Closerless bullpen great for everybody - except the closer

by Jim Margalus on Aug 16, 2011 9:43 AM CDT in Analysis

Ozzie Guillen used Sergio Santos as the closer, but he never officially named him the closer. Now, Santos is finding out why:

Guillen wants to manage his bullpen.

This shouldn't be as unusual as it is across baseball, but it certainly caught Santos by surprise. He expressed confusion to Doug Padilla -- because he's not getting all the save opportunities -- and he did it in the way that really grinds my gears. And it makes me wonder why closers don't annoy their teammates more often.

Boilerplate quotes include:

"You would like a defined role and know when you're going to pitch and everything."
"It's not ideal but we have that luxury of having that."
"Once you have one set guy it's usually just defined there. Now it's: 'Is it you? Is it me?' That kind of thing."

Yes, Santos doesn't know exactly when he's going to pitch. Which means he's battling the problems that 85 percent of relievers have to deal with -- and Santos dealt with it last year. Everybody seems to survive.

Below is a chart featuring the six members of the White Sox bullpen, and the situation they entered over their last five appearances (beginning with most recent).

Pitcher	1	2	3	4	5
Jesse Crain	7th, down 1	7th, tie	7th, ahead 2	7th, down 2	8th, down 10
Jason Frasor	7th, up 4	8th, down 2	9th, tie	8th, up 1	8th, up 1
Will Ohman	3rd, down 7	7th, up 1	9th, tie	7th, down 2	9th, up 4
Chris Sale	8th, down 1	9th, up 2	7th, up 1	8th, up 1	9th, up 1
Matt Thornton	8th, up 4	8th, down 2	8th, up 1	9th, up 7	8th, down 3
Sergio Santos	9th, up 3	9th, up 1	9th, up 1	9th, up 5	9th, down 11

Santos might not have his paint-by-numbers role, but he has the roliest role of anybody: If he's going to pitch, it's almost always going to be in the ninth, and with a lead. He just doesn't get every lead yet, which leads to "confusion," which leads to me being confused as to why only one pitcher in a bullpen is enabled to expect that kind of comfort.

But hey -- expecting saves is part of being a closer, and Santos is new to the game. He idolizes Mariano Rivera, and it's going to be a lot harder to get to 600 saves when Chris Sale takes half of them.

That said, I'd rather focus on how Guillen responded to Santos' inquiry:

"I kind of let them know if it's a situation that goes by lefty hitters it's not because I worry or am afraid about what Santos can do," Guillen said. "It's just I feel more comfortable with that. We've been doing that for the last two weeks and it's worked out pretty good for us -- maybe even more than that."

This is terrific, and not just because Guillen isn't kowtowing to the save stat. Padilla deserves some credit for talking about multiple ninth-inning relievers without using the word "committee," which quickly turns into the Scarlet C.

Since the All-Star break, White Sox pitchers have recorded 10 saves (nine actual saves, plus one that Guillen made ineligible with a two-out pitching change). Here's what they've done in the ninth inning:

10 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 12 K

That's mostly the work of Santos and Sale, with a dash of Thornton in the mix. Does it matter if one pitcher is getting the results versus three? I certainly don't think so.

Everybody is doing what they are paid to do. The relievers are expected to record important outs -- whether they're the last three or in the sixth inning -- and Guillen is expected to use his intuition to deploy his pitchers accordingly. It's going swimmingly for everybody Santos, but the only sure way he'll grab a greater share of the glory is if his teammates start botching games. That's not a scenario that reflects well on anybody.

This one is much, much better, because everybody is maxing out their talents, and it's leading to wins. Hopefully Santos will realize that he's a contributor to a unique and successful situation, and not a victim of it.

Tweet Comment 94 comments | 6 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

with all the defense and the bullpen and starting pitching

it’d be nice if the bats could make some more runs

by Barold on Aug 16, 2011 9:52 AM CDT reply actions

Good piece.

I don’t mind Santos wanting the ball. Thornton never talked about that when he was “closer” and pitched like he didn’t embrace it. You want the Alpha Male wanting the ball. A little hubris in a kid is OK. Ozzie can take it, especially when he is producing.

by winningugly on Aug 16, 2011 9:55 AM CDT reply actions

I somehow can't equate Alpha Male with the Kenny Williams scene in The Club.

"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd

by South Side Expat on Aug 16, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions

And in other news...

Mini-Fridge requested a meeting with Ozzie and Walk to know during which innings he could expect to hit.

