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Bring Out Yer Dead

"Ozzie you're my manager and I love you.  But don't ever take sides with Joe Cowley against the White Sox again.  Ever."

The 2011 Sox are pining for the fjords.  They were all "I think I'll go for a walk" but then the Tigers were all "you'll be stone dead in a moment," clubbed them in the head and threw them on the cart with the rest of the bodies.  It was a real joy to watch all the way around.*

And the best part is that they're going to do it all over again in 2012.  The Sox have $89M already committed in contracts to players for next season, not including Danks, Quentin and Buehrle.  Bring back all three and they'll be paying about $120M to be a slightly above average team.  I doubt that's tenable considering the likelihood that Jerry Reinsdorf lost money on this season.  Or maybe Jake Peavy's insurance money got a lot of it back?  There's a lot we don't know, but the weight of the evidence suggests we should expect some attempts at cost saving.

Let's start with the super obvious: Frasor's a luxury on a team that's already got 4 very good end-of-game options.  Oh  and Tony Pena blows.  So they're gone.  From there the consensus seems to be that Quentin is gone.  It makes sense.  Viciedo, Lillibridge and de Aza will all make significantly less money and replace some of his value, possibly all depending on Q's health and whether or not you believe in the Bridge.  Don't expect too much in return though.  It'll probably be some young former prospect who's since disappointed.  Given the Sox' track record, let's hope it's a pitcher rather than a position player.

Ditching Quentin and keeping Buehrle and Danks cuts about $7M from the ~$120M starting point.  For a team expected to win something like 79-84 games--it's hard to nail down exactly at this point--I would guess they'd still be in the red and not breaking even.  If that's actually the case, where would the cuts come from?

Star-divide

Two are out of the question: Dunn and Rios.  They'll cost $26.5M next season and $28M for the two following.  That'll buy you about 5 wins in each of those seasons on the free agent market.  So the only way a team would want them is if they came with a 5 win player or two making nothing.**  Obviously the Sox aren't obligated to send both to the same team.  I think Chris Sale would be enough to get rid of one or the other.  We might even get some money in that deal.  But the whole problem with this team is it's had to pay market price for too many of their players.  Getting rid of the few cheap guys we have just perpetuates the problem and kicks the can down the road.

Well then, who's left to ditch?  AJ has 10-and-5 rights, so he's not going anywhere unless he says so.  Plus he's only making $6M next year and is coming off one of his best seasons with the bat.  Among the position players, there really aren't any obvious targets to deal.  They're either old and getting paid or young and underperforming.

Tyler Flowers is a possibility if he convinced an MLB club that he's a starting catcher with his performance this season.  I think (and Kenny presumably does too) that he's backup material.  But the idea here is to emphasize the most efficient route to cost cutting.  A challenge trade could pay some dividends, but more likely than not you're running in place and you have to buy a backup catcher.  Brent Morel I suppose could be in a similar position, but without the "sell high" part.  Opening up holes on the major league roster in order to close others isn't likely to be a winning proposition.

The best move is probably to let Buehrle walk and have Sale replace him in the rotation.  That'd put the Sox under $100M with a good chance to replace Buehrle's production from 2010.  Insert Addison Reed and there's a pretty decent chance that Sale+Reed = Sale+Buehrle+$14M.  The problem there of course is that Mark Buehrle is the best White Sox since Frank Thomas,  has an outside chance at the Hall of Fame and is more popular in Chicago than obesity in America's heartland.

And seriously, how good would you feel about losing Mark Buehrle because Kenny Williams, Ozzie Guillen, Adam Dunn and Alex Rios shit the bed?

Some other relatively expensive pitcher then?  Peavy's making $17M next season and not going anywhere until the Sox prove they can keep him healthy; the earliest they can trade him is midseason.  It would also help if his bad luck on the mound ran out.  It's not totally out of the quetion, but it's hard to pull off.  He'll earn 10-and-5 rights*** in 2012 and he's already got a partial no-trade clause.  Not to mention unless a non-Sox team was running away with the division they'd have media-types going nuts about white flags in the middle of a pennant race and all that.  I'm not saying it's impossible; it's actually fairly likely as long as the Sox aren't great and Peavy doesn't implode.

