Reading Room: Physical game, mental game
"I don’t believe the game is mental," Guillen said. "When you play and you’re 4-for-4, your mind is in the right [frame] of mind. When you pitch eight shutout innings … The thing about mental in baseball is this game you got to play every day. People say it’s mental. Yeah, mentally to prepare yourself."
I don't know what that means. But if we want to talk about baseball's physical nature, there's Chris Sale describing how he throws his slider to Brett Ballantini, and in great detail. It's a couple days old, but it's such a great use of access that I wanted to give it its time at the top of the page.
And in the corresponding article, Ballantini goes through FanGraphs' pitch data for the best and worst pitches on the Sox's staff.
Christian Marrero Reading Room
Let's go back to the mental aspect, where Gordon Beckham says that chasing bad pitches is what's undermining his season, and not mechanics. That strikes me as an oversimplification, because he's swinging through cup-high fastballs, too, but pitch recognition is probably the bigger bear.
- Tyler Flowers in bloom with work beind plate - ESPN Chicago
- Flowers blossoms as Sox look for more playing time in 2012 - Chicago Tribune
Flowers blooms. Flowers blossoms. Don't mind me, I'm just kinda keeping track of these puns. But also, if you want to read nice things said about Tyler Flowers, there's plenty to work with.
Ballantini takes a crack at what Colin discussed on Tuesday -- what kind of room do the White Sox have to work with?
And here's J.J., looking at Carlos Quentin's situation in particular. I wonder if there's anybody who thinks he has a real chance at staying put.
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I think Ozzie is saying you have to mentally prepare yourself prior to or after the game but
once you step on the field you have to blank everything out and let your muscle memory and talent take over. I think he is speaking to the players who, he believes, think too much during the game.
So long Quentin.....
Things are starting to look better already for 2012. About Guillen’s quote above, I have no idea what he is trying to say…. What is mental is that it seems that Rios is coming around now that our chance to pass the Tigers are below 1% per ESPN
Cloudy
with a chance of meatballs
"Statistics are about as interesting as first base coaches" Jim Bouton
by Grinder Rule #42 on Sep 7, 2011 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Dead cat bounce, baby!!
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 7, 2011 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I like Ballantini going into the advanced metrics
Seems that mainstream (If you can call comcast sports online mainstream) media only usually makes passing reference. I would have liked to have seen him explain where those numbers come from though (obviously from Fangraphs, but a simple explanation on how they are derived might make more casual fans put more credence in the numbers if they don’t already accept Fangraphs as baseball scripture).
by ceverettsdinosaurs on Sep 7, 2011 8:13 AM CDT reply actions
Brett "The Question Guy" is flashing the humor leather
There may not be a fountain of youth on the White Sox, but there’s a trickle,
Unfortunately the trickle was stopped up for too long this season. Management constipation?
White Sox 2011: The season of extraneous body parts.
Sounds like prostate problems.
I know this: ’11WSB has left me prostrate.
by Name's Dalton on Sep 7, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Good Stuff. I thought this was a good place to post BWAR too.
Important for folks to keep in mind a metric closer to actual production value especially as you peruse fangraphs…..
Especially when you see Peavy (who has had terrible luck this year) hovering around 3 fWAR and a value close to 13 million.
BWARs:
Buerhle : 3.7 solid year 4 plus
Humber : 3.3 like the work of Coop. I feel good about next year
Danks : 2.6 nothing seemed to click this year, at least not long term. Please lock him up now.
Crain : 2.4
Jackson: 2.3 A wager hangs in the balance….
Floyd : 2.1 Sigh. I still say trade him.
Sale : 2.1 Im starting to think he’s really going to be a very good starter.
Santos: 1.6 So weird this disappointing team has quite a bit of pitching talent.
Peavy : 1.2 With decent regression and keeping his mouth shut Sox fans may like Peavy next year.
