the tidy package of one ballgame. Going forward, we can point to this game as the problem with that trade, and nothing more needs to be said.
The baseball gods even made sure Hudson would face the guy for whom the Sox traded him. Jackson had been scheduled to start the series finale against the Minnesota Twins on Thursday, but a Tuesday rainout pushed all the starters back a day, setting up this epic matchup.
Sure, Hudson could have defeated original Friday starter John Danks, and that would have proved the same point. But when Hudson clearly outperformed Jackson in a head-to-head matchup, it effectively closed the book on any further rationalization.
In order for the trade to make sense, Jackson had to outperform Hudson in 2011 by a significant margin. Instead, Hudson had everything in his favor. A better team record. A better personal record. A better ERA. Better peripherals. And he's making $8 million less in 2011. And he's under team control for several years afterward.
This being the case, the only way the Sox could even begin to save face was by thrashing Hudson behind a well-pitched game by Jackson. They accomplished neither. Instead, Hudson embarrassed the White Sox organization from the top down.
The White Sox had their reasons to bail on Hudson after just 34 1/3 innings with the Sox. They thought he didn't have a strong enough third pitch, and that would be his undoing in the American League. He went from throwing strikes in Triple-A to pitching nervously in the big leagues, and even Hudson will admit to that.
But he was never given a fair shot. The Sox expected him to be a steady presence in the rotation after selecting him in the fifth-round two years prior. Trade rumors surfaced after a shaky first start in his first chance to replace Jake Peavy, and they nagged him until the Sox finally sent him to Arizona with David Holmberg for Jackson. The trade gave Hudson peace of mind, and he began pitching better immediately. That is no exaggeration - he threw eight innings of one-run ball in his D-Back debut.
Hudson crossed the 180-inning mark in his Arizona career after Friday night. Here's what he has done after 26 starts:
15-6, 2.74 ERA, 180 2/3 IP, 151 H, 11 HR, 40 BB, 156 K
It's not like Hudson blossomed years down the road after lots of different pitching coaches and epiphanies -- he turned the corner after one start, and outside of a rough April, he hasn't let up. The Sox are left holding the bag, and all of their possible excuses make them look worse. Let's go through them.
*Hudson had a fifth starter/middle relief ceiling. That's what Joe Cowley said the Sox privately thought immediately after the trade. Hudson's performance since makes that notion of mid-leverage relief simply laughable, if there was any merit behind it.
(And Scott Merkin tweeted on Friday that "the Sox never doubted he would be a quality starter." Which one's worse? I can't tell anymore.)
*Hudson was a better fit in the National League. This probably goes for every pitcher, since they don't have to fit the DH. But at the time, the Sox traded for Jackson was 6-10 with a 5.16 ERA and a terrible walk rate ... in the National League.
*Hudson only had two pitches. So does Jackson. Even though he can reach 98 with his fastball, nobody seems to have problems picking it up, and his slider isn't reliable, either.
*Hudson doesn't a breaking ball. Here's a new wrinkle in his game -- he compensated by using his changeup aggressively against right-handed hitters, including 21 of them to righties on Friday night. He threw them to get first strikes, and he threw them in full counts, and he was never burned by it.
He's throwing the slider more, too. He threw 22 against the White Sox on Friday. He threw only seven of them in his final start with the Sox. He grabbed 16 strikes with his slider, so even if it never has true strikeout potential, he already has enough to succeed to some degree.
Aside from the rookie jitters, personality doesn't seem to factor in, either. Merkin and Mark Gonzales both vouched for his character on Twitter as he mowed down the Sox.
(And Williams doesn't even benefit from the idea that Mike Rizzo and the Washington Nationals reneged on a deal to trade Jackson for Adam Dunn, because acquiring a half-season of Dunn for Hudson and Holmberg makes even less sense than acquiring a year and a half of Jackson. There would still be a massive hole in the rotation.)
Basically, every door in this rationalization maze leads to death, which probably makes it the worst trade Williams has ever made. It doesn't even matter if Hudson fizzles out (I don't think he will), because it was supposed to pay dividends now, and it's not even close. They took on a huge amount of money with Jackson with only a year and a half window to reap any rewards. Now, it looks like they got the worse contract and no real improvement in return for their best two pitching prospects.
There's just no redeeming value. Hell, even the second Nick Swisher trade can be justified a small amount by the personality clash and the fact that they saved money.
