White Sox Winter Leagues update: Bullpen candidates
Of the 438.1 relief innings by White Sox pitchers in 2011, the pitchers throwing 212 of those innings will no longer be in the bullpen. The bulk of those innings were from Sergio Santos and Chris Sale, meaning the White Sox will need to replace a significant amount of high leverage innings.
Of the 2011 stalwarts, Jesse Crain, Matt Thornton and Will Ohman all appear to be returning. Addison Reed was considered a near sure bet to be in the 2012 opening day bullpen and Jason Frasor's departure only bolsters his chances. That leaves an open competition for as many as three spots (assuming a seven man bullpen).
And that competition has already begun. A number of the primary candidates, as well as the dark horses, have been pitching in various Winter Leagues. And while Spring Training performance will likely be the primary driver of roster decisions, past performance usually dictates the opportunities a player gets in Arizona. So how have the bullpen hopefuls done in their most recent past performances?
Hector Santiago is Exhibit A for how a successful offseason can alter a player's path. Last offseason, he added a screwball during his Puerto Rican Winter League (PWL) campaign and transformed from organizational afterthought to possible rotation material. This offseason, he didn't change the formula and returned to the island. He's had good success: 16 G, 19.1 IP, 15 H, 8 BB, 19 K. If the White Sox do intend him to be a starter long-term, continuing to build up his innings in Charlotte may be the best path for him. However, the lefty has the stuff to be an effective option for the bullpen in 2012.
Charles Leesman also pitched in the PWL, spending his November there. After a less than impressive return to Birmingham in 2011 as a starter, it may now be the time to shift him to the bullpen, where his long-term home will surely be. The lefty took advantage of his month: 10 G, 11.2 IP, 9 H, 4 BB, 13 K. Control has always been the issue for Leesman and continuing to limit the walks in Spring Training will be the key for him.
Deunte Heath got himself added to the 40 man roster this offseason. In his two seasons in the White Sox organization, the righty has produced some impressive strikeout rates and some unimpressive walk rates. He spent a month in the Venezuelan Winter League (VWL) where he worked as a starter: 7 GS, 35.1 IP, 15 BB, 34 K. He'll also need to throw strikes if he wants to have a chance.
After getting a September call-up in 2010, Gregory Infante hasn't done himself many favors by - you guessed it - not throwing strikes. More troubling, though, was that his strikeouts also disappeared in 2011. The righty didn't correct either of those issues in the VWL: 19 G, 15.2 IP, 16 H, 12 BB, 9 K. He appears to be trying to become a non-prospect.
Jhan Marinez also didn't do much of anything differently in the Dominican Winter League than he'd done during the regular season: 10 G, 8.1 IP, 5 H, 6 BB, 10 K. He's going to be a project for the White Sox.
Once upon a time, Brian Omogrosso was a member of the 40 man roster. Injury derailed him and he's never quite gotten back. Kenny Williams has talked about the righty as possible bullpen material for 2012 and his VWL stint won't hurt his dark horse candidacy: 6 G, 6.1 IP, 6 H, 2 BB, 6 K.
Nathan Jones has always had great promise but has never put it together. No apparent progress in the PWL: 16 G, 14.2 IP, 13 BB, 16 K.
Dan Remenowsky hit the wall in AAA last season and he didn't right himself in the PWL: 11 G, 11.1 IP, 15 H, 8 BB, 8 K. [Edit: Four of the walks were apparently intentional walks. That is an inordinate amount for just 11.1 innings and certainly makes his line more palatable.]
All of these guys will be joined by a gaggle of others - Dylan Axelrod, Zach Stewart, Donnie Veal, Simon Castro, Brandon Kloess, Brian Bruney, Anthony Carter, Pedro Hernandez, Leyson Septimo, Eric Stults and surely some players to be named - in one of the openest bullpen competitions in recent memory.
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Sigh.
This is the epitome of “fungible”.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Jan 4, 2012 6:13 AM CST via mobile reply actions
But isn't that the point of assembling a bullpen in a cost efficient manner
by onlysoxfaninboston on Jan 4, 2012 6:25 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Um,
“fungible” should mean “cheap with some proven performance somewhere beyond A ball”.
My Lord.
