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Kenny Williams Can't Find Value

 

You sign a free agent and he doesn't work out, you can't trade him.  He's not the player the market thought he was, it's not gonna want him at the price you bought.  So you have to send him off with a couple million to get rid of him.  Or another actually talented player.  If it's money or a player, the cost is the same.  You take wins off the team to deal with the mistake.

And no, y'all know I'm not talking about Dunn.  This isn't even about him.  Adam Dunn was the model of consistency and he imploded.  I have what amount to thin guesses what happened there and if anyone else knows for sure, they are keeping their mouths shut.  Whatever you want to say, the Sox weren't bidding against themselves to get his asking price up that high.  

This is about Mark Teahen.  Teahen was a guy no one thought much of.  Kenny took a gamble and signed him to a multi-year deal.  I get the thinking.  You take a risk, he turns out to be average, all of a sudden you've got a productive guy signed for cheap.  If you want to change the direction of the team, no problem you can deal the guy and get something back.  If you like the way things are going, keep him and keep winning.  That's finding value.  Except Teahen wasn't any good.  Which is what you might expect considering it only took Josh Fields and Chris Getz to get him.  They're all basically replacement level.  But Getz is paid like it.  This one's a scouting failure.  If you see gold and everyone else sees clay, better make triple-sure you're really seein something everyone else ain't.

Star-divide

This is about Edwin Jackson neé Daniel Hudson and David Holmberg.  And again, this isn't a matter of how good Hudson and Holmberg have been.  If Hudson was average and Holmberg were filler, they still ended up giving up present and future wins for a guy whose contract runs out at the end of this year.  EJax's agent precluded any possibility of an extension.  So okay, great, we have $8M back in the pocket.  Would you rather have the $8M and an average pitcher under control well below market for 6 years or would you just want the $8M?  Jeff Marquez Zach Stewart better be hot shit.  He better be Daniel Hudson and David Holmberg.

Okay, actually, you know what?  This is about Adam Dunn.  If Mike Rizzo doesn't "screw" Kenny Williams, we don't have Adam Dunn and Edwin Jackson minus Holmberg and Hudson.  We just have Dunn.  Rizzo is the guy responsible for us being sortamaybe in the playoff hunt.

Hell, this is even about Ryan Sweeney.  Yeah.  That guy.  Of all people.  See, he ain't much.  The A's have never even given him 600 PA in a season.  They platoon him.  But he can play defense and he's an average bat against right handed pitchers.  So he gives them a guy who's a tick above average whenever he's out there for all of.  Wait for it.  $400K.  Between Sweeney and Gio Gonzalez, the A's have basically made back anything they lost in Nick Swisher.  Let's say it's somewhat less, like a win a year or something.  The difference in salary means Billy Beane can go buy those wins on the market.  And if he can't afford to then the Sox sure could have.

And of course, this is about Jake Peavy and Alex Rios.  No, you won't find the vehemence in my tone for these deals that I have for the Jackson or Swisher moves.  There is much less suggestion that Kenny didn't know what was on the line.  Both were gambles.  Both had pretty solid reasons in each's respective favor.  So it's not that I don't think he understood the risks.  

What I don't think he realized is the kind of support they'd need from the staff.  The common line running between the two is they've since become varying degrees of uncoachable.  Even Frank Thomas said that Rios needs to maybe think about doing something about that stance.  And holy hell what is the deal with their handling of Peavy post-injury when everything else health related is so immaculately conducted?  There is a player-management issue there, whatever it may be.  And then Swisher of course is the formal perfection of this sort of problem.  But I think in all cases and maybe even with Dunn,  the Sox were caught with their asses hanging in the wind due to clashes of personality.  It's fine when it's Jon Rauch.  Less so when there's $15M on the line.

If it's not obvious, this is me twisting the knife.  Jim made his point well yesterday, but I wanted more wrath-of-the-fan type substance.  Partly because so many of the issues with particular moves were seen as problematic by Sox bloggers right after a given move was made.  But partly because we've seen Kenny Williams do it so right before.  Because he's so damn likable and awesome.  That World Series team?  Bought for about $70M.  The Danks trade.  The Gavin trade.  The trade that brought Gio back.  The Borchard deal.  Signing Alexei.  Signing Dayan.  There are a ton of moves that I loved right off the bat.  There are a ton of moves that I was completely skeptical of.  But by and large they worked.  And they worked on a few simple precepts that the deals in the preceding paragraphs miss to varying degrees:

 

1) Play To Your Strengths - The Sox have Don Cooper and Herm Schneider and no one else does.  These are huge competitive advantages.  Back of my napkin says Coop and Herm are the equivalent of paying an All Star basically nothing every year.  But so it means that they can save money (re)juvenating pitchers and keeping older guys healthier for longer than they might otherwise go for.  Not to bring up Jim Thome, but he costs a lot less than Adam Dunn.  The Sox are more likely than anyone else to turn Thome into Dunn.

