Rockies 3, White Sox 2: Lazy play undermines bullpen
by Jim Margalus on Jun 28, 2011 11:59 PM CDT
in White Sox Game Recaps
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PrintBrent Lillibridge has won a couple of games with his defense this season. Tonight, he lost one.
His nonchalance in center field allowed Troy Tulowitzki -- who has OK speed and was running on the 3-2, two-out pitch -- to score from first on Ty Wigginton's bloop single to give the Rockies their first walk-off victory of the year.
It was indefensible for two reasons. For one, Lillibridge entered the game for Alex Rios, who had dropped a rather routine running catch a half-inning after his own indifference on a pop-up near the first-base line.
But Lillibridge might have given Colorado third-base coach Rich Dauer the idea to send Tulowitzki earlier in the game, when Lillibridge charged a ball at 80 percent with the speedier Eric Young making his way to third. When Lillibridge did it for a second time, Dauer waved Tulowitzki home, and he slid in as an irate A.J. Pierzynski received the throw to the first-base side of home plate.
That was the fingernail on a gigantic middle finger to the pitching staff, which held the Rockies to two runs over the first 12 innings, and didn't even get the courtesy of a threat from its lineup.
The White Sox offense died in the fifth when Jason Hammel seemed intent on giving them the game. After Rios' lame effort on the pop-up started the inning, an unlikely series of events unfolded:
- A single by Gordon Beckham.
- A four-pitch walk to Gavin Floyd.
- An RBI double by Juan Pierre.
- Brent Morel's second walk of the season.
That loaded the bases for Carlos Quentin, and Quentin got himself a favorable 2-1 count. And all he could do with it was hit a tailor-made double-play ball to Troy Tulowitzki. The White Sox failed to advance a runner to second for the rest of the game, hanging Floyd and the bullpen out to dry in the process.
Floyd gave up a number of hard-hit balls, but he still turned in quality results with seven innings of two-run baseball. The bullpen was even better.
First came Chris Sale, who faced the minimum over two innings. He allowed an infield single to Charlie Blackmon, but picked him off. Matt Thornton overpowered the Rockies in the 10th, and when he allowed a bloop single to start the 11th, Jesse Crain picked him up by retiring three straight.
Even Will Ohman had a signature moment. He came on with a runner on second and one out (thanks to Jim Tracy for not sending Blackmon on A.J. Pierzynski's arm, opting for the bunt instead), facing Jason Giambi. He retired him with a groundout to first, intentionally walked Carlos Gonzalez, and then struck out right-handed Chris Nelson to escape the jam.
Ohman even recorded two outs in the 14th, but thanks to Lillibridge's lackadaisical effort, he still was stuck with the loss. At least he can understand Thornton's pain better.
Record: 38-42 | Box score | Play-by-play
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was it nonchalance?
he was playing pretty fucking deep and made a bad throw.
either way, im just glad lil’ bridge sucks again.
it just feels right.
This helps keep the pressure on the high dollar guys.
Dunn has been getting his.
Lets line Rios up right next to him on the firing line.
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
Watch the replay
There’s 2 outs with one man on in the bottom of the 13th. He didn’t go all out and if you don’t go all out in that situation, you deserve to be blasted.
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Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
you watch the replay
he was about 380 feet deep for a ball hit 150. the runner was off on contact, and had rounded third when he got to the ball. it would have taken a perfect throw to get him. The bridge’s was a bit low, it died in the high infield grass, game over. I still dont see nonchalance.
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
(Un)Fortunately
I have the game DVRd, and the final replay they show (The “Play of the Game”) shows Lil’ jogging up to the ball, looking up to see Tulo halfway down the third base line, and then wildly throwing it to AJ who had no shot at getting a tag on him. There’s no reason that a guy with Lil’s speed should be getting to the ball that slowly. I know he doesn’t have the best arm as a converted 2B but at the “180 feet” he had to throw, if he was there in time, there’s no way Tulo should have been safe, or at least allowed to score that easily.
3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
that camera angle doesnt do how far he had to run justice imho
dead center is 415 ft. in coors field.
lets say the bridge is 385 ft deep.
how far do you estimate that ball traveled off the bat?
