Batting Morel second makes a bad problem worse
by Jim Margalus on Jul 7, 2011 6:00 AM CDT
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Juan Pierre went more than a month between successful steals of second. He has four-non singles since June 1. And over the last two weeks, Ozzie Guillen has thrown a vastly underqualified hitter into the second spot for the sole purpose of allowing Pierre to get a head start via the hit-and-run.
Wait a second. Doesn't this mean that JUAN PIERRE IS A BASE-CLOGGER?
As counterintuitive as that sounds, it's effectively the case, because the lineup has been severely compromised by sudden (and hugely premature) entrenchment of Brent Morel as designated bat-handler, a.k.a. the No. 2 hitter.
Another Rotating DH has emerged before our eyes, because Morel hitting second is another concept that makes perfect sense until you think about it. Then it's completely nonsensical, and not even in the fun way (not to be confused with Funway). It's actually quite deleterious, and not only to the construction of the lineup, but the shape of the 25-man roster, too.
If I were wearing managerial pants, I'd like to think I'd put together a pros and cons list before making such a move. You'll find a dramatization of my imaginary decision-making process below the jump.
PROS
Morel is a contact hitter who often hits to the right side, which would be good for hit-and-runs.
CONS
Morel has a .269 OBP.
Up until two weeks ago, Guillen was quite conservative about his deployment, and rightfully so, considering he's a struggling rookie. Morel hasn't hit nearly well enough to abandon that course.
Gordon Beckham used to be the No. 2 hitter, but it was considered to be too much pressure, and so he was relegated to the back of the order.
Beckham had experienced prolonged success at the big-league level before he was bumped up in the order, two different times.
Beckham is a better hitter than Morel, and was a better prospect than Morel. And they're about equally proficient bunters, for whatever that's worth.
Morel replaced a superior option in Alexei Ramirez, who hit .302/.360/.426 in the No. 2 spot. He did ground into 12 double plays there, though.
Morel has grounded into two double plays in 11 starts. Extrapolate it to the amount of games Ramirez hit second, and that's nine double plays for Morel.
Is three fewer double plays over 50 games worth sacrificing 100 points of OBP for?
The OBPs of the top three hitters in Wednesday's loss: .324, .269, .302. Who, exactly, is Paul Konerko supposed to drive in?
And wait -- Ramirez hit seventh. Why marginalize him in order to elevate Morel?
And who's to say Morel will hit into fewer DPs, anyway? After all, Morel has the highest groundball rate on the team.
Wouldn't either guy hit into fewer double plays if the leadoff man could get to second base on his own more often than once every eight days? That seems like Ramirez is being punished for Pierre's transgressions. Morel could meet the same fate.
And doesn't this run the risk of making Morel more important to Guillen than he should be? Morel has options, he isn't performing like a big-leaguer yet, and the Sox need flexilibility until they could trade somebody without eating (too much) cash.
Do I consider using another page to continue? Or maybe I could draw a thick line underneath the pro, and then continue on the left-hand side, with some arrows to make sure I don't get confused later.
And you get the idea.
The thing is, I don't even want to single out Morel or Pierre in particular, because they aren't the biggest problems on the roster. If Adam Dunn and Alex Rios were hitting anything close to normal, the Sox could live with underwhelming seasons elsewhere.
But establishing Pierre and Morel as a 1-2 punch compounds problems, especially when they're backed by Dunn. Pierre isn't reaching base at a league-average rate, and he really struggles to get to second base by himself. Instead of putting him at the bottom of the order, Guillen instead opts to bring the worst hitter on the team ahead of their best hitters, in an attempt to recreate the visions of first-to-thirding dancing in his head.
Morel has his own problems right now, first and foremost his allergy to walks. I thought Chris Rongey summed it up the best -- he seems terrified of striking out looking, which is the kind of thing that will cause a guy to swing at ball four three times with the bases loaded, like he did on Wednesday. That's a flaw that will take a lot of time and patience to conquer, but by moving up to the second spot, Guillen is indirectly asking Morel to help veterans with their issues before he can cope with his own. That goes about as well as asking a tourist for directions, which might explain the White Sox's difficulties completing a trip around the bases.
These conversations keep coming back to Pierre because his manager is making no effort to cover for him. Stranger still, batting Morel behind Pierre practically opens the trenchcoat. By dubbing Pierre Leadoff-for-Life, his problems automatically become other people's problems, and if the second line of defense caves, then it's up to Konerko to solve everything. He's not so much the captain of the ship as he is the rudder, and neither can do much when there's no engine.
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Morel
Nice timing on this write-up. I was just thinking yesterday about what an awful two hitter Morel is. The guy never walks. Do we have anyone else to put there? Not really, but there are better options than Morel. What I don’t get is that when we hit Morel and Dunn back to back at 2 and 3, we’re giving two of our worst hitters more AB’s than Konerko, Quentin, etc. Oh yea, we have Pierre leading off too. Make that three of our worst hitters getting more ABs than our best ones. What a sad offense.
