Ruminations on Retaliation, Part I: No fear pitching White Sox inside
I'm normally not an intense baseball fan, but after the White Sox suffered their fourth HBP of the doubleheader -- and the third of the nightcap alone -- I discovered the source of Hawk Harrelson's bloodlust.
It's one thing to be beaten on the scoreboard, as has too often been the case this month. It's another to be beaten up physically, and the Sox have taken their lumps relative to the opposition. The White Sox have racked up 334 HBPs over the last five years, which is the fifth-highest total in baseball., and their pitching has dished out 223 of them, which is the third-lowest.
That tells you that the White Sox leave a lot of bruises unavenged for, and the ones they earned today led to one thought after another, until I had to split it into two parts.
I'm a fan of Alexei Ramirez, but he might be the least physical White Sox player since Frank Thomas. Granted, the Big Hurt towered over the plate, but when the bat was out of his hands, he was a surprisingly delicate player.
Ramirez is in the same mold. He avoids contact at second when turning two, which takes him well to the side of the bag, but he has the arm strength to compensate. He's frustrated Hawk Harrelson by taking throws from the catcher in front of the bag on stolen-base attempts, although when he tried to take A.J. Pierzynski's short-hop over the bag in Game 1 of Tuesday's doubleheader, it skipped under his glove and into center field.
But he might've saved the least combative play of his life for when the Sox could've used an edge the most. After he took a fastball to the left shoulder for the Sox's third plunking of the evening -- and fourth in the doubleheader -- he had the opportunity for a Carlos Quentin-type steamroll over Jason Kipnis at second. Instead, he did a feet-first slide about eight feet short of the bag.
That brought to mind the notoriously weak effort by Carlos Lee after the Torii Hunter-Jamie Burke incident -- and Ozzie Guillen wasn't a fan of it.
"We go after somebody, and hopefully we hurt somebody," he said. "That's the way to go. [Monday night] we had two opportunities to do it, and we didn't do it." [...]
"If we don't like it, go and play softball or go play tennis or something else," he said.
"If you want to play big-league baseball, that's the way to play big-league baseball. I want them to grow up like that. I don't want them to be a bunch of ladies playing this game."
After this game? Guillen didn't see much to be mad about, as Brett Ballantini relays:
"Obviously, I was upset, but I don’t think they were throwing at [us]," manager Ozzie Guillen said. "It’s a bunch of kids coming from the minor leagues, and you can’t do nothing about it. Just run to first base and go get the trainer, that’s all you can do. I doubt they threw at [us]."
Those might be "kids coming from the minor leagues," but they were doing major damage by throwing inside recklessly -- whether they wanted to or not.

This is especially concerning because Cleveland relievers have been knocking down White Sox hitters like they're stacked three-tall in a carnival booth.
It really started last August, when Frank Herrmann dealt the Sox's playoff hopes a severe blow by drilling Gordon Beckham in the hand. It cost the Sox their hottest hitter for the remainder of the season, and the Sox didn't have the firepower to keep up with the torrid Twins.
Here are all the Indians-on-White-Sox HBPs since that day:
| Date | Batter | Opp | Pitcher | Score | Inn | RoB | Out | Pit(cnt) | Play Description |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2010-08-30 | Juan Pierre | @CLE | Mitch Talbot | ahead 0-3 | t2 | 1-3 | 0 | 4 (2-1) | Hit By Pitch; Beckham to 2B |
| 2010-08-30 | Gordon Beckham | @CLE | Frank Herrmann | ahead 3-6 | t7 | -23 | 2 | 3 (1-1) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2010-09-01 | Manny Ramirez | @CLE | Justin Germano | ahead 4-5 | t8 | --- | 2 | 2 (1-0) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-04-01 | Paul Konerko | @CLE | Justin Germano | ahead 0-8 | t4 | -23 | 0 | 1 (0-0) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-04-03 | Gordon Beckham | @CLE | Justin Masterson | ahead 0-1 | t5 | -2- | 1 | 5 (1-2) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-05-19 | Alexei Ramirez | CLE | Fausto Carmona | down 1-0 | b1 | -2- | 0 | 1 (0-0) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-07-22 | Gordon Beckham | @CLE | Carlos Carrasco | tied 0-0 | t2 | 1-- | 2 | 1 (0-0) | Hit By Pitch; Pierzynski to 2B |
| 2011-09-08 | Brent Lillibridge | CLE | Josh Judy | ahead 1-4 | b7 | 1-3 | 1 | 4 (1-2) | Hit By Pitch; Pierre to 2B |
