Zambrano leaves void in White Sox-Cubs rivalry, lazy trade rumors
Oil-disaster-sponsored trophy aside, the pulse of the crosstown series between the White Sox and Cubs weakened considerably last year. Flatlining play by both clubs left tickets unsold, and games off the national broadcast calendar.
Now we won't even have Carlos Zambrano to look forward to, as the Cubs traded him to the Miami Marlins, along with $15 million for A Guy Who Isn't Carlos Zambrano, a.k.a. Chris Volstad.
I always anticipated Zambrano starts because Big Z was responsible for two of my favorite moments of the crosstown series. Well, more accurately, it was one moment that he repeated twice -- both times, he degenerated into a 270-pound baby, leaving his teammates to answer the questions.
Unfortunately, MLB.com highlights only go so far, but we'll cope with some embedded video below the jump.
For instance, on June 28, 2009, we only see Zambrano screwing up a pitchout that would've caught Chris Getz at home on a busted suicide squeeze:
But we don't get to see what happened afterwards, which is what really made it special:
- Zambrano reacted by drilling innocent bystander Dewayne Wise.
- He then made a billion moves to first in an attempt to pick off Wise, as if he were desperately trying to erase his mistake.
- Wise stole second on him, anyway.
Zambrano's day ended after he walked the next batter (Scott Podsednik), and he gave thanks to God while leaving the mound.
The next year, this happened:
Although that tantrum drew national attention and embarrassed the Cubs to a great extent, I'm a much bigger fan of the first one. It was amazing to watch Zambrano basically reroute the entire game, with 40,000 fans on hand and a dozen guys standing on the field around him, in order to work through some personal issues under the guise of "pitching." It possessed a subtlety that abject insanity too often lacks.
Zambrano kept himself and the Sox in check last year, which was one of many ways the 2011 disappointed, but I would have eagerly awaited his next turn. Alas, with Zambrano and Aramis Ramirez gone from the North Side, and Ozzie Guillen and Mark Buehrle off the White Sox, the battle for the BP Crosstown Cup is going to have a decidedly different feel. At this point, A.J. Pierzynski is going to have to punch himself.
(Also, it's going to be a weird summer without at least one "SHOULD JAKE PEAVY BE TRADED FOR CARLOS ZAMBRANO BECAUSE OZZIE AND BECAUSE CHICAGO HAS TWO TEAMS AND I DON'T WANT TO CONSIDER 28 OTHER TEAMS THAT IS WAY TOO MANY TEAMS AND IT'S TOO HOT AND I'M BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORED" story.)

By the way, Ken Rosenthal got in a surprisingly strong shot at Guillen when writing about his reaction to the Zambrano trade:
Guillen is at or near the top of my "Managers on the Hot Seat" column every spring. Last season I dropped him to No. 2, just behind the Athletics’ Bob Geren, just ahead of the Marlins’ Edwin Rodriguez.
Pretty fortuitous, if I do say so myself, but Ozzie immediately began squawking on Twitter, saying he would take my job, etc. ... To quote LoMo, I literally had no idea what the dude was talking about.
I reminded Ozzie on Twitter that when he worked for FOX during the 2010 postseason, he pledged to wear a bow tie in a heartwarming display of network solidarity — and never did anything of the sort.
Ozzie responded that he would wear a bow tie the following postseason, at which point I reminded him that his goal should be to manage in the postseason, not broadcast in it.
And you wonder why Oz no longer is managing the White Sox.
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That article of Rosenthal you quote here is golden....
It’s gonna be a “telenovela” with lots of turns and twists of high caliber in Florida. Larry Banfield is gonna have a heck of a season.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
"his goal should be to manage in the postseason, not broadcast in it."
Love this line. Ozzie just wanted attention. He’s like that kid in school that gets terrible grades but tries to make up for it by doing stupid things to make people laugh.
Sure our team might suck in 2012, but we’ll suck without Ozzie and that is good enough for me.
by striker on Jan 5, 2012 7:18 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
last line is underrated
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
Ozzie probably just got so used to losing with the Sox...
that he forgot it was possible to make the playoffs.
Broadcasters have ego, too.
Will miss the annual dust-ups. I agree – vignette #1 was special.
We're all here because we're not all there.