Thornton : -.02 Was worth 2.2 or higher the last 3 years. Yeah he’s not going anywhere.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
big difference b/w bWAR and fWAR for floyd and peavy
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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Sep 7, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
bWAR should probably be ignored for relievers given the sample
though i’m not gonna say that definitively cuz i’m not totally sure about their method for RPs. is there a leverage adjustment?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
yes there is
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
what accounts for the large diff b/w bWAR and fWAR for floyd and peavy?
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Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Sep 7, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
bWAR (Rally's WAR) uses runs allowed to calculate pitcher's WAR, fWAR uses FIP.
The calculation of the FIP metric attempts to put all pitchers on a level playing field by eliminating defense and using only strikeouts, walks, and home runs. Peavy and Floyd are 1 and 2 in our starters’ K/BB rankings. That helps their FIP, which helps their fWAR.
Peavy and Floyd are also 1 and 2 in when ranked by descending ERA. So the higher amount of runs allowed is detrimental to their bWAR. If you want to use pitcher WAR simply to look at one number for indication of how valuable a pitcher was in a given season, bWAR is better. For instance, if you used fWAR to compare Buehrle and Peavy this season, Peavy’s per inning WAR is about 30% higher than Buehrle’s.
the eye test is usually overly results-oriented
most folks don’t do a good job of making predictions before they see the results.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Sep 7, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
would it be worth it just adding the two together and creating an average?
wouldn’t that be more balanced?
answered below!
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
i don't agree with this:
“If you want to use pitcher WAR simply to look at one number for indication of how valuable a pitcher was in a given season, bWAR is better.”
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I think you will be in the minority here Colin.
I just don’t buy the explanation below. There is a real difference between the 2 statements. Ultimately I think Jim said it best. What happened? How likely is it to happen again?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
that's a convenient but wrong dichotomy.
if you’re likely to outperform your present ERA and your defense is all the same players, what does that say about how you likely performed in acquiring that ERA? you don’t suddenly and predictably get better. it is far more likely that you were better and variance in the measurement was obscuring it. RA is a measurement with huge variance. FIP allows us to pick through that.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
In a prism yes.
But this is where I yell “get out of the basement!”
How many times do you need to see Vazquez throw up great k/bb rates with other results before you begin to believe he’s not the fWAR beast it claims? BWar uses defense too. Of course much of this is subjective. Its a convenient crutch to say imagine a defense would perform equally for all pitchers. They won’t. Forget for a moment the percentage difference for overall value and look only at fwar. Peavy 3.0 fWAR. There is something seriously wrong with that when you are assessing “real life value”.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
how many starts do you need to see it?
i want a specific number. 20? 400? how do you know? how different is Humber from Peavy and why? i hate this well-i-just-know bullshit. i want the why. explain yourself. you can’t do it without comparing your observations to the numbers. and the numbers we have come from a jillion different studies from guys that watch just as obsessively as you.
btw, Javy’s ERA and FIP on his career are 4.26 and 3.93. that’s 7 runs a season. bWAR adjusted to fWAR scale has him as a 4.5 WAR pitcher, fWAR a 4.9 for his Sox career. you’re telling me you can tell the difference over a single season? give me a break.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Here is how our starters rank in fWAR value per inning.
1. Peavy
2. Humber
3. Floyd
4. Buehrle
5. Danks
Would you agree with this ranking in terms of their value to the team, based on what you’ve watched from each this season?
Bringing up the Buehrle/Peavy again:
Buehrle has gone 7IP/3ER or better in over 50% of his starts. Peavy has done it 4 times out of 18.
Buehrle has a negative WPA in 33% of his starts. Peavy has a negative WPA in 66% of his starts.
The Sox winning % is .630 in Buehrle starts, .556 in Peavy starts.
These numbers suggest Buehrle has been more consistent and valuable to the team for each inning he’s pitched compared to Peavy. Yet fWAR says the opposite.
by 3E8 on Sep 7, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Buehrle is seriously the guy you're bringing up?
the guy that everyone already knows is poorly described by his peripherals thanks to his epically long career of doing just that? i don’t see how that’s relevant.
the question is, at what point in his career are you going to start paying attention to ERA rather than FIP? how many starts is it going to take you to know? my answer is that at 6 seasons we know for sure which means at 3 seasons we can probably make an educated guess which means at 1 season we really can’t be sure.
so that’s what the data and studies of the data tell me. how do you know?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I thought it was relevant because by looking at more than just DIPS
bWAR did the ‘better’ job of portraying what’s actually happened on the field. That was my statement you took disagreed with.