Follow me on Twitter: @rmensch53
nope
we have no one better than brent morel? i’d rather see AJ or Alexei in that spot. Hell, if it means you’re giving PK more AB’s stick him there. Morel is pathetic at the plate and a .269 OBP is replaceable.
Follow me on Twitter: @rmensch53
i hate you
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
by BoeJouma on Jul 7, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now this is just getting comical, really.
It’s as if Ozzie is doing this to spite Kenny. Or perhaps spite Konerko. When he bats Pierre-Morel-Rios-Konerko one day I will know it’s one of those two.
"You go up there, against a dog-ass line up AND pitcher, and you don’t do a fucking thing with it. They whip your silly, sorry, saggy ass AGAIN, and you look like fucking bottom-ass, bitch-ass chumps doing it." - 2HA
also
the dropping of alexei has made him hit like shit apparently. he was hitting good in the 2 hole.. ever since he dropped he has not been doing the job either. (i’m sure someone will take the time to compile the numbers- i’m going off of the eye test and the fact that he has now dropped below .270)
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
And if "too many DP's" is the reason he was dropped, how about batting him 1st?
Afraid of the solo HR to lead off the game? One would look mighty good about now…
Win It For WU!
i thought that too
have alexei lead off
but of course, where would pierre play?
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
now you're just being ridiculous
i do happen to agree with you though.
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
why not ATL?
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
I hated the dropping of Alexei for "rbi" opportunities
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
You know what would have created more RBI chances for Alexei batting second?
A better hitter batting first.
by ObsidianXIII on Jul 7, 2011 12:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes, he's done his best hitting in the two spot, but the sample sizes elsewhere are too small to be meaningful.
Not sure correlation is causation here. In his career he’s done his best hitting in the fifth and ninth spots.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Please Explain...
…Why Ozzie still thinks Dunn deserves to be in the 3 hole. Why would he hit him third vs. a lefty especially (see yesterday)?
Follow me on Twitter: @rmensch53
Maybe (maybe) he thinks Dunn will see better pitches to hit with Konerko behind him?
? I honestly don’t know. This whole experience this year has been torture.
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jul 7, 2011 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Holmes listed that as a reason this morning
I think the problem is they can only hide so many hitters in this lineup. Do you move Rios up from 8th to place Morel at the bottom of the lineup? Ok so Rios bats 7th but hold on. Dunn is hitting worse than Rios. Ok Dunn back to 7th. Rios up to 6th spot and on and on it goes.
It was then I realized vegans can’t be trusted
by Scotty Ballgame on Jul 7, 2011 11:33 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The pro/con chart is hilarious
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Yeah, it seems like since the move Jim's sense of humor has come out more in the main posts
Perhaps SSS has inspired him to do more writing in his underpants, drinking bourbon straight from the bottle. Or maybe it’s just this team’s offense. Either way, I’m enjoying it.
Thank you
I have been crying about this crap for days. I really have no idea what the hell Ozzie is doing anymore with the lineup. Once you get past his loyalty to Pierre leading off batting Morel 2nd and cold as ice Dunn 3rd is basically a deliberate sabotage. Can anyone paste anything from him explaining this nonsense?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
there's a word for situations like this.
disheartening.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Unacceptable?
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jul 7, 2011 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions
at this point
i’ll accept that.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
i'm reconsidering my opinion of ozzie as an above average manager because of his abilities to manage the pitching staff
perhaps his strategic blunders with managing the offense don’t outweigh his strengths, but they’re really really annoying
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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jul 7, 2011 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions
I think he's still in the black in this regard
For all the handwringing about the lineup, Ozzie Guillen could field the worst possible lineup for an entire season and the actual loss in runs/wins would be fairly small.
Yes it’s very annoying, but a pitching-smart hitting-dumb manager is always better than the opposite.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
This is true
However I do think the effect is larger on above avg run prevention teams.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
well said
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jul 7, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I wanted to post this yesterday after losing 5-3
The bad news is 5 runs is pretty much it. Going back to about the start of May if the opposition scores 5 the game is over.
2-12
Now if the opposition only managed to only score 4 exactly since that time the White Sox have a sterling 8-7 record.
I guess the good news is the pitching staff likes to present the 4 runs or less scenario often.
Yea!
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
You touch on a great point.
The pitching has been excellent. And I think all of us are pining for an offense that won’t waste that.
by ObsidianXIII on Jul 7, 2011 12:27 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The only explanation I can imagine is that this is Ozzie's way
of shaking things up.
Unfortunately, Morel’s development is taking a backseat to Ozzie being Ozzie.