200 ft?
so he had to get to the ball in the same distance the runner had to go to third, but he had to stop, get the ball and make a strong throw while the runner could carry on balls out to home plate.
its a tough play.
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
He's much faster than Tulowitzki.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jun 29, 2011 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions
not so much that the distance isn't the most important factor
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
Here's what I could get from the highlights.
He appears to pull up too early. And the telltale sign that Lillibridge didn’t expect to have to make a throw is that he goes to field the ball with his throwing hand. When you field the ball with your glove, you can go right into your crow-hop and throw. Bare hand it and you’ve got to take an extra step. I agree with you that this play is not easy but it looks like Brent did not expect Tulo to be rounding 3rd.
by 3E8 on Jun 29, 2011 1:23 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
nice.
it could also be that he already saw Tulo rounding third and realized it was futile. i didn’t see the play so I dn.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
its barely over beckhams head
200 ft might be as generous an estimate as the 385.
regardless, the sox have bigger problems than this.
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
by e-gus on Jun 29, 2011 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This.
If Lillibridge throws out Tulo, is the outcome of this game going to change, given the fact that the offense basically pulled another Liriano from the 5th to the 14th?
"The Sox have a better home record than the Twins, but...we're not at home right now." -DJ
indeed. When a Gavin Floyd BB is an offensive highlight
…you’ve got problems. I assumed from the 10th inning on that the Sox would lose, and it had nothing to do with their defense or pitching.
This is crap.
We had the same chance that they did.
by winningugly on Jun 29, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
can you show the throw?
the biggest factor to my naked eye was the hop. the ball seemed to have a chance at a peg anyway until it hit close to the infield and lost all momentum.
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
it was actually a better throw than i thought, it curved back towards the plate at the end.
but if he gets it a few feet closer to the plate rather than up the 1st base line, its an out. have to think with the exact ,same throw, if he is running all out to get to the ball, its not even close. are you saying he is running as fast as he can there? or even fast period? I dont think so.
The throw is unfortunately too many frames.
And I couldn’t crop any part of the picture either without losing stuff. It’d be too many MB for reasonable gif. But here is the play. In the overhead replay it looks like the ball was definitely slowed by the grass which Stone mentioned has thickened over the years.
In his pregame interview Ozzie was asked about playing in Coors and he responded that too many teams try to play too deep and that they should play “normal depth” because anything over your head is out of the park.
So your analysis begs the question: Was Ozzie and Cora at fault for having Bridge play too deep, or was Bridge not listening to instructions, because you seem to be insinuating that he was play quite deep.
Now I don’t think he stood a chance at even coming remotely close to catching the ball but imho he should have been able to get to the ball before it slowed to a dead stop and caught it while it was still hopping. If you remember there was a play earlier in the game that Hawk was literally yelling at Bridge to hurry up because Tulo was looking like he was going to round third. If Ozzie is going to yank Rios for “dogging it” while running the bases and the missed play in center, you can bet that he’s going give the much younger, much less paid, Bridge an earful after the first time and that there’s no reason Bridge should duplicate the play again in the 13th. Unless of course he has a case of the Gavinlands in which case we shouldn’t trust him in the clutch situations like being a defensive replacement again.
3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
i heard that.
i think in that situation ozzie may have had the outfield a little deeper than normal to try to prevent an extra base hit.
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
right
Nothing should get over your head; this was all about brent’s inexperience. Someone,though, should have said something to him about that prior play. All credit to their 3rd base coach in my opinion.
by larry on Jun 29, 2011 8:19 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
i don't think i like what brent said.
He (Wigginton) bloops it right in there behind second base, and the first thing I’m doing is sprinting in there.
followed by:
It was just one of those weird things that you never think a guy would send him
i didn’t really think he was sprinting. also, that second line is the only time that he sorta kinda admits he didn’t expect to have to be ready to throw the ball home.
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
This.
Brent has been pantsed. Pierre would have been excoriated on this site if he did that. Brent effed up. It happens.
About 5 days
If my math on Dayan’s service time is right, he can be called up on the 4th of July and not reach Super 2 status. If he’s not up by the 11th, then start release the hounds on Kenny’s office and start calling for his dismissal.
