Three years, gone? That's how Ozzie got his job
After Sunday's 2-1 loss to the Kansas City Royals, Ozzie Guillen and his White Sox could no longer avoid their second losing season in three years. It's also the third straight year the Sox failed to make the playoffs, which would lead one to believe that Guillen doesn't have a whole lot of leverage in negotiating his future.
Even Guillen realizes it. It's hard keeping track of all individual instances of doubletalk -- he said he'd give himself a "Z" on an A-to-F scale, but says that he wouldn't change how he managed the season -- but I think this statement from a couple days ago trumps all:
Thumbs up to whoever asked that question, because it forced Guillen to adopt the perspective of an objective party.
The newest development is that Guillen said, "I'm coming back if they pay me." I thought that meant that he's coming back for 2012 as long as he's not fired (since the Sox will be paying him), but based on additional context in Doug Padilla's blog entry, apparently "pay me" means "give me an extension." It's hard enough to follow what Guillen means from one day to the next -- now it's getting difficult to parse individual statements at this point.
So until actual news breaks, I think I know all I can know at this point. I don't think Guillen is trying to get fired, but he's willing to sacrifice his job in order to achieve one or both of his higher priorities. He's obsessed with how much he is (and isn't) making, and based on what Joe Cowley said on The Score a couple of weeks ago, he would greatly prefer it if Kenny Williams weren't around. The actual task at hand -- managing the White Sox -- trails as a distant third.
Getting back to the lede, it's worth noting that Guillen's teams have failed to play October baseball for three straight seasons, because that's the same sin that cost Jerry Manuel his job earlier this century.
They just happen to have diametrical personalities. Manuel accepted his fate rather quietly, whereas Guillen is raging against the dying of the light -- although he's also the one peeing on the flame.
But their circumstances were more alike than they are different, which is even worse news for a guy trying to make his case.
Compare and contrast!
| Ozzie Guillen | Jerry Manuel | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Key similarities:
*Both managers' teams had an inability to fatten up on the teams below them. With Guillen, it's the Royals and Twins. In 2003, the White Sox went an unimpressive 11-8 against the 119-loss Tigers, while the Twins went 15-4 against Detroit. Fittingly, the Twins won the division by four games.
*The AL Central has been a two-team division for most of Williams' reign.
*Manuel's offenses were regarded as feast-or-famine, while Guillen's recent teams would be better described as "anemic." But both were criticized for being terrible at situational hitting and executing the fundamentals, regardless fo the home run count.
*Both managers' reputations suffered heavy damage when their teams were swept by their chief rivals in September.
Key differences:
*Manuel sealed his fate when he took his foot off the Yankees' throats and started Neal Cotts instead of Mark Buehrle in a series finale in the Bronx. This would have never happened under Guillen's watch, since his veterans manage themselves.
*Manuel willingly adopted an adversarial relationship with Frank Thomas, with the belief that little slights and barbs help keep Thomas motivated. Guillen, on the other hand, hasn't applied any meaningful public pressure to his struggling veterans.
In Guillen's favor:
*That World Series ring.
*This is the second time the Sox have fallen into this malaise under Kenny Williams' watch, which might be more indicative of the organization's inability to develop a real culture. Instead, they've developed into a Trapper Keeper of other team's parts.
*Along the same lines, the vacuum that engulfed Adam Dunn and Alex Rios is really hard to work around.
*He's a superior manager when it comes to handling pitchers, which provides a real reason to keep him around. When Manuel was at the end of his term, his defining trait (an even-keeled approach) had run its course.
*There's no evidence that he has lost the clubhouse, although probably because the Paul Konerko-oriented clubhouse is a self-sufficient entity.
Working against Guillen:
*While Manuel was a victim of Fifth Starter Hell, Guillen has benefited from a full-service rotation for most of his managerial career -- especially over the last two years. Hell, when he lost Jake Peavy for the season in July of 2010, Williams went out and got him another reliable veteran in Edwin Jackson.
*His mouth.