Who's left?  Gavin, Danks, Crain and Thornton.  Of them Gavin has the best combination of contract and replaceability.  Danks could be gone after 2012.  In the very least he'll be paid free agent prices, which means you won't get that much for him.  Gavin's team option in 2013 is very team-friendly and he could actually return a legitimate prospect or two.  Crain and Thornton would just be salary dumps, though one or the other could be ably replaced by Addison Reed.

If the package for Gavin could include an Addison Reed-esque arm, they could dump Crain too.  That'd put the Sox at about $105M and keeps the Sox in that 79-84 win range according to the eyeball test.  Given the crapitude of the division and the fact that Alex Rios and Adam Dunn used to be legitimate major league talent, that could still be enough for a rebound a la 2008.  But if they're asked to cut payroll further, major holes will open up and the .500ish team will drop significantly below.  

In actuality I'd be surprised if they have to go much further and I'd expect JR will authorize final spending some number above $105M.  But I'd be very much surprised if it was much more than $120M at the end of the day.  Assuming the Sox actually get some value from their major FA signing in 2012, that puts them in the 82-87 win range and we're more or less back where we started:  All In and not quite good enough.

I have to say I hoped I could come up with some moves that were a little more imaginative than those that'd been raised in the community already.  But there's just no room for it.  Kenny Williams and Jerry Reinsdorf have backed themselves into a corner thanks to their relative lack of success in the draft, their various problems and setbacks in Latin America and, more specifically, trading Dan Hudson for no good reason.  Without a glut of young, cheap players or much deeper pockets, the Sox simply won't be able to field teams that consistently win 90+ games.  And if they can't do that, they won't be making the playoffs with much regularity without serious competence issues throughout the rest of the division.  It's nice to stay in contention through August, but it would be even nicer to come out on top more than one time in three, right?

 

*Or so I hear.  I had a bad feeling about the whole thing and watched Michigan football instead.  Sunday too.  I've already seen the game 3 times all the way through.  Thanks DVR!

**So Kenny could trade them both to somebody along with a 3 year loan of Don Cooper and Herm Schneider and be even.

***That's what I get for reading Cot's uncritically.  Thanks U-G

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for Quentin,
Don’t expect too much in return though. It’ll probably be some young former prospect who’s since disappointed.

Ooh, maybe THE Chris Carter!

I shant be misled a second time

by Nordhagen on Sep 6, 2011 12:46 PM CDT reply actions  

I'd prefer Sean.

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 6, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Shawn.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

wp

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

owned.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mid-season form.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Sep 6, 2011 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

With Buehrle, given his personality and comments in the past about money,

what is the likelihood he takes a (well) below market deal to stay? >25%?

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 6, 2011 12:48 PM CDT reply actions  

I'd say he probably would take a below market deal to stay

However that still would be expensive in the grand scheme of things for the Sox.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Sep 6, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

yep

this whole thing really sucks. we’re going to lose someone who should have been part of the next White Sox playoff team.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't you have to wait and see if Dunn's suckitude is permanent?

Lose JP, move Q to LF, Viciedo to right, and keep Dunn at DH at least against righties?
And is Beckham a lost cause? Is Morel at his ceiling?

I guess what I’m saying is that a virtually unchanged team (Viciedo for JP) COULD be good enough to compete at about the same (or fewer (sic)) $$.

Just as “if they had” this year, the $$ ain’t too bad.

Or am I misreading your post.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

colin assumes they have to cut salary and, thus, some important pieces (probably Q and one of floyd/danks) will have to go.

i think the salary cut will be even deeper than colin suggests. i think they’re going to aim to rollback to 2009-2010 level.

by larry on Sep 6, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

ditching Gavin, Crain and Q pretty much gets you there, no?

and if they have to go farther than that, it kinda doesn’t matter what they do.

do you have any idea what kind of bath JR took on this season?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jerry might be the most visible owner, but he's not the only owner.

The other guys aren’t exactly on their deathbeds.

To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 6, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Neither is Jerry.

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Sep 6, 2011 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Seriously... the guy is 75.