3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
well he could still get super 2
but he won’t have a full year of service between this season and last.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
All these rules are confusing to me
I’m just going to start a letter writing campaign on June 7th and send 100 letters directly to Kenny a day until Dayan is brought up. It’ll consist of 5 words: “Cut Pierre, Bring up Dayan”
3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
Super 2 determines whether or not he goes to arbitration in his 3rd year of service
or his 4th. As I remember it, some percentage of all players who will be eligible for normal arbitration are eligible for Super Two status based on who has the most service time after 2 years. Whereas service determines when you’re a free agent. Once you have 6 years of service, you are a free agent. Since DV got a certain amount of time on the big league club, if the time he gets this year and last amounts to one year or more, he won’t get that extra year. if he’s only short service time by a day, the Sox still get him another full season.
I read this all on wiki a couple times but I get it mixed up often enough too. 3E8 had to remind me in the Scot Gregor post. This is why it’s nice to have larry around. He’s used to this lawyer crap.
He was lookin’ for the Express and got the Local
Good explanation.
Better than I have been doing. The exact cutoff for Super Two changes yearly, because it’s defined as the top 17% of players closest to that 3-year arbitration mark. Teams in the past have kept players under 120 days of service entering the season where they become full-time ML roster guys to avoid Super Two. Strasburg and Stanton were called up on the same day in June last year to avoid it, and both earned 118 days of service. Since Viciedo has 83 days of service earned last year, we would not be able to have him here for much more than the September callup period to be confident in avoiding Super Two.
I this guess is where I'm confused
It sounds like if we call him up at anytime other than September (which honestly is WAY to late to be “All In”) he’ll be a Super Two and get arbitration a year earlier than he would normally. I thought that was the reason behind keeping him down this long, and keeping his service time under 1 year (171 days in MLB terms). If I understand his contract (which I don’t claim to do) if he’s arbitration eligible 2012’s $2.5 mil is voided and there is a $3.5 team option. I could have sworn I read or heard somewhere that if 1 year of service time isn’t reached this year that he would have a 2013 team option and then be able to go to arbitration after 2013 for 2014.
3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
Teams do bring up players in late May/June to avoid Super Two
but they could actually bring them up in mid-to-late April to delay the year of free agency. That situation with a top prospect, like Eric Hosmer, is typically conceding that they will have four years of arbitration. Teams usually don’t do that because the ones with top prospects like that are often not top contenders and/or aren’t sure of how badly they need the call-up. This is why teams often let the prospect simmer in the minors to “get experience” and see how they do while figuring out how badly they need them and which player on their team might be a lame duck to cut in favor of said prospect.
The White Sox are in the unique situation where they know how badly they need Viciedo around the same time his service time would reach a full year if called up for the rest of the season. They could have used him earlier but his service time lines up to where if he is called up in about a week he is under a full year’s service including last year’s time up. If he is called up in about a week he still won’t have a full year of service time but is all but guaranteed arbitration after two full years plus the time he already has. He’ll need six years in the Majors starting next year but will make arbitration after the first two, or going into 2014.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jun 29, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions
And teams avoid Super Two to refrain from paying a young player million(s) for a season.
But Viciedo is already at that salary level. Which is why I don’t think Super Two for Dayan was ever as significant concern as it would be for prospects not given ML contracts up front.
I think you underestimate that aspect.
Viciedo would be arb eligible after 2013 in any case. His contract runs to 2012, which creates an interesting situation for 2013. He’ll probably be offered a little more than he makes next year and may make double that or more in 2014. If Viciedo reaches all-star levels we could be looking at $15 mil for his final year. It’s hard to find comparables because most super twos aren’t star players and sometimes decent ones sign team-friendly deals or get cut. We also don’t know how he’ll perform.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jun 29, 2011 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't believe I'm underestimating.
Let’s assume Viciedo is a Super Two, meaning arb-eligible in ’13. Based on this research, recent Super Twos on average received slightly over 20% of their fWAR value in first year arb.
