Reading Room: Ozzie loves other teams' farm products
by Jim Margalus on Aug 26, 2011 8:53 AM CDT
in White Sox News
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PrintAs a baseball fan, I'm all for displays of professional respect, which is why this is one of my favorite gifs of all time, regardless of the subject.
As a White Sox fan, I wish I could be all for Ozzie Guillen's man crush on Los Angeles ground-coverer Peter Bourjos. I, too, love watching Bourjos run, and there are few things more beautiful in the game than watching a center fielder make a great read and run down a fly without diving.
There's just one tiny problem:
"It’s nice to see the newcomers that make this game so exciting," Guillen said. "I love it. I love it. Where do they find those guys? Where?"
Maybe we're watching a different season than the one the Sox are playing. There's no other way to describe the complete lack of self-awareness.
Before we leave Bourjos be, I liked the way James broke down the way he scored from first on a Pierror.
Speaking of ground-covering, David Haugh's column echoes what we've been saying for the past several weeks, but it's good to see the big paper in town taking the "What the hell.." approach.
Mike throws out an interesting thought. If Paul Konerko happened to reach the first-baseman-starved Diamondbacks, would you try to engineer a trade? He would. I wouldn't.
Mark Gonzalez doesn't think Danks could get a Mark Buehrle-sized extension at this point, but Chad Billingsley's contract (four for $46 million) might be in the ballpark.
Brett Ballantini explores the rotation further, calling Danks a "strong bet" to stay with the Sox beyond 2012.
There by the grace of Donny goes Tyler Flowers, who offers a self-assessment of his game and ends up talking in the third person.
Jim Thome is back on the Indians. The White Sox chose not to block him because Konerko is stuck in the DH spot.
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2011 WhiteSox Baseball: we're all in
by OznCoop on Aug 26, 2011 9:07 AM CDT via iPhone app reply actions
Your post...
came through as FNS. Is that what the app does?
by palehose67 on Aug 26, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is why I love Guillen and would miss his press conferences:
"I’ve never seen a white man that can run that fast. It is really impressive."
by winningugly on Aug 26, 2011 9:43 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Except for his, "I wonder where they find these guys!" quote, yeah, sure.
Oh, wait, your own manager is kinda calling out the fact that your org has zero prospects and hasn’t developed anyone in a damn long time (which is partially his own fault). FWSB2011.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Aug 26, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
what i think is more impressive...
is that he has de aza, whom he has refused to play over rios, and viciendo, for whom he claims to have no playing time. add to this that guillen worships veterans (aj is one example) and refuses to trust most younger players (flowers, for example), and you get to the mind-fuck that is ozzie’s awareness of self
It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT
by rhythm on Aug 26, 2011 10:29 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
who's this viciendo guy? larry has never mentioned him.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Lack of self-awareness?
It’s more like living in oblivion
Sabermetrics hurt my head, just give me the facts.
where do they find these guys? you give them away dummy or you refuse to call them up in lost seasons
daniel hudson is in AZ for a year of E-jax who had to be dumped to get rid of teahen. i’d gladly have getz and hudson back anytime now.
clayton richard is in SD for peavy’s exploded shoulder/elbow/etc. yeah i think richard would have been a better bulldog at this point than the 3-legged one trying to keep up with normal 4 legged ones
someone explain why exactly rios was claimed with all that money still due to him?
dump thome to LA so we could scoop up Roid-eo drive, Mannywood in the future
uggghhhhh then the one that still kills me, giving up Gio for N!$# Sw!&#@r
i’ll even take nick masset back. this team pulled off several coups had they kept all the pieces they received. unfortunately they returned the favors trading for 40+ year olds and washed up journeymen who were no better than once-a-month platoon starters that showed their lack of value after a couple of weeks
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
R.I.P. Big Homey Nate Dogg: "Cuz Iiiiiiiiii have ne-evv-ver met a giiiiiiiiiirrrrrrllllllllllllllllllll tha-at I loved in the whole wide wooorrrlllllddddddd"
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Aug 26, 2011 10:20 AM CDT reply actions
getz might be having a worse offensive year than beckham.
by obnoxious american on Aug 26, 2011 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
but was it worse than teahens?
who they traded getz for? doubt it. teahen, rios, and sw!$#&r three guys i will never understand why they were put on this roster in addition to manny and griffey jr.
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
R.I.P. Big Homey Nate Dogg: "Cuz Iiiiiiiiii have ne-evv-ver met a giiiiiiiiiirrrrrrllllllllllllllllllll tha-at I loved in the whole wide wooorrrlllllddddddd"
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Aug 26, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
there wasn't anything wrong with the griffey acquisition.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Nor the Swisher trade.
It was the results of the Swisher trade that was the problem.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Aug 26, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I also was against the first Swisher trade though
Of course, I have to admit I thought Ryan Sweeney was going to develop into something special which is why I booed it at the time.
The second Swisher deal wasn’t bad. It was pure bull$@(^%.
I was also highly against the first swisher deal.
I had major wood for Gio and Fautino (to a lesser extent). I also didn’t see Swish fitting in center.
There was nothing wrong with the Swisher acquisition.