White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.

by greenlight on Aug 16, 2011 9:59 AM CDT reply actions

great article and

I couldn’t agree more. One of the bright spots of Ozzie’s managerial season has been his much more effective and aggressive bullpen management, particularly after the break and more so even more recently. But I don’t care if Santos mouths off if he keeps getting it done. Ozzie won’t let that change how he manages.
One thing that can be said for relievers and ‘knowing their role’ is that in many pens there is a closer, one or two 7th or 8th inning guys, a left handed specialist, perhaps a long man and whomever else. Even though this is an unimaginative model that usually doesn’t maximize the talents of the pitchers (with the obvious exception of the left handed specialist), I think that each of the relievers actually does know when they could most likely end up pitching in games in this conventional model that JM and I don’t care for. Having said that, who cares if they know when they’ll pitch. They’ll know when they need to know. Ozzie and Coop will make sure they have enough time to get warm.

by ERM on Aug 16, 2011 10:00 AM CDT reply actions

3.5 out now....

Gamblers out there, sox were 50-1 to win it all as of two days ago, havent checked it today, but with 40 games to play and that small a deficit its worth throwing a few bucks on, anything can happen in the playoffs and far crazier things have happened then a team with a good staff and great bullpen winning in october, granted the offense is still an absolute mess.

I love the way ozzie is using the bullpen, we have quality arms from both sides at the back end and dictating matchups late in games is crucial in a playoff run. While I have little to no faith in ozzie writing down names in a batting order that make sense, his use of his staff and pen is usually pretty solid.

by Knoxfire30 on Aug 16, 2011 10:17 AM CDT reply actions

i got 30/1 back in late june.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Aug 16, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions

I got 50-1 in May

Buddy and I. 40 to win 2 grand.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 16, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions

nice

yea by no means do I think the sox are a serious contender, but 50-1 i thought was insulting, and a good opportunity to atleast make a move

by Knoxfire30 on Aug 16, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions

Nice odds.

Better than your bets with me.

by winningugly on Aug 16, 2011 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions

dream on

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 16, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions

I just joined bodog

They only were giving 45-1 but what the hell. I dropped a 20.

by oahu420 on Aug 16, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions

Still decent for you as things currently sit.

25% chance at the Central, 1/8 shot from there. That’s 32-1.

by 3E8 on Aug 16, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions

that is pretty good

bodog is usually good if you like to play dogs

by 815Sox on Aug 17, 2011 1:32 AM CDT up reply actions

I'm sure santos is just thinking

that he has been doing a bang up job for the most part and doesn’t get why his saves are being given to sale.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Aug 16, 2011 10:17 AM CDT reply actions

Again, for a guy who has been given this amazing 2nd chance, you would think

that he would love the fact that he is being managed so well which has allowed him to break a Mariano record already. I’m with Jim in the fact that this irks me.

"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd

by South Side Expat on Aug 16, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions

he wasn't given anything. he earned it.

by larry on Aug 16, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions

He was given an opportunity that he might not have otherwise had if the Sox had a better Minor league system.

"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd

by South Side Expat on Aug 16, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions

he made the most of his opportunity, which is certainly earning it

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Aug 16, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions

that is not true at all.

kansas city has a fantastic farm system. brian anderson was permitted to pitch in it.

by larry on Aug 16, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions

What part of you won't cut it as an infielder but we are going to GIVE you a chance at pitching

isn’t true?

"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd

by South Side Expat on Aug 16, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions

ok but he took that chance and ran with it and has been pretty dominant for the most part.

so i’m sure he is thinking he is doing the job… reward him with the saves. i’m not saying he’s right or wrong but i can see where he is coming from.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Aug 16, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions

No doubt he has taken the chance and run with it.

Still, people in the organization were the ones to recognize where his talent is, and have done a great job in managing that talent to get him where he is now. He shouldn’t turn around and go question that.

"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd

by South Side Expat on Aug 16, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions

but even that "gift" is earned to some degree

A player has to have qualities that make a team want to give that opportunity.

Even if he didn’t pan out as a position player, he must have shown the kind of makeup and “want to” that makes a team willing to look at his arm and say what the hell. That isn’t the kind of opportunity that goes to guys who don’t give a crap and are disruptive.

by Titan52 on Aug 16, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions

I wonder how much the Win and Save stats matter in arbitration hearings.

It’d be pretty comical for the Sox to use it against a guy like Santos in a few years. “Well, sure, his ERA is low and he strikes out a zillion people, but WHERE ARE THE SAVES???”

So long as those stats play a role in the kind of money a player makes, I think it’s probably a legitimate gripe.