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
why always so negative, jim?
haha. just kidding. i thought i’d take this opportunity to dish out some of my trademark optimism. i will preface this statement by admitting i have no rational reason for thinking this:
when i see mark teahen in the batters box i think he looks like he is really about to smash the ball and wonder what would happen if he got regular playing time.
have at it.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I'll take a stab
make Teahen the regular at 3B, send Morel down, bring Tank up. Old Man can provide the occasional relief at 3B.
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
When the other option is a guy with a .269 OBP
I’m pretty much open to anything.
At this point.. why not let Teahen (3B ), Viciedo (LF / RF / DH) and Lillibridge (CF / LF) play almost every day? What could it hurt? It’s not like they can do worse, at least the Bridge brings one of those Hosmer HR’s back into the park. Viciedo has to be an improvement over Dunn vs. left handed pitching and Pierre on the other days. There was a time when Teahen was not an awful baseball player.
by Grinder in Training on Jul 7, 2011 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah. i actually like morel quite a bit
but i think i have now come around to the idea that he could use a little more “seasoning”.
(i don’t like using the word “seasoning” but that’s the first thing that came to mind. i’m going to try to not use it again.)
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
add seasoning and bake in the oven at 375 for 20 minutes
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
can't find the RRRR
just want to say that bakesale by sebadoh was a fantastic f’in album
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jul 7, 2011 8:35 AM CDT reply actions
i'll check it out
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jul 7, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
traditions die hard
like the speed guy #1, bat-handler #2.
Why not Ramirez #1, AJ #2? Put the ball in play, and work the pitchers.
that's the word on the street.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
This is top notch work Merkin
CHICAGO — The Juan Pierre/Dayan Viciedo debate, if there ever really was a debate with manager Ozzie Guillen, his staff and his charges fully supportive of their leadoff hitter, has been virtually silenced by Pierre hitting .385 with seven RBIs in his last 10 games.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I agree, our problems are all over.
Pierre is totally back.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Jul 7, 2011 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions
what did you expect from merk?
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jul 7, 2011 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions
i have an extra reason to dislike pierre.
i had a 16 game streak going on “beat the streak” and on july 3rd i picked juan pierre. my reasoning was pierre was looking extremely hitterish (11 hits in his previous 6 games) and the sox were facing rodrigo lopez. mrs. buehrleman urged me not to do it. i tried to justify my choice but was met with cynicism and derision.
if you don’t recall july 3rd let’s just say that i now have a 3 game streak. (which coincides with mrs. buehrleman’s 3 day streak of “i told you not to do that.”.) :-(
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Mrs. Buerhleman...
I always imagine a “Mrs. Burly Man”.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Jul 7, 2011 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Paulie broke my 15 gamer yesterday
admittedly, not the best choice I could’ve made.
(‘lil grp begged me to choose JP which led to a lecture about righty-lefty splits – course ole’ Juan goes and gets 2 hits.)
by gar ridge pride on Jul 7, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
That wasn't too surprising though was it?
Juan hits lefties and righties about the same, and lefties have hit Chen better than righties.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Next up, BM picks a one-legged man to win an ass-kicking contest.
Don’t hate Pierre; that fail is all on you. Go eat your hat.
"I have no patience for the homeless. Get your old, stinky ass out!" - Terry Boers
by RWShow on Jul 7, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
lay off. you sound just like mrs. buehrleman.
while i stand by my reasoning i would say i would be unlikely to make the same decision again.
fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice… won’t get fooled again.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
"virtually silenced"
means his neighbor has moved on to talking about the Bears.
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
by greenlight on Jul 7, 2011 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's amazing to me...
that this team is still close to .500 and the top of the division.
When Ozzie suggested Morel 2nd a while ago
I went crazy, because all these things were well established about Morel. Why ozzie decided to execute this plan despite morels best efforts to show him he wasnt worthy is beyond me.
I can only hope the whitesox brass is waiting at all costs for the all star break and then we will see both a roster shakeup and possible coach firing… its my only light at the end of the tunnel right now
Quentin
Good small sample tidbit. With all the talk about hot Q! and cold Quentin the truly great undercover thing is his continued defense. All metrics seem to agree that Carlos has actually played a good defensive rf this year and has actually continued to improve.
Hot defensive streak? Probably. But it sure as hell as nice not being as worried when a ball is hit to his side that he’ll hurt himself. Even with the eye test he looks more fluid and rangy.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Hexed. 10 bucks says...
Quentin comes down with a mean case of athletes foot this weekend and his UZR plummets.
Pierre isn't a base clogger.
Base cloggers get on base.
by mechanical turk on Jul 7, 2011 9:51 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
fun fact
HoFer Luis Aparicio’s career obp is .311 (in ’59 it was .316).
