Daily Herald calls out South Side Sox "conspiracy theorists" on Viciedo
Scot Gregor (in reference to this post):
A conspiracy theory of sorts has the White Sox intentionally leaving top prospect Dayan Viciedo at Class AAA Charlotte until some unnamed date this week to ensure he won’t eclipse a full year of service time.
That, in turn, would allow the Sox to delay Viciedo’s free agency by a year.
One source scoffed at the logic, considering Viciedo accumulated only 83 days of major-league service last season and couldn’t become a free agent until amassing the required six years.
That is a long, long ways off.
"There is no magic date next week," the source said Saturday. "I have seen some of the speculation out there, but a lot of it is based upon not having a full understanding of the rules."
...
But with a payroll over $125 million this season, it would be ludicrous to think the White Sox would decline to add a big bat like Viciedo for financial concerns in the distant future.
So, if it's not financial concerns, then why aren't they adding the big bat?
I'm reminded of Buster Posey last season. The Giants had a 2010 payroll that ended up pushing $100 million (this season it's almost $120 million). They're certainly not a poor franchise. Posey was tearing up AAA. And the Giants offense was bad. And yet here was the logical gymnastics coming from GM Brian Sabean on May 9, 2010, in a ridiculous attempt to suggest that his position that Posey "wasn't ready for the major leagues" had something to do with on-field concerns:
"Triple-A baseball isn’t very good," he said. "I’m going to tell you that right now. Especially from a pitching standpoint. Anybody who can pitch is in the big leagues. Most of the prospect arms, the stuff that really can neutralize hitters, are at Double-A. You look at what some of our (struggling hitting) prospects are doing there.
"So these guys (like Posey) are facing Four-A pitching, and you better have a lot of people see ‘em at different times and write their reports and almost have a straw poll of private ballots. Because I don’t know what it means anymore, in the PCL. It’s almost like years ago."
The comments from sister site McCovey Chronicles were priceless. Sabean essentially belittled his own pitching and hitting prospects to cover for why Posey wasn't called up yet. Oh yeah, as is par for the course with young catchers, allusions were also made to him not being ready to "handle a staff."
Nineteen days later, Posey was called up. He magically became ready for the major leagues and able to handle a big league staff immediately after it was assured he wouldn't accumulate enough service time to be a "Super Two", and thus eligible for arbitration after his second season. He went on to hit .305/.357/.505 and the Giants pitching staff was the best in baseball. Those additional nineteen days were critical, I'm sure.
Let's get back to Viciedo and the "source". The logic, despite this source "scoffing at it", works. If Viciedo were called up already (and he was never sent back down), he would accumulate enough service time to be a free agent an offseason sooner than he would if he were called up, say, next month. Indeed, this source agrees with that:
"A lot of misinformation," the source said. "He is not a free agent until he gets six years of major-league service like anyone else."
Well, thanks, source. We've known about Viciedo's contract for years, and that's exactly the point, anyway. The White Sox can delay that whole getting six years of major league service by not calling him up until about July 3. But we're told it's "ludicrous" that a team with a GM who complains annually about not being able to pay a dollar when he only has fifty cents would consider financial concerns in the distant future. Of course, just about every team in baseball - including a team with a similar financial situation as the White Sox - considers such things. They just don't come out and tell you.
Maybe we are a bunch of conspiracy theorists. But at least our logic provides a reason (and a sensible one, if not one fans would appreciate) for why a superior player with a "big bat" is in Charlotte while inferior players flail away in Chicago to make a below average offense. I guess we'll see in a week or so who is right.
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the reason you say about July 3rd
is because the Super Two date is relative to other players that are being called up, right? would you mind laying out the rule exactly?
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
Avoiding Super Two with Viciedo is a separate issue which we probably won't avoid.
The early July date being thrown around is to ensure Viciedo doesn’t finish this season with more than 1 year of service time. If we wait long enough before calling him up to avoid that 1 year of service before he becomes a full-time 25-man roster player, we effectively postpone his free agency by one year (since he will need 6 full years of service time to be eligible for free agency). One year of service is defined as 172 days. Viciedo earned 83 days last season. So, 171 minus 83 equals 88 maximum days we can let Viciedo earn in 2011. 88 days is just under three months, which is how we arrive at a couple days past the start of July.
Super Twos are players who get an extra year of arbitration eligibility. Official rules here. In the past, guys with at least 2.135 days of service (and under 3.000 of course) are the ones likely to be Super Two candidates.
I dont get it.
What exactly are you insinuating that KW may be conspiring?