| 2011-09-08 | Tyler Flowers | CLE | Josh Judy | ahead 1-8 | b8 | --- | 1 | 4 (1-2) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-09-09 | Tyler Flowers | CLE | Nick Hagadone | down 8-3 | b9 | 1-- | 2 | 2 (0-1) | Hit By Pitch; Viciedo to 2B |
| 2011-09-10 | Paul Konerko | CLE | Fausto Carmona | down 2-1 | b5 | --- | 2 | 3 (2-0) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-09-20 | Alexei Ramirez | @CLE | Fausto Carmona | down 3-2 | t5 | --- | 1 |
2 (1-0) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-09-20 | Paul Konerko | @CLE | Zach Putnam | ahead 5-4 |
t7 | 1-- | 1 | 1 (0-0) | Hit By Pitch; Ramirez to 2B |
| 2011-09-20 | Gordon Beckham | @CLE | Josh Judy | ahead 5-4 | t9 | --- | 0 | 5 (3-1) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-09-20 | Alexei Ramirez | @CLE | Josh Judy | ahead 5-4 | t9 | -2- | 1 |
4 (1-2) | Hit By Pitch |
Compare that to the number of White-Sox-on-Indians HBPs:
| Date | Batter | Opp | Pitcher | Score | Inn | RoB | Out | Pit(cnt) | Play Description |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2010-09-01 | Jayson Nix | CHW | Freddy Garcia | down 1-0 | b2 | --- | 0 | 4 (2-1) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-05-19 | Asdrubal Cabrera | @CHW | Gavin Floyd | tied 0-0 | t1 | --- | 1 | 4 (1-2) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-07-22 | Jason Kipnis | CHW | Gavin Floyd | down 3-0 | b8 | 1-- | 1 | 6 (2-2) | Hit By Pitch; Chisenhall to 2B |
| 2011-08-16 | Michael Brantley | @CHW | Gavin Floyd | down 2-0 | t4 | --- | 0 | 10 (2-2) | Hit By Pitch |
| 2011-08-18 | Michael Brantley | @CHW | Will Ohman | ahead 2-3 | t6 | 1-3 | 1 | 4 (0-2) | Hit By Pitch; Hannahan to 2B |
| 2011-08-18 | Jason Donald | @CHW | Sergio Santos | ahead 2-4 | t9 | --- | 0 | 1 (0-0) | Hit By Pitch |

The Indians have hit twice as many White Sox, and what Josh Judy is doing is almost criminal.
Down in Triple-A Columbus, Judy pitched 52 innings. He hit just one batter.
Against all other major-league teams, Judy has thrown nine innings. He hasn't hit anybody.
Against the White Sox, Judy has thrown 3 2/3 innings. He has hit four batters.
This doesn't tell me that Judy is throwing at the White Sox intentionally. But his performance, when combined with what his colleagues are doing, strongly suggests that they've been advised to pitch inside as freely as they'd like.
The Minnesota Twins operate by the same playbook. Known for being control artists, the Twins have plunked just 98 batters since the start of the 2010 season...
... and a quarter of them have been White Sox (23). Carlos Quentin isn't really padding the stats, because he's only responsible for three of them. No, it seems to be a team-wide strategy, because the next-highest number of HBPs for a single team belongs to the Tigers (14), and everybody else has been hit by Twins pitching fewer than 10 times. Some Twins seem to work inside only to the White Sox, like Nick Blackburn (who dealt five of his eight HBPs to Sox hitters), or Glen Perkins (four of five), or Matt Capps (three of four).
The Twins came to mind when watching Paul Konerko's uncommonly irate reaction to Putnam's fastball to the hip. But since we're 1,200 words into this and I'm only about halfway through, let's save the second part for lunchtime...
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Someone on this team, do something, about anything, sometime, please!
Konerko reacted more strongly last night to the HBP than he did to the Grand Slam in the WS.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 21, 2011 6:53 AM CDT reply actions
good work.
i was surprised they didn’t re-show alexei’s slide so hawk could tell the kids how not to do it.
also, and there’s probably no way to know this, i wonder how many times teams have been warned not to hit anyone before they have even hit anyone. i know for sure i remember one time, and i think there have been more than that, when the other team has hit the sox and both teams have been warned before the sox even had a chance to throw at someone.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Do you think that Ozzie Guillen is so firmly tethered under the umpire's microscope that
he or his players have found it difficult to retaliate without repurcussions that are more significant than they would have been if it was a Don Wakamatsu managed team, for example?
or more properly
that perception that there would be be more significant repurcussions. Is Ozzie’s outspoken personality holding the White Sox back in this department or do we have a team full of pansies?
or is it a team of guys that just don't care?