2) Stay Away From Long Term Deals - This hallmark used to be more of a pitcher specific thing for KW, but if you're gonna make your bones on keeping old guys and pitchers healthy, you don't need to spend the money and risk it takes to get premium guys at market.  When they perform, you just end up with market value.  When they bomb, it's a millstone.  Every win you need to get at market rate is a big risk for a team that's outside the top few.  Instead, build your value doing what you do best and...

3) Trade For What You Can't Make - Okay, so the Sox core is going to be pitching and old guys.  Trading the older gents is probably a tough sell, but everybody seems to want young pitching even though There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect.  Seriously.  Pitchers who are ranked highly by the prospect gurus have vastly underperformed compared to similarly rated bat wielding youngins. So whatever your gaps  This one is maybe more my advice to Kenny?  The Swisher deal is the closest thing to it.

 

Look at this team.  They're paying $120M for what I thought at the beginning of the year was about 88 wins.  The Tigers paid $106M.  Rangers paid $92M.  The Braves paid $91M.  They're all somewhat different in talent and composition than the Sox, but the point is you can get more for less.  A decent number of teams are doing it by following similar tenets to the ones suggested above.  

That said, I think a lot of the current problems are borne out of success.  I'm not so sure that if the Swisher deal was made in 2005 that there would have been a problem with him.  But at this point, the clubhouse seems to have taken on a very specific possibly exclusionary air.  I don't think that unproven guys would feel so entitled.  I don't begrudge them that and in fact it appeals to me.  I mean let's face it, blogging is an elitist medium.  But it also seems like it's officially costing the team wins.

On top of that, you think folks maybe got a little wary of dealing with KW over the years?  The problem with fleecing counterparts in trades is all of a sudden everyone is double- and triple-checking to make sure they're getting as much as they can from you.  They start to charge a premium and your advantage evaporates.  By contrast, no one thinks twice about trading with a moron.

Unless you're better at everything than everyone else, eventually your success is going to breed your failure.  Especially in a competitive environment.  Success leads easily to overconfidence, meanwhile your opponents are figuring out your secrets.  The old formulas collapse and new ones are needed, but your owner trusts you more than ever and figues you deserve a longer leash.  All of a sudden things fall apart.  

As long as Kenny's paying attention to what's not working and why, there's every reason to expect him to turn it around.  Isn't that the story of 2001-2005?  The other thing is, he's back behind the 8-ball with no margin for error.  He always likes to play risks and get creative, but with so little money to work with he'll be playing a lot of risks at relatively low costs.  That sounds like a recipe for the kind of innovative management that has made Kenny so fun to follow and his teams a pleasure to watch.

Comment 165 comments  |  8 recs  | 

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So wait a minute...

You’re saying that Kenny has gambled greatly, and f-ed up a bunch, and that is why he’s going to get better, and make a bunch of fun, innovative deals?

I have to go sit somewhere and think about this. You had me convinced he was garbage. No fair throwing that twist at the end.

Good article.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 1:13 PM CDT reply actions  

yeah it did kind of take a turn at the end there didnt it?

So, I say this more with admiration than anything else: I love that Kenny Williams went out and acquired the two worst players in the American League so far this year. - Joe Posnanski

by e-gus on Aug 2, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

KW is not an incompetent. As of last year, we agreed he was very likely a top 10 GM.

and the whole point of the post is that he’s not doing what he did to get where he is. i don’t really see it as a positive turn. it’s the logical conclusion.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think Jerry giving him more money ruined him.

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

i agree, but this threw me a bit
but I wanted more wrath-of-the-fan type substance

So, I say this more with admiration than anything else: I love that Kenny Williams went out and acquired the two worst players in the American League so far this year. - Joe Posnanski

by e-gus on Aug 2, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

i panned most of his major moves since 2008.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed.. we're not in third place because he's incompetent.

Even this year, outside of the Jackson and Swisher deals (both sides of them) he still built what should be a good team.

It’s not like he trotted out the Cubs or Mets roster with this payroll. Adam Dunn and Alex Rios being horseshit is the main problem and there was no way to prepare for it. Even the shitty version of Rios that the Blue Jays got rid of was dramatically better than he’s been this year. Everything else he’s done wouldn’t seem nearly so bad if those two could just stop playing like hot garbage.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right time of year

to use the “hot garbage” analogy. Man the city sure stinks these days…

"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473

by NorthSidePaulie on Aug 2, 2011 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with 100% of this.