We're all here because we're not all there.
sure, maybe a larger degree of luck than usual (relative to most teams and cws from recent years ) is required to make a successful bullpen
perhaps i should be more worried about the bullpen b/c we don’t have buerhle and his solid lock of 200+ innings, but i already have low expectations for this team this year
by onlysoxfaninboston on Jan 4, 2012 8:47 AM CST up reply actions
I believe that happiness is the absence of want.
I want nothing from the 2012 Sox. Thus, I am moving toward happiness.
We're all here because we're not all there.
I love the smell of lowered expectations in the morning.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Jan 4, 2012 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
It smells like victory about 45 percent of the time.
by Yinka Double Dare on Jan 5, 2012 10:07 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
chances are this bullpen will be fine.
they will have an 8 and 9th as good as any. Fill in the rest. No need to spend a fortune on it.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Jan 4, 2012 9:51 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
what are the chances that you are wrong?
that is what I am curious about.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
No need to spend a fortune on it.
this
by onlysoxfaninboston on Jan 4, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
It would be nice to have one more proven"ish" guy
but it seems the price is high for those types, eh?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Might as well start getting a look at the all the relievers in the high minors.
See if any of them are worth a spot moving forward.
I am realistic about the fact that the White Sox
probably will not win the division this year but there are enough questions on our roster with possible upside answers in comparison to last year, that I would hate to see games blown in the 6th or 7th inning that we could have possibly won.
We have three spots open, I want to lessen the chances of seeing a revolving door of shit in those three spots.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Sure, it's just that proven-ish guys are in short supply.
And tend to either be overpaid or turn out not so proven. Or both.
I wouldn’t mind terribly if the team picked up a veteran for under $1 million. But I also wouldn’t expect that to make a big impact on their win-loss record if he’s the fourth or fifth guy out of the pen.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Not enough evidence that a team is losing enough games in the 6th or 7th to make a difference
The real problem at that point is the rotation sucks. I stand by what I said. If they go into the season with Crain, Reed, Thornton and Ohman fill in the rest.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
You're right about that that the rotation would be sucking if we are losing in 6th and 7th
but Sale is going to have a leash on his innings right? With Buehrle gone our bullpen will proably be used more right?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
if a team is losing enough games in the 6th, the problem is the rotation sucking.
if a team is losing enough games in the 7th, responsibility is getting much more bullpenny.
6 innings average for 32 starts is a few innings short of 200. one usually would prefer a bullpen that goes 4 deep with effective relievers. i don’t think i’d put ohman in there ever; he’s just a specialist. and reed is of course debatable still.
which is not to say the white sox should be spending on the bullpen.
I was about to mention the while Ohman did yeoman's work last year
it makes me nervous seeing him mentioned as our 3rd or 4th option out of the pen. Early last year when Ozzie was using him in non-loogy situations people were going nuts, me included, and now tdogg is fine with Crain, Reed, Thornton and…Ohman?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
i'm with you on ohman
but I wouldn’t worry about spending on the pen til (at least) we see if there is gonna be any offense whatsoever.
YOU WANT TO WASTE ADAM DUNN'S REVIVAL SEASON?
OR yes, lets trade all those fringe pitching prospects for Darren Oliver midseason.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
ohman should never ever face a righty again.
if robin can make sure that happens, then ohman might be okay.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
I realize ohman is a stretch
I laughed when I typed his name
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Jan 4, 2012 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Honesty rec.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
If the mandate is to keep the payroll down...
the bullpen is the last place I would add salary. And if you’re not going to spend a decent amount of money, is there really much of a difference between the guy you would give a couple mil and these guys? It’s not like we’re talking about someone who’s going to be pitching in a lot of high leverage situations. We’re talking about the last two guys in the pen.
I have no idea if he if he would be a better option but
for example, Dan Wheeler, made 3m last year and may be a better option than any of the guys listed in Jim’s article.
Where would be the first place you would add salary if not the bullpen? Where would you upgrade instead? Bullpen pieces are relatively cheap compared to our other areas of “need”. You on the Cespedes train?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Wheeler: Too volatile.