2011 WhiteSox Baseball: we're all in
They could call up Viciedo, but where would he play?
by hitlesswonder on Jun 25, 2011 11:21 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
so you work for the white sox,
but don’t know that viciedo no longer plays third base?
morel certainly was looking lost at the plate today though, you have that right.
I know he doesn’t play third, but nothing is saying he can’t. Having Viciedo over Morel would help.
For the matter just put frigin Beckham back at third and let Vizquel play second.
Or maybe you feel in a power position because
I admitted to having faults and being younger than the average user?
you don't have to psychoanaylze me, you simply need to read what you wrote and go sit in the corner and think about why it is wrong.
take your time.
You both can stop now.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
You're leading a one man crusade
Against all newcomers. Which is obnoxious.
by Rhubarb on Jun 26, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I know, it's only classy when the entire site rams itself down a newcomer's throat.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 26, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
go big or go home
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 26, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
so who should we trade quentin for?
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
HIGH LEVEL PROSPECTS
Beware the cure isn't worse than the disease
by Chiburb on Jun 26, 2011 6:20 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
it’s more like standard practice than conspiracy. Pierre is getting a lot of rope, and that’s not a surprise, even if most of us don’t like it. They may be able to rationalize cutting him now by saying we gave this veteran half-a-season to get it going, and he didn’t. If Danks goes to the DL, that will make it easier for them, but they may be cutting Pierre and Viciedo will play left (Ozzie probably too stubborn to move Q to left and play V in right).
by son_of_sophist on Jun 25, 2011 11:44 PM CDT reply actions
If they wanted a conspiracy theory
They could wait until John Danks’ contract talks comes around, and point to people like me who think that Jordan plays an awfully big role in any discussions, and that’s why they only talk up his abilities in contrast to a guy like Flowers, about whom the Sox have expressed disappointment.
But this Viciedo stuff is sound reasoning based on a number of other examples.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 6:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it is pretty obvious that the conspiracy theory is completely logical
I wish Dayan was up but after the ST injury, Maybe the WS decided holding him back was the best strategy. Also Cleveland coming back to earth and they are still right there in the race gave them added impetus to wait. Maybe it was a good move, maybe not. But certainly plausible strategy.
where the white women at?
Wow. The regular beat reporters really need to learn some baseball rules and regs.
We only respectable members of the blog to any kind of standard. - Grinder In Training
by omnipotent grab on Jun 26, 2011 1:09 AM CDT reply actions
This is kind of SSS 102.
We only respectable members of the blog to any kind of standard. - Grinder In Training
by omnipotent grab on Jun 26, 2011 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions
So. When DV is called up in a week or so, will Gregor come here to apologize to the ignorant basement-dwelling conspiracy theorists?
Nah, didn’t think so.
Beware the cure isn't worse than the disease
by Chiburb on Jun 26, 2011 6:23 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
all up in white sox business.
and that has to be one of the lamest uses of “one source” i’ve ever seen. hey, dude, you work for a newspaper and you’re attempting to clarify a factual matter. why the secrecy?
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
And don't journalistic standards/ethics demand a reason for using a "source" instead of a name and position?
Such as "(who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to speak for the White Sox)?
Easier to mock the nerds when you have no accountability i guess.
Beware the cure isn't worse than the disease
bunch of terribleness.
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
SSS rising.
Love when MSM quotes Internet sites. Get to work, paper boy. Our boys are outworking you.
by winningugly on Jun 26, 2011 6:47 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
But that's another thing wrong with this: there is no attribution! Not even a mention of an "Internet site".
What BuehrleMan said.
Beware the cure isn't worse than the disease
In a way, I'm kinda glad.
Because it made it sound like we had no concept of arbitration rules or Viciedo’s contract status.
On the other hand, it bums me out that The Score did a better job of attribution than a paper.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 6:55 AM CDT up reply actions
That was my take.
Shoddy writing all the way around. They wonder why circulation and ads are in perpetual decline.
by winningugly on Jun 26, 2011 8:11 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
it was sort of funny to experience the way the information flowed.
a few hours later bernstein mentioned that viciedo may still be in the minors because of service time considerations and it was just sort of presented as common knowledge at that point.
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
Well I told you they read this stuff
All of em. It’s why I get my information from here and not the sun times, Tribune or daily Herald. Do your job better. It’s the worst state secret in the world that viciedo is done with learning at aaa.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Jun 26, 2011 8:32 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Good job guys
Stickin it to the dinosaur
by Rhubarb on Jun 26, 2011 9:49 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Good job guys
Stickin it to the dinosaur
by Rhubarb on Jun 26, 2011 9:49 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
We'll see who's laughing after I finish my fanpost
about how Dayan Viciedo has put a secret weapon on the space shuttle that can trigger earthquakes.
by mechanical turk on Jun 26, 2011 9:59 AM CDT reply actions
The one downside of bringing up Viciedo for Pierre
Is that you have to be 100% certain Viciedo will stick. If you DFA Pierre, some other team will gladly pick him up, with the Sox on the hook for the rest of his salary this year. If Viciedo struggles, there’s no going back to Pierre – you would then be looking at Plan C, whatever that might be.
