Ruminations on Retaliation, Part II: Sox seldomly defend selves
This is the second of a two-part series. Read the first part so the following makes more sense...
The stage is set for Mark Buehrle to send a message to the Cleveland Indians tonight, and like they always say, revenge is a dish best served with 84-mph heat.
When Buehrle broke Ramon Castro's throwing hand with a pitch Castro couldn't pick up, Ozzie Guillen joked that he didn't think Buehrle was capable of inflicting harm with his fastball. So it's far from an ideal arrangement, but there's really no way around it. The point of Buehrle plunking a guy is to trigger the warning from the umpire, which would hopefully take away half the plate from a Cleveland pitching staff that doesn't have the greatest command, and whether it inflicts any memorable pain is secondary.
But if it works like the last time this task fell on Buehrle, the Indians will be happy for the free base. Unless he ends up hitting Travis Hafner in the face again, but I don't think anybody would advise that.
Last September, Buehrle had to hit a Minnesota Twin the day inning after Paul Konerko took a Carl Pavano fastball to the face and secured his place in in portable DVD player lore. Buehrle technically got the job done, but as it so happens with this revenge thing, it came back to bite the Sox. He hit Michael Cuddyer to lead off the second, but it sparked a three-run inning, and the Twins held onto the lead the rest of the way. That loss sealed a Minnesota sweep, so, yeah, it ended up as little more than an empty gesture.
I'm trying to think of the last time the Sox aggressively and effectively executed the score-evening HBP, and the last one that comes to mind is the one that resulted in a three-game suspension for David Riske back in 2006, when he hit St. Louis' Chris Duncan. Sidney Ponson already prompted the warning by himself when he hit two batters with the bases loaded. Normally, pitchers wouldn't use a run-scoring situation for petty vengeance, but Ponson has a history of being an idiot, and Tony La Russa enables such behavior when he's unhappy -- and at that point, the White Sox were leading 13-2.
Riske did what he had to do -- with two outs and first base open, he drilled Chris Duncan, which made his dad very sad. He was ejected, but Neal Cotts finished the inning and the White Sox went unscored upon.
That's a little sad that June 19, 2006 is the most recent example that comes to mind when thinking of this particular brand of swift baseball justice. The closest one I can think of was Bobby Jenks throwing behind Ian Kinsler in 2009, which isn't quite the same thing. If anybody can fill in that gap, let me know.

Guillen was also suspended a game, and that was one of a few problems he faced during that time, as all his ... idiosyncrasies ... came to a head. At the time of the Duncan plunkin', he was dealing with the fallout for using a gay slur on Jay Mariotti, and six days earlier, he embarrassed himself and the organization with The Sean Tracey Incident.
Earlier that season, Guillen acknowledged he had a burgeoning reputation as a "headhunter." He earned it more with his words than his actions. Three months after he started managing the Sox, he told the media that he wanted his players to slide hard enough to "break the bone," which was an overreaction to Carlos Lee's weaksauce attempt to break up a double play after Torii Hunter knocked Jamie Burke out of a game.
But the Sox didn't play a particularly nasty brand of baseball, and when The Sean Tracey Incident blew up in the media and Jon Garland tried to coax another Traceyesque reaction from Guillen a month later, the Sox have almost entirely removed themselves from the retaliation game. I wrote a piece about it on Sox Machine in 2009, and little to nothing has changed, despite the occasional tough talk.

It's not all on Guillen, though. After I mentioned The Sean Tracey Incident on Twitter, Chris Rongey responded over a couple of tweets:
More often than not, pitchers take it upon themselves to do that. Usually not from the dugout [...] It happens, just not often. Almost always left to P's. That's why "unprotected" hitters get mad at teammates 4 non-retaliation
That's true, and it's likely a byproduct of the Sox's preference for rather vanilla personalities. The Sean Tracey Incident took place because Javier Vazquez failed to retailiate for Vincente Padilla's dual-plunkings of A.J. Pierzynski -- even though Vazquez knew they were intentional. He just... didn't act on it. One month later, Garland threw behind Kinsler for more Padilla misdeeds, which triggered the warning but didn't really punish Padilla for his recklessness.
Buehrle aside, the last four pitchers who I can remember throwing at a hitter in defense of their own are no longer on the team (Tracey, Riske, Jenks, and D.J. Carrasco, who somehow missed Billy Butler in 2008). What's left are a bunch of guys who aren't in the business of starting (and/or continuing) something.

It's the same story with position players. When Alexei Ramirez took the fastball to the shoulder, a mound-charging would have been defensible. He was the third player hit over the course of three innings, the second hit by Josh Judy, and the pitchers were increasingly high and tight.