At this point, the White Sox are reduced to hoping that Jackson capitalizes on untapped reserves of potential. That isn't likely to happen. Likewise, we're reduced to hoping that Hudson's complete game serves as smelling salts for the White Sox front office. The Hudson-Jackson trade was a desperation move in the face of imposing odds, and as it stands now, Williams may find himself compelled do something, anything once again to salvage his "all in " approach. If the decision-makers haven't been humbled by these gut-punch games over the last two seasons, I'd then start bracing for what next year has in store.

Afterword: While going through the posts from last year, I found this depiction of the trade by the late, great thecip. Keep in mind, it was posted within hours of the trade.

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On the other hand, the same "front office" plucked Humber from the trash pile.
And acquired Gavin Floyd for a damaged Sweaty Freddy. And John Danks for BMac. And Easy Heat for Borchard. Jenks as a Rule 5. And so on. Sometimes moves work, sometimes they don’t. Putting undue weight on one game to make grand proclamations about success or failure, while understandable, is kind Phil Rogers-arian.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Jun 18, 2011 6:44 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
Phil Rogers, aryan?
But seriously, KW has received plenty of praise for his good moves, and typically it’s because he put himself in good risk/reward scenarios. That’s the problem with this trade, it just offers so much downside and so little upside. The trade was predicated on Jackson dominating and Hudson struggling, which is a trade you can’t make if you can also make a reasonable argument that Hudson might outperform Jackson in the short term. Because if this trade looks like a loser now, it’s gonna look like a disaster in 2-3 years.
Is anybody finding Jackson reminiscient of Javier Vazquez? He’s got the stuff, he’s capable of looking dominant, and so he’s always gonna have higher expectations on him, which he will always underperform. And so he’ll bounce around baseball from one team to another that thinks they can harness all his abilities to no avail.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
That's my point about KW.
He makes so many moves that there are simply bound to be duds on occasion, to go with the clear winners that he hits on (like those I listed). I think he and Jerry are smart enough to realize that such a result is an unavoidable by-product of their business strategy. Honestly, assuming that Hudson taught the front office “a painful lesson” is simply wish-casting.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Jun 18, 2011 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
the problem is that if you go back and look at what was said at the time about
the moves you’re talking about, no one really objected. in this case, it was clearly not a good move. read my post in the aftermath. there’s no good logic that makes it make sense.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
Perhaps this deal has more turns we are yet to know, and perhaps we will never know
I agree with the line of thought that this deal did make very little sense or was way too risky, but yet many of us (if not all) of us evaluate this kinda things by knowing what we read in the press, on comments here and there and of course on the players performances. I am not defending KW or anybody here, but maybe there were other factors that we are not bringing in here because we don’t know it. I never liked this trade, but I would give some the benefit of the doubt to KW & Co.
If you chase two rabbits both will escape!
by JofpGallagher on Jun 18, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think Bobby Jenks was a Rule 5 pick
I believe he was cut by the Angels. In any event, I agree with your argument that you have to look at the totality. However, you can’t reasonably compare picking up Humber and Jenks to this deal because those are essentially flyers that every GM takes and I’m not sure if they should receive all that much credit for them working out. I mean, the White Sox had opportunities to pick up Humber when both the Mets and KC cut him and didn’t, so it’s not like they secretly had their eye on him since he was drafted.
by ceverettsdinosaurs on Jun 18, 2011 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Yup.
If you give that much credit to Williams for Humber, then you have to knock him for John Van Benschoten, Esteban Loaiza, Lastings Milledge and every scrap-heap pick-up that’s failed.
Van Benschoten really puts a bee in my bonnet, personally.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 18, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Loaiza the second time.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 18, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
at that point wasn't he just a late season pick up? i don't think you can qualify him as a miss.
plus he had a sterling ERA of 3.00 in his 3 appearances. lol
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
No, they tried to get something out of him in early June.
But that’s the point. Humber’s been huge, and it’s an amazing net profit. But if we’re to treat it as more than luck, like Williams made an amazing find, then it seems like it’s only prudent to ding him for the times when dumpster-diving didn’t help.
The Sox didn’t have big secret plans for Humber. As CED points out, the Sox didn’t get in on him the first two times he was available. He wasn’t a lock to make the team. He was skipped in the rotation early on. It’s a great story and a good find, but I don’t think there’s anything to learn from it that’s reliably replicable.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 18, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Unless I'm mistaken
Me thinks he’s referring to ’04 when Kenny paid him $4mil after the 20 win season. Or that time in ’08 when he threw in 3 games for us.