Viciedo is also the first call up for any position player that gets injured. If you bring him up now, release Pierre, and anyone gets hurt, then once again you’re onto Plan C.
Given that, I am fine with waiting a while longer on Viciedo.
Baseball is life.
1) you’re presupposing pierre is actually rosterable. the whole reason this discussion has been occurring for months now is that pierre sort of looks like he’s the worst player in major league baseball.
2) apparently dallas mcpherson was the first call up for any position player that got injured.
Pierre fun fact!
He has gone 14 starts without attempting a steal, which is tied for the second-longest streak of his career.
His career high of consecutive starts without a steal attempt: 17. Which he set earlier this year.
Five steal attempts in his last 44 games. Either he knows something’s wrong, or he knows he’s done.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Pierre has the 2nd lowest WAR (-1.3) among ***regular everyday*** players
He’s 160th out of 161. There are ~390 (13 times 30) position players in MLB.
Some team would pick him up for the bench.
Baseball is life.
Which means he wouldn't be starting for the Sox.
Win-win.
If the Sox found themselves missing Pierre that badly, there’s always De Aza.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
i don't disagree that some team would pick him up. in fact, i've stated many times that he's probably tradeable, as long as cash is sent with.
that didn’t appear to be your point. your point appeared to be that losing pierre could be some disaster for the white sox. the white sox have an entire oufield plus one at AAA – viciedo, de aza, milledge and danks – all of whom are probably as good or better than pierre.
We've already seen Milledge this year
Baseball is life.
by elgonzo4sox on Jun 26, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
"Is THIS your replacement-level player?"
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, that is really the question: are DeAza and Danks better than Pierre?
Viciedo will be here this year without a doubt. I’m fine with waiting a little longer because of the years of service issue.
There will be an injury to some position player without a doubt. If Pierre is gone, then Plan C becomes DeAza, Danks, McPherson or Milledge (the latter two who have already had opportunities this year and got sent back down). That’s pretty iffy…
I certainly don’t think Pierre is doing well at all this year, but Ozzie is right, he is not the #1 problem player in our offense.
Baseball is life.
by elgonzo4sox on Jun 26, 2011 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
You missed my point
The widely cited WAR stat on Pierre only covers regular everyday players. It is simply wrong logic to state that WAR proves Pierre is the worst player among the 750 current MLB active roster players.
For the record I think BOTH of our Bottom Four WAR players should see more bench time. Ozzie could play others at various times (especially against tough match ups for the two Bottom Four WAR guys) and then use them in higher percentage situations, to give them a better chance to succeed.
Baseball is life.
by elgonzo4sox on Jun 26, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
How can Pierre be made to be any better?
Unlike Dunn, he has no particular one weakness to counter. Unlike Rios, Pierre doesn’t play a premium defensive position.
What’s the payoff for having Pierre around? It seems like you’re a big believer in “The devil you know…”
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Pierre could be made to be better if he sat his ass on the bench.
How can KW and Ozzie be made to be any better?
i feel like elgonzo is a PR man for an atrocious third world dictator.
“idi amin may be awful and eat your children – but, what if he wasn’t here? alejandro de aza may be awful, eat your children AND burn down your house. so why don’t we just keep idi amin around to make sure that doesn’t happen.”
by larry on Jun 26, 2011 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I think he was on a 2004 presidential candidate's staff
“He’s tough on terror and keeps us safe. If we do not elect him its gonna happen again!”
Off the wall suggestion: Pierre and Dunn could platoon at DH
Pierre’s splits YTD:
Vs RH: .231 / .270 / .547
Vs LH: .317 / .446 / .779
Dunn’s splits YTD:
Vs RH: .223 / .352 / .764
Vs LH: .019 / .177 / .197
Solves two problems. ;-)
Baseball is life.
by elgonzo4sox on Jun 26, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Pierre has walked a lot against lefties this year.
Thus the high OBP and decent OPS (btw, you left SLG out of your slashes; it’s misleading). But he has less than 75 PA against lefties, so that’s a really small sample size. For their careers, Pierre has a .702 OPS against LH while Dunn is at .789.
Better idea: put Pierre on waivers, call up Viciedo, play Viciedo in left and Dunn at DH versus righties, and play Lillibridge in left and Viciedo at DH versus righties.