WTF ending was that?

Great piece.

by winningugly on Aug 2, 2011 3:24 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

mmm mmm mmmmm.

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 2, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

First game at the Cell tonight.

Anyone have any recommendations around the stadium for food/beer before? Thanks.

by polodude017 on Aug 2, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

bacardi at the park is pretty nice, good food too

but its not cheap by any means

So, I say this more with admiration than anything else: I love that Kenny Williams went out and acquired the two worst players in the American League so far this year. - Joe Posnanski

by e-gus on Aug 2, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

anywhere outside the stadium?

or is the area as bad as the “stigma” around south side?

by polodude017 on Aug 2, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

where are you coming from?

So, I say this more with admiration than anything else: I love that Kenny Williams went out and acquired the two worst players in the American League so far this year. - Joe Posnanski

by e-gus on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Swissotel on Whacker.

My bad, figured the “at the park” meant it was in the park.

by polodude017 on Aug 2, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

i assume you are taking the train?

there isnt much in walking distance of the park, i’d either eat downtown before leaving or check out the bacardi bar.

So, I say this more with admiration than anything else: I love that Kenny Williams went out and acquired the two worst players in the American League so far this year. - Joe Posnanski

by e-gus on Aug 2, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just go to Miller's Pub, Adams and Wabash, pre-game. 5 minutes or fewer from the hotel.

Then take the El to the park.
Stigmas are gone.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Aug 2, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

there it is.

do that.

So, I say this more with admiration than anything else: I love that Kenny Williams went out and acquired the two worst players in the American League so far this year. - Joe Posnanski

by e-gus on Aug 2, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pretty much this.

It’s my recommendation for damn near anyone staying from out of town.

"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd

by South Side Expat on Aug 2, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bacardi IS outside the stadium. If you had internet access you could check.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

hee

So, I say this more with admiration than anything else: I love that Kenny Williams went out and acquired the two worst players in the American League so far this year. - Joe Posnanski

by e-gus on Aug 2, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Schallers Pump is a 20 minute walk west, on Halsted, and is one of the best places in the vicinity

If you have the time, that place is cheap, has good food, the people are nice, and there’s a lot of history – it’s been there forever.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Aug 2, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

History all right - oldest continually operating pub in Chicago

It pays to have been across from the Democratic ward office in the most powerful neighborhood in the city.

by Yinka Double Dare on Aug 2, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't go there. Just let it be at easily walk able icon.

I got Rhubarb chicken back up on this one.

"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd

by South Side Expat on Aug 3, 2011 3:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

lots of each

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

by lastof12 on Aug 2, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

So, we have learned from our mistake last night of batting Dunn and Rios back to back

Good strategy.

Bad karma plus Adam Dunn times Alex Rios divided by Brent Morel’s on-base percentage minus the square root of Juan Pierre = no playoffs.

by slydernelson on Aug 2, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

TP says, "Fuck you, colin."

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Aug 2, 2011 1:17 PM CDT reply actions  

what'd i do ?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol

he’s of the opinion this isn’t on Kenny.

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Aug 2, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

he's the GM. it's always on him.

but it’s not like i didn’t spell out a number of exculpatory points.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

what colin said.

of course it’s on him.

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 2, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ya, what?

Of course the responsibility is KW’s. I simply said that I’m not going to criticize him now for moves that I applauded at the time, in this instance Dunn, Peavy and Rios.

"If you are looking for a good and quick treat, mosey on over to Hardees or KFC." -Jessy S

by Uribe Down on Aug 2, 2011 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

What are your thin guesses at why Dunn is struggling?

League switch? Psychological-confidence issues stemming from the slump that occurred just after his appendectomy? A decline in skills as evidenced by last year’s declining walk rate?

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 2, 2011 1:25 PM CDT reply actions  

not grindy enough

brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight

by whitesoxmatt on Aug 2, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

it was all in my post about him

i think i see some slight mechanical changes. i don’t think i could actually point to a decline in skills, but at this point his struggles will severely change his projections for next season. so there must be some skill decline.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

so you don't buy any of that above stuff?

or the suggestion that he’s no longer playing the field so he has all game to think about his AB’s? Or that he’s too outspoken for the clubhouse?