Buehrle is just one example. Humber/Jackson was the same earlier which we’ve already done. Our most valuable starter by fWAR over the past three seasons? Floyd, by a significant margin. We’re five games under .500 in his starts over that period.
by 3E8 on Sep 7, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
just to point out one thing that is markedly different for MB and peavy.
peavy has faced the toughest opposition (and by a pretty wide margin over the other starters). MB has faced the easiest.
by larry on Sep 7, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
where'd you find that?
and if it’s your brain, i hate you.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
i suppose i should also note there are multiple ways to measure quality of opposition.
but i used BP’s calculation of OPS of opponent, since it was easiest. and, before anyone gets all crazy about OPS, MB wasn’t facing higher OBP teams or something so there isn’t anything immediately terrible about using OPS.
You took me too literal with Javy
It was more to pointing to a couple seasons with him that it came up (like with the White Sox) in a joking matter. But its not bullshit. 3E8 knid of points to it below. Its one of the things I see on a regular basis from “fantasy” play. You tend to begin to look at things consistency and the number of “real” quality starts.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
How much value do you really want to give Edwin Jackson
because he struck 13 with zero walks in 1 game in April. What about if he had 4 sucky ass starts afterwards (just made up that)? Bwar does a better job in that “real” life instance.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
nope choose one
you have to. Now what? What?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
run for office
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Would you really have a problem if
I took out another lawyer?
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
How many have you taken out already?
What’s your quota?
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
i'm not being flippant.
this debate is kind of silly. a year’s worth of data for either has flaws. you guys are basically arguing over whether you like chocolate or vanilla better and cherry-picking examples to support whatever.
just pick one. use that one. don’t cherry-pick for argument when one or the other is better for your position. just be consistent.
i think the problem is more
a lack of articulation on both sides. or mine, anyway. i don’t think anyone here is a serious b/fWAR partisan.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I'm Partisan
I hate that bWAR bollocks – that site looks like a right dogs breakfast.
Calming green of fWAR is easier on the eye.
by hoodlight on Sep 7, 2011 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i think you should look at wins/losses and ERA.
just like 40 years ago.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
We all know Tdogg likes Vanilla.
Oh…
"That might be how you roll at Camp Anawanna, Budnick. But where I come from, we only salute Old Glory." -moroots on May 23rd
by South Side Expat on Sep 7, 2011 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions
i'd vote for larry
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
i'm not being too literal
i’m asking you how you know what you think you know without the data and the studies? how much sooner were you convinced of something compared to when the data became reliable and why?
i’m under the impression your process is basically this: some phenomenon (Javy’s ERA being greater than his FIP, Buehrle’s being less) keeps happening and at some unclear cutoff your unconscious becomes convinced that it’s reasonable to predict that it can continue.
and that’s the same as using past ERA to predict future ERA. which we know doesn’t work as well as using FIP for the vast majority of pitchers. if i can predict future performance better, it’s because i have a better understanding of past performance. and that’s because i’ve cut through the variance of the old measurements with a better one.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
And I really don't see a problem with that Colin.
Of course not ERA but I have very little problem reconciling a player’s given year vs what he’s likely to do moving forward. We are not arguing that. The question is “worth”. Arbitrary points (like a season) actually do exist for me.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
But why do we care about future performance if WAR isn't predictive?
Whales! Squids! Sharks! They're everywhere! Hello, I am Poseidon! Now, when people told me I was crazy that thinly sliced roast beef would be a delicious fast-food option, I knew it was the greatest idea, and you can thank me later for Arby's.
that's my whole point
Maybe I just don’t do a good job articulating it.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
maybe i'm missing the point
but FIP and hence fWAR are more predictive. that’s their value. being predictive means we can infer past performance.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
...sorry if that reads as overly defensive
not trying to be prickly.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
please. its all good
This is all great debate.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Fuys works.