This.
People can say all they want that the team needs Rios or Dunn to perform decently for this team to go somewhere, and that may be true, but it’s ignoring part of the problem . The team is where they are now with them performing like shit, and they’re still sort of in it. As long as the WS can pick up more production on the diamond somewhere then they need to do just that. Not replacing Pierre has cost the Sox and is going to cost the Sox more until they do something about it.
Bottom line is: On a MLB roster if you have an easily fixable hole you plug it up. Doesn’t matter if you have larger holes elsewhere. You fix what you can.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 26, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
This was my biggest issue with Rongey
Stop telling me that fixing the Pierre situation doesn’t cure Dunn and Rios. Duh. That’s not a reason to not address it. If a boat is sinking and it has 3 holes, you have to start somewhere.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
His other point that you don't know with 100% certainty what viciedo will do if called up was equally stupid
Of course no one knows for certain but that’s not a valid excuse to ignore the information you do have and thus pretend like pierre vs viciedo is a total crap shoot
pierre is the most easily correctable problem
how many wins do you think it would cost the sox if they dumped pierre and replaced him with de aza as in your worst case scenario?
You're right about that
Our other Bottom Four WAR guy has 3.5 years left on his contract.
I think the problem will correct itself, just like our 6 man rotation problem keeps correcting itself. I am fine with waiting a while longer. Injuries happen.
Baseball is life.
by elgonzo4sox on Jun 26, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
you're essentially worrying that the 25th man on the roster would be alejandro de aza instead of juan pierre.
i give more thought than most to the 25th man. and, from my significant time spent ruminating on this topic, a couple things that are important (if there is such a thing) for your 25th man to be able to do is 1) play defense and 2) pinch run. pierre has played bad defense. and, as jim pointed out above, pierre is a fraidy cat on the basepaths now. de aza plays good defense – and can play good defense in CF – and is at least pierre’s equal on the basepaths and is far more likely better.
pierre is offering zero that literally six other players already in the organization couldn’t match or exceed.
by larry on Jun 26, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ballantweet:
Roster move cooking w/#WhiteSox. Asst GM Hahn chases Ozzie down in tunnel, Ozzie says we have to tell media, Hahn says wait 30 mins.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
this is a tough one. most likely a pitcher.
but harrell pitched friday. carter, socolovich, infante all went last night. the rumor circulated about pena was that he reaggravated his arm injury. josh kinney perhaps?
Someone should alert KenWo to leave his ringer on.
He could be receiving a call soon.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 26, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Or Lindsay.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
But ... his accent!
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Peavy told Ozzie he'll take reg turn Thurs. In tunnel Ozzie embraced Jake and asked him again, are you sure? Jake said yes, I'll be fine.
Peavy must be Jedi.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is like watching any Friday the 13th after #2
Stop going to Crystal Lake you jackasses!
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 26, 2011 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Look dude
Our 17th consecutive NL series streak was on the line.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Oh God. OT, but this is most excellent:

"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 26, 2011 11:29 AM CDT reply actions
The Sox are just waiting till they can pay him in Amero's
By that time the MLB will be using HAARP to create perfect baseball weather everyday. Too bad it will not matter because our President would have created his secret marxist state and baseball will be banned. Even that will not matter because the Bilderbergs, Rothschilds, CFR and Illumanati are going to finish us off in 2012.
Merkin Tweet
scottmerkin Scott Merkin
Danks feeling better today. Couldn’t walk yesterday. Sounds like he might miss one start, but no firm decision yet. More on whitesox.com
Well that sounds better than it did yesterday…
if i were on painkillers, i'd feel better, too.
by larry on Jun 26, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Another Ballantweet:
CSNChi_Beatnik Brett Ballantini
Sensible SSS work on Dayan. There is a difference between smart strategy and conspiracy southsidesox.com/2011/6/25/224
CSNChi_Beatnik Brett Ballantini
Dayan’s July date to delay his FA works perfectly; it gives Juan just enuf rope to hang himself & gives #WhiteSox another full yr of Viciedo
Larry's dream come true!
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 26, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
It's kind of going over his head
The point was never the Sox put him there originally for that purpose. It was that after so much time had passed (and yes it was Ozzie’s call) it didn’t make a whole lot of sense to ignore the service time dates.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Precisely. He's not grasping this.
And like larry said, his argument that since the Sox have a high payroll the service time is of no concern is weak. Organizations with a history of profitability tend to be aware of situations where they can save money.
totally, he's missing the point entirely
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jun 27, 2011 5:22 AM CDT up reply actions

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