Last year, Guillen proved that looking out for Numero Uno does pay off. Had he not squawked for an extension last year, he wouldn't have had his 2012 option guaranteed. Whereas Manuel quietly resigned himself to the future in the weeks leading up to his dismissal, Guillen was able to turn the tables on a dire set of circumstances and get himself another couple million guaranteed. It wasn't graceful, and it cost him some credibility, but bully for him.
This year, he's proving that you can overdo it. Had he simply said little while playing Kenny Williams' failures, chances are that Williams would be the one underneath the heat lamp. Instead, he pressed his luck and tested the goodwill of everybody by going back to the extension well, when he had done even less to earn one than the year before.
It reminds me of a Jay Leno Joke I made on Twitter last week:
Ozzie Guillen wants a contract extension while falling well short of fulfilling goals. Forget managing - run for Congress!
#GolfSwing
Sadly, I wasn't that far off:
"So I want an extension?" Guillen said. "So what? Everybody does. It's not just me. Everybody wants to know what's going on. That's a normal thing in life. That's why the president wants to run again for president. He wants more years. Obama wants an extension, too."
That's true, except Obama has to campaign for an extension because presidential terms are set in stone. Guillen is demanding a referendum on his performance before it's necessary. If Obama has a red-phone direct line to 35th and Shields, I wonder if he would tell Guillen to hold off putting his fate before the public until his respective economy improves. And then I wonder if Guillen would respond with a four-letter word.
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I mentioned this to a couple folks yesterday at the cine-meth:
The subject of OG staying or going came up at the bar Saturday. These were casual fans talking, but Sox fans nonetheless. I said I hoped he’d go, and they were shocked. Which shocked me. Apparently the bunts, CS, and lineup construction don’t indicate poor managing, as much as it does to us. To them he’s fine, entertaining, and gave us the WS.
The good news (I suppose) is that the shit-stirring ala Cowley and the kid don’t reach them either.
There were several scenes in Moneyball that reminded me of Ozzie, but this one especially:
Art Howe admitted to an irate Beane that we was filling out the lineup card as a resume to get hired elsewhere the following year (since Beane wouldn’t extend him mid-season). Basically, putting the blame on the GM for roster construction while he played it by the book as most people would understand.
I want him gone or rowing in the same direction as Kenny. I suspect that can’t happen, the rowing, so hasta la bye-bye.
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
by Chiburb on Sep 26, 2011 6:57 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Glad to see someone else though my Jerry Manuel comment wasn't off.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I vote for Ozzie to go
The GM’s job is to assemble a competitive team. Kenny did that. The manager’s job is set the lineup and spark the players. Ozzie sucks at this. But given the circumstances, they should both go. Keeping Kenny could mean losing Rick Hahn. If you promote Rick Hahn then he should be able to name his own manager.
Vis a vis Hahn
What indications do we have that Hahn would be better than Kenny or that losing him would be such a big deal? I know he seems to grasp the value of more sophisticated stats, and been pretty accessible to online media, but hasn’t he been in the front office for all of the moves that haven’t paid off (Rios, Peavy, Hudson, Dunn, FNS) and the depletion of the farm system? What was his role in those? I don’t know if anyone has the answer, but it gives me pause about being so eager to have him take over.
Actual job rates last on his scale.
There’s the door.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 26, 2011 7:34 AM CDT reply actions
You forgot to mention how relevant we are with Ozzie! That's the only criteria this decision should be based on.
/Cowley’d
cowley is an idiot.
take a look at the stands the last few years. its a downward trend for sure. i know people who are canceling their tickets. next year we will be at pre-ozzie attendance figures no matter who the manager is.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Once again this was my metaphor posted in a thread on 4/29/2011
He is the guest that won’t leave. The first week was fun and he cooked dinner, fixed things around the house, helped with the kids…he entertained you…but the longer he stayed and the more things he did for the household, he started thinking he owned the place and after a month you couldn’t even imagine him not being around even though you wanted your old life back. His family moved in, his friends were over all the time, there were parties and arguments every night. His kids became brothers and sisters to your kids. He weaved himself into every fabric of your life and brainwashed you to forget there was any other way. You can’t bring yourself to tell him to hit the road because you know the shitstorm that will accompany that request…"After all I’ve done to make your life easier, to enrich you and your family’s life, this is how you treat me?" The kicking and screaming and name calling as you put his shit on the lawn. You still feel guilty long after he is gone but sooner or later that chapter of your life seems embedded far in the past and you realize that you can enjoy life again and wondered why you ever let that shadow fall over your house.