Since Viciedo is already making $2.5M in ‘12 per his current contract, what would he receive in ’13 even if not arb-eligible? $3M seems like a reasonable raise. So for us to be hurt by the Super Two situation, 20% of Viciedo’s ‘12 fWAR dollar value would have to be greater than $3M. i.e. it doesn’t really start to cost us unless Viciedo is a 4-fWAR player or better his first full season, which doesn’t seem likely. And certainly not a risk not worth holding Viciedo back even further this season for.
Those numbers are skewed
by non-Scott Boras clients. Teams usually don’t let good players reach super two because it tends to really burn if they reach superstar status. Ryan Howard is a good example of that.
At this point, Viciedo won’t get arbitration until 2014 if I’m not mistaken. It’s just a matter of whether he stays for four years(super two eligibility) or three. In a few days, he’ll be clear for four. I agree that it probably isn’t worth it right now to prolong his arbitration even more, which would draw the ire of Boras Co. and they would probably file a grievance.
’10+’11<1 year service time as of about a week from now. That’s the whole point. He won’t reach arbitration for the ’13 season regardless.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jun 29, 2011 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry, I got it confused.
You’re right, it’s not arbitration until 2014 at the earliest like you said in your previous post. But that makes S2 even less concerning since by 2014 Viciedo will likely be around the $4M dollar mark in salary just through normal raises.
Good players reach S2 more than you’d expect. Just in recent years, Pence, Lincecum, Garza, Ethier, Hamels. After this season several pitchers are in line, Price, Gio, Zimmerman. And yes, in the case like Howard where your S2 player wins both ROY and MVP before arb eligibility, you are going to be paying for it.
Most of those guys are making around $10 mil by their third year
Not terrible but not insignificant.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jun 29, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
you guys would be doing us all a greater service rather...
by outlining Viciedo’s likely yearly salaries in the event he is called up tomorrow and if he is called up 2 weeks from now. At least, that’s what I’m more interested in. How much money is this going to affect the Sox on a year by year basis?
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 29, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
It really depends on his performance.
It also depends on inflation half a decade away.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jun 29, 2011 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
There's too much margin of error to make it worthwhile.
How much money it would cost is what we are debating. It depends on performance. But here is how Viciedo’s contracts would look based on date in which he is called up this year (assuming 2.130 days or greater results in super two).
A = Between now and early July
B = Between early July and late August
C = Between late August and season end
YEAR A B C 11 $1.25M $1.25M $1.25M 12 $2.50M $2.50M $2.50M 13 Pre-arb Pre-arb Pre-arb 14 Arb Arb Pre-arb 15 Arb Arb Arb 16 Arb Arb Arb 17 FA Arb Arb 18 - FA FA
by 3E8 on Jun 29, 2011 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
A is truly horrible
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
great, that is very helpful.
It was difficult for me to visualize it. Thanks, rec’d
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 29, 2011 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions
got home from vegas just in time to hear the end of this game.
makes me a little less confident in the 30/1 world series champion odds i got today at the palms.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
by KenWo4LiFe on Jun 29, 2011 2:36 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I'll give you 32 1/2 to 1.
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO HAWKS!!!!!
That's all you got?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
yah thats what they were at the palms. what did you get before?
i put down 20 to win 600
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
50 to 1
buddy and I split 40 to win 2000.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
well weren't they like 10 out when you were out there with the indians playing great?
i got screwed by the shitty division dammit.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I wouldn't blame Lillibridge for losing the game
Two times we got a man on third with 1 out, and what it has become a signature on this team, we couldn’t score even when the opposing pitcher appears to fall apart. The Rockies tied the game 2×2....how? Very simple, they have a man on 3rd with 1 out and he score on a sacrifice fly. When we stop failing sooooooo frequently to score the man on 3rd with less than 2 outs then this team is a fix on the play offs… right now, it that 500 mark appears unreachable.
If you chase two rabbits both will escape!
This team is maddening to follow.
Absolut Horseshit. Exceptional work (Paulie, Humber, etc.) combined with godawful (Dunn, Pierre) = Stuck in the Less Than Middle With You. Brutal team to root for.
by winningugly on Jun 29, 2011 6:36 AM CDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
absolut horseshit?
i haven’t heard of that flavor. did it just come out?
sunshiney craig's comment about me has had the effect of rendering me too self conscious to maintain my public exhibition of ennui.