I bring this up because, without thinking much about it, I had him as a lead-off prototype, without actually looking him up. For the south-side hitless wonders thing he probably was.
otoh, his slg was over .340.
by tommyjoepeters on Jul 7, 2011 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions
league average OBP cratered to .297 in 1968.
aparicio wasn’t good, but the point of reference needs to be reduced for him, since he played most of his career in an offense depressed era.
true enough
adjusting the frame of reference a little, while he was with the Sox the first time around (’56 – ’62), he/league average was .311/.341, .317/.326, .309/.322, .316/.323, .323/.328, .313/.329, .280/.325.
so during that go-go period, he/league compare, roughly .313/.326.
as you mention, the league lows ran from ’63 to ’68, where they ran .312, .315, .311, .306, .303, .297.
by tommyjoepeters on Jul 7, 2011 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
JP
Has almost exactly the league average OBP. In fact he’s up 3 points on the AL avg. Isn’t there some sabermetrosexual code that you stop whining about a player’s stat when it’s better than avg? Stop whining, lol.
by jermainesjerman on Jul 7, 2011 9:51 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Average at one thing (OBP) and well below average at everything else (power, stealing, defense) = shitty player
Keep complaining alive
by joewho112 on Jul 7, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Fair enough
But JP is clearly one of the hotter hitters in the team right now. Since May 1st he’s had a 340 OBP and a 70% steal success rate. Both are better than average. His D is average-ish, and yes, he has my power but his work ethic is ++ and you never know from the outside how much that might help. Look at how D-Rose shaped the Bulls into what they were this year with his great attitude and work ethic. It starts from the top – lineup, salary, and experience. In fact I wish Vici-Aza were up here learning from JP, not replacing him. God help us if they take after Never-Quiten instead.
by jermainesjerman on Jul 7, 2011 1:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Did you just put D rose and Juan Pierre in the same sentence?
WTF?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
somebody is buying Ozzie's claim that the Sox "Know he is (JP) our leader"
What is even more ridiculous is the assumption that nobody else works hard and therefor they need Juan fucking Pierre to come in and reshape the team
Yes, recently Juan Pierre is the tallest midget
Since May 1 he’s attempted 11 stolen bases despite 82 combined walks and hits. Do you seriously think this is acceptable from a player whose speed and stolen base acumen is supposed to be one of his primary tools?
Your Rose/Pierre comparison is also ludicrous.
And a 70% steal rate is not beneficial.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
75%
is beneficial. You want him out b/c of that 5%? Don’t you think the fact that he has gotten better might mean he’s . . . still getting better? He stole at 75% for his career and he is the active career leader for SB. Think he’s got old man legs? Well he stole at a 79% clip last year when he swiped a career high 68 bases.
Not everyone on your line up is going to be an amazing 5 tool player with options on his rookie K getting the league minimum. I know you guys don’t actually expect that. However those of you still hounding on JP to be gone before Tehan, Morel, Rios, Becks, and Dunn just want to get rid of the one black player on the team. If it was a white dude struggling in JP’s place I 100% guarantee he wouldn’t be the lightning rod. There wouldn’t be articles in the trib (admittedly written by a moron) acknowledging the anti-JP bandwagon and making arguments that its disproportionate to the suck.
I hope I aggravated the shit out of you JP haters.
by jermainesjerman on Jul 7, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, scott podsednik got no heat
and everyone at the ballpark is handling dunn with kid gloves, etc. please.
by Craig Grebeck on Jul 7, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i thought 80% was the target or its not really worth it.
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
75% is break even on average
I believe if you factor in game situation (i.e. you rarely steal with a big lead or deficit) 75% could be net positive
Pretty sure Jim had a pretty good aritcle on SoxMachine
on the WPA of stealing or something. And so did FanGraphs at one point. Pretty good reads.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Jul 7, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
which is why we want him replaced with Viciedo
derp
I'd just as soon never hear another word from that fluttering asswheel. - RWShow
OMG I went to lunch at the wrong time huh?
yeah THAT’S it. I want all the black people off the White Sox.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Jul 7, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Lol. This article is written about Morel.
…still hounding on JP to be gone before Tehan, Morel, Rios, Becks, and Dunn just want to get rid of the one black player on the team.
Our offense indiscriminately sucks, and we talk about everyone. Oh, and you can also tell we’re racist because we’re calling for a white person to replace him. …Oh wait.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Jul 7, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Using 2011's run expectancy matrix
I got 71.5% for steal of 2nd with no one else on.
by 3E8 on Jul 7, 2011 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
quite litterally flagged
that was the dumbest shit ive read in quite some time.
fool.
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
I'd rather have that Twins fan around.
by Grinder in Training on Jul 7, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
you sure? how about neither.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
uh... no.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
If you say natetheskate three times in the mirrior, the lights go out and he appears in the mirrior and quotes random passages from The Stranger.