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

i buy most of that stuff. but the output compared to those seemingly minimal inputs

is insanely divergent. apparently there are emergent properties in this complex system the kind of which are difficult to attribute effectively.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

I picture you spewing that in ‘Rain Man’ dialect. Definitely

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Aug 2, 2011 2:01 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

the size of the effect is disproportionate to the supposed causes.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

could it be one of those unexplainable losses of ability,

like chuck knoblauch not able to throw to first base? just the yips, straight up the ass?

by obnoxious american on Aug 2, 2011 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

All of the above

Only question is what are the relative contributions. We can only hope the list is ordered from biggest contribution to least.

His BB% is actually up from last year (but down compared to all previous). And one would expect it to be better than what it is if his mammoth K% this year was closer to his previous years.

"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473

by NorthSidePaulie on Aug 2, 2011 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Big agreement here...

Really the only one of those moves I was ok with was the Rios claim. It didn’t cost them a single player in return and, while I didn’t think he would possibly be this bad, I thought he could be solid for not a TON of money.

KW needs to get back to his roots like you said. The small minor moves that most people brush off, but we love (Danks, Q, Alexei, Floyd, Gio, heck even the Pierre deal was a shrewd one in retrospect). Of course a farm system would prevent a lot of this, but that’s a conversation for another day…

by polodude017 on Aug 2, 2011 1:28 PM CDT reply actions  

i hate the pierre deal.

i don’t care how good he has been at any point, i am blinded my fury at his utter incompetence and how ozzie continued to play him in the first half this year when he had two fine replacements waiting in AAA (hell, 3 if you want to count milledge).

by craigws on Aug 2, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Utter incompetence"

Seems too strong. I agree he’s adding less value than last year, but he’s not that expensive either.

I do recognize that the real issue is that he might be blocking Viciedo when he’s healthy enough to hit. I’m not convinced that Milledge or even De Aza is better than JP as an every day option either.

"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473

by NorthSidePaulie on Aug 2, 2011 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

he was the worst player in baseball for the first few months of the season,

and because of his awful fielding, he cost the team games and screwed with matt thornton’s head. utter incompetence is fair. though he has come around to being merely subpar.

i don’t know if de aza or milledge would be any worse, but i’m more annoyed at this point by what pierre represents to ozzie as a ‘leadoff man’ than by pierre himself (he seems a likeable chap).

by craigws on Aug 2, 2011 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice post!

It certainly seems he thought he found a market inefficiency, and it isn’t panning out for him as he thought it would. I agree that he’ll adjust and improve in the future.

Easy chief
We’re a community - Tdogg

by Jack M on Aug 2, 2011 1:35 PM CDT reply actions  

Oh, KW's found market inefficiency...

and gathered them all together as the White Sox offense.

Make sure to tip your waitresses.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I love when you analyze!

One point about Swisher:
I’m pretty sure Unca Jer had something to do with the results. Worked hard for decades to overcome the Comiskey “image”, create a family atmosphere, etc. The doll in Toronto likely wasn’t the only thing to blow-up. Wouldn’t surprise me if Kenny was ordered to dump him.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Aug 2, 2011 1:36 PM CDT reply actions  

he definitely felt like he couldn't hold onto him for whatever reason

the Yankees got him for free. sounds like everybody knew what Kenny was holding and offered him jack shit. so that could very well be true.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jack Shit would have been an upgrade over Jeff Marquez

At least Jack sometimes had a little power to the gaps.

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Aug 2, 2011 2:06 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Ozzie hated that he pouted at the end of the year when benched

and the pies in the face thing didn’t go over to well with Konerko/Thome/Dye, if memory serves.

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Aug 2, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Too late. By then the GM was told to hate him/move him. And I'm sure Ozzie heard about the doll incident too.

Too bad it wasn’t Oney.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Aug 2, 2011 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

with a bat up his ass?

because i would agree. i thought they were doing…other things, though.

by obnoxious american on Aug 2, 2011 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Completely Agree on the buy what you can't get

Considering our two best hitters were big time prospects who fell out of favor with their teams, Kenny should continue to hit these up. Let Cooper continue to take magic beans and turn them into productive pitchers, and trade those guys. Look what SD did with Maybin, who seems to be figuring it out a bit.