Nice self-congratulation there, Rhoobie.
I know when I quote myself I feel better. :)
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
It looks like the end of this is playing out right now, we are at the kicking and screaming part
his shit is about to be put out on the lawn and once he is gone everyone is going to talk about the devil we don’t know but then next year when we aren’t sacrifice bunting in the second inning everyone will breathe a sigh of relief.
Most everyone on this site, at least.
See Chiburb’s comment above. The fan on the street seems to identify with Ozzie sticking it to “the Man” and being colorful. Plus, the WS ring thing cuts a lot of ice.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
I've gotten into FB and 'real life' arguments in the past month about this
the ‘layfan’ seems to think if KW hadn’t gotten Dunn we would have been fine…one guy went so far as to say if we had gotten a guy who hit for .300 avg and kept Putz we would have won the division. I tell them .300 hitters don’t grow on trees but then they reference Crawford and I tell them he is hitting .240 or something and was too expensive. Then they say Dunn was expensive too, strikeouts too much and Crawford still hit 80 points higher than Dunn. The whole thing is ridiculous. They also seem to think bunting is a great idea.
One guy told me i sound just like a Cubs fan and am ignorant to baseball
he said to me, “If you could see the game, the way I see the game you would enjoy baseball much more.” They consider themselves enlightened. Reinsdorf has a problem that if he fires Ozzie these fans will be beside themselves.
If they think that bunting is an unqualified 'great idea,' then they can't be saved anyway and you're wasting your time.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 26, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Some guy told me Teahen was going to hit 30 home runs last year
and that Thome was too old to hold up.
by notoneyguillen on Sep 26, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
if picking up .300 hitters is so easy
let’s get about 10.
But then we have to disrespect one!
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Talking baseball to some folks is like talking politics to some others.
In the end I just want to bang my head into a cinder block wall until I get knocked out.
"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd
by South Side Expat on Sep 26, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Especially in a public forum like FB where everyone is against you
kind of like reverse when people come here. The Putz guy said Santos was the worst close in the AL and said he was the reason the Diamondbacks were going to the playoffs.
"unfriend"
"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd
by South Side Expat on Sep 26, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
This happened on one of my friends posts asking whether Guillen should be fired
the arguer is not my friend.
nice jim...
my thoughts on ozzie are well known and i am looking for a happy ending to this season when he is shown the door. in 2003 it was also time for manuel to exit because he was given a good team that should have won and he didn’t win. as far as which manager i think did a better job in game? i was pretty in sync with manuel’s moves when i would “manage” the game from my couch. he didn’t have the pitching ozzie did. and he had nutsy nardi as his pitching coach which didn’t help matters.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
"I am looking for a happy ending."
Seriously, KenWo, with how you berate your wife on FB I can understand her reticence to give you any satisfaction.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
lol hey hey i'm about to celebrate my 7th wedding anniversary in about 6 months.
thats like double your longest. you should try it sometime. lol ;)
although when i got married it was right before 05 and they won the series. maybe its time for a divorce and marriage number 2.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
My longest is 11 years, and it's the most recent.
But point taken. I can’t say shit about how to talk with women for the long term.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
firing during the WS
is frowned upon by MLB hq. Is that an official policy or an “unwritten rule?” Does it apply to the playoffs? (They don’t want such things from “losing” teams taking attention away from the big dollar playoffs.
If so, it sure puts pressure on teams to act promptly with firings when the season ends. And if you wait to fire somebody until after the world series, it leaves your organization listless, and that tells everybody something too.
Opposing GM's will throw inside to Kenny much more next year because he violated a rule and know he won't retaliate.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 26, 2011 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
which rule?
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
"unwritten rule''
Funny fial.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 26, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
and which unwritten rule was that?
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
Boy, epic fial.