You’d think he’s 90 the way Craig is talking about him. Unless he has any apparent health problems, I’d think he’s got a fair amount of time left considering the health care he can afford.

by Grinder in Training on Sep 6, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

One the basis od no information, I agree

Since not knowing anything hasn’t stopped people posting on the tubes before, I’ll throw in that the attendance was so abysmal compared to payroll this season that I think larry is right and the cuts will be deep. I think you can expect at least 2 of Floyd, Danks, and Buehrle to be gone if not all three. And you can expect at least two of Humber, Sale, and Stewart to be in the rotation (if not all three). Q and Thornton are certainly gone and probably Crain too.

The wild card might be in Kenny is willing to trade players like Viciedo, Flowers, Santos and/or Alexei in order to dump a salary…but I don’t know if the Sox have enough cheap talent+cash to send along to get anyone to take a chance on one of the big suck three.

by hitlesswonder on Sep 6, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

One the basis od no information, I agree

Since not knowing anything hasn’t stopped people posting on the tubes before, I’ll throw in that the attendance was so abysmal compared to payroll this season that I think larry is right and the cuts will be deep. I think you can expect at least 2 of Floyd, Danks, and Buehrle to be gone if not all three. And you can expect at least two of Humber, Sale, and Stewart to be in the rotation (if not all three). Q and Thornton are certainly gone and probably Crain too.

The wild card might be in Kenny is willing to trade players like Viciedo, Flowers, Santos and/or Alexei in order to dump a salary…but I don’t know if the Sox have enough cheap talent+cash to send along to get anyone to take a chance on one of the big suck three.

by hitlesswonder on Sep 6, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

If only I could delete.....

Apparently I decided to post in a style that makes it look like I’ve been drinking heavily at 2 in afternoon.

by hitlesswonder on Sep 6, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

That’s a pretty big leap. Stewart is not in the rotation next year and prob just 1 of the three is gone.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Sep 6, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah...I'm already thinking I'm wrong about some of that

Thornton’s contract is worse than I remember…he’ll stay barring being dumped in a package.

As for the SPs, I think just think that’s where the Sox look like they can make a big cut because they have (probably illusory) pitching depth and Floyd and Danks are almost the only big money contracts they can move.

We’ll have to see…long time to wait though. Maybe I should start drinking in the afternoons….

by hitlesswonder on Sep 6, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

beat me too it

They are not going to completely gut the starting pitching, especially when it has been one of the more consistently good things from this season. If I had to guess I would say its Mark.

by 815Sox on Sep 6, 2011 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

unless they were a lot better hedged than they made it sound

they’re gonna have to make cuts.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

do you see how many empty seats there are every single night?

even against the yankees and red sox. hell we couldn’t sell out the cubs games… I’m with larry- i think there is going to be a drastic salary cut.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Sep 6, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe they should've cut some prices in these times like some other teams did.

And maybe they shouldn’t have so many “premium” games against non-attractions.
And for the record, is 2269/game that obvious to the naked eye?

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Though I admit it'll get worse with no meangingful games in Sep.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

why does cutting prices necessarily increase revenue?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

brings more people in

to get the money into parking and concessions.
then there’s the possibility of making the same amount because of higher attendance as you would with higher pricing/lower attendance.

by craigws on Sep 6, 2011 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

as PE suggests

it depends on the shape of the demand curve.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Specifically

Everyone was shocked by the Cubs/Yankees series not selling out. But I’m inclined to trust the financial people on this one; selling out would have netted less revenue.

Management has degrees from Clown College this year, but unless Kenny/OG are running the financial side, I’m inclined to trust the ticket pricing. Pricey for the product, certainly. But an average of 24,000 people don’t think so.

LeBron James: Which of His Blessings would you deny?

by ProfessorEmmer on Sep 6, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

mmm

i think this depends on exactly how dynamic their pricing really is. i’m not familiar enough to know, but for anyone who pays attention to such things: did ticket prices crash over the course of the season or hold steady? i know they’re dirt cheap on stubhub, but i’m not sure how that works exactly either. i thought i heard that some teams sell a lot of their tickets directly to such agencies?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

the last few seasons i stayed away from an official plan

because they run so many promotions throughout the year and I know theres a good chance at getting tickets cheaper.
i would have walked up to the gate for the yankees series if it wasnt $50 to get in the joint.

they really need to lower tickets, it will get more people out.
and once you are there, most folks i know are going to drink regardless of the beer prices.

by e-gus on Sep 6, 2011 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

but so that means they're responding to changes in

demand and are very dynamic in pricing. they have their projections and if they start to slip they respond accordingly.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

They shouldnt have been shocked. As I recall...