I'd like to take this moment to applaud whoever chose that moment to play that music in the second video.
by mechanical turk on Jan 5, 2012 8:14 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
gotta admit
I think this is a really solid trade both ways. On the open market zambrano would have fetched more then a one year 2.5 mil deal, the marlins have the one manager who might be able to limit his nonsense and in a contract year zambrano has all the motivation in the world to be good in a contract year. On the cubs side they save 2.5 million, add volsted who is a former top pick and a guy who can atleast soak up some innings in a lost season and they eliminate a huge clubhouse cancer which you simply cant put a price tag on.
The Rosenthal Ozzie spat is freaking classic, this is why I love interactive media with sites like twitter and facebook, stuff like this comes out to the public whereas before it probably just would have been said in passing and only a select few people may have overheard it. FANTASTIC
I thought Volstad was projected to make around $2.5-3 MM this year.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Think he meant on Z.
But yeah, the cost of Volstad would be added. Still, like Wood who they got in the Marshall deal, he could be a solid starter if they can tweak him a bit. He’s not a big stirkeout guy, but he’s a former 1st rounder who gets a lot of grounders. If the Ricketts’ don’t mind the money, it looks like a pretty solid trade for them.
Great Comments
and I agree completely. I was always a bit fearful that Big Z would end up in a black jersey, but when Ozzie walked/was pushed out I no longer had that fear. On an additional note, I never believed the rumors about Javy Vazquez going to the Marlins for 2012, because he would never, ever pitch for Ozzie again after being so insulted by him.
"Great things have been effected by a few men well conducted" - George Rogers Clark
by Carthago Delenda Est on Jan 5, 2012 8:40 AM CST up reply actions
Pride.
One of the 7 Deadlies.
8, if you count Oney Guillen.
We're all here because we're not all there.
i think vazquez was planning on retiring when ozzie was still managing the sox
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Just saw a tweet that says he is probably retiring
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Sounds like sloth.
Bastard should keep working and build some damn ball fields.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
by U-God on Jan 5, 2012 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
We were at the 2009 game
My wife was looking forward to it because Zambrano was pitching and she wanted to see the Gatorade cooler thrown onto the field. We didn’t get to that, but his meltdown was even better (to me).
by kujoth on Jan 5, 2012 8:37 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
as highlighted by U-God, Kenny can't help himself when it comes to Blue Jays
White Sox 2012: Helplessly rebuilding?
Anyone have any reports on stuff for these guys?
Just curious.
Larry question
One of these guys does not seem like enough.Are both guys too much?
Also if we did trade Floyd will that mean that we keep trading?
There could certainly be other throw-ins.
These are just the guys being mentioned as the main piece(s).
Could we please get a hitting prospect or two?
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
no shit, christ
Paddy…and as far as McGuire OR Wojciechowski, how about both of them instead of one if thats what it is going to be
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I have often wondered what happens
When a rival GM gives KW the name of a positional prospect in return for one of the Sox players. A deep sigh? An angry no? Or maybe he uses the negotiating tactic of simply staying silent while the other person keeps talking until they eventually say something about a “projectable arm” and KW jumps in.
I know they never want to draft or trade for need, but at some point during the stockpiling of arms somebody is going to realize there is no long term solution for any position besides SS and possibly RF (though I still hold out the sliver of hope for Beckham). Then they’ll trade some of their arm stockpile for Juan Pierre or Mark Teahen and I will be forced to throw up.
really, what's kenny's ratio on pitching/position acqusistions?
10:1?
by obnoxious american on Jan 5, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
I bet we could name off a good majority of the young hitting acquisitions
Danny Richar.
D’Angelo Jimenez.
Tony Graffanino.
Wilson Betemit
Jayson Nix (may have been minor league FA)
… Those are all of the shitty INF projects I can think of while stoned.
should have been specific, "prospects"
i liked jimenez. he had one good year didn’t he?
by obnoxious american on Jan 7, 2012 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
I like both pitchers.