I'm not sure how anyone with eyes to see could judge Lillibridge's play adequate, or close.
Same goes for Rios. You don’t need to blame them for losing the game. (Although the Lillibridge trot did come during the losing play.) You just need to recognize that they make it a lot harder to win when they play like lazy high schoolers.
If lillibridge had simply been running harder at the ball
It would have put pause in the 3B coaches mind. If he had charged the ball his throw would have beat the runner, had the runner went.
Litttle things
keep beating this team, which is the most maddening.
4th inning walk allows BR to 2nd & then score on hit.
6th inning walk allows BR to 2nd, then 3rd on GO to score on sac fly
Been done & redone on Bridge’s 2 out defensive play (either positioning or effort) allowing the winning run to score
It’s already been mentioned the offensive miscues by the Sox. Gavin pitched well, but had the Sox done one of the many little things in this game, it could have been a W.
I know you can’t make every play, but the little things are what make a team good or bad. If this team continues to play this way=BAD.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
by lastof12 on Jun 29, 2011 8:37 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Are we allowed to stick a fork in this team yet ?!?
We were counting on the interleague for them to make a run. Now even IL is winding down and we are still 4 under.
There hasn’t been enough of anything to say they can take over the division, especially when remembering Ozzie’s team tend of pull a fade-away in the second half. 2005 is still the only year where they played better than 3 over .500 baseball in the second half.
I wasn't counting on the NL for them to make a run
that has nothing to do with it. We are counting on a few players (like Dunn) reverting to any portion of the type of player they were prior to this year. Not much has changed. You are still 5 games out. If Dunn never hits its over anyway. Add Viciedo and a decent Dunn and you have chance with the best pitching staff in the division.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
We had won 17 IL series in a row.
I was counting on some improved performance. The only thing we have going for us is everyone except the Royals is as mediocre as we are lately. We’re all 5-5 in the last 10 games. I can see this “race” extending the rest of the summer in excruciating fashion.
by winningugly on Jun 29, 2011 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
It starts in July
I did a lttle looking ahead (why?- hell, IDK) Anyway, 19 games against Div foes. Let the warm sun shine on the White Sox and may God smite thee foes in thy cue Hawk’s voiceMERCY!
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
since no one else in the division is putting it together consistently
we are forced to believe that this team can turn it around and possibly take the division. I guess I would rather have it this way then have them be 10+ games out. There is only so many conspiracy theories one can conjure up while sitting in a basement. The games give me something to do even if it does lead to exasperation.
where the white women at?
by parkernutws05 on Jun 29, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
The lesson of Konerko 2003
Its what we hold on to. We talk about it but when you really see the numbers its put in perspective.
1st half .197/.267/.300
2nd half .275/.346/.507
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Is it too late to blame lightning strikes on Brent's lethargic play?
I refuse to believe under normal circumstances that it’s possible he wouldn’t come through.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 29, 2011 10:05 AM CDT reply actions
was at the game last night.
thoughts
- plenty of Sox fans on the 3rd base side! Half the stands over there stood for Ramirez’ hr, and there was a highly audible “Paulie, Paulie” chant during a key Paulie at bat late in the game
- pierre had a good game, ripped a double, made a great catch in lf
- Q’s dp with bags jammed and 1 out was a killer. we had hamels on the ropes; he was struggling. gotta at least hit the ball in the outfield
- wassup with Rios? Hamel’s fly was over his head but catchible.
- great pitching
Had to leave in mid-11th so only read about the GWH online.
Sox just looked like they couldn’t buy a hit, especially after Q’s rally-killing DP. That was the turning point imo.
Maybe Rios is the one who needs to lose his job to viciedo.
also
- was also really surprised that the rockies didn’t try to steal more on AJ.
- there was one ab where pierre was up w guys on and the corners were so deep pierre coulda bunted and easily gotten on base.
- it’s pretty hard not to like Tulo. The guy is everything you want in the face of a franchise. There are Tulo shirts everywhere— everywhere— in Colorado.
I was right around there!
I swear I saw Paulies older brother. or at least some dude who could pass for one
I'd just as soon never hear another word from that fluttering asswheel. - RWShow
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