Ruffster wondered if firing a GM during the WS was a violation of one of baseball’s ‘unwritten rules.’ Me being me, I made a non-funny. We move on.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 26, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And then I wonder if Guillen would respond with a four-letter word.
“Bunt”?
by Pumpkin McPastry on Sep 26, 2011 9:27 AM CDT reply actions
This could be used to hold WSox fans hostage for a very long time
*That World Series ring.
His line-up management since the all-star break shows he’s either delusional or arrogant beyond measure.
We can return to the World Series much sooner if OG’s been shown the door.
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
I am getting tired of Ozzie too, but
If he goes and KW stays, seems like a net loss for the franchise. KW put us in a hole this year (and for the future)—Ozzie just dug it deeper.
this is a pretty good point.
and no matter who is coaching them up next year we are stuck with a retread of this 2011 team.
but manager TBD doesn't have to put Rios batting fourth
and the Knights will be given a fair chance to contribute
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
I talked to multiple people in the know at U.S. Cellular Field over the weekend and not one thinks Ozzie is coming back as White Sox manager in 2012.
If Reinsdorf goes ahead and makes the change, Buddy Bell is at the top of my replacement list.
I do not envy the man that replaces Ozzie as Sox manager, but Bell would be best suited to make a smooth transition.
So, the times where Bell has said, "I don't want to manage again" means nothing, then?
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 26, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Sandberg.
I would love to
1. Stick it to Cubs fans that we have a competent front office who can hire up and coming managers
2. Have an up and coming manager who can get people to check their egos at the door with his HOF credentials.
3. Have a manager who knows what the media pressure, fan pressure, etc. of Chicago is like.
3 things in life I care about
Sox, Colts, and Hawks.
Lifetime banners: '05, '07, '10
no.
1. oh no.
2. dear god no.
3. no no.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
by BuehrleMan on Sep 26, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Having HoF credentials hasn't stopped players from disrespecting managers before.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Because the problem with the 2010/2011 White Sox were huge egos.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 26, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Please consult Deadspin.com for a well-written piece on the "media pressure" of (whatever market you live in that you think is tougher than other markets).
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 26, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
for those (few) of you who may have tuned into tonight's game to see jose bautista
don’t bother. he’s injured and won’t play.
i was going to tune in to see bautista
get drilled for that nonsense he pulled last time he faced the sox. oh well, maybe tomorrow.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
lol. 6 months later and you are still dead wrong on that.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
you're insane.
pound sand.
:)
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
(and it's only four months)
:p
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Danks should yell at AJ for doing the same thing all the time.
Either that, or Bautista and AJ can stand 60 feet apart and just throw baseballs at each other until one relents.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Sep 26, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
i have admitted aj is bad about it
but i don’t recall him doing it when the sox were blowing out the opposing team. if i saw him do that i would feel the same as i do about bautista. (and still, to me, bautista added extra flair by not only yelling and spiking his bat but by jumping up in the air.)
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I've been losing alot of sleep fretting about whether or not Pierre would get to play his last three games with the White Sox against Toronto this week.
The only thing that would have disappointed me more was if Vizquel doesn’t get to say goodbye to White Sox fans on Wednesday.
beat me to it
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Sep 26, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
how dare you not include dunn.
though i’d prefer to see him do that thing where a player plays one inning of the game at every position. that would be great.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I think he'll make a great MF'er.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
by winningugly on Sep 26, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Vizquel will have all of next season to say goodbye to Sox fans
it would be disrespectful not to bring him back
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Any idea how much range Flowers will have at first?
I’m sort of expecting at least a two step improvement on Konerko’s step’n’flop range.
by mechanical turk on Sep 26, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
AJ is counting on enough diving range to dislocate his shoulder.
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
by Jim Margalus on Sep 26, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not understanding this Flowers thing:
Isn’t there an increased injury risk by playing out of position? Is Toby Hall that far in the past that they’ve (Ozzie) forgotten?
Why not Dunn at 1B and Flowers at DH?
Did I mention I want him gone?
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?
Toby Hall is gone
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
by greenlight on Sep 26, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

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