If he’s referring to ‘03 when we had Loiaza as our 5th starter to start the season and were paying him the minimum, then yeah he was awesome. But this leads us back to the fact that we’re discussing things that happened 8 years ago.
3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
in 04 we traded him for the main contributor to the world series championship.
thats a huge plus in my eyes.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I'm with you.
Danks is the one I keep thinking about. Every national broadcast that he pitches in, they mention how the White Sox basically stole him from Texas. They’ll say the same thing about Hudson. Every organization has some guys on either side of that. Yeah, it sucks, and it’ll probably just suck more as the years go by, but even being Kenny’s worst trade doesn’t make it historically bad or the worst such trade in baseball in the last few years.
by mechanical turk on Jun 18, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
so we're supporting a guy who made one exemplory move in the last 4 years?
and that was a no-risk proposition
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Jun 18, 2011 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Why is "front office" in scare quotes?
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Because the "front office" is actually 2 guys.
The only lessons to be learned organizationally will be those that KW and JR choose to teach.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Jun 18, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Signing Santos and changing him to a pitcher has been a success.
In any event, I’m not sure what you’re implying with your comment on the timing of Kenny’s biggest hits. Is the concern that he’s not as smart as he was before 2007?
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Jun 18, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
lol. yeah. KW had a whole lot to do with that decision.
you can give him credit for that. that’s part of the surround yourself with smart and competent people. but KW probably got cc’ed on an email from buddy bell to rick hahn that said they were doing this. and he probably chuckled and deleted it immediately.
That seems eminently plausible.
But as the boss, it’s only fair to credit him with the successes if he’s going to wear the jacket for the misses.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Jun 18, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
is that you, phil rogers?
i think it’s fairly obvious that not all successes and misses should be weighted equally.
Thank you, Bureau of Weights and Measures.
I don’t recall anyone weighing anything or drawing a conclusion on the KW regime. My point, at least, was that attaching symbolism to a single game isn’t realistic or helpful.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Jun 18, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
did you actually read the article you commented on.
let me give you the cliff notes version: this game was a tidy summation of what has happened since the hudson/jackson trade. and, just like in that trade, the white sox lost the game.
you were the one who decided to defend the KW regime. jim criticized this specific trade.
I don't believe that I'm defending KW so much as pointing out that given the track record, it's likely that no "painful lesson" was learned.
If JR wants to ask “what have you done for me lately?” I’d be all for it. But I don’t think that’s going to happen anytime soon, and if you do, then you’re wearing the aforementioned rose-colored spectacles.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Jun 18, 2011 10:51 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
first good argumentative reply in this conversation
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
The misses on fliers don't really cost anything, though, regardless of who wears them
In terms of moves that have significant downside consequences, he’s trended in the wrong direction
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
the problem, inherently, is that the worst case scenarios for big contract guys are way worse than for team-controlled guys.
hudson has been worth almost 3 WAR this year. what is that, like $10M worth thus far? at the minimum? shit.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
he's a gambler
maybe he got lucky in the mid-00’s and thought he was smarter than he is and could get away with knowing which prospects will succeed and which will fail. he’s shown that he can’t do that and its getting old losing cheap, team controlled players for mediocre veterans
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Jun 18, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
he may well have been smarter/better/more informed.
whatever term you want to use. or maybe it was luck. more likely some combination of everything. whatever it was, people need to stop referring to moves made more than a half decade ago and focus a little more on the recent piss poor track record.
sadly, this
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
yup
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Jun 18, 2011 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Chicago ain't ready for reform.
Well, at least the one guy that counts ain’t.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Jun 18, 2011 10:34 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
especially when you can call some of these moves doomed to fail before the ink dries.
i can live with deals that can work, but then don’t, but if a deal was fatally flawed since inception…
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I would argue that the best he's done since 2007
is trade for Q!, sign Alexei and Viciedo, and revamp scouting and drafting.
Rios was an okay move – he’s no bargain for a nice half season, so far. Peavy – meh. Dunn was a Cubby move. The media and “fans” called for it, he made it, everybody shut up.
If KW let drafting and scouting fall to shit, then it’s his own damn fault that he cleaned out the minors so fast, and only had enough to pick up ol’ man Griffey Manny, and a Rios (who would have eaten what was in the bag for a month of the Mendoza line) during the last 2 pennant races.