Trading for him wasn’t a bad move. He had a bad season and didn’t mesh with the clubhouse and we traded him for shit. He’s not a bad player.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
yeah i understand why they traded for him
but the mess on the field, in the locker room, and then his dubious yet exonerating exit is what makes it looks bad.
you’d think after that they would have pulled back some on trying to go for the quick fix all the time with older guys decaying on bad teams
its a trade i could have done without. instead keep gio and actually try and groom a CF from within. he was so bad here its almost like he literally has a permanent ill-will towards chicago or the white sox or guillen or someone from that year
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
R.I.P. Big Homey Nate Dogg: "Cuz Iiiiiiiiii have ne-evv-ver met a giiiiiiiiiirrrrrrllllllllllllllllllll tha-at I loved in the whole wide wooorrrlllllddddddd"
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Aug 26, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
they did try to groom a CF from within.
and it was because of that that we made the swisher trade, the griffey trade and the rios pickup.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
/.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9ofGqpfFgQ&feature=related
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
yeah well i see it now as
swisher and teahen or gio as the number 3 waiting for dayan to be called up to replace BA and Wise and give him more run support
really this lineup has beckham, morel, lillibridge, and others so i’m not sure how much worse BA and Wise would have been. If anything Dayan would have been called up sooner with those guys still around
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
R.I.P. Big Homey Nate Dogg: "Cuz Iiiiiiiiii have ne-evv-ver met a giiiiiiiiiirrrrrrllllllllllllllllllll tha-at I loved in the whole wide wooorrrlllllddddddd"
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Aug 26, 2011 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
any way you slice it
The kid was quite impressive @ ASU. I just wish he could hit pitch in the majors.
"There's too many (bleeping) guys on the computer. It's simple. I say that. Pete Rose never watched a computer. Rod Carew never did. All those hitters, they go out and see the ball, hit it and move on." - Ozzie
by usualsuspect on Aug 27, 2011 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Nick Swisher is much different than the other players they've tried to quick fix with.
He was young at the time of the trade. He still hasn’t hit free agency. He was supposed to around and producing for a while. Trading for him was not like any of the other moves at all.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
but once they got him they played him in center and hit him leadoff.
not the best of plans.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
batting him leadoff was actually a pretty good idea
center field, not so much
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Right, he did great at leadoff at the start of the year
I was so pumped for him at the start of the 08 season
DHydra
You really don’t understand why Manny was put on the roster?
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
i like manny... always have...
so i was happy when we got him. but it was pretty much a shot in the dark. and for 4 million it was stupid.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
It was not a shot in the dark. He was just the type of hitter they needed to take at-bats from Kotsay.
$4 million for a $100 million team still in playoff contention is completely reasonable.
It wasn’t a brilliant move and it was too little, too late, but it’s weird that people keep trying to group it with Williams’ real blunders.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
yeah if you count manny
then Dunn should be #1 with a bullet
or maybe him and rios in some sort of double barrel shitgun.
Flowers always get me in scoring position. -SkanchoDanza
by e-gus on Aug 26, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
he would have been just the type of hitter if he wasn't coming off of the DL
and hadn’t played in 2 months.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
That's still a reasonable risk to take
And he did improve their offense, even if he did it by drawing walks rather than hitting home runs. It was just too little, too late.
The downside was a relatively small amount of money, while the upside was going to the postseason. That’s why it doesn’t deserve to be grouped with those other moves.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
I agree.
I didn’t think it was a great move, but it also wasn’t among the worst KW has made. Yes, his power was almost non-existant, but he still had a great OBP. It was worth the risk, especially considering that was during the waiver period and there weren’t many other options available.
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
eh. jones was doing a halfway decent job and they could have just let viciedo DH
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Well both of those guys did play a fair amount in September, so subtracting Ramirez means more at-bats for Kotsay
Giving bigger roles to a semi-platooned vet and a hacking rookie might have worked, but I don’t see how it’s that much better than taking a flier on Manny. There just wasn’t much downside, which is why I don’t get why that move still bugs people.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Like I said, it wasn't a great move.
But it certainly isn’t anywhere as bad as the Dunn contract or the second Swisher trade.
I wouldn't go that far.
There was still considerable risk going into that contract that he should have forseen. There’s considerable risk going into any contract of that magnitude. I agree, I didn’t think it was an awful move at the time, but at the same time, KW is the one who signed him, so that’s where the buck stops. If you’re not going to lay this one at his feet, then it’s pretty hard to give him any credit for guys who have outperformed what they were supposed to do.
he addressed the team's biggest deficiency from the preceeding year
by signing the guy on the open market that best fulfilled those needs. yes, there is considerable risk in any long-term contract, but at that point in time, there weren’t material doubts as to Dunn’s ability to replicate or come close to his career numbers. The alternatives of another DH hydra or giving the DH spot to an unproven player would not have been acceptable to the fan base aka the paying customers.
the consensus was that it was a good move.
you can’t turn around afterwards and say ‘you idiot! you fool! what the fuck were you thinking? if you were even thinking at all!’
there was risk, like you say, but nobody expected the risk to be what has happened. you could imagine him maybe falling off a bit, losing 10-15% on all his stats, but not this.
I don't know a single White Sox fan who wasn't giddy when Dunn was signed.