Maybe retaliation is too “rah-rah” for the “quiet leaders” in the clubhouse.
I shant be misled a second time
I think so, yeah. I actually came here to post the same thing.
How many times in the past few years have we seen a Sox get plunked and then watched both dugouts get warned, before there was even a chance for retaliation? Despite his teams not hitting a lot of batters, past admittances that they were throwing at the opposition intentionally by guys such as Jenks (notably when he didn’t even get the job done) and Ozzie’s firebranditude (real word, look it up) seem to make umpires a little more wary of any HBP by a Sox than HBPs by other teams.
Not being entirely rational, I will occasionally call for blood but generally I acknowledge that free bases are not the best idea in the world, and it sure as shit seems like every time I get the revenge plunking I want the next pitch sails over the fence.
If the Sox are gonna do this, it has to be an always rule, not a sometimes rule. If you throw in on Sox players and hit someone, the next pitch your team sees will be hard and extra inside. No compromises. I don’t care if it’s Thome. I don’t care if it’s inexplicably Frank Thomas. I don’t care if it’s Santa Claus, accidentally lost and having arrived at home plate to distribute hugs and toys and wishes of holiday cheer to all the little boys and girls in the land. You’re going down, fat man. Collateral damage. They throw inside and high, we throw inside and higher. They send one of ours to the hospital, we send one of theirs to the morgue. That’s the Chicago way.
We must create an environment of mutually assured destruction here. So great must the consequences be for a single transgression that only a fool would consider throwing inside. There is no halfway on this. Opponents ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge.
by mechanical turk on Sep 21, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 10 recs
To paraphrase the West Wing:
Did you know that two thousand years ago a Roman citizen could walk across the face of the known world free of the fear of molestation? He could walk across the Earth unharmed, cloaked only in the protection of the words civis Romanus — I am a Roman citizen. So great was the retribution of Rome, universally certain, should any harm befall even one of its citizens.
Where was Konerko’s protection, or anybody else on that team? Where was the retribution for the families, and where is the warning to the rest of the league that White Sox shall walk this Earth unharmed, lest the clenched fist of the most mighty pitching staff in the history of mankind comes crashing down on your house?! In other words, mechanical turk, what the hell are we doing here?!
I wholeheartedly agree with everything here, even though it is very emotional...I'm fed up with following an organization that doesn't do things the correct way
Things like sliding hard and retaliating for indescretions was instilled in me as a young ball player, for good or bad. Obviously Cuba plays a different brand of baseball but you have to do the extra things to play with a swagger. Most of the guys on our team don’t do the extra things. You can’t have a team full of AJ’s of course, nor would I want one but the management needs to instruct these people that kicking dirt in your opponents eyes is not frowned upon. I STILL fucking going hard into 2nd in beer league softball, there is a correct way to do it where you aren’t a dick for doing so. You don’t need to go in with your spikes at knee level. I get frusterated watching zero retaliation on ‘inside’ pitches and the numbers Jim put forth support this irritation, I hate rooting for a team that does nothing in that regard because it goes against the fabric of my being. I’d like to say, Ozzie wasn’t always such a passive guy…he has regressed on that level. He got comfortable with that World Series victory and when people get comfortable sometimes they just go through the motions, revelling in their instability. I blame Guillen and Guillen only.
So you learned to play ball in Cuba?
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
by winningugly on Sep 21, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Does this play even exist anymore?
I’ve heard that one-old school retaliatory move was to drag a bunt down the first base line and then plow into the pitcher as he’s in the process of fielding the ball. I’m trying to remember if I’ve ever seen it done.