Ron Schueller was a knucklehead, but he ran a minor league system that churned out the Mike Cameron-Maggs-El Caballo-line of talent. At this point, we don’t even have the level of Greg Norton/Chris Snopek to step in for a month.
I started this post a couple of times, and read through 4 years of transactions on Baseball-Reference. It’s pretty sad.
High-lights are Garland for O-Cab, and the Vizquel trade. Carlos Quentin. Thornton. Santos. That’s pretty much it.
I like Kenny, and he has some nice trades and pick-ups. But reading through transactions, it’s pretty sad. Kenny could sure get fed up with the Oney tweets, and I’d welcome what’s his name, Hahn? or Kim Ng is supposed to be a great baseball mind. Whatever.
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Jun 18, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
i bet i can guess that 80% of the people who read this comment stop reading it
right after seeing dunn was a cubby move.
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
Perhaps
The Dunn move was a no-brainer.
We tried to trade for the guy. He became a free agent. The media talked about it like it had to happen. Kenny did it. It’s not like he went to Siberia, found some Mongolian chopping up rocks with his hands, signed him and he turned out to be the perpetual MVP for the next 20 years.
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Jun 18, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
dunn is one of the most consistent power hitters of the last decade.
the white sox needed a lefty power hitting DH.
yes, it was a no-brainer.
uh, like totally
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jun 19, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Except any value added from Jackson should have basically already occurred for the move to make sense due to the nature of their contracts.
by Pumpkin McPastry on Jun 18, 2011 7:10 AM CDT reply actions
what would mick10 say?
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jun 18, 2011 7:56 AM CDT reply actions
Dem changes
But the Sox (33-38) missed a chance to cut their 5 1/2 deficit in the American League Central. Some changes will be made Saturday night, but only because they will face left-hander Zach Duke.
Brent Lillibridge will bat leadoff and play left field in place of struggling Juan Pierre. Brent Morel will move from ninth to second. Alexei Ramirez will shift from second to fifth. Ramon Castro will catch in place of left-handed hitter A.J. Pierzynski and bat seventh.
Beware the cure isn't worse than the disease
by Chiburb on Jun 18, 2011 8:00 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Konerko is being given the day off to put down a serf uprising in his fiefdom.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Jun 18, 2011 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
im pretty sure everything you have said is green
I'd just as soon never hear another word from that fluttering asswheel. - RWShow
by blackoutsox on Jun 18, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Please tell me they're bumping up Bacon and dropping Rios to 8th.
If they shuffle everything around and leave Bacon at the bottom I’ll be sad.
by mechanical turk on Jun 18, 2011 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Bacon's gotta go on top, or else it gets soggy.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 18, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
fire don cooper.
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
Too early to fire Robin Ventura?
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
It's done! Give it up! You can't go back in time!
The reason the Sox suck is because they can’t get a base hit when they need one. Rios sucks! Pierre sucks! And if Beckham strikes out on another low pitch out of the zone I"m gonna……… I was going to say blow up my TV but meh! The Sox just SUCK!
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
don't talk about trades. talk about how people suck. gotcha.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
I think thecip put it best.

"we are going to have a skirmish" - pierzynskirules
by RWShow on Jun 18, 2011 9:13 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
FUCK THE HECK?!?!
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
(i'm guessing you did not peruse this entire post?)
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
i gotta say
this might be the youdaman of all times.
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
That, my friend, is what we in the industry refer to as "jump-fucked".
Oh well.
"we are going to have a skirmish" - pierzynskirules
you don't come back from that.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
i saw a story about this picture
that girl is pouty because the fish jumped out of the water and bit her arm. Thats how the dad caught the fish (Notice no bait in the mouth). the pictures of her arm are nasty, with teeth still sticking out
I'd just as soon never hear another word from that fluttering asswheel. - RWShow
by blackoutsox on Jun 18, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Make some changes NOW. Give E7 his release, bench (or release) Rios, call up Viciedo to play in right, move Quentin back to left, play Lillibridge at 2nd after sending Becham back to AAA, and trade Jackson to the Yanks for a solid prospect or two.
by Jake1102 on Jun 18, 2011 9:19 AM CDT reply actions
This seems like a solid plan.
With Quentin and Viciedo in the OF, having a CF seems unnecessary. Best spot for the only CF other than Rios to play has got to be 2B.