"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd
by South Side Expat on Aug 26, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
One right here.
Look, I didn’t say it was the worst, all I said is it was worse than the Ramirez pickup, mostly because of the high level of risk involved. I totally agree about hindsight, I’m the king of pointing that out around here. But you can’t simply excuse KW for this signing, it was his deal.
Maybe the fanbase wouldn’t have been ok with a less proven player DHing all year, but that doesn’t mean it would have been the incorrect choice. And that’s KW’s job, not to make the most popular choice, but the correct choice.
if youre saying he made the incorrect choice in signing dunn, youre off your damn rocker
"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza
he's batting like .160 with 12 homers.
of course he made the incorrect choice.
polodude is absolutely correct. if you give a GM credit for making moves that work, you have to detract fro moves that don’t. we’re all intelligent enough to understand that the thought process wasn’t wrong. it doesn’t change the fact that dunn is fucking donkeyshit.
no, you can still say it was the right completely the right move
however, after seeing the suck that was happening, its completely on his head that he did nothing to try and fix the problem
"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza
you can say that
but you’re wrong. dunn is donkeyshit. KW and the white sox would have been better off making another choice. like signing jim thome to a one year deal instead. yes, this is hindsight. that’s the fucking point.
Thank you.
Exactly what I was trying to say.
i think this is turning into a semantics argument as opposed to the right/wrongness of the move.
the ultimate responsibility must always come down to kenny, yes. that is the nature of his job.
but you can’t blame him for making the signing when he did. most any other gm in his position would have done the same thing. besides aa, obviously.
I doubt that "any other gm in his position" would have done that.
Do you really think Dunn had 29 other offers like that sitting on the table and he chose the Sox? Because I highly doubt that’s the case.
you quoted what i said, then opted not to understand it.
any other gm in kenny’s position. i.e. the white sox general manager’s post last off-season.
I still don't think that's true.
It’s pretty hard to say that when this is something that 29 other GM’s could have a completely different opinion on.
I’m sure there are plenty of other GM’s who would NOT have signed him to that contract.
you really have a boner for defending Adam Dunn and the whole rigamorale surrounding him
Hendry was crucified for similar moves, KW will be too. Rios, Dunn, not having a DH last year, Peavy for example. He really hasn’t hit paydirt on a trade or a free agent since maybe 2006.
i don't think either of them have a chance in hell
but at least rios can do some shit a little bit. if dunn isn’t hitting bombs he’s worthless.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Both f those players are fucked
it doesn’t matter who will come closer to justifying their contract because neither of them will.
i think peavy should be excluded
dude was a great add then a never before happened injury came. thats flat out unlucky.
"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza
eh they traded for him when he was on the DL.
the “never before happened injury” was a result of that first injury and the ridiculousness of rushing him back to pitch in 2009. the whole peavy situation irks me.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
yep. and KW was part of that decision too.
so peavy falls on his shoulders as well.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
His contract is too big for a pitcher of his abilities even if healthy
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
And it's not like Peavy was "vintage" Peavy when they got him either.
He was on a noticeable down-slope. That was still a very questionable trade, injury or not.
he was?
yeah, he didn’t start off 09 too well with the padres, but his peripherals were all pretty much standard.
he was normal peavy in 08.
well yeah, he was only cy young peavy for one year.
most other years he was in the 4.5 bwar area, just like he was in 08.
you can make an argument about whether or not that is worth what they are paying him as big_fun was doing, but i don’t think you can say he was on a ‘noticeable downward slope’.
If you consider that CY Young season to be his peak.
Then I think you can say he was on a downward slope. Do you want me to draw you a graph?
You joke.
But he does look like he’s on a bit of a downturn right now. We’ll see. And his arm isn’t even falling off, so how good a shot do you think Peavy has?
i joked cos you were being ridiculous because you can't concede a point. just like you've tried to shift the conversation again here.
attempting to be condescending when you are the one being stupid doesn’t reflect well on you.
babe ruth was on a noticeable downward slope after ’23 by your standards. never got near that 14.7 war again. useless bastard.
I'm not being condescending.
I’m stating an opinion. Were you incredibly high on Peavy when the Sox traded for him? Because I wasn’t and I don’t think a lot of people were.
"Do you want me to draw you a graph?"
i wasn’t either. and i’m not even defending him. i’m saying that you are wrong to suggest he wasn’t the same player he had been before when the white sox traded for him.
So?
He did well with Quentin, Floyd and Danks and now everyone wants two of the three of them gone next year.
Whoa, nowhere did I say there was anything wrong with that.
In fact I would prefer he stuck to those type of moves, they have served KW very well in the past. My point is I think he’s a little out of his comfort zone trying to make the big splash moves.
And anyone who wants any of Quentin/Floyd/Alexei gone is an idiot.
Though I’d entertain the thought of trading Floyd and Quentin, I’d have to be bowled over with talent to move either.
i have no emotional ties to floyd
danks however, better never elave
"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza
You might not have any emotional ties to him...
but he’s still a fairly effective innings eater who people repeatedly curse just because he hasn’t made the jump to the next tier of starters. He’s still a very valuable players, especially when considering his contract situation.
we agree about that,
but i wouldnt object to trading a fairly effective innings eater
"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza
Either would I.