For instance there’s an account from "Baseball’s Great Tragedy, The Story of Carl Mays—Submarine Pitcher," by Bob McGarigle. Yankees pitcher Mays and Detroit’s Ty Cobb had a history of dustups. Passing the Tiger’s locker room before one game, Mays saw Cobb sitting down and filing his spikes. As Mays tells it, Cobb threatened the pitcher. So on the first pitch of Cobb’s first at bat, Mays threw inside and put Cobb on his ass. With the count 1-0, Mays says:
I had to come in with the next pitch, in order to get even on the count, and [Cobb] dragged a bunt down the first base line. I ran over, fielded the ball and turned to toss it to first base. But I never completed the play. Just as I was about to toss an underhand lob I was slammed into from behind and knocked sprawling on the foul line. At the same time I felt one of Cobb’s spikes rip into the calf of my left leg while his other tore my pants from the belt line right down to the back of my knee. Cobb had run fight over me. I lay there stunned for a moment and then rolled over onto the infield grass and sat up. When I got courage enough to look at my leg, it was just a bloody mess. I remember wondering if I would ever run again.
(Cited here)
I don’t think any player today would go all Sweeny Cobb on a pitcher’s leg, but why not send him to the turf? Have you ever done this, or seen it done? I think there are some recent examples that I’m forgetting.
by Secret Chimp on Sep 21, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
No one does things like this anymore, they get laid on the regular and are filthy rich, no reason to dick the dog and harsh everyones good times.
There is no reason to be rotten. However, there is a way to slide into second that can send a message. For one, you have to slide later and not brace for a pop-up slide…you have to slide through the SS or 2Bman’s legs like you are trying to slide halfway to the outfield grass. You are trying to take out two to break up the double play. You can turn your back into their legs as well to get more surface area and that way they tumble over your body. There is a difference between sharpening your spikes and going hard into two. Even if NO ONE had been plunked Alexei should have gone hard into two but since FOUR people had been plunked, i would have liked to see more gusto on going in hard. Maybe it is a stranger in a strangeland thing, who knows.
You're just a regular Valentine Michael Smith
"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ
by Shoeless In SC on Sep 21, 2011 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
my guy c lee is having a fine season this year by the way.
wish we had him instead of dunn.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
boy-o-boy, you got that right!
This team reeks of apathy
Sabermetrics hurt my head, just give me the facts.
Amazed that Ozzie does not act more "old school" in this regard.
An eye for an eye, man. Protect your players. I’ve not liked this trend for a few years now.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
he used to. it was kind of what i liked about him. i thought it was great when he made that dude cry.
now he’s a puss.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
That's the sad part.
Very true. He’s taken too many hits in the media – and “diversity training”, fer Chrissakes. I think the Mariotti flap and the subsequent outrage at his “gay” talk helped shut him down. (I sound like 815 now, but so be it.)
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
if you think Ozzie is not responding because of media hits
you have it twisted. Ozzie uses the media aggressively, as he should. In his eyes, he can’t lose—he gets to hold court at least twice a day for six months. And if his message is ever misdirected—the pissing on the statues controversy comes to mind in Toronto this year—he will throw the media under the bus with denials.
What crushed me last night wasn’t some brusque talk from Ozzie about hitting tons of Wahoos, as LaRussa would do. I get that as a poor strategy to operate “legally” within baseball. But to not get even as angry as he did at El Caballo? For Gordon to excuse his HBP? For Alexei to not want to speak? For PK to not even be available post?
No one, pitcher, batter, coach, had any comment aside from excusing a Cleveland whoopsie. That’s weak.
by Chet Lemonhead on Sep 21, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
in alexei's defense... do we know for sure if he CAN speak? lol
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
"nobody ed?"
“nobody.”
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
by BuehrleMan on Sep 21, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Since he's doing speaking commercials with Ed Farmer and Beckham doesn't speak Spanish,
I think it’s safe to guess he speaks a modicum of English.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 21, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
he sounds like an alien in those commercials
not that kind of alien, a real alien
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
I'm not suggesting he doesn't use the MSM to his advantage -
witness his “extend me” BS this last few days. Something has softened his stool, though. Metamucil? He can’t control the national press, which is where he gets the majority of his negative press.
Or is it possible the infighting with Kenny has worn him out? Or maybe it’s Oney, Twitter, and SouthSideSox? I’d enjoy hearing your thoughts.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
by winningugly on Sep 21, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
agreed, there's a lack of fight
Literally, at the moment, he’s really sick, but even still, he’s been having longer and longer pregame media sessions.
He has been very pointed in saying he will not “order” a hit because he is no longer playing, and won’t suffer any ramifications. Obviously we have Tracey and Garland exceptions, but by and large he wants his players to do that bidding. It is astounding to me that on a 30-man team no one will stand up. A.J. was speaking casually about it but I don’t know that he said anything different (I was across the room, wrestling with my camera)—he certainly didn’t round up a gathering to postulate on the subject, pro or con.