After giving up four runs in the 8th inning and blowing a 3-2 Astros lead over the Oakland Athletics on June 13, 2007, Wheeler pushed fellow pitcher Chris Sampson in the dugout. Sampson was reportedly attempting to console Wheeler after another tough outing. Wheeler later apologized for his outburst and claimed he had no ill feelings toward Sampson, but he was called into manager Phil Garner’s office after the game because of the incident.
Wow. Someone posted this on Wiki? “Inconsolable”? Obviously needs sensitivity training.
We're all here because we're not all there.
You don't like the grindiness of it all?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Definitely not on the Cespedes bandwagon.
And I follow your logic. I guess in that situation I would rather just save the 2.5 mil (difference between Wheeler and a minimum salary guy) for a rainy day. Doesn’t seem to me the upside of Wheeler, or downside of a young guy, is really worth the cash when they are struggling to cobble together a payroll.
There’s really nowhere to re-allocate that money on the current roster without adding more to it. I see your point there. I would rather it go to signing some less costly international guys or, GASP, the draft. It’s easy for us fans to think of this money as a renewable resource, but the reality is that 3 mil saved this season could very well be 3 mil more that’s available down the line to re-up Floyd or sign a different FA or something else. Just my two cents.
You're right
I am projecting out into the summer, the depressing game threads of blown leads in the middle to late innings.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
they just traded away jason frasor.
which would be sort of an odd thing to do if they were intending to spend meaningfully on the bullpen.
I thought larry wrote the article.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
To zoom out a little bit here
probably will not win the division this year but there are enough questions on our roster with possible upside answers in comparison to last year, that I would hate to see games blown in the 6th or 7th inning that we could have possibly won
It sounds like you are already conceding that the more likely scenario is that they are not competitive in 2012. Which means there should be a pretty low ceiling on acquisitions made in the offseason that seem to be oriented toward that less likely scenario (i.e. bullpen).
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Don't make me rehash shit that we have been talking about since the season ended
The Sox could contend, if a series of things happen with last years underachievers in the lineup, who will remain nameless. It isn’t likely but it is the only hope I have. To me the offense looks extremely weak based on last years performances but the bullpen looks weak because it looks like we are going to patchwork together 3 spots, Ohman is scary and Reed is talented but an unknown. We can’t shore up the lineup, we just have to hope, so I was thinking, “why not shore up the bullpen?”
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I've just never been in favor of spending substantial money on relievers.
Especially on a team that I don’t see having a great chance of contending. There’s just too good a chance they flop. They are also very easy to find in failed pitching prospects (which the Sox have in spades!).
i agree.
i also think the sox may have learned the wrong lesson from the 2007 bullpen debacle.
obviously, the linebrink situations suggests they did.
i think it was a good idea to get a bunch of big arms down in the bullpen for cheap and see what happens. it would be nice to have a few of those be truly reliable, but league minimum wild card big arm pitchers isn’t a bad way to fill out a bullpen.
and the fact that the sox tried it once and it failed is a bit disappointing. i don’t think it not working one season means the idea is a failure, just had the wrong group.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
I have no problem with that if it's a minimal commitment.
Just think the difference between a proven vet who flops and an unproven guy who overachieves is not something the White Sox can afford to spend a lot on.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
i have a problem with it.
it’s time to stop throwing good money after what is almost certainly bad. i discussed this last season with respect to omar vizquel. if you’re a team that’s in contention, sure, go ahead and spend a couple million on a reliever. otherwise, don’t bother.
if the white sox find themselves contending in july, there will be oodles of marginal relievers available. they’ll even be some good ones available at a pro-rated salary equivalent to what you’d be committing to a marginal reliever now. right now, there isn’t anything to shore up on a team that’s got water gushing in on multiple fronts.
by larry on Jan 4, 2012 4:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm also against a couple million
Minimal as in less than a million was more what I had in mind. But I agree with the overall gist of what you’re saying.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
there's no point in guaranteeing anyone a fucking nickel.
by larry on Jan 4, 2012 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I will sleep better knowing someone is on faucet-tightening duty aboard the Titanic
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
2007 was a cornucopia of hype and suck
At least in 2012, our expectations should be muted based on the options presented above.
sox pen
way the whitesox do things I would be SHOCKED if zach stewart isnt in the pen or rotation to start the year… its extremely safe to pencil reed in, and then i think santiago has a very good shot… so probably only 1 maybe 2 surprise names will pop up on the 25 man roster to start the year
I'd agree, I think Stewart is pretty much a shoe-in if the roster stays as-is.