I just want some freaking position players.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
head scratcher
with a guy like cooper who can turn water into wine with scrap heap arms, its always been annoying to me that the whitesox primarily target pitchers in trades and via the draft… they should use assets to obtain positional players and then use coop as their ace in the hole to continue producing quality arms from underachievers off the scrap heap or in minor trade dealings
Most of the guys Coop has made great (Danks, Floyd, Thornton) had high pedigrees coming into it.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
pedigree is fine
but floyd and thornton were failed prospects, as was humber, as was jenks and then a total project like santos or a salary dump like contreres,
guys like mcguire and wojo arent failed prospects they are fairly well reguarded arms, we have to trade a good piece of talent like floyd to get one of them just like we had to trade top prospect mccarthy for danks, we arent gonna trade 10 mil of garcia, out of options joe borchard, or just give a spring training invite or make a waiver claim on those guys
It sounds like Coop could help Woj (can i call hime that yet) with a changeup or that elusive cutter
Coop could be the difference in making him a front line starter instead of a closer?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
So his success has been with failed prospects...
but guys who had substantial talent. Now you want him to do the same with random dudes who are nothing special? I don’t follow your logic.
coops success
is with a wide range of guys
the whitesox as an organization have been unable to produce their own hitters, so if im gonna trade floyd i would rather get a mlb ready bat back, instead of an arm
Young pitching is a valuable commodity.
I see no harm in stockpiling it. If they trade Floyd and Peavy leaves after this season, that leaves them with Danks and a bunch of question marks in the rotation. Yeah we all think Sale is going to be great, but he’s never started a game in the MINORS let alone the majors. Humber was a nice surprise last season, but he could easily return to a 5+ ERA. Stewart? Santiago? Castro? Molina? I see nothing wrong with bringing in young starters to an organization that has almost none.
i think my point is being missed
i like that we can stockpile young arms
all im trying to say is i believe we have an ace in the hole in cooper, we dont need to use are best trade asset at this point floyd to gain an arm instead of a bat, the sox have a much harder time finding good bats then they do good arms
Need a bat
I argee Knox.More than that a catcher.Aj is gone at the end of the year and now that Donny Lucy is gone I don’t know we we are going to do.
I see your point.
I guess my thinking would be:
1) You can never have too much pitching. If these guys are good, they will find a home on the major league roster.
2) There’s a lot of position players signed long-term on the major league roster that don’t look like they are going anywhere (for better or worse). Ramirez is locked in at short. Morel, Beckham, Viciedo and Flowers (though I don’t think anyone is sure how they will develop) are all years away from FA. Konerko still has two more years. And even the god awful Dunn and Rios, for better or worse, will likely be around for 3 more seasons. There’s just not a lot of room to manuever there unless they get rid of some guys. I have to think they are giving these guys another season to show what they can do before making any rash decision.
Still I see your point. They are thin on hitting prospects as well. I wouldn’t complain about getting talented young pitching back though. Like I said, you can never have too much.
We have some money coming off the books next year
It could be that KW wants to make use that available money for a bat or two in FA and keep to developing the young cost-controlled pitchers instead.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Yup.
Lopped off a good 20+ mil this offseason. With Peavy and Pierzynski hitting the road next offseason, that’s about another 20. Heck, if Rios and/or Dunn can approach mediocrity, they might be able to ditch them.
I could be totally wrong, but it seems Humber is more likely
to regress than repeat last year… I think what we saw later in the year is closer to what we should expect. I would love to be wrong though.
"he's the type to shoot through the farm system quickly and contribute at the big league level sooner vs later"
MLB.com on McGuire. Sounds familiar.
mcguire
werent the sox high on him out of the draft? not sure that is a good or bad thing, haha
Truly a sad day.
But let us never forget the hilarity that ensued when Doctor Al Yellon (sure, why not?) brought to us the marvelous Peavy-Zambrano idea, which not only inspired many amusing SSS comments – some downright mean, some outright hilarious.
And then, of course, some of SSE’s finest work.
Damn it, this is almost as sad as the Buehrle trade!
"I considered throwing a volley, but since I'm considerably closer to Ford City than Dodge City, I figure it might have been misinterpreted."
I enjoyed the Al-for-wu trade talk.
Bet you are sorry that trigger remains unpulled.
We're all here because we're not all there.
It would have been a lateral move, I think
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I can't wait for Zambrano and Hanley to get in a pissin' match.
Sabermetrics hurt my head, just give me the facts.
Somewhere
Mark Buehrle feverishly pages through his new contract looking for an out clause.
"They're a dead team walkin'." - Joe Cowley commentary on the Sox 2012 rebuilding year (WSCR interview, 12/7/11)
That picture is clasic too
Of Z screaming in the dugout, I remember it being in the Sun-Times the following day
I can't stop laughing
Ozzie responded that he would wear a bow tie the following postseason, at which point I reminded him that his goal should be to manage in the postseason, not broadcast in it.