I just highly doubt the return would be worth it. The guy has been fairly valuable.
then again, these seem to be the kind of trades kenny seems to do better in
:)
"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza
Which trades are those?
He seems to do better when flipping guys who have never made a significant ML impact at all.
How does this sound?
Kenny doesn’t get to make anymore trades, ever. He also doesn’t get to sign FA’s, ever again.
Depending on who someone else is, I'd be ok with that.
Omar Minaya or Steve Phillips? No thanks. I’d be willing to give Hahn a shot, but if he looks like KW Jr. after a a few seasons, I’d pull the plug.
alexei.
and i am done with dunn this year, won’t defend him anymore, but i will defend the decision to sign him. even though, as has been pointed out it, it was clearly the wrong move in hindsight.
Adam Dunn falls on KW
KW fucked up by giving him that contract. While people were pleased that we inked him, people here were also very weary of the contract as associated with comparable players and their diminishing skills moving into his age bracket.
i said it was kenny's responsibility, ultimately.
i also said the consensus was that it was the right move. i think that was fair to say, even given people’s issues with the length of the deal.
this is another dead horse argument.
i’ve mentioned the article in SI that quoted quite a few people, likely of the GM variety, who said they were closely watching the deal because it was bucking the trend in baseball of not signing DHs to long contracts and to (generally) not even sign them to large annual dollar value deals. this is because so many of the contracts turned out pretty badly for teams, suggesting something wrong across the industry regarding evaluation of such players.
that is the primary argument against signing adam dunn. and it is bolstered by dunn sucking because it suggest there was something wrong in the evaluation of adam dunn.
it's not semantics. it's timing.
was the thought process right? everyone here knows the argument for that. everyone knows the argument against. did it turn out the way everyone, including KW, thought? no.
considering these two things, you can weight either however you want. but you can’t just blithely ignore the result. again, of course he made the wrong choice. if KW could go back in time, he’s not going to make the same deal.
youre talking hindsight, im talking managerial ability
"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza
if you don't use hindsight, you're not evaluating managerial ability at all.
you must fucking love the way the indians have operated for the last half decade. there’s the textbook “right thought process”. with generally shit results.
Maybe hindsight hurts his eyes or gives him migraines.
Do you wear glasses? Might need to go to the eye doctore.
this is what i wrote after the initial jizzing in my pants over a major signing.
id still rather have the prince but whatever…..
once i go white everything will be alright?
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
At the start of the season, experts were lining up to predict Dunn would smack 50 homers in the Cell
I didn’t like four years but I certainly cheered signing Dunn after a year of DHydra. I can’t fault KW for a move I might have made in a similar circumstance.
hell i wrote a story wondering if konerko and dunn would threaten the best combo's in team history. oops.
http://www.southsidesox.com/2011/3/19/2059703/kenwos-corner-dynamic-duos
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
getz wasn't traded for teahen's production this year.
and they’re both horrible. i was just addressing you saying how you’d rather have getz back, which it’s pointless to lament as they have better players than him.
by obnoxious american on Aug 26, 2011 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
right we already have a plus defender who cannot hit at second
our 2b is a better defender at second. I still wouldn’t be surprised if Beckham is moved to a team like the Rangers or Yankees who can absorb his bat. Hell, if the Sox hit like they were supposed to than we would have been fine with him.
about beckham, i say you still have to give him a year or two
he’s only 3 years out of the draft, most guys would barely have seen the majors, and with his defense, he just has to replicate his rookie season offense.
by obnoxious american on Aug 26, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the real point here should be...
regardless of whether Getz ever even took another AB or not, they never would have given Teahen that contract. That’s why people should lament that trade, not the players given up, but the money afterwards.
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
oh of course. i thought the trade wasn't bad,
josh fields sucks, and getz was…well, getz. i’m sure plenty of us thought that teahen had a chance to hit 20-25 homers with this park. that he was extended before taking an at bat with the sox was fucking astounding.
by obnoxious american on Aug 26, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
You've sold me
they should disband the whole team.
They just cause too much pain.
sideways smiley face
by TasteeFreeze on Aug 26, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
There was nothing wrong with sending Thome to LA
It was a gracious gesture to give the guy a shot at a ring. If anything it probably improved their chances of signing him the following year, had they been so inclined.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Clayton Richard hasn't really amounted to anything
Hudson has been really up and down this year, in the NL.
Just saying Hudson isn't the second coming like some pretend he is
We have a pretty good staff this year if you haven’t noticed
That's not the point
The point is would you rather have Edwin Jackson or Hudson and Holmberg (everyone forgets he was in this trade too and is pitching pretty well). If you say Jackson you are insane.
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know who has made him out as the second coming
I remember people making his out as pretty good and very cheap.
Hudson/EJ
Hudson: 4.1 WAR this season, making 419K this year and not arbitration eligible until 2013 (FA in 2016).
Jackson: 2.9 WAR this season, making 8+ mil this year and FA after the season.
Yeah, who needs Hudson…
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
for hudson, i'm reading 1.6 at BR.
am i crazy here?
by obnoxious american on Aug 26, 2011 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
people need to identify which WAR they are using.
he’s presumably using fWAR, from fangraphs. rWAR or bWAR is the usual identifier for BR.