On the subject of post hype prospects, can somebody explain the following:
Adam Dunn vs. LHP=.252 OPS in 94 Plate Appearances
Milledge vs LHP in 2010 at MLB=320/414/512 in 145 PA
Milledge vs LHP in 2011 at AAA=387/467/645

So we have a problem that is absolutely glaring (DH vs. lefties) and a player whose sole talent is hitting lefties, and we will continue to trot out a guy who currently has no chance. Does this make anyone else want to hit themselves in the head with a hammer? (This isn’t even mentioning that the reason we probably can’t bring him up is because of how much respect we have for a 44 year old who isn’t helping the team)

by MelidoPerez on Aug 2, 2011 1:39 PM CDT reply actions  

have you seen what Dunn's career line vs. lefties is?

he’s been worse than Milledge would have been against righties too. and why Milledge rather than Viciedo? no Super 2 issues?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Milledge made sense to me

They don’t have to worry about the service time or playing him every day. Also, he is healthy.
Isn’t that at least worth a try? I understand the whole reversion position in the first half of the year, but at some point isn’t it irresponsible for them not to make an adjustment?

by MelidoPerez on Aug 2, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's signed for another 3 years after

it’s a delicate situation. I’m w/ Jim that he should probably get some rest against LHP, but it’s a bit of a hostage situation. Bad Adam’s got a shiv pointed at Good Adam.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 2, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Can he play 3rd or SS?

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Aug 2, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

from Grantland / Jonah Keri, White Sox fall #26 on trade deadline losers:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6826808/part-1-vanquished

27. Chicago White Sox

Five days later and it’s still hard to figure what the White Sox were doing when they dealt Edwin Jackson and Mark Teahen for Jason Frasor and Zach Stewart. Yes, Stewart has some mild upside as a back-end starter or reliever, and Frasor bolstered Chicago’s pen. But did the deal really just boil down to Kenny Williams wanting to shed $7 million of Mark Teahen as a way to reclaim some of the dead money being paid to Adam Dunn and Alex Rios? It was widely reported by the time of the trade that the Cardinals were interested in Jackson, and that Jackson and Matt Thornton could have potentially landed Colby Rasmus. Were the Pale Hose seriously not interested in adding a potential star center fielder to their underachieving lineup?

You have to feel for Williams a bit: Two games under .500 and four games out of first, the Sox faced a tricky decision on whether to buy or sell. They kind of did neither. Or both. And they didn’t help themselves at all.

Easy chief
We’re a community - Tdogg

by Jack M on Aug 2, 2011 2:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Wouldn't Thornton and Jackson for Rasmus

Still have dumped more payroll than Teahen and Jackson / getting Frasor’s salary back?

While I understand we were dumping salaries, I don’t understand why it meant we couldn’t get a good player in return, or a player that we could actually use at some point. I’m just not impressed with KW’s creativity there.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought I read something 'round these parts that said that Rasmus is in line for a serious defensive regression pretty soon here that might force him to a corner

Where that bat might not look so good anymore. Or maybe I dreamed it. At any rate, over-hyped was the point of the post.

At least that’s what I’ve been telling myself.

Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death

by Hazymania on Aug 2, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well Zach Stewart has already regressed, and has never been good in the majors.

And Frasor is a mid 30’s reliever who makes a few million a year. Still doesn’t add up for me.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Quiet you.

Take your logic and sensible posting elsewhere.

Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death

by Hazymania on Aug 2, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have no idea what his point was about Stewart and regression

at all.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 2, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

His point was not trading for Rasmus because he's going to regress.

Well, Stewart already has, so if that’s your concern it certainly doesn’t make the trade you did make any better.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

exactly had Stewart regressed to GIT?

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 2, 2011 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

what exactly?

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 2, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

A fringe starter / back of the rotation guy or possibly a bullpen guy?

At least that’s what I’ve read. Obviously I’m not out there scouting the guy personally. What else would I be referring to? I read all the same sources you do.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're using the word "regress" wrong

It doesn’t mean “get worse.” It means an average coming closer to the true mean after being thrown off my an anomaly.

by joewho112 on Aug 2, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's still as much forecasting as it is diagnosis, though, isn't it? He only has 16.2 major league innings

I don’t think there’s enough information to start characterizing any change in his performance as a “regression.” But I’ll stand corrected if I have that all backwards.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Aug 2, 2011 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

he actually pitched decent in 2 of the 3 starts

Im curious to see what Coop can do with him.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 2, 2011 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's a forecast by a few folks

sickels forecast was better. Coop said he saw a lot he has liked. If Stewart turns into a cheap effective back of the end rotation guy I’d have zero issue with that.

Law once called Danks nothing special and likely a mid to late rotation guy.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 2, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

that guy is a documented ass.

sadly seems like there’s a lot of those around.

by obnoxious american on Aug 2, 2011 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

...because the Cardinals were asking for more than Jax and Thornton?

Or KW wanted Teahen gone, bad? We were paying a guy to not be a baseball player. At least with Thornton, we’re paying a guy to be a baseball player.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

this

would have had to give up a Rzep equivalent, at least

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Aug 2, 2011 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you really think we couldn't match the offer so be it.