But Ramirez, like Konerko and Gordon Beckham before him, took his base after walking off the pain. And that led me to wonder if the Sox had anybody capable of starting a fight.
A.J. Pierzynski is the obvious answer, but I don't see it. He might be the "meanest player in baseball," but it's in the manner of the wrestling heel he aspires to be -- the worst is when the refs aren't looking. In plain and open sight, he mostly abides by the rules. I could see him gunning hard for the takeout slide of Jason Kipnis, but I don't think he's a guy who would be the first to sprint to the mound.
Carlos Quentin would be my next guess, but he had an opportunity to rush the mound after Zack Greinke buzzed his tower, and he resisted the urge. Looking up and down the roster, I'd guess Shane Lindsay could handle himself, if Foster's commercials and Crocodile Dundee are any indications. Otherwise, it's pretty slim pickings.
They do have one more option, though, and he's only a phone call away:
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I fully advise hitting Travis Halfner in the face.
It would only improve things.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 21, 2011 12:05 PM CDT reply actions
Q! charges the mound, picks up the pitcher, and the tangle of humanity slams to the ground, breaking Q!s china shoulder
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
As Q charges the mound
he strains his quad and will probably be put on the 15 day DL.
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
by phastphil on Sep 21, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
AJ took one to the face from Michael Barrett, so
I also would not trust him to start the fire. I think Beckham should do it. He’s from the SEC, dammit, and is a good Southern boy who probably isn’t afraid of much – except a fastball thigh-high.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
Buehrle's retaliation for Konerko was the same game, next inning
http://espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=300916104
Got some hearty applause, but was obviously overshadowed by Paulie’s next plate appearance
Thanks. Got my days mixed up.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Sep 21, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Adam Dunn should be the Sox' resident bad ass...
…but, well, we all know how that played out this year.
Sad ass, maybe.
"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)
he'd take a swing and miss
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
by greenlight on Sep 21, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
robin ventura wasn't the kind of guy to do it and he did it.
sure it didn’t end up the best for him… but somebody has to take a stand for christ sakes. Rios? Pierre? i dunno. we have a bunch of bland assclowns on the team.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
if Rios could translate his rage at the bubble gum to the opposing pitcher...
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
by greenlight on Sep 21, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
what are the consequences - if after a warning - there is another HBP?
I have never seen this event.
by hoodlight on Sep 21, 2011 12:36 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Usually the offending player is ejected, and usually when a player is ejected the manager's ejection isn't far behind.
But it’s September, and we’ve got lots a pitchers. Time to use ’em.
by mechanical turk on Sep 21, 2011 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
in cricket you can aim at the batter anytime you like
and a cricket ball is heavier – they are all a bunch of pansies
by hoodlight on Sep 21, 2011 12:44 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Cricket? Nobody understands cricket!
You gotta know what a crumpet is to understand Cricket!
It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.
by SonOfCron on Sep 21, 2011 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't worry. I appreciate this.
TMNT movie reference. Love it.
"Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. It's more democratic" - Crash Davis
by Servant2LordBeckham on Sep 22, 2011 4:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Riske did it after the warning in '06. There's a link to a story up there.
He was ejected and suspended for three games, Guillen one. Both were fined.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Sep 21, 2011 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Also, that was June 20, 2006. I was at that game.
To this day, I maintain that after Ponson’s second HBP, I started a stadium-wide chant of, “OZ-ZIE! OZ-ZIE!”
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
Why not? If you put them on, they won't score anyway.
"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)
Speaking of MB, he put the team first back in '05:
Even though he was pitching his best game in over a month, Mark Buehrle wasn’t able to get through the 6th inning for the first time in his last 50 starts. Buehrle beaned B.J. Surhoff with 2 outs in the bottom of the 5th inning with a fastball in retaliation for A.J. Pierzynski (earlier in the inning) and Tadahito Iguchi (earlier in the series) getting beaned. Home plate umpire Brian Gorman tossed Buehrle from the game immediately.
“We had a guy hit yesterday and then A.J. gets hit,” Buehrle said. "Their catcher sets up away and the pitcher comes up and in and hits [Pierzynski].
“Obviously, you guys were out there and you’ve seen the game. People who know baseball know what happened. I can’t comment on that, but I was surprised I got tossed.”
That’s classic Buehrle. He’s honest with the media to a fault. He probably even said a little bit too much there.
I know it seems like a small thing, but this is just another example of why this team keeps on winning. Last year, we were complaining about pitchers not protecting their teammates, Loaiza and Thriller specifically. This team sticks together. They seem to put the team first before thinking about their individual stats and paychecks. They just play the game the right way. You don’t see that anymore, and that’s sad.
http://www.southsidesox.com/2005/8/2/0016/92204
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
by Chiburb on Sep 21, 2011 1:01 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Desensitization
Perhaps all the plunkings by Pierre and Quentin, which are in large part due to their willingness to take one for the team and their stance in the box, have caused the team to take a rather blah reaction to the act. Dunno, it’s a theory.
