Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Tommy John on hard luck, pitching arms

The peculiarity of Tommy John's White Sox career, which spanned from 1965 to 1971, caught my attention when working on John Danks' player review for White Sox Outsider 2009. Danks made 33 starts in 2008, posted a 3.32 ERA, and yet he only had 12 wins to show for it.

To get an idea of how bad Danks' luck was, I did a search on Baseball-Reference.com's Play Index to see which players had the fewest wins for making at least 30 starts with an ERA below 3.40. Danks was tied for second, in between two seasons by another White Sox lefty.

  1. Tommy John, 1969: 9-11, 3.25 ERA, 33 GS
  2. John Danks, 2008: 12-9, 3.32 ERA, 33 GS
  3. Tommy John, 1970: 12-17, 3.27 ERA, 37 GS

A lack of support plagued Tommy John throughout his entire career on the South Side. He went 82-80 with a 2.95 ERA in his White Sox career, and that's actually a front-loaded record:

  • 1965-66: 28-18, 2.83 ERA
  • 1967-71: 54-62, 3.00 ERA

Roland Hemond traded John after the 1971 season to the Los Angeles Dodgers for Dick Allen, in what has to be one of the fairest trades in baseball history. John finally picked up his wins, going 87-42 over six seasons with the Dodgers, with a one-year interruption for the surgery that now bears his name. Meanwhile Allen provided the draw the White Sox desperately needed to keep the franchise in Chicago.

Nowadays, John blogs about baseball and other timely sports subjects for VarsityScoreboards.com, and he also does some scouting. He also talked to another blogger last week. John indulged me in a wide-ranging conversation, so wide-ranging in fact that I have to break this into two parts.

Today, I'll share his thoughts on situations that a couple of current White Sox starters are dealing with -- a lack of support, and an unprecedented surgery. Thursday's segment will look back on his time with the White Sox.

On pitching without support

"The way I figured it out -- and it took me a while -- all you can do is what you can do. You pitch, and you do the very best you can, and if they don't score you any runs, you can't win. If you can hold the other team down to two or three runs, and you come out with a no-decision or a loss, I just said, 'I did what I was supposed to do. I couldn't do any more.'"

"Danks, if you look at his numbers over the years, God, he's one of the better pitchers in the league."

Star-divide

On slow starts

"This was 1970, and I was facing the world champion Baltimore Orioles. I was 0-5, pitching on the last day of April to go 0-6 [and set or tie a major-league record]. I had some guys who were in the insurance business call me up, and they said, 'You know it's kinda like when you're in the insurance business, and you're out trying to make a sale, and nothing's happening, nothing's happening, nothing's happening.' What you've got to be saying is, everybody believes in me. My family believes in me, my teammates believe in me, my family believes in me. I just gotta go pitch the best I can, and you just let the chips fall. That was my whole mantra as I was warming up against the Orioles -- if the ballclub didn't believe in me, I wouldn't be starting at 0-5. I'd be in the bullpen."

"In fact, the next year I started out about the same way when Chuck Tanner had the ballclub, and they brought a guy out of the bullpen to take my spot in the rotation by the name of Wilbur Wood. I told Woody, 'If I hadn't been so crappy, you may have never gotten to start.' [laughs]"

(Note: John recorded a win in that start against Baltimore to finish April 1-5. Wood picked up the save.)

On the surgery

"We had no guidelines. I had another issue that really helped me when I look back on it. It was probably the thing that made the surgery successful. When I tried to throw after i'd hurt my elbow, I tried for four, five six weeks and couldn't do it. I'd kinda traumatized the ulnar nerve - you know, your crazy bone - that was the only thing holding the elbow intact, was the nerve."

"So when I started to come back after the surgery in September of '74, I had a claw hand - a simian hand. It's what monkeys have. Monkeys don't have an ulnar nerve. Because they have to hang from trees, they hang from their fingers and their thumbs, they don't work like ours do. So they went back in in December, and they took the ulnar nerve, took it out from where it was, and repositioned it in front."

On coming back

"I knew in 1975 that I was not going to pitch, so consequently, I didn't try to pitch. I just took my time. Now, the reason I say that -- if I thought there was any way I was going to pitch in 1975 and everything went perfect with the surgery, I probably would have come back too soon, hurt my elbow, and I would've been gone."

"I threw six days a week - Monday through Saturday - and I figured if God rested on Sunday, Tommy John could, too. There were days when my arm really didn't feel well, but you gotta go with it. I just threw. Maybe I didn't throw as long that day, maybe I threw less minutes, but I threw every day. The only way you can get your arm back in throwing shape is to throw a ball."

 

Spring training

"I'm a big, huge believer that, for guys who pitch a whole season, even if they're young, they should come home and do whatever you do, but don't throw a baseball until about four weeks before spring training."