Didn’t have to trade for Rasmus necessarily, he’s just one possibility. We still had a valuable starting pitcher at the trade deadline and a relief pitcher making just as much as Teahen, that we could have moved and actually got talent in return.

My opinion, and apparently many writers out there also, is that KW could have been a lot more creative if he was going to drop salary. Maybe I’m wrong about Stewart and Coop sees something that makes him think he’s the next Gavin Floyd and they can get him back on track.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

as has been mentioned before

if the white sox trade thornton, you can pretty much kiss goodbye sale in the rotation.

by larry on Aug 2, 2011 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't agree with that logic.

It’s assumed you’ve lowered your payroll significantly if you’ve traded both Thornton and Jackson, and didn’t take on a major league veteran like Frasor. Buehrle is gone, or you’re going to trade Floyd or Danks and re-sign Buehrle at about what he makes now, either way, that’s more money there.

Resign Q for RF, and throw Viciedo in LF, factoring in Q’s raise, it’s still cheaper than Pierre and Q this year, or god forbid, Pierre and Viciedo and trade Q, again it’s still cheaper than this year. While Rios and Dunn are garbage, it’s not like you’re going to replace them with big money options considering how much we have invested in them.

So a lefty set up man is your only big hole that I see that’d you have to spend money on.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

i don't agree with that logic either.

doesn’t mean that it isn’t what the white sox would do.

by larry on Aug 2, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe. I don't think the market for starters was all it was cracked up to be.

Considering Guthrie and Rodriguez, who really should have been traded, stayed put. A lot of people also expected Boston and Detroit to have to give up more than they did for the starters they added.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Aug 2, 2011 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I.. like Cardinals fans.. am not that impressed with what else Toronto sent over.

I find it hard to believe we couldn’t have matched it based on the trade they made.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

well, maybe other systems have a bunch of guys to confuse other GMS

maybe Toronto has a system that is vibrant enough to have borderline guys that look like prospects to some, and busts to others. I think the White Sox have Viciedo, maybe 2 other guys, and a bunch of guys to run and go get it when it’s hit. No nuance. No debatable ceilings. 3 “prospects” and a bunch of assholes.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

toronto does have one of the best farms.

essentially a consensus top five coming into the season.

by larry on Aug 2, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well that'd be one reason to trade Thornton instead of Teahen, no?

To get prospects that aren’t a bunch of assholes. You got a guy bitching about not trading Q at peak value, what about Thornton?

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure, I'd have traded Thornton

but the point here is why the White Sox didn’t trade Thornton instead of Teahen to get Rasmus.

The debate would be, “What package could the White Sox have assembled to get Rasmus?” Sure, we could say, Jax, Thornton, and a grey cloud of players we don’t have to name, when it may be the case that StL didn’t want a single one of our guys.

Seriously, we talk about our prospects once a week, here, and our best prospects seem to be fringy, potential bullpen guys, or whatnot. We could always say, “They could have gotten it done”, but the hard part is saying what exactly could have gotten it done.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

just to note.

the cardinals probably didn’t want to add too much payroll past this season. got a guy named pujols who is going to get paid. $6 million per year for a reliever isn’t chump change.

by larry on Aug 2, 2011 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

My thoughts exactly

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Aug 2, 2011 5:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

That's not my debate though really.

I’m not saying we had to get Rasmus, he’s just the obvious name out there, could have moved guys other places. I just don’t think KW did the most he could with the assets he had.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

In essence, nobody does

but we don’t know what was being offered, what the hang-up was, or whatever. But you said this upthread:

I find it hard to believe we couldn’t have matched it based on the trade they made.

I don’t find it hard to believe. We pretty much have no prospects. Zero. There might be some nice guys at low A I’m not up on, but as far as major league ready, or a year away, guys, I would bet StL told us to stick it, and as larry said, quite possible they didn’t want to take on Thornton’s salary.

Once KW telegraphed there would be no more moves, I stopped paying attention to the trade deadline, so I don’t know what people were getting for starters or “best-in-the-game” lefty relievers.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Trading teabag gets the ball moving

on much needed roster additions and subtractions. (mumbles something about kicking and screaming….)

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 2, 2011 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

in other words if that deal gets

de aza and then hopefully a healthy Viciedo on the squad because of numb nuts I’ll live with it.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Aug 2, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was ready to blow it up

Trade Thornton, Q, shit, Beckham and Humber, if anyone bit.

I was for the white flag trade. That team wasn’t going anywhere, and it was torturous watching them try to get out of their own way.

This year’s team has won 4 games in a row twice. They have not won more than 4 games in a row this year. I do not believe this squad, as constructed, was going to do anything.