That leaves two open spots. I think Santiago should be given the chance to keep moving as a starter. I could see Leesman moving to relief, but he might need some time in the minors to adapt to that. I could see Alexrod getting a shot as the long guy, that makes six. Not sure who the last guy would be. Not a bad pen in my opinion. Could certainly be worse and there’s considerable upside there.
by polodude017 on Jan 4, 2012 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think the talent in pen will be all that bad
But I do think that the rotation will pitch a lot fewer innings this year so we will be subjected to a lot more innings by the 5th, 6th, and 7th guy in the pen which will make it feel worse.
All the more reason to have guys like Stewart and Axelrod in there.
Guys who can go a few innings at a time if need be.
case closedest.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Free Agents
Usually in January the White Sox sign a slew of fringe pitchers.
Last year Jeff Gray,Josh Kinney,Brain Bruney and Phil Humber all saw time in the majors with the Sox.Sometimes pretty good.sometimes not so much.
In keeping with tradition we can expect them to sign the Loch Ness Monster this month
White Sox 2012: Helplessly rebuilding?
Definitely a bullpen guy.
He’s an odd two pitch pitcher – an extremely elusive breaking ball that just disappears out of the zone along with a gyroball.
by Yinka Double Dare on Jan 5, 2012 10:16 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Christ you are good.
Che signed December 21, 2007. Lieutenant Dayan signed December 12, 2008. No Cespedes signing here, in all probability. (More in response to s_o_s below, since I am not addressing pitchers, but whatthehell.)
We're all here because we're not all there.
Actually Humber was waived 1/18/11 and claimed by the Sox.
Kinney signed 1/9/11. However, Bruney signed 12/10 and Gray 11/10. SSS, to be sure, but there is still a shot we might see some cannon fodder signed in January.
We're all here because we're not all there.
hence the "usually" and "surely some players to be named".
and humber is the only recent example of a fringe pitcher being signed in january who made the opening day roster. nor was he a bullpen arm, which is what this post is about.
He was signed in January, 2011.
He was brought up in August. This does not support your contention that no one fringy made the major league roster that was signed in January who was specifically signed for the bullpen. He replaced Humber in the rotation when Philly was struck by a line drive. He was a reliever the previous two years. He was a bullpen guy.
We're all here because we're not all there.
yes, this is the salient point.
we’re essentially talking about non-roster invitees. humber was a bit of a special case because he was put on waivers for a second time in that offseason and, of course, had to be added to the 40 man roster. with the additional fact that he couldn’t be optioned, he was a guy who was contemplated to be a serious contender for the opening day roster.
there are still some relievers out there who are legitimate major leaguers who will be getting guaranteed contracts. it appears that the white sox aren’t going to be interested in such players due to money concerns. the better minor league free agents (i.e., guys who are non-roster invitees) have also all generally been signed at this point in the offseason. brian bruney fits this both this offseason and last. those guys are the longest shots to make an opening day roster because they aren’t on the 40 man roster, can be sent to the minors and are (usually) considered to be behind players already in the organization (i.e., minor leaguers such as described in this post). however, i think bruney may be a bit of an exception to that because he was on the team last season.
possibly slightly less-fringey candidates may be acquired
Kenny may still go stealth mode on us. e.g., early in the offseason, someone (David Schuster?) was reporting that Brent Lillibridge was the Sox player getting the most attention from other teams. Don’t know if that’s still true, but if they do manage to sign Cespedes, Lilli or De Aza may be moved to bring in more fringe+ pen help.
I just don't see why this team would waste assets on relievers at this point.
With Thornton, Crain, Ohman, Reed, Stewart and the host of arms in the upper minors, it just doesn’t make any sense for a team that is on some type of budget to waste money on middle relievers.
I still think Stewart ends up a starter.
with Peavy most likely being injured for a majorty of the time, I’m sure Stewart will b ein the Rotation. Danks, Sale, Floyd, Stewart, Humber. Another possibility is Floyd getting traded.