"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."

by RWShow on Aug 16, 2011 10:27 AM CDT reply actions

this

brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight

by whitesoxmatt on Aug 16, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions

When was the last time the Sox went to arbitration?

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Aug 16, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions

Keith Foulke, I think.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Aug 16, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions

every time i hear that name I think of Billy Koch.

then I ball up in the fetal position and start bawling.

He's streaky. I heard you the first 100 times. I don't care. Ride or die. -tdogg on c quentin

by e-gus on Aug 16, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions

I couldn't stand Foulke.

I quickly learned to miss him.

"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."

by RWShow on Aug 16, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions

So you didn't like his changeup? blasphemy

by Rhubarb on Aug 16, 2011 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions

My hunch would be saves would matter more than wins

Just because I would think the save number would be something that could really shift a guy’s pool of comparable players in a way that wins might not.

And whether you go to arb or settle, the comps really shape the deal.

by Titan52 on Aug 16, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions

was going to say this as well

"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza

by BoeJouma on Aug 16, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions

Jim's been banging the flexible ninth drum for quite a while now

I was always skeptical, just because pitchers always played the “defined role” card – but Santos saying that now with the results it’s having, I’ll tip my hat on this one. Doesn’t look like there’s much of a downside to it.

by Shinons* on Aug 16, 2011 10:34 AM CDT reply actions

I don't know when each individual reliever is going to mess up and lose a game

so I would appreciate it if they would tell us beforehand which games they’ll pitch well in and preserve a win, and which one’s they’ll blow and lose.

My role as a fan needs, no, deserves more certainty.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 16, 2011 10:34 AM CDT reply actions 11 recs

The one out saves are kind of weird..

And in general, Ozzie his bullpen management this year has been unique (a good thing in my opinion). I don’t think it should surprise anyone that a guy who is new to pitching is a bit confused with his role in a non-traditional bullpen. It’s not like he’s been doing this for 10 years.

Maybe he should have kept his comments to himself, but he’s done a good job as a closer, I can’t blame him that he expects to be used in a traditional role, that under most other managers he’s earned at this point.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 16, 2011 10:51 AM CDT reply actions

the one out saves have worked perfectly, because Santos got several easy low pressure saves and now thinks he is the man.

He's streaky. I heard you the first 100 times. I don't care. Ride or die. -tdogg on c quentin

by e-gus on Aug 16, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions

I didn't say it hasn't worked..

I said I think Ozzie’s bullpen management has been good. But, it’s certainly not normal, and for a guy like Santos who is new to this as it is, I’m sure it seems odd. I just don’t think it should be much of a surprise, that a guy who is new to this whole thing doesn’t understand everything that goes with his role. It’s not like he’s asking to be traded or something.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 16, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions

He might be buying into this notion of "roles" that old-school baseball minds love

While I don’t expect Ozzie to start using Santos in the 6th or the 7th inning were a high leverage situation to warrant, I like that he’s at least thinking outside of the box a little bit and not managing “by the book” like other managers would. There’s no reason the relievers you use in the 7th, 8th, and 9th innings can’t be somewhat interchangeable.

by moroots on Aug 16, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions

i am very happy we have done away with the closer

the one out saves are stupid though. knock that crap out ozzie.

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Aug 16, 2011 11:03 AM CDT reply actions

I think Santos role is to pitch well whenever.

I don’t understand why there is a need for some pitchers to be “called” the closer of xyz team. If Santos has some doubts about being the WhiteSox closer, then he is not very bright. I mean, the guy closes more than 90% of the time. He is the closer. Guillen does not want to call him closer? That’s another topic, and I am with Guillen on this one. Does Santos need a title? Sure, I give him one: Relief Pitcher. I believe the term “Closer” is a media invention that some relief pitchers use to their advantage and cash in more hefty contracts. A closer in simply the best relief pitcher of a team. nothing more and nothing else. I like Guillen’s idea to have the freedom to put in the mound the best pitcher he thinks gives him the best chance to win. That pitcher needs to be ready regardless of the title of closer.

If you chase two rabbits both will escape!

by JofpGallagher on Aug 16, 2011 11:18 AM CDT reply actions

The closer is not always the best reliever of a team

Matt Thornton was better than Jenks for a few years, and several other teams use closers who are inferior to their setup guys.

by ceverettsdinosaurs on Aug 16, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions

I disagree...but I agree

Bobby Jenks was a better 9th inning situational pitcher than Thornton. Thornton was (is) a better reliever in general.

If you chase two rabbits both will escape!

by JofpGallagher on Aug 16, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions

nonsense.

by craigws on Aug 16, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions

i think thornton had a few noticable hiccups with the closer tag.

it could have been a coincidence, but he didnt right the ship until he was back in the set up role.