I'm seeing that too.
I got 4.1 from FG. I know the two calculate WAR differently but that’s a little absurd.
When they both say "WAR"
it’s pretty easy to confuse that they aren’t the same.
they both provide clear definitions on their respective sites.
fWAR is much better to use for any given single season.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
All I'm saying is when I pull up BR
and it says “WAR: 1.6”, I’m expecting something comparable to the “WAR” on FG. When you go to the grocery store do you check that mL and gallons means the same thing on every package when you pick it up? No, you assume they are measured the same way.
you really should.
knowing the limitations to stats is essential to using them properly.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
if you don't know what you're citing, just don't cite it.
if you’re citing WAR from fangraphs, use the appropriate designation so people know what the fuck you’re talking about. there’s no point to you posting stuff if we don’t understand.
that's a false comparison
Tango has said repeatedly that WAR is a framework, not a precise standard.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
WHY AREN'T THE OUNCES ON MY SPRITE LIKE THE OUNCES ON MY GROUND BEEF?
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
HR and RBI's
are the same on Upper deck, topps, fleer and donruss. god dammit.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
True, but I was under the impression that they were at least somewhat comparable.
Not completely different measurements/calculations. I guess that’s my bad for not reading further into the subject (larry you don’t have to chime in, I know it’s my bad).
for batting, they're basically the same
for pitching, the methodologies are very different. b-r picked a method that will work very well going as far back as they do, date-wise. it works very nicely for careers and at the team-level. fangraphs is less historically-oriented and more player season-centric and they made their choices as such.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Hindsight is 20/20
No one from the Peavy trade is exactly lighting it up, Rios was claimed because the Sox though he could do what he did last year for the remainder of the contract, and “Roid-eo” as you call him was who everyone was clammoring for last season. No one could have seen some of this coming, even the most pessimistic of us.
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, no one saw that coming...
as I think you were inferring. I actually didn’t want to sign him, but I also wasn’t totally upset when they did. I thought they could find a cheaper, lower-risk option, but I figured he would still be good for 30+ bombs and 90+ rbi. Little did I, and the rest of you, know…
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
before this season, i'd have been unhappy with rios doing what he did last year for the remainder of the contract.
now that would seem like a godsend.
Considering he was worth 14.7 mil last year according to FG.
That would seem pretty unreasonable to say.
what does the money have to do with it?
yes, i was disappointed with his production last year because he only produced for about 6 weeks of it. he was almost as bad in august and september as he has been this year.
FG valued his production for the year at 14.7 mil.
He makes about 12 mil per season the rest of the contract. If he would have done that every year to the end of the contract, he would have actually outperformed it. Follow?
True.
But still, the overall production was there. Yes, he was bad for a good portion of the season (though he was unlucky in my opinion, I’ve never seen anyone hit so many hard hit outs), but he also carried the team through the early part of the season.
his babip was .306 last year, it is .307 on his career.
i don’t think your view of his being unlucky holds up.
The stats might not back me up...
I was going by what I saw. I am a big proponent of BABIP, but you can’t take that as gospel. Just because a guy has a BABIP over .300 doesn’t mean it was luck… necessarily.
And Joe Maddon.
BABIP is a great tool, but there are plenty of players who routinely outperform (or underperform) the stat consistently throughout their careers. Both pitchers and hitters.
he was almost as bad in august and september as he has been this year.
September, close. In August 2010 he hit .261/.303/.409, which is much better than he’s been in 2011.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Ha, actually even September was still above his 2011 line.
I still can’t believe how useless he’s been this year.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
correction:
Kenny loves other teams’ farm products (including lambs) and acquires them 513 years after they’ve been “down on the farm.”
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
Also, no way do we trade Paulie
That would be a fan killing move. Just like the Hawks will never trade Toews. He is the teams one untouchable. He signed a backloaded contract to stay here. After that contract, if he wants to go DH somewhere else than fine. I don’t know if he will, I don’t know how important the HOF is to him.
2012 Rotation
While there’s nothing factually wrong about this article, apart from maybe Humber’s contract situation which I’m not sure of, I can’t say I agree with a lot of the proposed ideas he makes. At this point, Buehrle/Danks looks like an either/or to me. I find it hard to believe the Sox will committ big money to both and between the two, Danks is the much better bet long-term. Trading Floyd, I know he didn’t say it but others have, makes no sense to me. I don’t think he would bring back nearly enough to justify how much he is worth in comparison to his contract. I would sign Danks to a four-year deal, I’ve heard Billingsley’s mentioned as a comp, let Buehrle walk (hopefully with draft picks coming back) and bring Humber back (I don’t think he’s a FA, but I could be wrong). With Peavy, that makes four. And so we get to the 5th spot…
I found this quote particularly hilarious: “If Thornton is moved this winter—and very likely, even if he is not—Sale’s best fit for 2012 is in the bullpen. In 2013, when only Floyd could remain among the core four, makes more sense for a shift to the starting rotation for Sale.” Right, because the best time to break in a starter who has never started a professional game is when he has to be the #2 starter on the staff. Brilliant. Makes a lot more sense to break him in this year before they stand to lose Peavy and possibly Danks. I like Stewart, but Sale looks like a much better bet to stick in the rotation and Stewart’s stuff is just clearly better out of the pen.