The Yankees were in for a MON-WED series at premium pricing. And the Cubs were in mid-week, right? (things get hazy in the September of my years)

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes

Yankees was a 4 game series Mon – Thur
Cubs a 3 game Mon – Wed series

by 815Sox on Sep 6, 2011 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thx

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right

Depending on the economic model/formula they use, it may bring in more revenue not to sell out.

We learned this in ECON 302. Depending on your demand formula (which I imagine incorporates wins, but the scholarly literature in sports attendance suggests money spent, star power, and fan favorites as well), selling out may cause you to make less money because you had to set your prices lower.

You have a fixed number of seats. If you had only one seat, you could sell that for a million dollars. But people know the number of seats you have (you can’t sell the first ticket for that and the last ticket for $1). So, roughly speaking, you have to put the tickets at all around the same price (speaking in terms of chronological selling of tickets, not location). Thus, it’s possible that if you set prices for a sell-out, you are underestimating demand (some people would have paid more for tickets but are unable to because supply is fixed.

So in theory, since the Red Sox sell out every game, they probably have some room to bump the ticket prices up.

LeBron James: Which of His Blessings would you deny?

by ProfessorEmmer on Sep 6, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wasn't suggesting pricing to sell out. But a policy of Mon-Thur $10 seats in the 500 level,

At least in April, May, and Sep.would at least recognize these economic times for some of the base. Create good will too?

I though raising prices this year was stupid.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

i don't have an issue with them running their algorithm

and churning out prices. i mean at this point Jerry’s got a ton of data about who comes and when. i doubt they lose a lot of money on this front.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

The optimized pricing argument is a tough one.

We’re not privy to their ticket revenue spectrum.
Were it marginally smaller revenue, I’m sure they’d opt for sellouts.
So the sweetspot must be where it is.
And the pricing for sellouts must be way less revenue.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Sep 6, 2011 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

yep, this.

i swear i remember Hahn mentioning something about having a hand in optimizing this stuff.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd love to see the data. For some reason I think it could be tweaked.

Though I may just be foolishly optimistic that we could draw better.
Truth be told, I’m forecasting some dark days for Sox attendance in the future.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Sep 6, 2011 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

i know it's not everything

but b-r has yearly attendance data going back a long way. i’ve been thinking forever about running a wins vs. attendance excel regression dealie. it’s interesting that they did so bad despite a good year last year. the ‘05 bump didn’t hit until the year following. and that team was great right out of the gate, so i doubt it picked up too much over the course of the year.

here’s the ‘05 team page. the attendance data’s at the top with the record and such:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2005.shtml

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've looked at that before, but we'd need so much more to come to any conclusions.

I want sales data by section and price. And concession figures with details.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Sep 6, 2011 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

for sure

no way to do dynamic pricing with those two inputs. but i’d be interested to see how white sox fans respond to wins compared to other fanbases.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

the problem is they don't actually do dynamic pricing.

when you say you won’t let prices go below what season ticket holders pay because you don’t want to piss them off, you’re per se not optimizing price.

“We don’t want a situation where someone with a $40 season ticket is sitting next to someone who paid $25,” Boyer said.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5618359

by larry on Sep 7, 2011 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, they're doing it unintentionally anyway.

The policeman who jumps from a bridge to a plane is Detective John McClane, a.k.a. Bruce Willis. He’s just the star of the whole movie series and stuff, no big deal or anything. -Cruiser

by Uribe Down on Sep 7, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

yeah they have a "steal of the week" thing going on now

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Sep 7, 2011 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with you 500 percent on that. the prices are ridiculous. though the last few weeks they have been running a lot of specials.

so maybe they’ve seen the error in their ways. probably not though.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Sep 6, 2011 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

The cost to take a family of four to a Cubs game, using the Fan Cost Index formula, is $305.60, and the White Sox is $258.68, the third- and fourth-highest totals in baseball.

The average Fan Cost Index number across baseball is $197.35, up 2 percent from last season.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wasn't attendance down everywhere in the league?