Fact
by joewho112 on Jul 7, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
can't wait to see how many of those twins mopes decide to show up in tonight's game thread.
i may just skip it altogether.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
defend the turf?
seems like i’m the only one that doesn’t think he belongs on here. i almost never interact with the trolls either except to tell them to go back to hell which, while not meant literally, is my jokey way of letting them know of my general feeling of their existence.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I've been on this guys ass since post #1.
He quite obviously a troll and he has caused me to break Noose’s standards.
Hey, I like the French. Be nice.
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jul 7, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought you liked the Greek.
Hi-yooooooooooo! ;)
by winningugly on Jul 7, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I have a softball game at 7:30 and then goto the bar
I will be glad not to participate in tonights game thread and if we kick their asses, you might not hear from me all weekend.
On second thought you will hear from me
On Saturday in the bottom of the fifth with no outs you will be able to hear me yell, “Long live WU” into the Fox camera mics.
nice going
now we get treated to another roman candle about nate the snake.
by tommyjoepeters on Jul 7, 2011 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you suggestion Carlos Quentin doesn't have a good work ethic?
If so, based on what?
AJ Pierzynski: You have to want to catch.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jul 7, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I would not suggestion that myself, and I am shock that someone else would!
"I have no patience for the homeless. Get your old, stinky ass out!" - Terry Boers
Batting Order is Irrelevent!
Because, except for PK none of are hitting.
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
Especially with RISP
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
Ozzie
Ozzie is ruining the Sox chances this year with poor decisions (morel #2, dunn #3)! Jerry, please wake up from your coma and fire both Kenny & Ozzie!! They got lucky once in 10 years and now their act is old. Let’s see what Hahn Cora can do with fresh ideas!!
I had some Hahn Cora with dinner last night, a little spicy
as much as Ozzie can be a stubborn terd, he’s not the main reason for this team falling on it’s face. I’m with everyone on the Pierre nonsense, but other than fixing that problem, what is he going to do? Is it his fault that Dunn and Rios are having terrible seasons? You’re not going to be able to make a five course dinner with spam, ramen noodles and ketchup. The only way this team is going to go anywhere is for Dunn and Rios to start hitting. He has shuffled them all over the lineup and nothing has worked. Cora isn’t going to have some crystal ball to make everything click. The players need to get their sh*t together and start producing – this doesn’t really fall on the coaching staff.
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's horseshit (pardon my french)
How about using options that might improve your chances? How about stop saying and tweeting stupid shit like you don’t have room on your squad for a hitter when you have 4-5 black holes in the lineup.
Its not the coaching staff’s fault that Dunn and Rios hasn’t hit but that doesn’t excuse the other nonsense.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
ever think Ozzie is protecting his players and not calling them out?
ever think he is basically having to be the fall guy for the organization for keeping Viciedo in AAA due to MLB years vested/his contract?
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
yep Ozzie is the fall guy.
His lack of concept on the art of scoring runs from lineup construction, bunting and player usage is all an attempt to cover for his players and not call them out, even though on countless times he has called them out. He doesn’t really believe that Juan Pierre is good at baseball. I have never considered that he’s “just a patsy.”
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
ah, so you believe that if he changed the lineup to some knew and improved lineup
and benched Pierre that the team would start all of a sudden scoring runs? I think the bigger picture here is that the guys that are paid to knock in runs, Rios and Dunn, have fallen on their face.
I also don’t buy for a second that Ozzie saying he doesn’t have room for DV is the reason he isn’t being called up.
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
At a certain point it made sense for the White Sox to wait for Viceido.
Besides that if you don’t think or believe KW when he says I want to respect my manager’s position for now I don’t know what to tell you.
Its pure folly and common for folks to advance thoughts like “if we made this change output would only increase x amount and that’s not enough.” so of course the answer is “let’s do nothing!”
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I go back to Beckham
KW didn’t really cede to Ozzie’s demands then. I think the same would hold true here. What is said publicly and what is said behind closed doors could very well be a completely different story.
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Ozzie wasn't much of a fan of bringing him up in 2009.
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
To start the season he wasn't.
It was pretty clear how he felt about Betemit and the 3rd base situation at the time.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
you mean the whole if he's here, we're in trouble thing.
so after a reasonable period of two months, also magically after super two status was avoided, they recognized they were in trouble with fields and getz.
im starting to think they really messed him up
jerking him around on the field and not letting him develop in the minors seems to have severely stunted the sss favorite.
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
by e-gus on Jul 7, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is kinda hard to know
Maybe his current level of production is just the hitter he is, even if fans hoped for more.
And since he has played defense so well at second base, I’m skeptical about the jerking around the field thing being an issue.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
they didn't really have much choice.