I agree with you, moving Teahen clears a space for DeAza or Viciedo to cycle into the lineup. Create a couple of platoons until Dunn or Rios remembers how to hit, or gets embarassed enough to go on a date with Walker.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Maybe Jax/Sale gets it done

I think that’s a bit much for Rasmus, tho.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd think he has more value than Teahen, no?

Which is all that matters, so you can maximize Jackson’s value, instead of putting him with trade value anchor, Mark Teahen.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

I probably have no business in this conversation, but, here I go

I didn’t really pay attention to the deadline deals. I don’t know what a Jax/Thornton package would have gone for.

But I trust that KW surveyed the field, and figured he didn’t want to get caught up in the Ubaldo/Fister/Bedard nonsense going back and forth with teams not sure whether they were coming or going.

I think moving Teahen is a bigger deal than we’re giving it credit for. Just to get DeAza on the team. Just for some maneuverability.

But getting Jax done early may have given KW more time to figure out what was available, and what they wanted. But that does seem to be his M.O. (not getting caught up in a flee market atmosphere with 12 other starters on the market.)

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well that's stupid.

If you really wanted De Aza on the roster, there was nothing stopping you from sending Morel down and bringing De Aza up and letting Teahen play third.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 2, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

which would perhaps be why the white sox would want to keep thornton.

one ideally wants to rid oneself of things one doesn’t want and keep those things one does.

by larry on Aug 2, 2011 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

This seems to be every writer's talking point
and it’s still hard to figure what the White Sox were doing

Then, seriously, WTF are you doing taking up space that an actual baseball writer or blogger could figure this out? Go knit me a sweater!!!

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think people just expect KW to make some massive move,

And put disappointed rankings like this when they don’t know what to make of it.

by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Aug 2, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it's quite possible that KW's earned the rep as a guy who will fleece you

by taking a guy you’re ready to cut, and turn him into a Cy Young candidate. and vice versa, trading you an all-star who happens to be dying of beri beri.

KW also likes to work fast. He doesn’t seem to like to work 6 months on a trade. That might scare off guys like Rizzo, who like to shop their chip around to every single team in every single league in every single market before they decide to stand pat.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

*27

Easy chief
We’re a community - Tdogg

by Jack M on Aug 2, 2011 2:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Instead of "Incentive Laden Contracts"

how about “Disincentive Laden Contracts”. If your BA is below the Mendoza Line your pay is cut by two thirds. I don’t think the players union would approve though.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on Aug 2, 2011 2:37 PM CDT reply actions  

You just have to dress it up nicer

like “opposite day honeypot” or “diminshed skills clause”

by dr. lingerie on Aug 2, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think KW is dumb because of the moves he's made

He was unlucky. Hell, if 1 of Rios, Dunn and Peavy were contributing right now we’d be a better team. What were the odds that all three played below replacement level?

I don’t give him credit for the Danks, Floyd, Ramirez, Quentin pickups either. Those were all low risk moves. If they didn’t pan out no one would complain because what we traded away was crap anyways. It would have been a wash.

I do question the motive to trade players just to get rid of them (Swisher, Vazquez). That’s just dumb. It could have been that they weren’t “dumped” though and just a case of poor scouting.

by striker on Aug 2, 2011 3:00 PM CDT reply actions  

Danks and Floyd had plenty of risk.

They’re only laughably risk-free now.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Aug 2, 2011 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well that's no fair, striker

A GM casts a net, and gets a bunch of players. the system gets to work with them to turn them into major leaguers. Some work, some don’t. We don’t seem to be an effective drafting team, so the spotlight rests on the Danks, Floyds Stewarts, etc, that we trade for. KW’s been pretty good finding guys who fit into our coaching system.

I wouldn’t call Vazquez a salary dump. Flowers and the pitcher (forget his name) were good prospects.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

that was...

Boone Logan and Javier Vazquez for Jon Gilmore, Santos Rodriguez, Brent Lillibridge, and Tyler Flowers

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 2, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

that maybe true.

but he sure as hell dealt very well that first year in atlanta. and he constantly put up huge innings and strikeout numbers. he should have gotten us a decent player.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Aug 2, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was coming off of a 4.67 ERA season

Maybe it was the wrong time to trade him, but I don’t think it’s fair to argue the Sox should have gotten a better player. That’s why the Braves got more (or a more advanced minor-leaguer, anyway).

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Aug 2, 2011 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

At the time some of us were up in arms that they traded McCarthy

For Danks and Masset. I couldn’t digest a decent meal for days. Thankfully that worked out

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Aug 2, 2011 5:09 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

i thought mccarthy sucked.

and was happy when el duque made the postseason roster over him.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Aug 2, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

KenWo hating the white guy.