Not selling out the Cubs games was a bit of a surprise, but the stadium was still pretty full (or at least looked like it was) at the game I attended. Not saying that the Sox didn’t lose money this year, because I am sure they did. If the team was good they would have filled more seats that is for sure, but people just are not spending money to go to games all over the US.

by 815Sox on Sep 6, 2011 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think they had the 7th worst attendance in MLB this year. Even outdrawn by Houston.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well that is not a surprise, considering how they were losing

And how fickle Sox fans are. I am just saying that it is a little more complex of a problem than just ticket prices and the play of the team.

Baseball teams are more and more dependent on TV nowadays. I think they should stop showing games on WCIU. That would be awesome

by 815Sox on Sep 6, 2011 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh I agree re complexity. You had a better chance of seeing a home loss than win.

For the first time I can recall, and for example. The home product sucked this year.
But prices certainly played a role. I think their 10% attendance defecit might have been mitigated with more creative monetary policy.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

they're 7th in the AL per B-R

which is where they were in ’05. they bumped up to 3rd in ’06 and have been on a decline since.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

They're 3rd worst drop in AL. Also per B-R.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

3rd worst drop?

difference between this and last year?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

hmm weird

though they were absolutely wretched in april after making a big PR pitch. if the theory is they paid a bunch to get everyone to actually check the standings, then that backfired substantially.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

OK, here's a $$ # for you, back of the envelope style:

They’re down 2269 per game from last year. Say that’s at an average price of $50/ticket. For 81 games that comes to a little over $9M for the season.
(And I know that doesn’t include parking, concessions, etc.)

Now what do they have to cut and still remain competitive?

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

oy

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Sep 6, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

sigh

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah dont forget about the "leap of faith"

Crashed and burned.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Sep 6, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ah. It's only $40 average ticket. So $7.3M, not $9M.

But I guess the point doesn’t change.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

remember that deadspin post with team financial reports?

http://deadspin.com/5615096/mlb-confidential-the-financial-documents-baseball-doesnt-want-you-to-see-part-1

i figure the angels are the most relevant one to pick through.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thx.

Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

by Chiburb on Sep 6, 2011 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

how so?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

as you and mm said

we’re not privy to their numbers, but i think raising prices the last two years messes with the psyche of your average fan. I think reasonable ticket prices(something along the lines of what chiburb suggested) would dramatically increase attendance and therefore beer sales, foam fingers, food, etc.

by e-gus on Sep 6, 2011 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

asses in the seats grows future fans as well.

something overlooked by the maximum profit algorithm.

by e-gus on Sep 6, 2011 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

why should it be?

they’ve got data going back 20 years now at least. and i’m guessing the mlb front office gives input on that kind of thing too. i think there’s plenty of reason to guess that if we think of something, it’s probably something they’ve already thought of and researched. this is their bread and butter and it’s not run by baseball guys.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your last sentence is the important one. A relative idiot like OG or KW isn't making those decisions.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Sep 6, 2011 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't that require the assumption

That more people would show up because the ticket prices were cheaper. Don’t think you can be so sure. They very well could make more money selling a more expensive ticket to fewer fans.

by 815Sox on Sep 6, 2011 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

TV $

I’ll quit lurking and ask a question… Does anyone know how much $ the Sox make off of their tv deals? I think I heard about $500k per game on CSN, which would end up being worth around $80 million if its consistent throughout their channels and provide an idea of a steady baseline from which they have to operate.

by Danks' Picked Nose on Sep 6, 2011 2:15 PM CDT reply actions  

it's $450K per game on comcast.

less for wgn games. and less for wciu games. note that fox/espn games need to be accounted for. obviously they get central revenue from the tv deals; not sure what amount (if any) they get for appearing on those stations.

by larry on Sep 6, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

but $80M is a decent estimate for their take overall then?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

They get less on WGN?

You’d think the bigger channel would pay more.

by Grinder in Training on Sep 6, 2011 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Comcast is much bigger than the Tribune Company.

The policeman who jumps from a bridge to a plane is Detective John McClane, a.k.a. Bruce Willis. He’s just the star of the whole movie series and stuff, no big deal or anything. -Cruiser

by Uribe Down on Sep 6, 2011 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

*Kabletown

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

this must be bordering on inhumane

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Sep 6, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

you mean che is a few years older than he lets on

Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Sep 6, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just Shoot Me.