I, for one, think it’s high time the White Sox stop messing around with Pierzynski and have Konerko catch full time.
by mechanical turk on Jun 18, 2011 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
i don't want paulie to lose a step.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
while we're at it,
i think ill get a tattoo on my dick of a bigger dick.
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
by BoeJouma on Jun 18, 2011 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 9 recs
Lets go really outside the Box
Cutler to pitch, he’s got a good arm. Crawford to catch, he can block pitches well. Rose as our “small guy”.
Rec'd for the pic alone.
But this post should be flagged for beating the already dead, maggot infested, disease ridden horse that is the Jackson-Hudson/Holmberg trade.
Shame on you, Jim.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
To be fair
It’s pretty pertinent given last night’s game.
by Pumpkin McPastry on Jun 18, 2011 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Pertinent?
If we hadn’t already bludgeoned this topic to death, sure. Especially over the past week.
Necessary? I don’t think so. If you follow the White Sox and do not know by now that the trade was a monumental fuck up then you obviously don’t follow the White Sox closely enough.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
meant to be tongue-in-cheek
I like to picture Jim reveling in the displeasure and sickness that this discussion brings, even though I’m pretty sure he isn’t.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
not all of jim's articles are written solely for you.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
They aren't?
Huh. I thought we had this connection. Guess I was wrong.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
not all of them. granted, most.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
remember that next time you even think about pierre.
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
The Jackson-Hudson/Holmberg trade is over and done with
Unfortunately, the Pierre issue is still ongoing.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
So if John Ely had beaten the Sox last night
Jim wouldn’t be allowed to write about him either?
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
and me and wu have regained our relevance!
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
have we really discussed John Ely's loss to the White Sox organization?
Perhaps Cheat touched on it a while back, but I don’t recall much of anything said.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
i dont see the jax-dan/dave deal as over and done with
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
It's over and done with in the sense that they can't take it back.
It’s over and done with in the sense that even if Jackson pitches up to his capabilities the rest of season then the trade is still a fuck up. Christ. What’s wrong with ya’ll? Please, let’s discuss this fuck up some more. Let’s also revisit the Swisher-Gio/Sweeney/DLS trade again when we play the A’s, and the Swisher-Betemit/Marquez/Nunez trade again when we play the Yankees.
Because I know it’s coming, I’ll go ahead and say it. “It’s not my blog and I don’t have to read it.” Fine. I won’t. Perhaps a simple “here we go again” or a click of the back button on the browser would have sufficed. I’m sorry I find it amazing that people are still bringing this up and revisiting this mess.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
It's what baseball fans do. We discuss baseball.
What’s wrong with talking about a very recent trade and the effect it is having on each team this year and in future years?
the fact we've discussed this trade in the game thread and now in three consecutive front page posts just in the last 2 days
and the fact we’ve discussed this trade repeatedly since it happened 11 months ago. Or perhaps it’s the fact that I had to be up at 6 am on a Sat morning and I’m cranky. Or perhaps it’s the White Sox’ shitty offense that has me pissed off and criticizing things like this. Or perhaps it’s all of the above.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This trade is a microcosm
of Kenny Williams’ shitty handling of this team.
What makes it worse it he tried to blame it on Rizzo hoodwinking him into trading for Jackson.
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Jun 18, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
this.
ffs, just because we don’t like the outcome doesn’t mean we should bury our heads in the sand and pretend it never happened.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
here's a rough, quick breakdown of the swisher trade. perhaps you'll see why people find it worth talking about.
name
year war value salary net
nick swisher
2008 1.3 $5.9 $3.6 $2.3
2009 3.2 14.6 5.4 9.2
2010 4.2 16.8 6.85 9.95
2011 1.1 4.9 4.5 .4
ryan sweeney
2008 2.2 9.9 .4 9.5
2009 4.2 18.8 .4 18.4
2010 .9 3.7 .4 3.3
2011 .1 .3 .21 .09
gio gonzalez
2008 -.6 -2.7 .13 -2.83
2009 1.1 5.0 .4 4.6
2010 3.2 12.7 .41 12.29
2011 1.4 6.1 .21 5.89
jeff marquez
2010 -.1 -.2 0 -.2
wilson betemit
2009 -.6 -2.8 1.3 -4.1
so in dealing with swisher, the sox paid $4.9M and got $2.9M worth of value.
and the a’s received $2.56M in financial obligations to get $53.8M worth of value.
and the yankees received $16.75M in financial obligations to get $36.3M worth of value.
thus far
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
i apologize for the formatting, my spacing didn't paste well.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah, thanks a lot. my eyes are stuck crossed.
and fuck nick swisher. i hate that jackass more every day.