"If you can't get your arm ready in 11 weeks [the time between pre-spring workouts and Opening Day], you're in bad shape. You can get your arm ready in 11 weeks, but these guys will start throwing in December. Then when August comes, they wonder why their fastballs are starting to slow down and their arms are starting to get tired. You can't maintain that vigorous of a throwing program for that long. You can't do it."

On long toss

"I don't believe in long throwing, and I'll tell you why. I can put a radar gun on these guys and they can throw the ball 300 feet, 400 feet, I don't care how far. The distance the ball goes doesn't make any difference. What makes the difference is how hard you throw that ball out of your hand to get it to go that for. Distance doesn't have anything to do with building arm strength. Throwing the ball hard builds arm strength."

"Somebody has sold these guys a bill of goods saying throwing long really helps you. Throwing long makes you throw hard. I can put a gun on a kid and he's going to throw the ball a long distance. Let's say he throws the ball 75 mph, and that's what it takes to get the ball to wherever he's throwing it. Well, throw 75 mph at 60 feet, 6 inches instead of throwing it 75 mph at 300 feet."

"Pitching is the only position on the diamond that does not practice its skill every day. They practice throwing the ball long, but that's not your skill. Your skill is throwing the ball from the mound over home plate to a target to a catcher to the outside corner. And the reason these guys can't throw the ball in a ballgame like that is because they never practice it."

"So instead of practicing long throwing, practice throwing as hard as you do throwing long, but throw off a mound to catcher to home plate and all of a sudden, voila -- you will be throwing the ball over home plate."

Comment 50 comments  |  1 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

not quite exactly correct.

This was 1970, and I was facing the world champion Baltimore Orioles.

the mets were the world champions at the time.

sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.

by BuehrleMan on Jun 21, 2011 10:33 AM CDT reply actions  

They won the pennant in '69 and the Series in '70

I think he captured the spirit of the thing.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Jun 21, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

i'm just kinda teasing.

(also, i know who won and lost every world series.)

sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.

by BuehrleMan on Jun 21, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

i always liked tommy john... although by the time i remember him he was a yankee.

couldn’t believe that nobody could hit the old guy throwing so slow… yet they couldnt. he had a fabulous career. and i’d take him over Blyleven in game 7 of a world series.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Jun 21, 2011 10:51 AM CDT reply actions  

And again when they chose Singleton for the radio booth.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Jun 21, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

oh dear.

sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.

by BuehrleMan on Jun 21, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

speaking of injured pitchers

I am going to the game tomorrow. Last game I was at, Sunday game of the Sox v Tigers. I apologize in advance.

by 815Sox on Jun 21, 2011 12:07 PM CDT reply actions  

MLB.com note on Garza.
A starter in the American League before joining the Cubs, Garza has a career record of 1-2 with a 6.87 ERA against the White Sox.

Here’s hoping Bizarro World doesn’t occur like it has so many times this season. Beat a damned team with a losing record for crissakes!

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

by lastof12 on Jun 21, 2011 2:48 PM CDT reply actions  

To which team with a losing record are you referring?

(ALL IN!)

“Let’s get to .500!”

NISFW (now it's safe for work!)

by greenlight on Jun 21, 2011 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

do coaching qualifications exist in baseball?

have there been mlb managers who have never played at a pro level?

by hoodlight on Jun 21, 2011 4:17 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

There are lots of guys who never played in the majors, but most have some time in the minors.

I think there tends to be a respect issue for guys with a manager who was never an MLB player. Still, it happens. Carlos Tosca, as far as I can tell, never played professionally at any level, for example. He did have a lot of time as a coach in the majors, though, so it is not as though he came out of nowhere. Trey Hillman, former Royals manager, first arrived in the majors as a manager without ever having been there as a player or a coach. He had played in the minors and managed in the minors and in Japan, but the way Joe Posnanski tells it there was a respect issue because he had never been in the majors before.

by mechanical turk on Jun 21, 2011 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

reason i ask

Chelsea have just spent millions for their new coach from Porto, he’s 33 years old and has never played professional football. he started getting his coaching badges at 19 and is now seen as one of the brightest brains in european football.

by hoodlight on Jun 21, 2011 4:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Weather is going to be really weird

Was driving in a storm near Beloit, Wisconsin and could not see a damn thing on the road. Was terrifying actually, especially considering the Truckers decided to just blow through the who thing.

by 815Sox on Jun 21, 2011 4:58 PM CDT reply actions  

I think I got caught in that storm.

I was in Rockford earlier today and for about 20 minutes the rain was so bad I had maybe 20 yards of visibility and was creating a bow wave in the flooded streets. By the time I got back to the interstate the storm was over, but boy was it intense for a half hour or so.