As for Ozzie giving up, I think he knows he has a job next year—here with the White Sox, where he feels he’s earned more leverage than a one-year deal (yes and no), or Florida, or, truthfully, anywhere who will have him. He knows he will be paid next year, to manage, to go watch bullfights as he waits to manage in 2013, whatever.
He says he has his family’s full support to follow him anywhere, although his first choice is clearly Chicago. So his spirit being deflated—he said as much yesterday, in a rare moment, admitting he had to look in the mirror and wondering if he was really THAT good a manager. So things remain interesting, if not a little less feisty.
by Chet Lemonhead on Sep 21, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah but he also yelled at Garland for throwing behind someone twice
I think it was 2006.
by notoneyguillen on Sep 21, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
this!
The pussification of this team is embarrassing. What I liked about (early years) Ozzie was nobody effed with our hitters & didn’t expect retaliation!
There’s no fight in this team.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
pussification-in?
prospective 2012 slogan
by Chet Lemonhead on Sep 21, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Awesome.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
by winningugly on Sep 21, 2011 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Years of abuse
Can be rectified with one bullpen game, just pick out the twins or indians for one game, drill one player every inning, with expanded rosters and these games being meaningless it doesnt matter if a bunch of guys get tossed or suspended, but atleast you head into 2012 by putting the thought into other teams that our guys are tired of being plunked.
chicken or egg
There’s a general passivity that’s crept onto the roster and Jim has identified one of its symptoms. I’d like to see a statistical analysis on WSox hat-tip quotes, another symptom of passivity.
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
The best
retaliation would be for the next batter up to get a God Damn fucking hit and drive the batter that just got plucked in for a run. This teams problem for the last three season is their inability to get a God Damn fucking hit with RISP. This team lacks respect because of their lack of clutch hitting not whether or not they retaliate for a hit batsman.
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
This.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 21, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Nope. Not mutually exclusive.
Getting a few extra hits doesn’t stop the opposition from pitching inside recklessly.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Sep 21, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
Getting more clutch hits may result in more hit batsman. I say “bring it on”.
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
"Bring that shit to me!"
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
by winningugly on Sep 21, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Q doesn't seem like a factor in the HBP numbers
But I wonder if his presence has altered the way the Sox think of these things to the point that they barely notice the pattern.
Q is a life-long pitch magnet. It seems to be part of who he is, so you don’t think anything of it. See him get hit enough, the Sox start to get desensitized to these “oopsies” pitchers keep having pitching inside on them. It starts to seem normal, they lose some of that macho indigence.
i think he is a factor.
while i only eyeballed it, it’s interesting that players who come from other teams seem to be getting hit the same or less now that they’re with the white sox. while i’m not going to opine as to whether teams are throwing at the white sox more, or are pitching inside more, because that would take a long time to figure out, the largest factor may well be that white sox players are simply more prone to getting hit because of their approach in the box.
Agreed!
When I was watching the replay on CSN, I kept waiting to see some WS reliever plunk an Indian, and the ump give a warning, ozzie get ejected etc. Sack up!
Easy chief
We’re a community - Tdogg
The problem is the way this team is built, there are so many close games
The White Sox don’t blow anybody out, so I understand the reluctance to put a baserunner on in the late innings of a close game for the sole purpose of retaliation. Last night is a prime example. However, there’s no excuse for taking care of business in the early goings of the next game, which hasn’t happened.
And as a descendant of the Jewish Defense League,
I would imagine you are continually shamed with this lack of posture. We need to go Old Testament on the league’s ass.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
by winningugly on Sep 21, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Take the fight to the enemy, I like it
We don’t even need to go all the way back to the Old Testament, how bout getting all Six-Day War style on their ass
Both games yesterday were close, I know you are talking in general but
the Indians don’t have a problem with the bigger picture.
The intent is at issue
Retaliation means deliberate throwing at a batter. Other than Padilla, I can’t think of a time where I was confident an opposing pitcher intentionally threw at a White Sox. The Indians weren’t deliberately trying to bean the Sox, they were recklessly throwing inside. It’s still a mentality that puts winning the game first. Deliberately throwing at an opposing batter in a tight game puts the retaliation goal ahead of the win-the-game goal

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