Conclusion for the 2012 rotation: Danks, Floyd, Peavy, Humber, Sale
Bullpen: Santos, Thornton, Crane, Addison Reed, Ohman, Stewart, Infante
I don't see Humber repeating anything like this year
He has looked pretty bad recently, I would play Stewart over him if I had to chose. Send Humber to the pen if they have to keep him. I wouldn’t rule Mark from signing a backloaded contract to stay in Chicago though. Especially with the way the Cardinals are looking
I agree there's no way Humber replicates what he did early in the season.
But I think he can still post an ERA below 4.50 and give you solid innings. That’s no small feat. His stuff also wouldn’t play nearly as well out of the pen as Stewart’s would, at least in my mind. Let’s also not forget that Humber is bumping up against his highest inning total so far in his career, so it’s a good bet fatigue has something to do with his struggles.
Beware backloaded contracts! They already deferred money to both AJ and Paulie. That’s a slippery slope to start down, especially when you have the two anchors (Dunn and Rios) pulling you below water for the next few years.
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
i was just going to say this.
the backloaded contracts can get you into an awful lot of trouble in a hurry.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I can already here the cries coming...
“Chicago is a big market!”
“Why can’t we spend more?”
“It’s not like Jerry doesn’t have the money!”
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
well all of that is true to a point.
but backloading contracts is a bad idea.
and jerry spent the money. and the team tanked so he told williams to get rid of some payroll. my guess is jerry isn’t going to pay more than he is comfortable with again for a long time.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Just saying I don't think people understand the financial ramifications of these things.
It’s easy for us to sit here and say “yeah throw a couple extra mil on the back end of that contract if that’s what it takes to get it done”. But the more you do that, the higher your future payroll gets and the more pricey guys get when it’s likely they are going to be regressing. Take a look at the Peavy deal. Even though he’s pitching half decent, he’s totally immovable. Heck I think they are going to have to pay him 4 mil just to get out of that 22 million dollar option on the end of the deal.
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
They are lucky right now
that AJ and Paulie appear to be justifying those contracts so far. If Paulie hits the tank or gets hurt, they are in BIG trouble.
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
i really want to see sale get a chance in the rotation, and i have no trust in humber.
totally agree with mark doing the backloaded contract.
by obnoxious american on Aug 26, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think that equation is correct.
It should read something like this:
“Probably Buehrle > Humber + 12 mil”
I don’t know that I’d agree with that.
i say 'probably' because, at this point, i'd be surprised if he didn't retire a white sox.
also: if they want to win next year, and they are still ‘all in’ contracts-wise, they need a more reliable pitching staff than the one you suggest there. especially if they are easing sale in as a starter.
you can maybe expect peavy to be better after a good offseason and spring training, but i don’t think you’d ever rely on him again. if you want a rotation anchor, there is nobody as reliable as mark buehrle.
halladay sabathia verlander hernandez lincecum
i thnk they are more realiable, but thats just me being a fucking prick
"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza
CC has been very reliable.
this is going to be his 10th/11 year with 30+ starts. dudes a horse. until he sucks. then he goes from “horse” to “fat bastard”.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Hard to believe he has been so reliable with that weight.
Though I did hear he lost like 20 pounds last offseason simply be cutting a box of cocoa puffs out of his daily diet. And yes, you read that right: a WHOLE box per day.
Not sure how you figure that.
They’ve all been consistently better than him and none of them, from my memory, have touched the DL.
was thinking about the 200 innings thing for ten years (going on eleven).
pretty sure doc went down in ’04 and ’05.
True, true.
Forgot about that. Believe that was before he really broke out?
Either way, the point is moot. We all know Buehrle is the picture of consistency, that’s not the issue here. The issue here is whether or not they should pay 10-12 mil per season for a few more years of Buehrle vs. giving a young guy a shot for less than a mil a year. A cost benefit analysis if you will.
you're still speaking about humber as the young guy, right?
because i do firmly believe that buehrle > humber + $12M.
i have liked humber this year and think he could be useful going forward, but buehrle is a quality starts machine.
359 games started in his career, 228 of them of the quality variety. i’d be interested in seeing how that compares to everyone else over the last decade.
i'm not sure that i do.
Humber just has to be worth 2 wins to win that deal by a bit.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I think Danks took the diapers off by now.
He knows how to pitch. Sale? Maybe, but you’re reaching here. colintj makes a very good point and basically what I was trying to say. It’s not that hard of a scenario to envision.
i tend to be very skeptical of that stuff
especially since Coop is so widely respected. but the dynamics of clubhouses are just not something we really get to know about.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I hear you.
Just saying that in the grand scheme of things, I think that type of things is overstated.
that's hard to know for sure
but i would guess not much.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Again, the fanbase shouldn't be a concern here.
I know they have to fill the stadium to make the money to pay for the players, etc. But as we have seen, there is exactly one way to get people to this stadium: WIN. If dumping Buerhle will win them more games in the long run, then do it. If not, don’t.
the fanbase is a big concern
this team isn’t going to be so talented that they can count on winning 90+. i think that’s the prerequisite for knowing the fans will come.
considering both AJ and Buehrle have at least a season of baseball left in them, it could very well be the right move. we’d really need a detailed model for attendance.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
While that's true.