And you wonder why Oz no longer is managing the White Sox.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
My appreciation of Ken Rosenthal just spiked 1000%
That was an outstanding burn. He seems so mild-mannered. Cold-blooded to know he could stick a knife in like that and twist.
Well, boys, it's a round ball and a round bat and you got to hit the ball square. ~Joe Schultz, 1969
Rosenthal.
Say the name. Think. Thousands of years of hate.
We're all here because we're not all there.
i know.
i swear this somehow makes up for some of it.
by obnoxious american on Jan 5, 2012 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
Let that be a message
To anyone else who says they are going to wear a bow tie and doesn’t follow through.
Dunn or Big Z
There was talk when Ozzie was managing the Sox that Dunn might be traded in this offseason for Big Z. Who would you rather have as the DH, Dunn or Big Z? . As much as I hate Big Z, I would rather have him as our DH than Dunn.
by WBWSF on Jan 5, 2012 10:53 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
That's ridiculous
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Good Lord.
It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.
Sympathy rec.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
I've always liked zambrano. he's going to have a very good year.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
If I agree with you, would you change your stance?
I think if anyone can reign Z in it would be Ozzie. I think Z will have a good year too.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
yeah, we know. you're on record already. almost everyone else thinks he's a jackass.
what do you like most about him? that he would ignore instructions from the organization he works for and injure himself swinging for the fences in batting practice or that he repeatedly acts like a maniac and disrespects his teammates who grow to hate him.
yeah, yeah, i know. the fire and the passion.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
by BuehrleMan on Jan 5, 2012 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah Ken, imagine if he had been yelling at Bo Jackson instead of Derek Lee, how much would you love his passion then?
he wouldn't have yelled at bo jackson.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 5, 2012 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Bo Jackson
Great Bo story.
Halloween three or four years ago.I am handing out candy and the garage door is open.On the back wall We have a 6 foot Bo Jackson poster.It was a give away at the park and you can measure your kids with it.A mother comes with her young son dressed as a Sox player, and after the candy she says he really liked your poster of Jermaine Dye.I say thanks it’s actually Bo Jackson.Two blank stares.
They both had no idea who he was.
A mom and a kid who probably wasn't alive when Bo played.
Not really that surprising.
You and I have much different definitions of great.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Jan 5, 2012 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
BO
Bo Jackson was everywhere all the time endlessly 24/7 and then to be completely unknown in a span of 12 or so years.Nobody finds that unusual?
I would have...
but my wife is a teacher and tells me all the time that her students don’t know frank thomas or sammy sosa. bo was done way before those guys…
but yah… dude was on top of the world and then poof… gone. I still think he was the best athlete i’ve ever seen.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Yes, but its not like he has really kept much of a presence media wise
Most likely enjoys his privacy, no shame in that. Last thing I read related to him was that he was apparently in “Ray Emery’s Corner” because they both had the same hip related issue and surgery.
Yeah, that tinderbox of a city
sure will calm him down. I predict he gets arrested at some point.
We're all here because we're not all there.
Heads are rolling.
Blood lust has been satiated for now.
We're all here because we're not all there.
and he can keep pissing of Canucks fans
The people of Vancouver do not like him very much. Problem is the Canucks/Hawks rivalry is going to be a very temporary one (like most non-geographically related rivalries are)
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-06-16/health/chi-canucks-fans-as-stupid-as-canucks-team-20110616_1_canucks-vancouver-fans-moronic
“Vancouver Fans as Stupid as the Canucks”
Good question though.
Zambranos's career oWAR is half of Rios career oWAR
In the last 3 years Zambranos oWAR is 1.70 while Rios is 1.00. I think betting that Big Z will be more productive with the bat than Rios in 2012 is not like a crazy idea.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
Bet his UZR wouldn't be far off either.
Definitely has a better throwing arm.
I think its a bit different when teams actually decide to scout and pay attention to you as a hitter
That said Rios sucks so who cares
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Jan 5, 2012 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What can I say?....I am a man on a mission
I bashed Pena so much….he was out by May. I am hoping for the same type of result for Rios.
I will bash Rios until I get tired. Rios is my new Pena.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Jan 5, 2012 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
see you in 2014
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Great, let's keep comparing Zambrano to awful players!
Prediction: Z is more valuable than Ryan Theriot in 2012.