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Sep 6, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

I always enjoyed that show.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Sep 6, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Its one of those shows that they used to rerun at night, like around 10 or 11

So you end up seeing lots of half episodes if you have a TV in your room.

by 815Sox on Sep 6, 2011 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Remember...

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.

"Alex is our best option right now." - Ozzie Guillen answering the media regarding Alex Rios continually batting clean-up (8/31/11)

by tailgater on Sep 6, 2011 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pardon my French

But why the FUCK is Viceido on the bench????

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Sep 6, 2011 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

this lineup has put me in a very dark place

I thought I had already hit bottom with this team but this is indefensible.

by Rhubarb on Sep 6, 2011 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is Konerko needed for the fall harvest on his land?

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Sep 6, 2011 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Evidently yesterday Ozzie wanted to sit Konerko out of the second game

and Konerko told him no. This according to David Schuster of the Score

by 815Sox on Sep 6, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is bullshit.

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Sep 6, 2011 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh, I get it.

now that they are out of it they can afford to let the pactsters work out of their slump.

GENIUS!

by Trooper on Sep 6, 2011 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

This confused me.

“that’d put the Sox under $100M with a good chance to replace Buehrle’s production from 2010. Insert Addison Reed and there’s a pretty decent chance that Sale+Reed = Sale+Buehrle+$14M.

Don’t you mean Sale+Reed+$14M = Sale + Buehrle?

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Sep 6, 2011 4:20 PM CDT reply actions  

yeah

but obviously i confused myself if i thought that way made more sense so maybe i shoulda just dropped the simple arithmetic.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do a Florida Marlins.

Trade everyone tradeable.

My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.

LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!

by ballyb on Sep 6, 2011 4:30 PM CDT reply actions  

Except the Marlins do that after they win a WS.

"keep a weather eye on the horizon, dearest captain of the douche canoe" - BJ

by Shoeless In SC on Sep 6, 2011 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Marlins do that because they can't/won't sign contracts that will be difficult to move later

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Sep 6, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

After looking at the lineup and spazzing out I've relaxed........

Clearly I’m being punked. No harm no foul.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Sep 6, 2011 4:38 PM CDT reply actions  

that link is hilarious.

"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck

by BuehrleMan on Sep 6, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

which badges?

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

i went to a record amount of games this summer

probably around 12 or so. I’m guilt free! of course at least half were free from friends who couldn’t go but still.

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Sep 6, 2011 5:01 PM CDT reply actions  

I went to a few, not as much as usual

I think I have one more game coming up, will probably go just to get a Tamale with that tropical salsa. Yum

by 815Sox on Sep 6, 2011 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

So this season is your fault.

Asshole.

"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!

by winningugly on Sep 6, 2011 5:24 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

ahem

my attendance record is fantastic. 9-3 or something like that. sorry billyok! I also saw an inordinate amount of Adam Dunn hrs live considering the season hes had.

Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk

by blackoutsox on Sep 6, 2011 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

I went 4-1 this season.

Tampa was the 1.

Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.

by Jim Margalus on Sep 6, 2011 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

5-0. undefeat.

they should pay me to go to games.

by Trooper on Sep 6, 2011 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah i was telling TP that i personally really like the fact that prices have bottomed out

i know it probably means trouble ahead, but i’ve been to double the games i normally go to this year. good times.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Slashed scout seats is the play. That's the only way I'm going to Comiskey again this season.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Sep 6, 2011 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

this.

well i’ll go and sit in the upper deck i don’t care about that… but i am going to go to at least one more game in the scout seats. right now i’m thinking the last series vs. toronto is looking very nice.

Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.

by KenWo4LiFe on Sep 6, 2011 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tickets have been below face value on Stubhub all season. Sometimes way below face value.

I’ve gotten unprecedented (for me) deals on seats near or behind home plate for around $20-30. I’m not sure what, if anything, that would mean for future ticket sales/prices, but I’m sure the sellers this year were extremely, uh, disheartened.

The policeman who jumps from a bridge to a plane is Detective John McClane, a.k.a. Bruce Willis. He’s just the star of the whole movie series and stuff, no big deal or anything. -Cruiser

by Uribe Down on Sep 6, 2011 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Means reupping on season tickets

will be a very hard sell.