“Fucking guys” combined.
"MY NAME IS YOANIS CESPEDEZ YOU KILLED MY FATHER" WHAT!
by winningugly on Sep 7, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Fucking Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill
They ruined this game
by notoneyguillen on Sep 7, 2011 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
i think my favorite part of JH's casting
is what Paul DePodesta actually looks like.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I saw Jonah Hill talking about this on Jimmy Fallons show
I think thats what it was, anyway he was joking about what it would be like when DePodesta heard they made the movie.
“Oh Brad Pitt is playing Billy? That’s cool! Who is playing me? Jonah Hill? You’re joking right?”
I am in the practice of taking into account
both B-R and Fangraphs WAR calculations and essentially averaging them, given that I respect both sources and as pointed out there can be crazy discrepancies (all year B-R has killed Thornton, with FG seemingly more reasonable). Do you believe that’s a good practice (weighing both equally, is one or the other sharper, or is there a better and more reliable source elsewhere?
by Chet Lemonhead on Sep 7, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Im at the point where I really don't weigh\avg them.
I have just come around to thinking they serve two separate purposes. For pitching I’m inclined to use FWar for more predictive values on what to expect and I lean heavily towards BWar for what actually happened on the field. Jim does a great job explaining this in a previous article (searching). I believe it was Ugod who put me on this path. I know Colin has a few disagreements. Don’t remember where Larry stands.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
larry
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Sep 7, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Ah found it.
Actually buried in Ugod’s preseason discussion of AL Central center fielders. Serves as a response to onlysoxfan too.
link
about 1/3 down.
I don’t think there are that many that produce a constant chasm
But to me, if WAR is a descriptive stat, then I would rather stick with descriptive stats factoring into it. The term "wins" also creates some cognitive dissonance.
Look at these two pitchers:
2005 Jon Garland: 221 IP, 3.50 ERA
2006 Javier Vazquez: 202.2 IP, 4.84 ERA
From those stats, I have a pretty good idea of which one contributed more to "wins." But fWAR doesn’t think so:
2005 Jon Garland: 3.7 WAR
2006 Javier Vazquez: 4.8 WAR
To me, that looks more like what a pitcher might be capable of producing the following season, rather than what he really contributed to his team that year. bWAR seems a lot closer to what actually happened:
2005 Jon Garland: 5 WAR
2006 Javier Vazquez: 2.6 WAR
I think there’s some value in fWAR using FIP, but it’s the second place I’d go to. If I wanted to know what a pitcher gave a team when he took the mound, I’d check bWAR. If I then wanted to know if he’s likely to repeat it next year, I’d check fWAR.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Man, that article wound up being completely wrong.
Rios as the best and Cabrera as the worst? Bollocks.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Yeah well Rios didnt do anybody any favors.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
i plan on taking a look at how my pre-season rankings look after the season.
Dunn and Rios shitting the bed really fucked them over.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Good idea.
look forward to that.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
thanks a lot tdogg!
Jim Thome sponsor(s) this page.
Highly underrated, Mark Kotsay became the best defensive designated hitter in American League history in 2010.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Sep 7, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
long answer because i expect you want to know
tl:dr: fWAR for individual pitcher (especially reliever) seasons. don’t take an average of the two. all stats have something wrong with them.
with the samples in question, fWAR is just way better than bWAR. FIP better describes pitcher performance over the year than runs allowed plus a defense adjustment. until you get to the point where you can say for sure that the difference between a component-projected ERA (FIP, xFIP, SIERA, etc.) and actual ERA is real and not random (that’s like 6 full seasons for a starter, iirc), i don’t see why using bWAR makes sense. if you’re looking at team totals or careers, bWAR makes plenty of sense. but for individual player years, strikeouts, walks and ground balls are what matter most. and for relievers, even walks are high variance by comparison.
the other thing is that bWAR uses a much higher replacement level than fWAR. a team full of replacement level players will win ~27% of their games according to fangraphs. per b-r, it’ll win ~32%. so you can’t just add them together and divide by 2 to get an actual average of the two. it’ll end up weighted toward the fangraphs number by some amount.