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 5, 2012 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
Theriot does not make 12 millions...he is allowed to suck
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Jan 5, 2012 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
This is going to be fun to watch
They are probably the 3rd best team in that division (4th if Washington signs Fielder or Johnson does his usual half the season on the DL). Ozzie has his guys, his loudmouth idiot act is being embraced because it is better than being irrelevant, but it would be really hard to imagine it ending well.
So many candidates out there to be the cause of the first Zambrano meltdown. The converted first baseman trying to play a giant new outfield. The disgruntled shortstop who would probably take some strange satisfaction in botching a few plays at 3rd because in his mind he is a shortstop. The aging closer whose swing and miss/strikeout numbers fell off a cliff last year.
Going to be a fun side story.
i have to laugh at all of you hating on ozzie.
for yeaaaaaars most every one of you (not really directed at you melido)… sucked him off.
and now everyone thinks hes a loudmouth jerkoff that doesn’t know what he’s doing and is an egomaniac in it for himself.
where the hell you all been? i said that 6 years ago.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Its called winning
Everyone realized he was a certain way and its funny when things are going well. This is ironic though Ken. I just told a buddy this morning “man its kind of weird was I really that blinded that this dude was such an attention whore?” I immediately thought of you. :-)
So props to a certain degree but stop all this 2005 was like your 12th best favorite team bullshit.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
He is far from the only coach that likes the attention
That act almost always eventually wears thin. When he first came its what the Sox needed. I don’t know if we were really “blinded” persay.
Ozzie didn't quit the team 6 years ago. He did last year and that's why I think he's deserving of the wrath.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Dunn is one, Rios is the other one
Which ones are the 3 left?
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Jan 5, 2012 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
i wish he quit the team 6 years ago.
then i wouldnt have had to watch mackowiak in center. ::shivers::
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I started advocating for Ozzie to lose his job in 2010
I played poker at a friends house yesterday and he has a framed photo of Guillen on his wall and I convinced him it would be best to put that in a box somewhere. That being said, I like Ozzie in Miami, just as long as he stays out of White Sox business.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I wanted Ozzie's tongue cut from his head
in 1983. No one listened to me. I wanted him waterboarded after Sept. 11. I was ignored. I wanted him knighted after 2005. Swing and a miss. Now I want him to be Rainsford in “The Most Dangerous Game” in the borough of Hialeah.
No one listens. No one cares.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Jan 5, 2012 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
The Most Dangerous Game! Now that is a good story.
Personally i’d rather him be Zaroff.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
From The Wire?
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Chrissakes, Chi,
didn’t they teach this to you in high school?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game
We're all here because we're not all there.
high school? we read this in jr. high.
of course i taught this in my high school sped class last year… now i understand all of your typos.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
How's the job search, Einstein?
In my day we read books on stone tablets.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Jan 5, 2012 4:57 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ah. The Naked Prey! Why didn't you say so?
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
I am not sure Phillies without Howard are still the best team in that league or better than the Marlins
Great pitching, but you still need to score runs.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Jan 5, 2012 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
I must have missed all the great hitters on the Marlins
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Stanton, Hanley, Reyes, Sanchez, LoMo, Bonifacio (stretch)
Not bad.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
He is 23 years old and OPS'd .800
Not bad.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
525 PA's and 23 HR's in 2011
You would have to imagine he can improve on that if he was capable of that last year at such a young age. Or if you want to look at it this way, in 812 major league PA’s he OPS’d .811
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
oh man that got a pretty good laugh
I still remember when he finally got banned. god knows he was given plenty of chances.
Hanley had a down year but his back was bad and he only played 92 games
If he comes back healthy he is All-Star caliber.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
if he comes back healthy he is mvp calibre,
i’d think he’d increase his value shifting to third too. his defense should play better there.
He is young, he will be just fine
bet?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
given that i was unaware of his back being his problem last year,
i agreed with you that if he is healthy, then he is brilliant, so no.
don’t worry though, i’m sure we can find something to disagree on worth a bet.
He had an attitude problem last year too
Probably because he was stuck on a horseshit team. Marlins are vastly improved with some new veteran presence. Hanley isn’t the elder statesman he was last year and I’m sure Ozzie can manage his personality.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Thought that last year
But as long as those 3 pitchers are healthy, I don’t think it matters. The Phils scored 2 or 3 runs 50 times last year. Their record in those 50 games was 27-23. As far as the lineup, Howard is overrated and they will have a full year from Pence.
So Thome is gonna play at first? that I gotta see!