Like you said, it's gonna take a trade or an injury to get Stewart into the rotation.
I guess there’s a decent chance of either, but at this point I would say he’s ticketed for the pen. I’m actually curious to see what he can do there, his stuff seems to play better out of the pen than the rotation.
He only has two major league pitches right?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Sox sign former 2000 1st round pick Corey Smith.
He’s 29 and never made the majors. Has 182 career minor league dingers and a slash of .258/.327/.425
He immediately becomes our third best positional prospect.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
FTJ.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Jan 4, 2012 4:04 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Hahn coming up on MLB network clubhouse confidential. tune in.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I don't have MLBNetwork
so I am going to have to have you tell me how he talks very much and says nothing.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
it was kinda weird to me
but he seems to have some similar vocal mannerisms and inflections to kenny. so much so that i wasn’t listening to anything he said.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
KW should narrate shit.
Like Morgan Freeman.
by Shoeless In SC on Jan 4, 2012 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
"It's coming out and, there, it fell in the toilet!"
White Sox 2012: Helplessly rebuilding?
by greenlight on Jan 4, 2012 5:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't invent this shit
http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/tv/i-didnt-know-i-was-pregnant
I Didn’t Know I Was Pregnant reveals the astonishing stories of women who conceived and carried babies all the way to labor and delivery with no idea that they were ever pregnant.
but I know it is art.
Did they have labor over a toilet?
By the way, I think I know who I’ll be sitting next to at the methup if I can make it this year.
by Shoeless In SC on Jan 4, 2012 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
holy christ
http://health.howstuffworks.com/tv/i-didnt-know-i-was-pregant-pictures4.htm and some others…
should I shave?
She looks fucking incredulous.
Cassie learns that her shortness of breath is due to the fact that she’s pregnant – not just with one baby, but with two.
Usually when I’m out of breath it’s because I ran. Or have a severe cold and climbed a bunch of stairs. Not because I’m hauling around two potential humans. This is world-beating stuff, Troop. Yeah, yeah, RRRR.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
Or so you think.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
trying to contend with an eye on the future...
can’t explain the dunn situation- have to look to the back of the baseball card and hope he bounces back.
pretty much a bunch of bs. i thought it would be better than it was.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
did you think he sounded (literally) a little like kenny?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I thought he would shit gold bars on live television
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Looks like Buehrle and Ozzie are getting some other-Chicago-team company with the Marlins
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120104&content_id=26263904&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
We play on the "bad" side of town, we were supposedly cursed, and we wear black. Let's play.
marlins acquire big z
immediately get worse.
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
cubs could possibly be tagged for 15-16 mill off the 18 owed to Z in 2012
ouch
by onlysoxfaninboston on Jan 4, 2012 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
and convenient screw-up in the trib's summary
In return, the Cubs will receive right-handed pitcher Chris Volstad.
The Cubs will pay about $3 million of the $18 million owed Zambrano.
by onlysoxfaninboston on Jan 4, 2012 8:19 PM CST up reply actions
i'm not certain whose fault that is, but either way
dave van dyke is terrible at what he does.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
poor buehrle
i wonder if he had a say in this?
they’re gonna need a really big clubhouse in that new stadium to hold all of the egos on that team.
You are a lunatic.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Jan 5, 2012 7:53 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I liked not knowing who the fuck he was
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Not to judge a book by its cover
But Donnie Veal seems like a pleasant fellow.
by Jim Margalus on Jan 5, 2012 3:35 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I know that we aren't trying to spend money
But could Brad Lidge be an option? He was out for most of last season, and he may be looking for a 1 year contract to bolster his value before moving on. If he is healthy, he might be able to eat a lot of innings for us.
He hasn't pitched more than 60 innings since 2008.
Define “eat a lot of innings”.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Pitch enough innings
that we don’t have to use some scrappy minor leaguer getting pounded. I think that even if he pitches 50 innings it would be a worthy signing.
Need some news for Sox Fest
There usually is some sort of uninspiring signings announced at SoxFest, so I expect some uninspiring reliever signing. That said, I agree with the point repeated above that Zach Stewart seems a lock as the default long reliever / Peavy injury replacement du jour.

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