i checked out the fangraphs and b-r war boards yesterday and in 2010, you could convert bWAR to fWAR by multiplying by ~1.2. that should be close enough going forward to do what you want to do there.*
as far as a better source goes, the ideal WAR would weight by component given a sample size and use a regression. this amounts to, more or less, a continually updating projection as the data from a season comes in. fangraphs has a version for that of ZiPS, but i’ve heard it’s regression factor overweights new data significantly. i’m not sure if they’ve fixed it, but i think i would have heard about that. until then, i use a combo of xFIP and FIP that i kind of mentally weight one way or the other. i’d use just xFIP, but it turns out that our batted ball data isn’t crazy reliable at picking out fly balls versus line drives, so pitchers who actually do a great job at getting the ball on the ground sometimes get shafted because the mix of LDs and FBs is whack.
oy vey. in sum: most of the stats have something wrong with them depending on the sample, the data, etc. this is because we implement them knowing certain things and as studies come out and make new findings, those things are altered somewhat. rather than constantly creating slightly new metrics that could befuddle audiences, they stick with fairly simple stuff that’s good enough for government work.
in this case, i’m running through everything because a)i expect you want to know and b)the small differences are meaningful here.
*and actually, just looking at the the team war leaderboards in each, it looks like they have replacement level as slightly different every year, which i don’t think is ideal. iirc, you’re supposed to set all replacement levels equal to each other for a given system so you can definitively compare them year to year. i don’t think they change enough to really mess with that comparison. it’s just annoying. all the more so cuz it futzes with a post of mine from BtBS i was consulting for my post yesterday.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Sep 7, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 7 recs
colin rawx
Joe Buck is just White Noise to me. It’s like the game is being called by a CD of whale songs. - mechanical turk
great answers all
The initial thought was to average both given the discrepancies. But right away for my next Value Survey today I will adjust for the weight discrepancy between the two (multiplying FG by .8 or B-R by 1.2). I hadn’t been savvy enough to pick up that fg was more predictive and br was more reportive…eventually I imagine I would have picked up on it, but for now I’m just trying to keep my head above water.
by Chet Lemonhead on Sep 7, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
this isn't really directed at you Brett; i doubt this will change your approach much. but:
i really don’t like the idea that B-R is more reportive.
B-R reports on runs allowed and then normalizes BABIP via a defensive adjustment and corrects for park and league. FG reports on K’s, BB’s, HR’s and then normalizes BABIP via FIP and corrects for park and league.
the difference is in what components you want to use and what your underlying model is. FG is more predictive in small samples because it has settled on components that have significantly less variance over those samples.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
well the ways I am trying to incorporate stats that means something
is ever in flux and I will continue to try to find the most perfect “formula” for any of my given purposes. I’ve already rebuilt a few times this year. Will continue to fine tune. As long as I’m getting closer and not farther away from “truths” it’s a good thing
by Chet Lemonhead on Sep 7, 2011 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
by the way, tom tango just splits the difference between the two. so don't feel bad if that's what you do
I didn't know this
So thanks Solomon. Can we split a baby in half next? :-)
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
in that case he did.
it’s all about how much you already know about the player.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
yes. in that case. and in all cases when he doesn't want to do in depth calculations.
i’m not cherry-picking.
never mind.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
in that case i would say as long as we're talking about a single season
or less, focus on strikeouts, walks and ground balls per batter faced.
and you can break that down further. FG has contact%, which is whiffs/swing. command is more nebulous, but i think the best way to look at that is check out where the catcher wants the pitch and eyeball how close the pitcher gets. breaking down GB further i’m less sure about. fortunately it stabilizes very rapidly.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Concerning Ozzie's quote...
please call the Department of Redundancy Department for clarification.
Sabermetrics hurt my head, just give me the facts.
Great thread, thx y'all !
Trying to score runs with Juan Pierre as your leadoff hitter is like trying to suture a wound in a moving car. You might still be successful -- but why make it so hard on yourself?

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