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Jan 5, 2012 1:40 PM CST up reply actions
he will presumably be playing a lot of first until howard returns.
not like he hasn’t played there before.
He can catch...but he can't field! A rolling will just go through his legs...he can't kneel down (quickly), can he?
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Jan 5, 2012 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
I don't, but you have to agree there is going to be a major whole at first with Thome "covering" "range"
I can predict loads of bunts to first base… practically a hit guaranteed.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Jan 5, 2012 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
What is the average record for teams who score 2 or 3 runs in a game?
We're all here because we're not all there.
They averaged 4.4 a game while only giving up 3.27.
I wouldn’t worry too much.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Marlins
I envision them geting a national broadcast opportunity on Telemundo.Lots of melodrama.Just need to work in some babes with cleavage.
I just cannot wait until they fire that diabolical animatronic sculpture
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Don't know
But as a comparison, our beloved White Sox went 17-32 in such games. Halladay and Lee pitching to lineups with pitchers is almost unfair.
Yeah
When your #3 would be the #1 on 75% of the teams in baseball, you probably don’t have a ton of concern with hitting unless it is really bottom of the barrel. Victorino/Pence/Rollins/Utley is getting a little old and rickety, but should be fine.
Good thing they're such similar pitchers.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Floyd and Beckham for McGuire, Gose, Drabek
From a twitter “source” not named Kona. That would finally answer the Sox need to have a toolsy but raw outfielder in their system.
by MelidoPerez on Jan 5, 2012 4:10 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
hmm
and who plays secondbase for us? Escobar?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Don't know
But I will not be buying into any Sox rumors of them acquiring a position player until it is from a reliable source
Is this Carl Rogers?
You’d make a good Rogerian therapist, Rhoob.
We're all here because we're not all there.
Well
I have a phenomenal field of various colored cardigans
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Quite the goose to the farm system.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I'd rather we give bacon a shot with manto first
Keep my shirt relevant!
NAOPOS
by blackoutsox on Jan 5, 2012 5:38 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
I agree
I don’t know how much I like the idea of trading bacon.
by MinneapolisSoxFan on Jan 5, 2012 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
id only trade bacon for a minimum of a medium rare steak
BAZINGA!!!
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
@Farrellball
#Breaking: Gavin Floyd has been traded to the #Jays. Specifics and press conference time will be announced soon.. #FarrellBall
I won't believe until it is on mlbtraderumors
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
me neither
but I’ll share anyways
I do find it VERY odd that we haven't seen anything on mlbtraderumors about this.
Not even a whisper unless I missed it.
KW very rarely has his major moves leaked iirc
it sometimes happens on the other end, but i think he tends to work with GMs he feels he can trust about such things.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
polo's new enough
figured i’d mention it
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Did anyone point him to the glossary?
Polish the rough edges a bit?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
In a related story, all of the White Sox have been traded for all of the Blue Jays
by billyok on Jan 5, 2012 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Not gonna happen
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
my math says McGuire and Drabek would be about right for Floyd
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Apparently many of the "experts" are scoffing at that.
Some seemed to think McGuire alone would be a good return.
i converted Victor Wang's surplus wins for prospects from WAB into fWAR
and then found Gavin’s projected using 3.5 wins for ‘12 and ’13 iirc. a top 100 pitching prospect is definitely not enough. a project like Drabek would make that about even in my estimate. it’s certainly close enough to not be any kind of obvious rip off. as if AA wouldn’t have done his own math and would get fooled on that.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
i will say that i haven't gone back and checked just to make sure
but i put a decent amount of time into doing it the first time.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Thanks good info.
Do you think there’s anyone in the Sox front office who knows such math?
Hudson.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Didn't you hear Hahn won a gold medal in Stuff Knowing
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Jan 5, 2012 10:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
the Dan Hudson trade suggests perhaps not
maybe the same w/ Peavy trade, not sure. i tend to think the second Swisher trade doesn’t count due to extenuating circumstances. but for the most part, Kenny doesn’t get ripped off. i imagine there’s an at least somewhat clear and established market as far as that goes.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
The Peavy trade works out in aces in Peavy doesn't tear his fucking labrum.
by Shoeless In SC on Jan 5, 2012 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
Freud was right.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
by Uribe Down on Jan 5, 2012 11:29 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
And here I thought my whoring days had come to a close.
