Scouting stuff: an amateur attempt to figure out pitching, part 2
So now we know about fastballs for the most part, right? No? You've forgotten already? Howsabout another Dave Allen graph:
So right, more run values. Negative is good for the pitcher, positive is bad. Outside of the whole movement/velocity thing, the big takeaway is what happens with and without the platoon advantage. The four-seamer remains a far more viable pitch to opposite handed hitters than does the two-seamer. I'm just eyeballing it, but the difference between having and not having a platoon advantage with a two-seamer is the about the same one we saw in the fastball velocity graph. In case you forgot, it's the difference between an all-star and average.
Given that, it would see we need to figure out some different sorts of pitches to offset the problems of the fastball.
Slider
From a Pitch F/x perspective, the slider is pretty cool. Many of you already know that hitters are able to recognize the slider mid-flight thanks to the light dot that shows up on the darker rest of the ball. The phenomenon is caused by the spin imparted by the pitcher which rotates the baseball like a football. The seams rotate closer to the edge of the ball and the unblemished hide stays in the middle. This kind of spin causes the ball to travel closest of any to the imaginary pitch affected only by gravity Pitch F/x compares all pitches to. The result is just a couple inches of movement vertically and/or horizontally.
While the dot can be a giveaway, the good ones are thrown too hard for the batter to actually make use of the information and change the decision to swing. That is of course unless the hitter has the platoon advantage. Here's what Brad Lidge's slider and fastball look like as a right handed batter:
If you look closely, you'll see Dave has overlaid two small black dots on the red and blue lines respectively. They represent the point in time at which the batter must decide if he will swing. Anything past this point and he won't hit anything anyway. The slider and fastball line up almost perfectly until that moment has past. But what about lefties against Lidge?
Comparatively vast difference if you ask me. And indeed, this is the going theory on why sliders in fact have a very large platoon difference and do absolutely nothing to solve the problem. Once again, the black dots are placed at approximately the point where the batter needs to make his decision to swing. Very clearly, they simply do not get to track the flight of the ball. It's all what it looks like right out of the pitcher's hand. Which means there's an exceptional premium on making everything look the same as long as possible. Hence the paranoia about tipping one's pitches. Anything too different from the fastball has to move so much that that in itself fools the hitter. The other clear difference maker, then, is expectation.
That is to say, count and randomness matters. If a pitcher sequences his pitches too obviously, he will be giving up a huge advantage. If he pitches behind the count or is otherwise forced to throw particular pitches, he's giving up a huge advantage.
Back to the slider specifically. Setting aside velocity, Dave's work has shown that the more horizontal movement away from the batter, the better the slider tends to perform. This may not hold up for sliders without the platoon advantage, but it's something I look for in the numbers in deciding the quality of the pitch.
Honestly though, I don't feel like I can look at the movement of a slider and guess it's quality. I've spent a lot of time looking and I think fastball velocity, disguise, etc. are probably far more critical variables. When it comes to sliders especially, I want to know more than just movement. And what I really want to know are the results. In particular: how often do batters swing and miss at the pitch in question? Fortunately, Texas Leaguers has a web app that accesses the Pitch F/x database and tells me what I need to know.
From there I compare those numbers to what is perhaps my favorite table currently known to mankind. Bojan Koprivica wrote a crazy good and long article that covers much of this territory, but with more of a sabermetric focus and concluded with this. I'd put it in the post itself, but it's so big that the formatting for everything goes to crap. For the record, "it" is a season's worth of pitches categorized by type and divided up by platoon advantage and results of those pitches.
Anyway the table says that with the platoon advantage batters whiff on north of 30% of sliders they choose to swing at. Without the platoon advantage, the whiff rate is 10-15* fewer percentage points. So while we've done nothing to solve the platoon problem, we have shed further light on the White Sox struggles against these random AAAA sinker/slider types. An average two-seamer and an average slider puts the RHB in a serious bind and we'd rightly expect him to do far worse than average facing that combo.
As a meaningful aside, If you actually click through and look at the table, you'll notice a sizable discrepancy between the slider whiff rate of RHB and LHB w/ the platoon advantage. Other such discrepancies exist throughout, not to mention on Dave Allen's charts and graphs. The primary causes, I would guess, are twofold.
One, lefties tend to be better hitters because they tend to also be left handed throwers. Left handed throwers can only play the outfield and first base, which means to make it in the bigs at all, they need to be really good hitters in the first place. So there's that selection bias. The other issue I'm pretty sure is that lefties tend not to face a lot of lefties throughout their careers. This means that the hitters probably aren't nearly as used to seeing lefty sliders as righties are used to seeing righty sliders. On top of that, southpaws have somewhat less velocity than RHP, which makes it all the more advantageous for managers to sit their left-handed batters against left-handed pitchers. This also explains the LOOGY fetish of many managers.
To get back to the slider as a complement to the fastball, it's all the easier to see what White Sox brass saw in Edwin Jackson. Between his elite four-seamer and his solid slider, he really did just need to start finding the zone consistently. Dominate righties and beat lefties with the big fastball and you're above average. Indeed, while Jackson could never have been worth Dan Hudson and David Holmberg, Don Cooper turned him into exactly what the Sox thought he could be.
Of course, Jackson had an outstanding four-seam fastball which makes dealing with the platoon problem a much smaller issue. Having looked at the slider now, we're still stuck with that question. We finally address that in discussing the...
Change-Up
The most common adaptation to the problem of throwing to opposite-handed batters is having a worthwhile change-up. It's often the last pitch added to a prospect's arsenal as the need for a third pitch doesn't tend to crop up until a truly advanced level of competition forces the issue. High school ain't that.
Turning to Bojan's table, we see once again a significant discrepancy between LHB and RHB when it comes to hitting the change-up. Fortunately Texas Leaguers' app also does platoon splits for whiffs, so this doesn't really put me out. RHB whiff on southpaw changes at just under 30% while lefty batsmen are at 20%. What the slider does to RHB without the platoon advantage, the change does to them with it. LHB on the other hand don't actually struggle all that much with the change, but it's still a better option than the slider in terms of whiff rate. The real difference maker is what happens on balls in play. Lefties absolutely crush RHP sliders, changes far less so.
Going back to Dave Allen's work, he's found that changes with extreme movement either up or down make for the most effective pitches. This makes me wonder if in fact what he's found is that the best change ups are just those followed by the best fastballs. Presumably, the guys who put a lot of movement on their changes are able to do much the same with their fastballs. In any case, he also made a fascinating chart comparing run value to the difference in velocity between a given pitcher's change-up and fastball:
As Dave concludes, it's very important that that change sit in that 5-12% slower window. This all gets back to what we said about the slider: it needs to look the same, but it needs to be slower and move off the barrel of the bat as it breaks. Disguise is absolutely critical and hence, the movement and velocity we can find in the Pitch F/x data can be very useful. Even so, while I feel like I have a better gauge for changes than sliders, ultimately what I look at is whiff rates when I'm checking out the numbers.
A quick note on the splitter: I really don't have any good data about it, though I imagine there are a good number of them in the data regarding change-ups since they tend to be misclassified for each other by the Pitch F/x algorithms. They do function similarly, though from what I've seen they move slightly differently. Splitters seem to have less running action and very little vertical movement. From my own experience throwing the pitch, this makes sense. Just from the grip, getting a lot of spin on the ball is difficult. You'll get even less spin if you throw it with a stiff wrist, which I believe is fairly common.
Curveball
The curve is an odd duck. The slider and change are sorta/kinda mirrors of each other. They're the out pitch either with or without the platoon advantage respectively. The curveball on the other hand is pretty rarely a pitcher's big strikeout generator. It's not an uncommon pitch, but it's typically differently used. For instance, regardless of the platoon situation, it's thrown about 10% of the time. Weird, but it makes a little more sense when you check out Dave's data.
The curve has a good amount of movement and it's the rare pitch with a lot of negative vertical movement. Meaning, it bites hard downward. Even the most downward moving sliders fail to break 3 inches, which is well below average for a curve. In addition to the vertical movement, it also breaks toward the glove side arm of the pitcher throwing it. These two components of its movement help determine its efficacy in the platoon dis- or advantage.
With the platoon advantage, the horizontal break is the biggest variable in its success. The more the pitches moves away from the batter, the better. Without, the downward bite is what matters more. This meshes with what Mr. Allen found with success of the slider and its horizontal movement. Even more interestingly, this finding meshes with what the typical curve looks like from RHP and LHP. Lefties, whom we know face very few LHB, throw an average curve with 6 inches of drop, but not quite 4 inches of horizontal cut. Righties on the other hand are at just over 5 inches for each component, more of a swiss army style pitch.
It's also worth mentioning the kinds of curves that show up. If you were looking at the distribution of curveball speeds, I'm guessing you'd find two sorts: fast and slow. The best kind is definitely the fast, the kind that makes Gavin Floyd who he is as a pitcher and has helped Josh Beckett dominate when he's on his game. But the most common variety is what I often refer to as the show-me curve. It's slower and move obvious. There's no disguise intended, but rather it's very difference from every other pitch--it's the slowest pitch in majors outside the knuckleball--is what makes it worthwhile. The show-me is an early count pitch that steals a strike without a swing. And given that it's thrown 10% of the time, a batter can't expect to see it even once per PA. Gavin, on the other hand, threw his twice as often over the last two seasons. Remember: how often a pitch is used says a lot about its quality.
Cutter
The pitch that launched Esteban Loaiza's Cy Young candidacy and made John Danks into the excellent pitcher he is today. Unfortunately, there's not a ton of data on it since it's still a fairly rare pitch. It's definitely on the rise though and it's my favorite pitch in the game. It's a true equalizer. Here's that graphic that opened the post with the cutter added back in:
You'll notice the error bars are much bigger for the cutter. That's a sample issue. Once again we see that LHB are a real bear to deal with, but that it's an excellent alternative to a two-seamer. That's potentially where it's real value lies. A pitcher without excellent velocity, but can throw a two-seamer and a cutter has the best of both worlds. Additionally, I'd wager the cutter isn't that difficult to learn to throw, as it's more of a re-imagination of the slider than an actually new pitch. If you've already got a two-seamer and a slider, you're well on your way.
Though as Dave says, it's more of a cross between a four-seamer and a slider. But I like to think of it as a slider thrown harder. You subtract horizontal movement for some gain in vertical movement and velocity. The ideal cutter has some amount of rise to it and, hopefully, little to no running action to the pitcher's throwing arm. The ideal location, if you've ever watched Johnny Danks pitch, is right under the hands.
Out of the hand, a batter reads fastball, presumably with a good amount of horizontal movement on it. The resulting pitch, however, is 5-10 inches farther inside than expected. The result, if not a whiff altogether, is very often a weak ground ball. And for pitchers trying to cut it in the big leagues, it can solve a lot of problems. More grounders from the guys with the platoon advantage? Who wouldn't want that? Especially if you're a AAAA sinker/slider RHP.
That said, if it were so easy to learn, it'd already be in more arsenals. Still, I expect the pitch to increase significantly in popularity, the unfortunate side effect of which may well be making Don Cooper less of a competitive advantage for the White Sox. Fortunately, we're not there yet, largely because adding pitches is a repetition-intensive activity. And if you're a pitcher who struggles repeating his mechanics or are already in need of fine tuning without the addition of another pitch, you simply might not have the time to waste trying to add yet another thing you're not good at.
Conclusions, Errata, Apologies
Oof. I'm already past the 2500 word mark, so it's time to wrap this sucker up. Sorry, knuckle- and forkballs. Maybe next time, Eephus pitch.
All it really comes down to is answering the question: how are you going to get guys out? For me, and perhaps this has been a point of over-emphasis, I like to break that up by platoon. It puts things in relief. First, check out the fastball. Can he get grounders? Can he throws strikes? Then check out how this guy's going to get whiffs from lefties and from righties. It's a pretty straightforward list and the end goal is projecting three things. Ground balls, strike outs and walks. If you can avoid the latter and get the former two, you're set. It's the specifics that get the word count up.
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He always forgets the jump.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I'm getting better but I ended
this post like three hours after I started.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Jan 13, 2012 8:52 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
You know I've got you.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I am interested in the gyroball.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Isn't a gyroball really just a cutter?
I swear I heard/read that somewhere…. that that pitching coach in Japan really didn’t invent anything new at all, just gave it a different name than the American counterpart….
Well, boys, it's a round ball and a round bat and you got to hit the ball square. ~Joe Schultz, 1969
I have read a bunch of different articles
including some stuff from Will Carrol and I still have no idea what it is.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Jan 13, 2012 1:24 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It's whatever your heart hopes most for.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
by U-God on Jan 13, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
i ate a hot dog while reading this,
made it more enjoyable.
by obnoxious american on Jan 13, 2012 9:55 AM CST reply actions 8 recs
I consumed a hot dog, didn't try to comprehend the article
and enjoyed myself immensely. Intellectually, the only thing I obtained from the piece was that colin thinks he is better than me.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Jan 13, 2012 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Another excellent piece!
Nit-picky, but I would have enjoyed 3 separate articles per pitch type. I can see how it took you 3 hours to write since I’ve read & re-read 3 times! The pitcher/batter chart is awesome & very telling.
No effin hotdogs here. And, for the record, Colin is better than you Rhub. Hehe!
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
at what?
Pleasuring himself with graph paper? Living near a larger concentration of Starbucks? In all seriousness, nice series, colin.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
don't knock pleasuring yourself with graph paper until you've tried it.
by South Side Expat on Jan 13, 2012 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
I said he was better than me at pleasuring himself with graph paper
which means I am worse at it.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
perhaps a graph of colin & rhub pleasuring themselves with graph paper?
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, 1/2 pack of cigarettes...it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Too graphic.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
The concurrent compass usage makes it NSFW
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
You might have a point
I didn’t want to split it up because I thought it built upon itself. But 2600 words is a lot in one sitting.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Jan 13, 2012 1:17 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
glad you wrote this up. also thanks for this:
Can he throws strikes?
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
i'm disheartened that you didn't mention my personal second best pitch
the splitter! I used to find it had the same effect on both righties and lefties… If it was low neither did much damage… if i hung it though, as hawk would say “put it on the board”.
I couldn’t hit a decent slider. Or a decent curveball. Actually i couldn’t even hit a bad slider (the REALLY bad ones i could handle). Thats why I hopped on first pitch fastball so much Buehrleman would have been charting my plate appearances.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I did too, you consummate reader
There’s not a lot of data on them in particular, so they got lumped in with the change. I threw one till I started to get some elbow pain that coincided with that SI article about elbow pain and throwing splitters. Went with a change thereafter.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Jan 13, 2012 12:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
oh hey! you did!
i didn’t throw a change so i glossed over that section.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i never associated splitters with elbow pain. interesting.
i was lucky enough to never have arm trouble until winging a football 50 yards without warming up. now my shoulder is baked.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Do you remember that article?
I have no idea how right it actually was but they talked up the declining popularity of the pitch as a result of injury concern.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Jan 13, 2012 1:21 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
no i don't remember it. im older than you though so i was probably in the fat guy leagues by the time that came out. haha
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I did too, you consummate reader
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Jan 13, 2012 12:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
one of my brothers was a good HS pitcher, pitched some in college, too.
used variations of his splitter heavily in his pitch selection.
he said by tweaking his thumb position he could elicit different movement, i.e. tail in or out.
once he got a grasp on that, his curveball became mostly a show-me pitch and he primarily worked 2-seam, 4-seam and his platoon splitter.
was pretty damn effective, too he just topped out around 84-85mph. only 21 though, so he’s thinking of giving it another shot.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
I could do the same thing when I threw it
but I couldn’t do it consistently. I think for me it was about wrist action. You could either pronate or throw it with a dead wrist and each would change the action.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Jan 13, 2012 1:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ok, a bit embarrassed that I don't know this...
I was never a pitcher (I was barely good enough to play 2nd in Little League, least amount of chance to throw the ball away there.)
So does a breaking ball = change up or a slider or a curve ball or a cutter? Or is it any combination of pitches that aren’t obviously a fastball that the announcer just didn’t recognize? I hear announcers use the term and just have never known exactly what they mean by it.
Well, boys, it's a round ball and a round bat and you got to hit the ball square. ~Joe Schultz, 1969
I'm not sure there's an actual standard defn
but I’ve always taken a breaking ball to be either a slider or a curve. I would guess it came into being because they can be tough to distinguish if you’re sitting in a dugout or calling a game. I suppose a cutter could be grouped into that, but the nice thing about the cutter is you can usually tell just by location what it is.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Jan 13, 2012 1:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I always lump cutter in with the fastballs.
To me, breaking balls are sliders, curves, slurves, and knucklecurves. Changeups and circle changes are off-speed.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Anything not a fastball is offspeed
Cutter is a pretty new pitch as far as I know so it kind of defies classical categorization.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Jan 13, 2012 2:01 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
it's not a new pitch. the term is of relatively recent vintage.
the pitch has been around since at least the 1930s, as johnny allen described the grip and pressure of a pitch he threw that is what we would call a cutter. people probably just called it a slider, or a slider variant, before the term cutter became popular.
I'll bet the reason they didn't call it a cutter back then
was because that would imply some sort of doctoring of the ball which was only just illegal in the 30’s. Weren’t there still some grandfathered spitballers still in the game back then? I can’t even imagine trying to figure out the spin of a completely tobacco juice black baseball. No wonder that Chapman guy got killed…
Well, boys, it's a round ball and a round bat and you got to hit the ball square. ~Joe Schultz, 1969
i thought it was known as a 'cut-fastball',
did they just settle on cutter because the other name confuses?
They are the same thing
The grip for the slider and cutter is pretty much the same but the release method is different. The slider requires a twist of the wrist and a cutter is more about pressure on the ball than wrist action. Although, I was a hitter first and a pitcher second so i didn’t really try to perfect the art of pitching, this is the way I understand it.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
yeah, i consider a cutter a fastball
and a slider a rotation pitch. the slurve i never really understood. a hard breaking ball? a larger breaking slider?
by obnoxious american on Jan 13, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
then there is the slutter.
by obnoxious american on Jan 13, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Dave: What is a slutter?
The Barber: Oooh, you can find that anywhere. The hood, on the block. It’s a bird…one of those you just bring home and wear out.
by larry on Jan 13, 2012 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Its a slider grip with a curve release, also your fingers are on the sides of the ball and it rolls out and across the plate.
As far as I was told
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
If I remember correctly, on the curve the thumb comes up from the bottom to the top upon release
where as with the slurve the thumb begins on the side of the ball and snaps up upon release. This could all be misinformation, as once again, I received no formal training in pitching.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
My senior year I pitched three innings when none of our available pitchers could hit the zone
our coach said, “who is going to throw some damn strikes?” I said, “I will”. Mostly fastballs and changeups but i sprinkled in a few slurves, my curve was shit. I did okay but I played infield and didn’t get another chance.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
yeah, me neither
i threw a couple 70 mph sliders in the backyard once or twice. i always figured they were categorized by speed more than anything.
by obnoxious american on Jan 13, 2012 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
If you want a good explanation of all the differen pitches-
The book – Watching Baseball Smarter has a chapter on them that does a good job. It’s a good read for anyone (like me) who didn’t play baseball and get the chance to learn some of the stuff like what pitches are what.
by South Side Expat on Jan 13, 2012 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
This is kinda interesting.
Way out of my league though. When I played ball it was just “see ball, hit ball”.
...watch guy in stand eat hot dog.
by South Side Expat on Jan 13, 2012 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
And sometimes it rains.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
i hope, for my own enjoyment
that the guy who started this business is the fat guy who’s blast-o’d in the fifth inning on $8 MGDs whose yelling about how the sox should have never traded rowand.
by obnoxious american on Jan 13, 2012 4:33 PM CST up reply actions
he made a nice career out of it
i could’ve made it too. I just had an asshole coach who couldn’t see the talent right before his eyes. I had a 1.000 batting average (and 1.000 OBP) in my high school career.
by Shoeless In SC on Jan 13, 2012 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
Great stuff colin.
very informative and interesting.
Question: Why do you think the Sox haven’t tried to add a pitch to help Danks against lefties? He seems to be the rare lefty whose two best pitches (cutter and change) are much better against righthanded hitters. Wouldn’t it make sense for him to add another pitch to help against lefties?

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