"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ
geez, maybe the sox need an enforcer
kinda like a hockey team… only you don’t get to be quite so overt about it. maybe that’s a “6th tool” people need to start caring about- standing up for teammates and not taking crap from opponents.
and kudos to ventura— at least he had the dignity to not put up with it.
You mean the Nolan Ryan "noogies" incident?
"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)
Also speaking of MB:
He needs 7 2/3 innings to reach 200.
Personally, I hope 2 things:
1. He pitches well enough to last that long (for a recent change).
2. After getting 7 2/3 he gets tossed.
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
He needs to do a Kershaw.
Be pitching a one-hitter and get tossed. Agreed.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
I would very much enjoy seeing a bench-clearing brawl just so we can plainly see who mans up and who cares enough
We saw Brian Anderson andMagglio Ordonez do some good work in such circumstances over the last decade. I wouldn’t have guessed those guys were the type. Who knows, maybe Zach Stewart has a nice dragon punch or perhaps Ohman has a nice left.
Flowers, for one,
needs to dispel the “soft” tag.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
Good call
He probably had a large fight percentage in highschool. He probably knows how to maneauver within a pack of pussies.
he won't want to risk losing his backup job next year though
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
peavy and danks seem to me, the "hardest" players on the team.
they could do it. danks wouldnt hurt his september at all, hit the first 3 batter you face, call it a night. at this point i would greatly accept a “FUCK YOU” during a staredown walking to 1st. even it resulted in just a “FUCK YOU” and our player standing on 1st.
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
Peavy in particular
has recounted with relish his past brawls, not always at the prompting of Ed Farmer.
Putting aside the fact that at this juncture in his career, participating in a brawl would be the absolute dumbest thing he could do, the Bulldog is itching to get back into one.
by Chet Lemonhead on Sep 21, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I can imagine him injuring himself while Herm Schneider holds him back, a la Milton Bradley with the Padres.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Sep 21, 2011 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
That was hilarious
He somehow tore his ACL by screaming.
by notoneyguillen on Sep 21, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
One of Peavy's little remaining redeeming values
He strikes me as the first to want to go high and inside or let one get away to protect. Of course he can’t wait for the winter to hit so he can properly prepare for the coming battle royale.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Especially he was a "Full Tilt Poker" customer.
He is sorely pissed.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
I got nothing to say
Clearly I have zero perspective and don’t want my opinion to amuse anyone.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I am sure our friend, plunkeveryone, is watching this series very closely...With bated breath, and whispring humblenesse
indubitably
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
This is not how I expected you folks to be celebrating breaking the team record for plunks
82 HBPs this year, besting the previous White Sox record of 79 set in 2005 (a good year) and tied in 2010.
But I know that it gets annoying when a particular teams starts using your guys for target practice. The Red Sox have hit the Yankees 18 times this season… but they probably deserve it. The Indians got hit 21 times by the Tigers in 2008. The White Sox got hit 16 times by the Indians back in 1956. Also the Twins have hit the White Sox more often than Cleveland has 13 to 12, although 4 of those Twins plunks were to Q! so that should hardly count if you’re making a case about them throwing at your team. Q! is obviously just a plunk magnet. And a great one. When he’s not on the DL.
Actually the remarkable thing about Cleveland hitting 12 White Sox this year is that they never hit Quentin.
Hafner is closing in on the Indians’ franchise record for career HBPs though, so he could probably use some plunks.
by plunkeveryone on Sep 21, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 12 recs
Pretty funny guy.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
worked for u-god and a winning streak.
I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.
by thatshortkid on Sep 21, 2011 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
if i was a pitcher against the yankees i'd never make it out of the first inning
because i’d be drilling batter after batter
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
How dare those players make more money than others!
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
i feel it would be more from my horrible pitching ability
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
That's deep.
How can I really be sure if I’m a real person or somebody’s alter ego?
by plunkeveryone on Sep 26, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
De aza7, ramirez 6, Pierzynski DH, rios 8, dunn 3, viciedo 9, morel 5, flowers 2, beckham 4, buehrle 1
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
is our enforcer behind door #3, door #4, door #5, door #8, or door #10?
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
im going with flowers
he is like the boy named sue. surely he mixed it up as a young’in for having that last name.
no pierre?!
"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ
by Shoeless In SC on Sep 21, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
got to find out at some point if Alejandro can play The Leadoff Position
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
gamethread
White Sox Baseball: We're (Still) All Ineffective
Bear down, Chicago Bears!
Philadelphia Phillies: FIVE-TIME NL EAST CHAMPS!

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