I’m a lonely housewife now, I suppose.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
i'm not sure that's right
even if he produces, i don’t think he would have been a Cy level pitcher, which i think (not sure) is what we paid for.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
About 4 WAR per, no?
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Cy level, or what we paid for?
without looking or being too specific, Cy is like 5+ fWAR. if you happen to remember how our pitching prospects were ranked by BP, BA or (even better) Sickels, i could punch it in my spreadsheet.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
poreda was probably a B+ and carter and russell were probably C.
though one might query whether poreda had done enough by midseason to depress his stock. richard obviously was a major leaguer.
Carter not even C+?
i doubt it matters much, just a little surprised. Poreda was a top 50-100, iirc? call him 2.5 surplus wins. Carter and Russell bring it to 3.5. Richard’s kind of hard to call. another 3.5? 2? Peavy got at least 10 wins worth in salary from ‘10-’12, 3.3 wins per season. if the package was worth only 5 surplus wins, that’s expecting ~5 wins from Peavy per season. that’s an implied 1.5 surplus wins from Richard, which seems at least a bit low for a guy who was an adequate starter when we dealt him. did i miss anything for compensation? Peavy’s buyout should cancel that out at least somewhat. and there’s pretty little chance there’d be any surplus value at $22M.
/back of the napkin
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
no. carter would not have been a C+.
one should also consider that the white sox probably know their prospects better than anyone else, most certainly better than the prospect writers.
at the time of the trade, i said poreda was a reliever and had the stuff to be a closer. i would call that a B. i called russell useless. i wouldn’t even grade him. i called richard a #4 starter. i said carter projected as a reliever who was a long way off. that would be a C.
one might posit that the white sox were even more pessimistic about the package, particularly with regard to poreda and possibly carter. later performance would tend to support that.
B+ to B doesn't really change that much
it’s not a full win of surplus value. a 4 starter would be 1.5 wins per season give or take and i have that as Richard’s total surplus value.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
perhaps i disguised my point.
which was that it is hard to believe that the white sox were unaware that poreda would immediately and suddenly become an absolutely terrible pitcher beginning literally the first day he pitched for the padres.
i think that's probably giving them too much
credit, particularly given Hudson. i think it’s more fair to say they thought he was overrated. a B valuation seems fair to me.
…i get the feeling i’m not going to be thinking this for long.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
fine. overrated, not a major league pitcher, whatever phrase you want to use.
if he was a B on july 31, it’s certainly amazing that he managed to make himself a C+ on october 2.
discounting later results with poreda seems incongruous with your focus on results with hudson.
i don't think it's amazing
that’s what happens to pitchers sometimes. i’m sure the Sox thought he had a higher chance of it, but the idea that they knew/were certain it would happen seems to be taking it too far. if they knew what was going to happen to Poreda, why didn’t they know how Hudson was going to pan out?
that’s two cherry picked cases and they’re not representative and i’m sure the Sox know their prospects better than anyone. i just think we already knocked Poreda down far enough knowing all that. you’re saying what happened with him was basically a certainty and i’m saying it was somewhat less such that he still garnered the grade i suggested.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
let me put it this way.
if i’m in a somewhat uncertain and volatile industry and i acquire four assets, one of which immediately becomes worthless, i chalk it up to the facts of life. if i acquire four assets and two of them immediately become worthless, i’m going to think i got hustled by a guy who has hustled other GMs before.
except for injury and other extraordinary circumstances, true talent doesn’t change particularly quickly. and neither does perception.
your analysis above suggests that for the trade to be about fair, peavy had to produce x wins. that may be accurate based upon what we know. but perhaps not based on what the white sox knew, or thought they knew.
in that case, i'm just not sure on the specifics
did/does KW target GMs that are known/he suspects don’t do their due diligence? it doesn’t seem like a good idea to develop a reputation as a swindler. all of the pitchers in the deal were available to be watched and the Peavy deal in particular gave the Padres an extra-long look at the players they were receiving.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
i'm not necessarily saying he swindled anyone.
this isn’t like trading a player who you know is injured. it’s more a function of player analysis and asymmetrical information. as you say, presumably the padres were quite familiar with the players involved. presumably they got updates from the their scouts to ensure that the analysis they got in may was about the same as at the deadline. presumably they were comfortable with what they were getting in return or they wouldn’t have made the deal. the white sox, of course, were comfortable with what they were sending away. and perhaps that was because they didn’t rate the players involved as highly as the padres did. it is at least quite curious that two players involved immediately imploded.