Looks like we’re a lock for more heavy stuff tonight:

My advanced meteorological training whereby I guess the velocity of the storm says that the front ought to hit Chicago between 7:30 and 9. ish.

by mechanical turk on Jun 21, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

counties

I live in Winnebago County, Chicago is in Cook county. States are broken down into local counties. They play a big role in politics, services, and in our legal system … many counties have county specific police forces for example. If a jail is built, it will serve the county, there will be county courts etc etc

by 815Sox on Jun 21, 2011 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

they control property taxes

the power and control a county has varies from state to state.

by 815Sox on Jun 21, 2011 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, property taxes, sales taxes, motor fuel, etc.

Depends on the county on how this can be accomplished. Cook County for example is home rule and can raise these taxes without going to the voters. Most others need a referendum vote depending on the rate of increase

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jun 21, 2011 5:28 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Counties

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jun 21, 2011 5:20 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I live in West Yorkshire

now that’s a proper county.

by hoodlight on Jun 21, 2011 5:23 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Waterford makes beautiful crystal glasswear

Or at least they did… want to say it was closed down

by 815Sox on Jun 21, 2011 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah they closed the factory there a couple years ago

I had a few cousins that were employed there. From what my grandmother tells me they got a nice severance after some major protests. She might have been on the meds though

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jun 21, 2011 5:45 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

lol

miles away – Ireland is another country with another state religion.

by hoodlight on Jun 21, 2011 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Duh

How many miles?

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jun 21, 2011 6:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

So probably 5 to 6 hours by car. Not terribly far

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jun 21, 2011 9:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

even without the ferry journey craig mentions

you are not going to average 50-60 miles per hour traveling any significant distance on irish roads. . (maybe, maybe if you are a rally racer.)

sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.

by BuehrleMan on Jun 22, 2011 7:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

yep. 1-lane bridges, 90+ degree turns. the road from galway to kilkenny was interesting.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Jun 22, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Depends on the score of the game

If we come out of the box like animals and score 8 quick runs, the rain most likely will hold off until much later.

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Jun 21, 2011 5:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

who thing = whole thing

though who thing is pretty cool

by 815Sox on Jun 21, 2011 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Ozzie and Kenny play hot potato"
Tuesday, when asked about Williams’ take on Viciedo’s call-up, Guillen said, "If that’s a message, we have to get rid of somebody here. [If Williams] want to bring Viciedo up, the door is open. I don’t have much to say about it. … In the meanwhile, who would Viciedo replace?

I don’t mind having Viciedo here–at all. My problem is: Where am I going to play him. He got to play everyday. If they want to bring Viciedo up, I got the pen ready to put it down."

Guillen’s passing the buck may have something to do with protecting his leadoff man Juan Pierre. Pierre, who’s hitting .256/.317/.298, isn’t having the greatest of seasons. He has the dubious distinction of having the league’s second-worst WAR (win’s above replacement, -1.1). Only Raul Ibanez (-1.2) is worse.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/06/21/kenny-and-ozzie-play-hot-potato/

by 815Sox on Jun 21, 2011 6:42 PM CDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to South Side Sox! Please check our new standards and guide to FanPosts/FanShots before posting.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Archerme_small
The Padded Cell: Wait of the World (part 2 of 2)
61y5zkwuutl__sl500__small
The Ballad of bobpuller
Archerme_small
The Padded Cell: Wait of the World (part 1 of 2)
Tedlangue_small
RRRR: Facebook and socialization
Deadhorse_small
White Sox Minor League Update

Recent FanPosts

144560_royals_white_sox_baseball_small
Photo Dump
Ronkarkovice_small
Don't Stop Now Boys: Sox Double up the Tribe 14-7
Small
Reliever-to-Starter Conversions Update
Small
Is Nate Jones for Real?*
Pair-rose-colored__szo0279_small
A Quarter for your thoughts?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Shamelessly Linking My Review of Rick Morrissey's Ozzie Guillen Book
White Sox offer free tickets to CPD officers
A true hitting guru can fix anything
Tweet from Jake Peavy
The White Sox's Black Hole Problem, And Other Observations From A Day Game
Get to the choppa!
Dan Rubenstein heads to Columbus, Ohio to meet Hall of Fame legends Ricky Henderson, Frank Thomas,...
Sox Are Shiftless MFers!
Jake Peavy, AL Pitcher of the Month for the April, is back to 2007 form. While outperforming his preseason projections, is he really up there with the best in baseball? Short answer: yes.

See full post on Beyond the Box Score
A 2 part podcast with Oney Guillen (Ozzie's Son)

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Yahoo_full_count

Managing Editor

Tedlangue_small Jim Margalus

Editors

Deadhorse_small larry

Sealab_murphy_small colintj

Img_2130_small homesickalien

Omar_small U-God

Authors

10083hb_small KenWo4LiFe

Archerme_small Uribe Down