What is they hit the skids hard. Losing with Buehrle will bring in just as many fans as losing without him. I see your point, but my point is that teams should be smart enough to realize when they are crossing the line between making the smart financial choice to bring back a vet the fans love and overpaying for a guy who isn’t really going to tip the attendance scales one way or the other.
i don't think they'll overpay for Buehrle
they’ll get market for him. i know what you’re saying, but there is a very fine calculus at work re: knowing the fanbase. if they’re going to be an average to slightly above team, then they need to be very attuned to the fanbase imo.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
The questions is...
was KW awake during calc? Or was he taking a nap before baseball practice?
you don't think Hahn has been instrumental in
a lot of KW’s work?
i’m all for moving on from the KW-OG regime at this point and getting down with Hahn and whoever. but it’s not like Hahn wasn’t KW’s right hand man.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
How much input do you really think Hahn has had though?
Honestly I have no idea.
And if you're gonna "get down" with Hahn AND the whoever...
make sure you wear a rubber dude.
by polodude017 on Aug 26, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
that's what i meant, i imagine that's the kind of stuff hahn would be bringing to kenny.
that is pure conjecture though.
yeah okay gotcha.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Well if there's going to be a payroll reduction...
and I think we should all be expecting that, it’s going to be very tough to sign both Danks and Buehrle. They almost HAVE to make a decision on Danks this offseason. He’s going to be a FA after next season and it will be very hard to trade him at the deadline next year, assuming of course the Sox are still in the mix. Just answer me that, would you rather sign Danks long-term or Buehrle to another 2 year deal? And if you think it’s possible to bring back both of them, explain how. Trading Thornton would be a start, but I have a feeling that seals the deal and keeps Sale in the pen long-term, which I’m not a fan of.
quentin will likely be offski this offseason.
looks like easy heat might be a goner too, given ozzie’s recent usage of him. that ought to pay for the extra to pay danks.
buehrle will probably get paid the same.
i would also be super pissy should they keep sale in the bullpen for any reason.
i think if they get rid of thornton sale stays in the pen.
if they keep thornton, sale goes to the rotation. in which case one of buehrle/danks is gone.
id love for buehrle to finish his career here, but danks is the better bet going forward. If you could get a nice package for danks and resign buehrle i say do it.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Everyone makes valid points...
though I might argue getting rid of Quentin and Thornton wouldn’t save enough to re-sign Danks and Buehrle.
I wouldn’t be opposed to trading Danks in the right deal, but based on what KW has been able to bring back in trades lately, I’m not seeing him getting enough (in my mind anyways) to justify that move.
And yeah, I’d be pretty pissed if Sale ends up in the pen long-term. Unfortunately I can also very easily see it happening.
danks is making $6M this year,
Q is on $5M and easyheat on $5.5M.
that ought to be more than enough.
buehrle is already making what he should be making.
Danks and Q will make pretty much the same next season
though if they sign Danks long term, you could see that number creeping up in order to get some savings from his FA years. in that case Danks + Buehrle would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $30M in 2012, maybe more.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Remember we're talking long-term here.
Not just next season.
And you can't just dump Q.
They’d have to get a good package for him.
Well it's not as easy as snapping your fingers.
Everyone talked about getting all this talent back for EJ this deadline. How did that go?
there should be demand for Q, though the recent injury is unfortunate.
kenny is the issue on that front though.
and podsnoir should be gone too.
given that it is the white sox, there’s a decent chance they resign him, but it ought to be for a lot cheaper.
If they are really dumb enough to do that...
I might be done. De Aza could out-produce him at a fraction of the cost.
having De Aza on hand does mean needing another replacement level OF
in the system somewhere though. i forget what the Milledge situation is, but i suppose that could work.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
what the sox do with pierre, aj, sale and viciedo this offseason will once and for all determine my feelings towards kenny
i disapprove now, hopefully (hopefully) i changes, and not for the worse.
"The words "becorned can" just beminded my fuck." - SkanchoDanza
He certainly does have a LOT of decisions to make.
Should be a pretty interesting offseason.
What decision does he have to make with AJ though?
Even if they want to roll with Flowers as the starter, which I would be all for, I have a hard time seeing someone picking up that salary.
if Buehrle and AJ are gone
i will give him a lot of credit. but i think the reverse is more likely. Viciedo and Flowers packaged or something like that. and given fan attachments, maybe that is the right move.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
No, I don't put those two together
I think the fans would want Buehrle back, but I don’t see much outcry if AJ is replaced with a better producing Flowers. I also think the outcry to see Viciedo has been loud and long enough that fans want to see him play for the Sox. Personally, I want him to come up to Right field and for Q to get another chance in Left.
Why would you move Quentin to left?
He’s been pretty damn good in right and Viciedo is sub-par at best.
they both suck
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Not according to UZR.
Though I’m sure some here aren’t believers in that metric.
I'm a big believer in that metric.