My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.

LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!

by ballyb on Sep 6, 2011 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

good call.

at least at that price point anyway.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah that's insane

i don’t get people sometimes.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

right, i laid out how it can be done.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 6, 2011 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

why would you trade dunn at this point though?

might as well wait and see if he still sucks next year before you go losing a prime asset in an attempt to dump donkey.
then, if you do get rid of him now there’s always the possibility he does bounce back at the other team, and you’ve fucked yourself over twice.

by craigws on Sep 6, 2011 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Plus Wells had an uptick before the trade. His good season made it possible.

Dunn and Rios are at all time lows.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Sep 6, 2011 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

jesus christ, this.

i’ve already seen this shit too many times on the site and it’s barely september. vernon wells hit .273/.331/.515 in 2010. he did not have one of the worst seasons ever by a DH and outfielder, respectively.

by larry on Sep 6, 2011 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Two things

1) This is complete conjecture and dreaming, but with the Marlins clearly pining for Ozzie and wanting to shut up Logan Morrison, is there ANY chance that a trade of those two is somehow worked out? I know it makes no sense from their side, but they have made some stupid moves in the past and this makes a lot more sense than the Ozzie-for-Stanton rumors did last offseason. Again, this is really just me praying.

2) I know everyone loves Buehrle (myself included). He has done great things for this team and is clearly still on top of his game. If the financial situation was in order, he should clearly be brought back, but with the with it looking like costs need to be cut, he (along with Q) looks like the easiest pricey piece to move/let go of. Everyone’s all gung-ho on trading Gavin, but with his contract being so team-friendly, that’s not really a comparable salary cut. I’m hearing Q could get a bump up near 10 mil in arbitration, so he could cut some dough, but his salary isn’t even included in the current commitment numbers colin mentioned above. Making all of these trades of Crain, Thornton, Danks, Floyd, Q, etc sounds great in theory, but I feel like they would really be treading water at best by doing all that maneuvering. I think their best chance to cut costs and remain competitive (which should be the ultimate goal) is to let Buehrle walk and move Sale to the rotation. But that’s just my two cents.

by polodude017 on Sep 7, 2011 9:42 AM CDT reply actions  

The Morrison thing is a pipe dream at best.

But if they get fed up with him enough, like the Cards did with Rasmus, I could see him being moved for less (maybe much less) than he should/would fetch in a normal trade.

by polodude017 on Sep 7, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just thinking numbers wise here.

Like Colin said, filling holes by creating other holes doesn’t really solve anything. Filling holes by dealing from a position of strength does. The rotation has options, namely Sale. The most expensive, movable piece in the rotation is Buehrle. Numbers wise, that makes sense.

by polodude017 on Sep 7, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

But I do see what you are saying.

If you piss off the fans by dealing Buehrle, you’re just driving attendance down further. It’s a catch-22 I guess.

by polodude017 on Sep 7, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

they really are stuck treading water

so either their luck turns out to be much better or the trade market proves unpredictable and in the Sox favor. neither of which we can really predict.

and i don’t think Quentin will get anywhere near $10M in arb. that’s not how it works. $7-8M will be that figure unless something in the process has changed that i don’t know about.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 7, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

it'll depend on how other teams value him and what you mean by halfway decent.

but it’s unlikely. on the open market, he’d get about $10-11M. he’ll actually get $7-8. the difference between those figures is the surplus value of Quentin to his contract that’ll be filled in by the return in the trade. and that comes out to about a fifth of what would be needed to land the worst top 100 prospect.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 7, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

disagree.

quentin is a high type B free agent. conceivable he could attain type A, with a slightly greater likelihood if he is traded to the BL. obviously some of this is dependent upon the new CBA, but teams should have clarity on that in the offseason.

by larry on Sep 7, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

ugh

i always forget about compensation.

in that case, Victor Wang’s research seems to indicate that gets you to about half of the surplus value needed to land the worst top 100 prospect. so you’re looking at whatever 7/10 the value of the worst top 100 prospect is.

that’s probably what a B- prospect in Sickels’ book? i’m not familiar enough with his rating system.

So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.

by colintj on Sep 7, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

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