Shocking!

"I have zero enthusiasm for my career, home, physical fitness, or any number of personal relationships with other humans and pets. It’s called 'being alive,' Frank Wren. Now hold your nose and make a deal, pussy." - dr. lingerie

by RWShow on Aug 3, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

high-larry-us

White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.

by greenlight on Aug 2, 2011 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

wow this is some good stuff.

to wit:

There’s nothing better than watching a field filled with millionaires in a stadium named after the company that owns your mortgage or credit-card debt, which makes you think of your mortgage or credit-card debt, which makes you forget about the game and get lost in your own thoughts, which makes you depressed, lonely, and isolated, which is a problem until one of those millionaires bounces into a double play to upset you enough to forget your mortgage or credit-card debt. This is why baseball is beautiful and America’s pastime.

by obnoxious american on Aug 2, 2011 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

and both chicago gms.

really, they were all great

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Aug 2, 2011 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I suppose that's one way to get rid of Teahen's contract.

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 2, 2011 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

i enjoyed reading this and liked the twist at the end...

but that ship has sailed for me. time to let hahn take care of the next “retooling” project.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Aug 2, 2011 5:47 PM CDT reply actions  

if there is to be a major retooling this offseason

it’ll require craziness to put together anything worthwhile, and i’d prefer to have the gm who is crazy like a fox.

by craigws on Aug 2, 2011 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know what just occurs to me?

I don’t think Reinsdorf’s results oriented, here. Unless they crash the franchise for 2-3 years with nothing to show for it, I think Ozzie and Kenny will be here until they want to leave.

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 2, 2011 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

i think his pockets are results oriented.

its clear the fans aren’t happy with what has gone on. and its clear he isn’t either as i guarantee he made the call to lose 7 million in salary.

if fans were showing up in the same numbers, weren’t boo’ing their own players every night and they didn’t spend so much coin- id agree with you. but i think even he sees that something isn’t working. (of course if they win that goes out the window)

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Aug 2, 2011 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

The simple fix is to replace the announcers.

Veeck’s contention was to have them entertain the fans when the product on the field sucked.
I’m down with that.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Aug 2, 2011 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Joke of course.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Aug 2, 2011 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

What's to say Hahn isn't behind some of this mess?

"Good teams win games. Bad teams have meetings."

by BobbySouthSide on Aug 2, 2011 8:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

jermainesjerman

knows why.

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 3, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

my preferred angle there

is that he doesn’t make arguments that he knows he can’t win.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Aug 3, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

he isn't doing a very good job then.

or KW isn’t doing a very good job. stifling input is not a good thing in an organization.

by larry on Aug 3, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

You mean, like, Hahn keeps tickling KW when he's about to fax a trade to the league office

and Kenny faxes in the joke trade, where we get a schlub for prospects?

sideways smiley face

by TasteeFreeze on Aug 3, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting writeup but I am not sure what the conclusion is about coaching.

Is there reason to think that the ability to coach players like Rios will improve?

by metasox on Aug 2, 2011 9:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Sick of

Analyzing this team. We are in a serious identity crisis and this ship will only be turned if either Dunn, Rios, or Peavy figure it out. When we got peavy I bragged to all my cub can friends same with Dunn and Rios… Look where I am now. I used to praise KW for his uncanny knack for “finding” guys. So emotionally spent because of this team.

by JewsForDeJesus on Aug 3, 2011 12:01 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Matt Spiegel

from WSCR said he was going to wear his “Jews for Bacon” t-shirt to their upcoming radio station cookout event at the Cell. Awesome.

"It make me wanna cry…ha, ha, ha…what do I see? A lotta swing and a miss." - Ozzie Guillen venting his frustration regarding the ability of highly paid "head guys" (team shrinks) to fix Adam Dunn’s steep offensive drop off

by tailgater on Aug 3, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Adam Dunn upside

What we are all forgetting as we wallow in our sorrows is that we may actually see two all-time records come crashing down in 2011 thanks to Adam Dunn.

1) All-Time stikeouts – Mark Reynolds (2009 D-Backs) – 223 (only 86 to go!)

2) All-Time worst average (at least 400 ABs) – Rob Deer (1991 Tigers) – .179 (currently 14 points below!)

So, keep your chins up fellas! I say, embrace the horror!

"It make me wanna cry…ha, ha, ha…what do I see? A lotta swing and a miss." - Ozzie Guillen venting his frustration regarding the ability of highly paid "head guys" (team shrinks) to fix Adam Dunn’s steep offensive drop off

by tailgater on Aug 3, 2011 1:16 PM CDT reply actions  

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