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
i'd been meaning to figure out exactly what the returns are on this trade at this point.
it’s eye opening. obviously, there is value in having a pretty good idea of how a player will perform, ala swisher, but jesus christ do the sox undervalue these cost-controlled guys.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
but jesus christ do the sox undervalue these cost-controlled guys.
THIS
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jun 19, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
that shaving advert really winds me up
by hoodlight on Jun 18, 2011 11:56 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
you and pretty much everyone else.
in fact, i think that anyone who likes it should be put in prison.
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
I feel like its judging my bearded face....
3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
Ah. Thanks MM.
I had no idea the Swisher trades were a debacle until I read those poorly formatted numbers.
j/k.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
back to the drawing board.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Maybe if the topic wasn't beating us up
we could let it go.
Consider running into a girl you fucked over in your early 20’s, and now she’s a knockout. Then she karate chops your ass because you skipped out on 3 months rent. Oh, and she’s a cop, so she arrests you for assault. Then you get robbed of your shoes in lockup. That’s the Hudson/Jackson trade.
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Jun 18, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
so are you saying you had sex with daniel hudson? or edwin jackson?
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
There's a good chance the Sox won't face Hudson for another five years.
He was facing the guy he was traded for, less than one year after they were traded for each other, with both pitchers/teams experiencing the opposite of their anticipated fortunes.
I didn’t just think it was pertinent — I thought it was so pertinent that I rearranged my work schedule to watch and write about it.
I didn’t have this angle in mind. If Hudson threw a four-inning slog and Jackson beat him, I probably would’ve written something like, “At least the Sox saw the Hudson they saw.”
If they both pitched well: “Both teams got the pitchers they hoped for, but that’s not good enough.” If they both flopped … I’m not sure.
But Hudson went out and pantsed the Sox, so this is what I wrote. The good news — there’s a good chance I won’t have to write about it in great detail for a while, because this game did all the work for me.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 18, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
way to go with that unique angle. clearly we need to step up our game here at SSS because our shit just isn't unique anymore. maybe something like this:
I teach you the Traderman! Prospects are something to be overcome. What have you done to overcome prospects?
All GMs so far have created something beyond themselves. Do you want to be the ebb of that great tide, and revert back to the beast rather than overcome prospects? What is the AAA starter to a GM? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just so shall a prospect be to the Traderman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. You have evolved from worm to major league starting pitcher, but much within you is still worm. Once you were vice-president of player development, yet even now GMs are more of an ape than any of the apes.
Even the wisest among you is only a confusion and hybrid of plant and phantom. But do I ask you to become phantoms or plants?
Behold, I teach you the Traderman! The Traderman is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: The Traderman shall be the meaning of the earth! I beg of you my brothers, remain true to the earth, and believe not those who speak to you of prospect development! Poisoners are they, whether they know it or not. Despisers of veterans are they, decaying ones and poisoned ones themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so away with them!
this is from atlas shrugged, right?
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I'm pessimistic.
The Hudson-Jackson trade was a desperation move in the face of imposing odds, and as it stands now, Williams may find himself compelled do something, anything once again to salvage his "all in " approach. If the decision-makers haven’t been humbled by these gut-punch games over the last two seasons, I’d then start bracing for what next year has in store.
I still feel like he’s going to trade Reed and Rienzo for Jim Johnson, or something like that.
If the Sox don’t make the playoffs, it seems like all-in implicitly demands that Williams step aside and let Hahn take over.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
this team was never all-in
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
They will be once they finish emptying out the minors at the trade deadline.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
that may be true
they still have trading chits in the minors. until they trade them away for major league help they’ll never be all-in on this season.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Kenny probably got angry when he saw the 2011 draft results
“Another one of these ‘drafts’? They’re adding these guys faster than I can get rid of them!”
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Not at all, I can think of much worse
Although on that note, the team’s inability to bring relievers up internally has led to some costly moves over the years. Jim wrote a good post about that a while back, I think.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Don't the Sox have to be trying to make a trade right now in order to call up Viciedo?
I can’t see them realistically cutting Pierre, or anyone else on the bench. Maybe Lillibridge still has an option but would they really want to send him down? If they don’t make a trade they either have to go with 11 pitchers or tell someone they’re hurt.