Another assistant general manager agreed. "The reality is that from April to October, we exist in a very imperfect world. Players get hurt, players under-perform, and any number of things can and do go wrong with the big-league team. If we believe that a player in Triple-A, or even Double-A, can help us win right now, even if it may not be the absolute best thing for his career, we have a responsibility to make that happen."
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=13646
they could have traded konerko
for figgins and kotchman.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
yeah, i know they didnt have anything better-
and thats a big problem with having one of weaker farms, but by throwing early picks into the bigs I think it might be hurting them in the long run.
sale and beckham, even morel could have probably used more seasoning.
look at viciedo- he seems to have blossomed, does he experience the same growth at this level? its impossible for me to say, but I just feel like the other 29 teams develop players like that for a reason.
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
Walker will fix him, don't worry.
"I have no patience for the homeless. Get your old, stinky ass out!" - Terry Boers
while it would obviously be helpful if they started hitting
i don’t buy that is the only way the white sox get to the playoffs. the white sox have internal options. and, yeah, it’s on the coaching staff – not just the front office – to say the players i have aren’t getting it done, we’re going to stop batting them third and maybe we’d consider not playing them at all if we had some other/better options to choose from.
So you think Ozzie is really blocking Viciedo being called up?
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
blocking?
stronger word than i would use. however, i certainly believe that if ozzie asked KW to get viciedo on the team so ozzie could play him, it would happen. if you want to deem not asking to be “blocking”, so be it.
he's stated that there isn't room for him on the roster, which I would take as "blocking"
but that is what has been said publicly. Also, he isn’t lying, of course there would have to be a corresponding roster move made.
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
yes, there isn't room for him on the roster when you continue telling your boss that the players you have are fine, just look at the back of their baseball cards.
as for the corresponding roster move, that’s not hard. ozzie also has said viciedo will be in the starting lineup when he gets here. that means the corresponding roster move would necessarily require one of his starters being moved or benched. which ozzie isn’t willing to do.
Pretty nuts...not sure if everyone has seen this - Longoria's Catch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMujgAAyH-I
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
MUST. BUY. GILLETTE.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jul 7, 2011 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
well, I'm an idiot...
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
No argument there.
And my 75 year-old Dad sent me that about a month ago. He barely knows how to turn on a computer. So there’s that.
by winningugly on Jul 7, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
he's either lying about his age or he somehow helped conceive you at age nine.
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
what is it? - media blocked where I working atm
I remember Winningugly and Hoodlight always being the good guys.
Video of Longoria catching a line drive with his bare hand
while being interviewed by a reporter along the foul line in left field.
i can catch bare handed - either hand it's nothing to shout about.
I remember Winningugly and Hoodlight always being the good guys.
by hoodlight on Jul 7, 2011 3:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I really like this piece from the Tribune
I don’t know if Viciedo has all the answers (He may suck when called), but I believe fans would appreciate at least trying to get this team going…
When Chen baffles the Sox the same week as Felipe Paulino and Rodrigo Lopez — not exactly Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz — it weakens manager Ozzie Guillen’s argument that he can’t find room on the roster for a dangerous right-handed power hitter. Guillen and GM Ken Williams need to agree to look harder before the Sox swing-and-miss out of the AL Central race.
Find a muscle strain nagging Alex Rios or Adam Dunn and give either struggling veteran still in the lineup because of his salary two weeks to refresh on the 15-day disabled list. Shop Mark Teahen even if it means eating some of his contract, unless the Sox can’t live without his .217 batting average. Do something, anything but stand pat, Kenny, or else a division there for the taking threatens to slip away because of anemic hitting.
If you chase two rabbits both will escape!
so cheat
"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."
by BobbySouthSide on Jul 7, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Why the hell isn't DFA'ing Juan Pierre an option?
They’d probably have to eat more than the $3m it would cost to DFA Pierre in order to trade Teahen, plus Teahen is more versatile and has more power than Pierre. Why on earth would a savvy businessman like Reinsdorf allow $3m of sunk costs to torpedo his $120m investment?
Because he's consistent.
For reasons that escape me, the City That Works struggles to embrace the hardest-working baseball player in Chicago, someone who approaches each game as if he’s clocking in.
You know who you are. Outside the White Sox clubhouse, you have made it trendy to doubt the ability of left fielder Juan Pierre. […]
He doesn’t bring attention to himself or occasionally loaf like, say, his left-field counterpart with the Cubs, Alfonso Soriano. He arrives early and stays late. He epitomizes the type of athlete Chicago typically celebrates, not denigrates. Not that Pierre’s complaining.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Jul 7, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
trendsetters!
but does anyone ever truly know who they really are?
"A lot of misinformation," the source said.
Conspiracy theorists I tell you!