He's streaky. I heard you the first 100 times. I don't care. Ride or die. -tdogg on c quentin

by e-gus on Aug 16, 2011 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions

Yep.

"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."

by RWShow on Aug 16, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions

Juan Pierre had some hiccups of his own.

If we had an average LF early in the season, he may have been able to hold on to his job.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 16, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions

a valid point

He's streaky. I heard you the first 100 times. I don't care. Ride or die. -tdogg on c quentin

by e-gus on Aug 16, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions

Maybe we need a left-fielder closer.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 16, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions

We have one.. he's just closing RF and 1B right now.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 16, 2011 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions

All Juan Pierre did was expose some shitty pitching on Thornton's part

Thornton did himself no favors. I remember a few 4 pitch walks when he could least absorb them.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 16, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions

he wasn't pitching that well, but would probably have been fine if not for pierre.

by craigws on Aug 16, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions

some ninth inning splits:

thornton: 95.0 ip – 2.94 era – 3.66 K/BB
big bad bobby: 267.1 ip – 3.47 era – 3.4 K/BB

by craigws on Aug 16, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions

there you go...... using logic and shit again

I just don’t feel like the fight today for the cause.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 16, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions

so that backs up that hes better

i didnt mean to support my south american friend with that statement, I merely wanted to point out there might have been something to the closer role that could have possibly scrambled a few synapses for easy heat.

He's streaky. I heard you the first 100 times. I don't care. Ride or die. -tdogg on c quentin

by e-gus on Aug 16, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions

thornton just hasn't been as good this year as he has over the last few years.

dunno yet if decline is the cause or if he just got mindfucked by pierre’s screwing him over.
i just took exception to the ‘bobby was the better 9th inning pitcher’ thing.

by craigws on Aug 16, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions

Craig and Tdogg refuse to entertain that notion; you're wasting your time.

"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."

by RWShow on Aug 16, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions

yeah, and Jenks was fat to boot

by moroots on Aug 16, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions

haha

He's streaky. I heard you the first 100 times. I don't care. Ride or die. -tdogg on c quentin

by e-gus on Aug 16, 2011 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions

well... even he had a redeeming quality i guess.

fat guy love.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Aug 16, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions

Those numbers look a lot better for Thornton than most realize

because in April 15 runs crossed the plate with him out there, but only half(8) were earned.

He's streaky. I heard you the first 100 times. I don't care. Ride or die. -tdogg on c quentin

by e-gus on Aug 16, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions

sss

3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10

by Kyle321N on Aug 16, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions

for a change?

If you chase two rabbits both will escape!

by JofpGallagher on Aug 16, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions

This is where a manager earns his pay

Pulling the levers of managing the game itself isn’t really an area where managers differ a whole lot. The key skill in managing is working with the personalities within the clubhouse.

Even here, looking at the table, Ozzie isn’t being completely radical in his bullpen use. It’s easy to see where Santos is coming from. Putting aside any judgment of whether it’s good or bad, the culture of relief pitching points to the closer. But his comments make it sound like Sergio isn’t getting a message that Ozzie is working to make him the most valuable pitcher he can be so much as leaving him wondering who knows what.

The confidence Sergio’s comments show is a big positive. But Ozzie needs to massage that and make sure he’s getting the right message, that he shares Sergio’s confidence and just wants to max out his value in every game.

by Titan52 on Aug 16, 2011 11:23 AM CDT reply actions

Second.

by ObsidianXIII on Aug 16, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions

on a related note

ozzie is getting some props at fangraphs for his management of the bullpen

link

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Aug 16, 2011 12:31 PM CDT reply actions

thx

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Aug 16, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions

Nothing wrong with Ozzie's approach

It allows him to pitch whom he wants based on situation or confidence level, while not putting pressure on Santos to be “the chosen one.”

On a side note, the previous mention of Billy Koch made my skin crawl…thanks.

"Why would I be hitting Cheeper dat night?" - A portion of Carlos Zambrano's denial of trying to plunk Chipper Jones to achieve an ejection.

by tailgater on Aug 16, 2011 12:43 PM CDT reply actions

BS

As long as Santos can expect to be paid well for being the chosen, he is seeing lost money every time he is not called in to close. Sale is looking at eventually making starter money. Santos will likely never get that chance. As long as saves are a stat that teams pay for and Santos hasn’t done anything to produce doubts about his abilities, he deserves to keep closing.

by justjc on Aug 16, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions