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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Clearer offseason picture emerges after trading Quentin, Frasor

Some shady contractors in the paving business see a patchy driveway as an opportunity for an unscrupulous buck. They'll stop at the house, ring a doorbell and offer some "excess materials" for a seemingly harmless but unverified cost. The homeowner, thinking it's for DIY work, agrees without set terms, only to look out the front window hours later and notice the contractor took that as consent to redo the entire driveway in a shoddy fashion, then demand far more money than was discussed.

After a productive/destructive New Year's weekend by Kenny Williams, it's easy to feel like we've been had. I can imagine a lot of White Sox fans waking up from Rockin' Eves and stepping outside only to find a pile of project pitchers strewn about in front of the house, then discovering a note on the front step that reads:

TOOK TWO DECENT MAJOR LEAGUERS AS COMPENSATION THANKS

But nobody can call the cops on Williams after seeing him trade Carlos Quentin to the San Diego Padres on Saturday and return Jason Frasor to the Toronto Blue Jays on Sunday, getting four undependable pitchers in return. And nobody really should, at least at this point in the game, anyway. After some stutter-steps, he has given us a more understandable picture of his 2012 gameplan. Even if he were fired, his replacement probably would have to take the same steps.

Given the way the White Sox screwed the pooch in 2011, the GM had to shed payroll and get younger. I'm guessing Williams first tried for a bold trade or two with his starters, but after the Oakland A's and friends decided to flood the market with cost-controlled starters, he lost suitors for John Danks and Gavin Floyd. The latter could still be moved, but the former isn't going anywhere right away.

Without a big deal to reshape the roster, he had to go the other route -- continuing to trim the excess. Granted, in this case, what we're calling "excess" other teams are calling "depth," but without substantial bait to reel in a major prospect haul, Williams had cut everywhere else. These are hard times on the Oregon Trail. The ration setting is "bare bones."

So Quentin goes to San Diego, and the Sox hope Dayan Viciedo can pick up his slack. Just like replacing Sergio Santos with Addison Reed, and Mark Buehrle with Chris Sale. The Sox should still have a mildly watchable roster, but everything is going to need to break their way to have a prayer at contending, because they are devoid of backup plans. Then again, considering the White Sox had no interest in seeking alternate routes when they were readily available in 2011, maybe they don't deserve them.

Star-divide

Williams might not be done, but it doesn't look like he has to do more. The White Sox have $97 million committed to their 2012 payroll, and with Danks' deal in the books, they have no outstanding arbitration cases. They are in a position to open the season with a payroll reduced by at least $20 million, which should be enough to compensate for 2011's poor play and attendance.

Unfortunately, neither Quentin nor Frasor had any measurable trade value, so Williams continued to double down on his organization's ability to mold erratic arms. Spring training may as well be called Fringe Prospect Central Casting when you look at the amount of new guys Williams has added to the mix:

  1. Jhan Marinez
  2. Donnie Veal
  3. Jose Quintana
  4. Nestor Molina
  5. Simon Castro
  6. Pedro Hernandez
  7. Myles Jaye
  8. Daniel Webb

Going to the scrap heap is a charming idea when it produces a Matt Thornton or a Philip Humber. It's less so when you get the 2007 bullpen, and that's a wholly realistic outcome. But like Thornton and Humber, some of these guys had serious pedigree before injuries or inconsistent mechanics got in the way, and so Williams is turning to Don Cooper and Kirk Champion in hopes of finding strains of talent in players written off by other organizations.

That's really Williams' best shot at getting any kind of impact for two players who didn't have hot trade stocks. Quentin and Frasor lacked the surplus value that leads to compelling trades, and in particular, Quentin offered more to the White Sox than any other team. When that's the case, any nondescript return is going to hurt.

At least there's a plan. It's going to be unsatisfactory in the short term, involving plenty of finger-crossing and packing the potential for serious short-term pain. But the GM has taken a top-heavy roster, lopped $20 million off the payroll while carrying 14 decent starters, and is playing to the system's strengths in the hopes of getting cheap talent to offset the dead weight at the top sooner than people expected. The worst-case scenario is three years of nothingness until Alex Rios and Adam Dunn get out of our lives.

This is likely the same playbook a non-Kenny Williams GM would use. As it so happens, Kenny Williams is still the one making the decisions. Sox fans have every right to be skeptical given Williams' track record and the steep climb the team faces, but he painted everybody into a corner, and any way out is going to be messy no matter who takes the lead.

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Great commentary, Jim.

I threw up when I saw Donnie Veal as #2 on the list. Jesus Christ, that is a wholly uninspiring 2012 list of Eight.

We're all here because we're not all there.

by winningugly on Jan 2, 2012 7:20 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

You realize the list is in chronological order, not skill?

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Jan 2, 2012 8:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Jesus, get into the New Year.

You are the tired “wh***” meme today.

We're all here because we're not all there.

by winningugly on Jan 2, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Had a big problem with the Frasor option pick up

This solves that with a couple interesting arms. I think your point is right there. KW doesn’t deserve the benefit of doubt but he has a passing grade so far this off season on what was expected. Hated losing Quentin (short term benefit) but arguably every missing piece has a replacement and I liked the fact they got Danks signed.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Jan 2, 2012 9:21 AM CST reply actions  

At some point I'd like to see folks take the young arms

and handicap the chances of success for each as a pro based off their known flaws as compared to the White Sox way.

"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun

by Tdogg on Jan 2, 2012 9:26 AM CST reply actions  

The guys without a cutter/slider, or those who have poor command of it

probably have a better shot in our organization. Three of our starters has their spot in the rotation, to varying degrees, because of learning that pitch after joining the Sox.

by 3E8 on Jan 2, 2012 11:22 AM CST up reply actions  

If Castro can put some more polish on his slider, he's certainly a candidate to make progress.

And like you said, I’ll be curious to see if any of these guys adopt the cutter.

by polodude017 on Jan 2, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Cutters for everybody

Pass this case of box cutters around boys!
Keep them handy,Glendale is not a safe area.

by Lil Jimmy on Jan 2, 2012 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I kind of wonder...

if losing Buehrle will hurt them at all in teaching this pitch.

by polodude017 on Jan 2, 2012 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

That was odd.

What I meant to say was, I wonder if losing Buehrle will hurt their ability to teach the cutter to guys.

by polodude017 on Jan 2, 2012 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

You don't think he helped teach a guy like Danks?

I really have no idea, I’m just thinking out loud here.

by polodude017 on Jan 2, 2012 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Buehrle isn't the only pitcher that can throw a cutter

Doesn’t really matter if Mark helped teach Danks or any other pitcher how to throw one. That is the coaching staff’s job. Losing Buehrle isn’t going to prevent pitchers from learning a type of pitch.

by 815Sox on Jan 6, 2012 9:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Jaye and Webb

I know you are better acquainted with these players than others on this board but I for one will keep an eye on these two because of Paddy’s past affiliation with the Blue Jays

by Lil Jimmy on Jan 2, 2012 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

There's a difference between "keeping an eye" on a guy...

and thinking he has a “meaningful chance of success” as larry said. Jaye hasn’t even touched A-ball yet and Webb isn’t much further along and is already 22. That’s not to say neither of them will ever make the majors or contribute, but there so many things that could derail that for them. Castro and Molina on the other hand are much further along and have experienced success at AA.

by polodude017 on Jan 2, 2012 2:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Not to mention the fringy guys they already had in the organization.
Spring training may as well be called Fringe Prospect Central Casting when you look at the amount of new guys Williams has added to the mix

by polodude017 on Jan 2, 2012 9:54 AM CST reply actions  

Last seven months

You can add Zach Stewart’,Eric Johnson ,Jeff Soptic,Scott Snodgrass,and Blair Walters.
I recall Doug Lauman saying last spring that system was very short on pitching and that was where they would concentrate on adding.That makes 13 fresh arms to the system.
The draft in June offers the best position for the White Sox in years.
Sometimes when the present is bleak you look to the future.

by Lil Jimmy on Jan 2, 2012 9:55 AM CST reply actions  

I for one will smile

if we roll out septic and snodgrass to pitch in the same game- these are proper surnames, with BOLLOCKS!!

by hoodlight on Jan 2, 2012 11:14 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Good article Jim.... Thanks.

I was wonder how much we could have gotten from Quentin if we traded him last year before the trade deadline and go ahead with Viciedo. It seemed there were various teams interested, and I am wondering we could have done better than the recent Padres’ deal.

…so Williams is turning to Don Cooper and Kirk Champion in hopes of finding strains of talent in players written off by other organizations.

So basically, KW is sorta passing a portion of his job to Cooper and Champion. Understandable, since he no longer can do his job right.

For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.

by JofpGallagher on Jan 2, 2012 10:38 AM CST reply actions  

or

Maybe KW passing arms on to Cooper and Champion is doing his job?

GET TO THE CHOPPA!!!

by hoosier3 on Jan 2, 2012 10:43 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

shouldn't any competent gm value the contributions of coop/champion (and herm)

when considering prospects to acquire? hasn’t colin and others many times acknowledge the significant contribution coop gives to the team?

by onlysoxfaninboston on Jan 2, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Sure. Very good points.

I did use the words “passing a portion of his job”. I know Cooper has its responsibilities, but that does not mean that if the team fails because Cooper failed to make of Nestor Molina the next Cliff Lee that would be the couches fault, and not KW who brought in plenty of good arms to work around.

Yes, coaches have their responsibilities, but the GM has to give them good players they can work around. In my opinion, in recent years KW has been failing to find leverage in our players to get good deals. I think I will never forgive him the Dan Hudson deal.

For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.

by JofpGallagher on Jan 2, 2012 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

You miss my point. My point has nothing to do with Cooper's job

I think KW has failed to bring good talent to the Sox while losing the good talent we have. Not always, but more often than not.

For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.

by JofpGallagher on Jan 2, 2012 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

It seems many other think like me
Some talent evaluators are saying that the Padres gave up almost nothing in the way of prospects with upside for Quentin, so for the Chicago White Sox, the primary benefit of moving Quentin — whose market value has dropped precipitously in the past three seasons because of the injuries that limited him to just 348 games in the 2009-2011 seasons — is to shave payroll.

From Buster Olney Team’s Ranking article (Need to be ESPN insider to read).

For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.

by JofpGallagher on Jan 3, 2012 8:56 AM CST up reply actions  

From '08 his value dropped "precipitously".

From 2010 to 2011? Notsomuch.

We're all here because we're not all there.

by winningugly on Jan 3, 2012 10:08 AM CST up reply actions  

You're right... I was thinking on the timing of the trade

I believe Jim mentioned it in the article above. A different picture (and return) could have unfold if the Sox traded Quentin by the trade deadline in 2011 season and give definitely the opportunity to Viciedo who everyone else beside KW and Ozzie were clamoring about. This reminds me that Swisher trade (Yankees version) just that we didn’t get a crappy infielder. Just the two pitching prospects.

For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.

by JofpGallagher on Jan 3, 2012 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

By the time the Sox were out of it, Quentin hurt his shoulder and wasn't tradeable.

Viciedo could and should have had his opportunity at the expense of Dunn.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Jan 3, 2012 11:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Good point....think your are right, I had forgotten about the injury

Anywho…we’ll see what these pitching prospects brings to the table. At least we have a little bit more options down in the farm system than before. I am glad to see Quentin go, although I believe we could have gotten more of him at the right time. I was never a fan of his FB% (Led the majors in 2011 by a comfortable margin among players with 400+ PAs) and IFFB% stats (Beckham’s % is also not good here).

For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.

by JofpGallagher on Jan 3, 2012 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Would have think some of that Hudson deal is on Coop

Not saying it doesn’t ultimately fall on KW, but his input was probably a factor in that decision.

by MelidoPerez on Jan 2, 2012 2:45 PM CST up reply actions  

He acquired the players.

It is the job of the pitching coaches to refine them.

"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"

by U-God on Jan 2, 2012 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

You're not going to get top talent with no holes for the player the Sox were willing to trade.

What they did get is guys who have talent, but also come with certain warts that are hopefully correctable. These guys aren’t without talent, but they have certain things that need to be fixed. There’s really no knock to be made on KW here unless you can show me a better offer he got from another team.

by polodude017 on Jan 2, 2012 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

We Still Can Contend in 2012!!

With a new manager and some fresh young faces we will win 90+ games!! Dunn will hit 40 hrs and Rios will bat .280. Everyone will hustle their rear ends off. Still hungover from New Years Eve.

by soxfan50 on Jan 2, 2012 10:56 AM CST reply actions  

White Sox stuck in the middle, says Fangraphs
The White Sox are in an incredibly unenviable spot. They’re not a good team, they have a lot of money committed to veterans and the team might not be able to significantly restock their farm system even if they do trade or sell them all. It’s not a one-year thing either, as the Sox have a lot of money already tied up for the 2013 season.

Pretty much. The author doesn’t know Danks has a full NTC, but whatever.

by Craig Grebeck on Jan 2, 2012 11:11 AM CST reply actions  

Gerry Rafferty is dead.

Please come up with another song predicting our 2012 season.

We're all here because we're not all there.

by winningugly on Jan 2, 2012 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

More rehashing of what we all already know.

I’d prefer to hold at this point and see what happens this season.

And Danks only has full no-trade protection for this year. After that it’s limited to six teams of his choosing. So they could certainly trade him after this season.

by polodude017 on Jan 2, 2012 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

halladay catches large fish and rescues man after anaconda attack

and chris carpenter stubs his toe….best part is the “punchline”

Which major leaguer would you like to see take a dangerously exotic trip? I know some White Sox fans who would like to see GM Ken Williams go spelunking in a deep crevasse …

link

by ndsoxfan on Jan 2, 2012 12:52 PM CST reply actions  

Carlos Quentin

Well, well, Mr. Williams thanks for screwin’ up my 2012 season before preseason is even two months away!!!! Now true Sox fans will have to hear all the garbage that comes out of those obnoxiuos Scub fans pie holes because you can’t put together a DECENT roster for Robin and Coop to work with, This has first year Robin Ventura coach by the nads and it reaks of disaster for him (I’m a big R.V. fan) and his staff, you have’nt even given the poor guy a friggin chance! It’s time for you to go poo-poo head and go smoke your crack somewhere else, DANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by hooch556 on Jan 2, 2012 1:46 PM CST reply actions  

You make one decent point in there.

I’m actually somewhat convinced that the Cubs are on the right track with Epstein at the helm. Haven’t been able to say that in a while.

by polodude017 on Jan 2, 2012 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

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