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
pierre is probably a better player than teahen.
even considering the hole pierre has dug himself, he’ll probably end up with a better WAR (as an example). singing the praises of teahen isn’t the winning argument for your point.
so you're discounting my feeling that if teahen played more
he might smash the ball? for some reason he just looks so darn hitterish to me.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
No one would discount your feelings, BM.
That would be too “Mars”-like. We are such a Venusian site.
Go ahead. Talk about your feelings. We’re here for you.
Landlocked?
Is this lineup/team truly lacking the right moves? I’ll scratch possible players (rightly or wrongly) as if I were Ozzy.
1. Pierre, Lillibridge—high avg., speed, high OPS, SB
2. Morel, Lillibridge, AJ, Alexi, Beckham—contact guy, good bunter, limited GB’s, drives ball to RF
3. Dunn, Quentin, Konerko—-high avg., power, high OPS
4. Konerko, Quentin, Dunn—-RBI guy, power guy, contact guy
5. Quentin, Alexi, Rios, Dunn—-power, RBI guy, extra base hits
6. AJ, Lillibridge, Alexi, Rios, Dunn, Teahen—-RBI guy, power
7. Alexi, Vizquel, Beckham, Dunn, Rios, Teahen—-takes walks & works counts but strikes out, some power
8. Rios, Morel, Beckham, Lillibridge, Vizquel—-can get on base, bunter
9. Beckham, Morel, Rios, Vizquel—-speed (?), not great hitter, gets on base
Bold is the actual lineup. I’m not sure how dead on I am with each spot, but I figuratively penciled in guys as if I were spitballing (with today’s hindsight, hehe) before the start of the season. Pierre’s recent surge helps him, but at the expense of Dayan? Conversely, who is the leadoff if Pierre is dealt away? I don’t know who else is a possible leadoff guy, so please feel free to add. Is Lillibridge a viable option if Juan is gone? If so, what if ‘Bridge doesn’t fit the bill? Now there’s no leadoff guy IMHO.
I’m baffled by the protection of Morel, but he’s fielded 3B well. Perhaps that’s the hang-up with sending Brent down in place of Viciedo? Teahen is on a steady decline offensively since 2005 & doesn’t provide any help here.
It bears repeating the 3 guys that are killing this lineup are Dunn, Rios & Beckham.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Irish Catholic
you figure it out from there.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hah.
My local newspaper is promoting an event where a band will be playing songs from 60s bands including “The Monkeys”. Should be interesting. I wonder if they will fling poo at the audience.
"Keep trying to hit home runs and you'll end up playing in Mexico" - Ozzie Guillen's advice to Brent Lillibridge
All Aboard!!! Hhahahahahaha
new team motto
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
you know, leadoff is not some round hole.
pierre and lillibridge both are not good at baseball. it’s not hard to find players on this roster who are okay or even good at baseball. the primary requirement for the player who gets the most at-bats should be that he is reasonably good at offense.
OK
so I ask, “Who would you put at leadoff?” Konerko, Q!, AJ, Alexi, etc? All good offensive guys but of the 3 Alexi is the only one with speed.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
4 that is...
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
duh
che
beckham
konerko
quentin
dunn
rios
aj
pierre
morel
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
duh?
confused about that…but, I’m assuming this is your order?
Alexi-agreed & I did state this.
I’m not sure how dead on I am with each spotBeckham-don’t think so .300 OPS
Koenrko, Q!, Dunn (?), Rios (?)- doubtful, IF I’m thinking like Ozzy, speed is a must (that’s how I prefaced my lineup)
Aj-OK, but see above.
Pierre-
Morel-.269 OBP & 3 BB
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
order for leadoff that is
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
The archaic fascination with having a speedy "leadoff type" isn't going to win you many arguments around here.
Speed is worthless is you can’t get on base to do anything with it. As was stated above, our current Cuban shortstop would be a fairly ideal fit for the job.
Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death
I agree with the premise
& I brought up Bridge because he has a .816 OPS & .345 OBP. Honestly, I failed to type in Alexi. He fits just as well. But I still think speed is a factor as stated by wu example below…
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
If Lillibridge was likely to be anywhere near that level for the rest of the year, he would be fine to bat first.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
true & no I don't think the #'s will hold up
Curious, what are Alexi’s past numbers at leadoff? Has he batted leadoff before. I don’t remember.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
the leadoff man should be your best batter
as he will get more at bats that way
I remember Winningugly and Hoodlight always being the good guys.
by hoodlight on Jul 7, 2011 3:52 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
are you taking the piss or serious?
yes, it is a very fine and healthy budgie – lol. I had to look after some last year and that’s a pic I took. I like budgies but my cat alas is not a big fan.
I remember Winningugly and Hoodlight always being the good guys.
by hoodlight on Jul 7, 2011 3:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Haha, taking the piss. You islanders are funny.