The decision must be taken out of his hands
“If people don’t like Juan, well, that’s too bad,” Guillen said. "As long as he’s here, I have to play him. He’s my leadoff guy and can make a lot of things happen.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I agree 100% but I think KW is trying to find some way of getting rid of him short of dfa.
As for Ozzie having to play him, that’s a bigger problem KW will have to deal with soon.
as much as jp sucks
Removing him from the lineup doesn’t fix rios or beckham and morel will still be essentially a rookie still learning the game. Even if jp started getting on base at a 400 clip starting tomorrow pk seems to be the only one who can drive him in
thats not an excuse against fixing a correctable issue
Its one thing if you don’t have another viable option. That’s not the case here.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Totally agree
I’m just as sick of watching rios as I am pierre. It doesn’t seem like the level of bitching about rios is commensurate with his performance. At this point I’d like to see the bridge and the tank in the OF. Rios actually has a lower WAR than jp according to bref
isn't that a worthwhile risk at this point?
If there’s a floor to how much a player can hurt the team I’d guess rios is pretty fucking close to that floor. Even if or when the bridge regresses will he be as bad as rios is now?
danke
I'd just as soon never hear another word from that fluttering asswheel. - RWShow
by blackoutsox on Jun 18, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
My point was only that the bridge doesn't have to play at an mvp level to justify putting him in the lineup
All he has to do is play better than rios which I’m pretty sure my 101 year old grandmother could do
you mean you would get tired of reading about something that's mentioned repeatedly?
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
whosh
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions
furthur proof that the whosh is long dead
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
uh-huh.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2011 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions
mine was situated in the heart
I'd just as soon never hear another word from that fluttering asswheel. - RWShow
God I hated that stupid meme.
Wasn’t aware it is dead but I am glad to hear it.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 19, 2011 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions
according to fangraphs, juan pierre is last at -1.2, and the sox are employing
the worst, 9th worst and 14th worst position players in baseball.
good stuff.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jun 18, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
was 2007 worse?
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jun 19, 2011 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Rios is also more likely to bounceback than Pierre, given age, skill set and BABIP.
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jun 18, 2011 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Because Alexei and Quentin are chopped liver...
3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
really? you cant see them getting rid of
JP teabag bruney ohman etc?
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
Been a hugh KW fan over the years
but its zero sense arguing his trades have been piss poor lately. I thought this was a horrible trade that might at least pay dividends short term but its now even worse than that.
Ultimately this deal won’t cost them 2011 or even probably 12. They have so many other creative ways of doing that.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I still have hope for the Peavy deal.
More along the lines of “when it counts”
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Richard is a good counterexample to Hudson
Where the guy seems limited, but gets traded to a perfect pitching environment. He’s been good at Petco, mediocre at best elsewhere, but he’s healthy and offers more innings than Peavy, so it looks like the Sox are missing out. That’s where you can’t let the circumstances dictate the action.
If you believe park indices, Chase Field is as much of a launching pad as The Cell.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 18, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly.
we can review trades in the past and evaluate who won, but criticism of trades should be left to the information that was available at the time the trade was made.
i can live with disappointing results from a solid process. and i think it’s fair to complain about results if i thought the decision-making process was poorly done.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
he has swung and missed a lot recently.
the swisher debacle, linebrink, peavy, rios, manny, dunn (so far at least)… thats a lot of money out the window.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Let's Be Real...
Heap all the praise on Kenny Williams’ signings of discards (Jenks, Humber), but he’s simply awful about making major trades that mortgage tomorrow for today. Daniel Hudson, Gio Gonzalez, and Clayton Richard are good inexpensive pitchers who will haunt the White Sox and KW’s reputation for years to come.
i was on board with the alex rios waiver claim.
i think that was a good example of disappointing result from a decent risk/reward opportunity.
it cost the sox nothing but the money, and he was a very good bounce back candidate who contributed value in a variety of ways.
obviously, it hasn’t worked out like we’d hoped, but i have no problem with the decision.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
I remember a number of times thinking "My goodness its nice to have a real CF."
I know I wasn’t alone.
"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd
by South Side Expat on Jun 18, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I was torn.
The sticking point is simple: Tilt your head and squint, and there isn’t a lot separating this deal from the Scott Linebrink signing.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 18, 2011 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I still like him.
But we’re paying alot for what we’re getting. When he’s bad, he’s so bad that Lillibridge looks like a major league starter. That’s how bad he gets.
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Jun 18, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions

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