I’m also a big believer in using the recommended three year sample size, since one year of UZR data is approximately equivalent to a third of a season of batting data.
by mechanical turk on Aug 26, 2011 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I am fairly confident
That Quentin has moved out of “dangerously terrible” territory. I can’t quite buy that he’s suddenly solidly above average, but his defense has been a pleasant surprise still.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Aug 26, 2011 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions
H-E-A-L-T-H
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
pretty sure he's still below average
probably 1B territory.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I agree that it's something you need to take with a grain of salt.
But it’s clear that he’s head and heels above where he was the last few seasons. I guess I should hold off on commenting on Viciedo’s D until I actually see it, but I doubt it’s any better. His arm is probably better though, which could make him a candidate for right.
The amount of time I've told him to do something like this
can be counted easily on a few fingers.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
i don't think fangraphs would be up my alley... probably not in my country... but what the fuck.
i’ll give it a whirl. haha
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
What' FG's policy on profanity?
I think a lot of us would be blacklisted pretty quickly there.
im 99.9 percent sure i've never used profanity in any of my front page stuff.
i’m also 99.9 percent sure i’ve never dissected mathematical shit like they do as well. but i need money so i’ll swing for the fences. haha
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Why do I picture polodude as a guy in a pink golf shirt, collar turned up, wearing sunglasses on a string?
And living in Oak Brook?
But driving an A4 or 3 series BMW?
Aspirational? Poseur?
Note that this isnt an attack, just a comment that I don’t understand such serious engagement with him.
Whatever.
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
I support serious engagement with polodude.
While I’m usually either too impatient or ignorant of specifics to speak at length on a given subject (or simply restricted by my shitty work connection, having to refresh to see new comments), I think it’s good to air out some dirty laundry. Everyone has to learn a better way somehow, and weening oneself from newspapers and talk radio, not to mention listening to Hawk, can be a difficult transition. Props to larry, KenWo, craig and others for consistently doing the dirty work.
boom. pot roast. leftovers? -keystone connection
by Uribe Down on Aug 26, 2011 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
K, whatever.
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
On second thought, no.
You can’t educate him, can’t make him see the light, and certainly can’t sway him with facts or logic.
In those/these cases it truly is biblical references…
You’re wasting your pixels.
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
Not just for him, for lurkers and others reading, too.
boom. pot roast. leftovers? -keystone connection
Ah. I admire your altruism. For real, no snark. But...
At some point you have to realize that engagement confers a legitamicity that may not be warranted. I hope that isnt true in this case, good luck.
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
Legitimacy
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
Of course.
But the good fight needs to be fought. Otherwise you get TasteeFreezes constantly railing against advanced stats, common sense goes out the window, snark becomes a problem instead of a way of handling stupidity, and knowledgeable baseball fans are seen as elitist instead of simply awesome. I’m not saying everyone can or should be saved, but we have to start somewhere. Lives are at stake.
boom. pot roast. leftovers? -keystone connection
by Uribe Down on Aug 27, 2011 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well said
there’s nothing wrong with someone like polodude coming in here and provoking discussion, in fact the same discussions we wish were going on within the white sox organization right now. he didn’t personalize the debate, seemed open minded and made a number of good points. if this isn’t the proper place to discuss such things white sox, then where is?
by moroots on Aug 27, 2011 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Right, and thanks.
Imagine how well I could say things with twenty-seven beers in me.
boom. pot roast. leftovers? -keystone connection
Yup.
Thank you both.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Aug 27, 2011 3:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Whoa, when did this get personal?
I have nothing against anyone here, merely trying to have a conversation about baseball. If anyone was offended, I apologize. I enjoy talking baseball with intelligent people and you guys are certainly that. Just because I have a different opinion than you doesn’t mean I’m attacking you or have a problem with you. Take it easy.
He said you didn't make it personal.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I know he didn't
But Chiburb seems to be taking it that way.
Bit of advice.
Don’t tell people to take it easy.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Don't see where you're headed with this.
The guy you just described is the guy I make fun of at the bar.
I don't think that's fair
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
K, whatever.
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
You'll see.
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
wir werden sehen
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I haven't read any of polodude's comments, but Audi has been the choice of the guy with the bluetooth headset who thinks six inches is an appropriate following distance on the highway for several years now.
But I’d go with the S4. It’s a bit flashier.
by mechanical turk on Aug 26, 2011 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Viciedo has just been taken out of the game...
Is he gonna be finally promoted???!!!
I'd put this in the string above, but it's way too long already.
I think KW is getting too much credit for “making the correct move at the time”. The whole process from him wanting Dunn to him convincing Jerry to ante up to him signing Dunn was reminiscent of a 16 year-old girl convincing her Dad to buy her a new Mercedes when a Honda Accord would have easily been a substantial upgrade over the Yugo she was driving. Oh yeah, then the wheels fell off the Mercedes.
you can't compare dunn to a mercedes.
you should compare him to a toyota pick-up truck. he was remarkably consistent.
I rest my case.
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
so we should've gotten mark kotsay
im mean… wait forget what i said.
fadite
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
Risk of the contract as we discussed above.
Just saying, they could have had someone for less risk in terms of contract that could have certainly provided an upgrade over Kotsay. i.e. Thome as I believe larry mentioned above. Not saying I was sitting here preaching Thome, but there were plenty of guys available, be it through FA or trade, that could have been had to play that spot.
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