My family has one. I hate it. It just sits there and tries to bite you whenever you get near it. I keep trying to let it outside.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Jul 7, 2011 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
must be a hen, cock birds rarely bite
it’s cruel to keep them alone – they are flock birds after all maybe if she had a mate she wouldn’t be so agressive.
I remember Winningugly and Hoodlight always being the good guys.
by hoodlight on Jul 7, 2011 4:35 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Theory on Dunn
First, let me state that it is getting painful to watch games. Good pitching going to waste thanks to continual feeble attempts at an offense is giving me ulcers. Heavy drinking doesn’t seem to help. If I hear Hawk say, “Two men on with nobody out and we can’t do a thing with them” one more time, I will projectile vomit. Thank God for the weak division.
Secondly, my apologies if the theory on Dunn below has already been brought forth and/or beaten to death.
Is there a chance Dunn just has a bad case of the yips? He comes from smaller market teams where he was a big fish. Now he’s in Chicago playing on a team that is always in the relentless sports media spotlight where he’s just one guy among several big (local) personalities – most notably AJ, Peavy, Buehrle, Ozzie, and Paulie.
I’d like to buy into the “switching to DH is a big deal” theory, but the huge performance drop off is a real head scratcher. I think his limp bat might be the result of having the “big city yips.”
"Keep trying to hit home runs and you'll end up playing in Mexico" - Ozzie Guillen's advice to Brent Lillibridge
On this date in...
1982
Harold Baines hits three consecutive home runs, including a grand slam, to lead the White Sox over the Tigers, 7-0.
2010
Adam Dunn becomes the second Washington Nationals’ player to hit three home runs in a game, and the first major leaguer to accomplish the feat at the three-year old National Park. The first baseman’s offensive output, which matches Alfonso Soriano’s performance in 2006, helps the home team edge San Diego, 7-6, on a very warm night in the nation’s capital.
(From nationalpastime.com)
"Keep trying to hit home runs and you'll end up playing in Mexico" - Ozzie Guillen's advice to Brent Lillibridge
by tailgater on Jul 7, 2011 1:32 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
You are a cruel man
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Jul 7, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed
"I wonder if converting Peavy to a closer role would be best? Help keep him healthy and help solidify the pen a bit." - Bent Over Beckham
Perhaps Harold should be coaching Dunn and not Walker
"Keep trying to hit home runs and you'll end up playing in Mexico" - Ozzie Guillen's advice to Brent Lillibridge
haven't had the time to actually put this together; would have been a reply to someone further up at some point or maybe even a front page post
in any event, while lineup construction and leadoff hitters are often much ado about not much, here’s a reminder of what the sox are doing with their their first innings and, by extension, first three hitters.
teams normally score the most runs in the first inning. the reasons for this should be obvious but, if you want some ruminations on that, take a look at this link.
in 2011, AL teams are scoring .47 runs on average in the first. the white sox are scoring .42 runs. just in that inning, extended over a full season, the white sox are performing about a win (about 8 runs) less than average. the first inning is the third lowest run-scoring inning for the white sox.
you can also look at the distribution of average runs per inning at that link above. the second inning, which is normally the second lowest run scoring inning (the 9th is the lowest, again for reasons that should be obvious), is the highest run scoring inning for the white sox at .50 runs. the particular reasons for this should again be obvious: the white sox’ good hitters don’t come up as much in the first inning because there’s horseshit in the first three spots. when the good hitters do come up, the white sox score. this isn’t exactly a hard issue to fix.
by larry on Jul 7, 2011 3:36 PM CDT reply actions 9 recs
Thanks for this post, larry.
Replacing Pierre with a non-leadoffy type like Viciedo seems like it would have a noticeable impact on the offense simply because of what it would do with the batting order.
by mechanical turk on Jul 7, 2011 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
so what you're saying is
we suck at hitting/scoring.
For the record (although it may be too late), my bold guys above are the Sox actual lineup & not who I would pick. Anyway, the “All in,” thing it what’s most irritating. Make the damned adjustment(s) & see what works. No room to be conservative.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
no. that's not what i'm saying.
the white sox are eminently average in hitting/scoring. they would be better at it, however, if they would stop having arguably their three worst hitters receive the most plate appearances.
eminently average
sums up their record
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Paul Konerko has hit one home run with runners in scoring position.
That means he’s hit 21 where there was only a runner on first, or the bases were empty. The Sox NEED to get runners on ahead of Konerko if they want to score runs. And batting Pierre-Morel-Dunn in front of him is exactly the opposite of getting runners on. Didn’t AJ bat second and third for a good part of 2009? Why can’t he do that again?
The Great Ballparks Tour 2011! Rogers Centre August 29, Yankee Stadium September 2, Citizens Bank Park September 5, Nationals Park September 6!
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