and saying that the white sox got the better of another GM in one instance, or multiple instances, doesn’t mean they’re infallible or are doing it every time (and, of course, one can query what the padres knew about peavy; it’s not like this deal was particularly wonderful for the white sox). in a recent and egregious example, they blew it on hudson. they didn’t like his arm action and they thought he was a reliever. i questioned that at the time. obviously arizona disagreed, too. simple player analysis that reached different conclusions.
and my curiosity about the peavy deal is not because of how the players involved turned out in the “final anaysis” years later. it’s how a couple of the player involved immediately turned out to be terrible. that just doesn’t happen.
i agree that it's curious
and suspicious, but i’m still not sure that it’s not the case that the Padres rather than the Sox weren’t at fault. i think at least one of Poreda or Carter’s career would have turned out differently had the Sox held onto either.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Hudson seems to be the exception
not the rule. We can argue they should have done better in bringing in initial talent but the White Sox seem to have had a clue their minors has been garbage for some time.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
just to add to the Peavy valuation:
he was worth on average about 4.5 wins per season using a b-r/fg avg (adjusting b-r to the fg scale, which is what i’ve been using) from ‘06-’08.
…basically, i think it’s fair to characterize KW as consistently overpaying in trades, at least since ’08 perhaps earlier. i think Rowand cancels out Danks?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I hope we get Marc Rzepczynski.
Jays made a big mistake moving him to the pen last season.
by mechanical turk on Jan 5, 2012 9:28 PM CST up reply actions
i always liked his stuff and stats too
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
Is this serious?
He went to the Cards in the Rasmus trade last season.
Crap, I forgot about that.
I was upset at the time, too. Probably should have caught that when I looked up how to spell his name.
by mechanical turk on Jan 5, 2012 9:56 PM CST up reply actions
Haha.
Not gonna lie, I’ve always like him too. Thought it was funny that many looked at him as a throw in bullpen arm in that trade.
I have no problem with the article and actually agree with most of it
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
He makes a solid point with the quote from Bell.
Saying it’s about what you do for your major league team that counts. But still, to try to minimize teams like the Rays who have built great systems, that’s just stupid. They act as if there’s something wrong with having a good farm.
I didn't read it like that. How much have the Rays and Royals done. The Rays have had great success
and I don’t think Merkin was taking that away. But you still need veterans as well. Look at the ’05 Sox.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
True, the Rays haven't won a WS.
But I certainly wouldn’t minimize what that ownership group and front office have accomplished. In the end, yeah it’s about championships. But there are other accomplishments that bear recognition.
My problem is, they act as if it’s a one or the other proposition. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to have a winning major league team, a good minor league system and be good at drafting and player development.
i think it gets overlooked that the sox rush prospects through to the team that matters
if we let them develop as long as say the yankees we’d be making lists with beckham, morel, sale, santos, reed, viciedo ect
by ndsoxfan on Jan 5, 2012 9:10 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
While they have rushed some guys...
I don’t think it’s any worse than a lot of other organizations. Even if that were true, it doesn’t excuse their apparent lack of interest in the draft, international scouting and player development.
Sorry, rephrase that.
Lack of interest in the draft and international scouting. And lack of competence when it comes to player development (I can’t honestly claim to know whether or not they feel this is a high priority).
The article makes a note of that
But its a player by player thing… Beckham obviously is an example of what can happen when you rush a player, but a strong counterpoint is someone like Sale. Sale still has a little ways to go (has to prove that he can start, I think he can) but I think the point still stands.
Less pressure on the White Sox Minor Leagues might have meant more Minor League time for the likes of Beckham, Sale and/or Reed. But the White Sox also believe in giving young players a chance for promotion when they are ready to compete, regardless of age or service time, and the players are eager to meet the challenge.
“When things go wrong, everyone wants to have a heart attack and freak out about everything,” Beckham said. "It’s the wrong way to approach things. We have to figure out where did we go wrong and what do we have to do to get better? There’s no spot for negativity and stuff like that.
“How many out of 25 players do you need to be homegrown for it to be a good system?” Beckham asked. “They do a good job of finding guys they want and stick with them. They have stuck with me, and I appreciate that and hope to prove them right.”
Okay, Rosenthal just solidified his position at the top of my list of favorite mainstream baseball analysts.
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
Some dude on twitter brought to my attention that Gavin Floyd is a spitting image of rube waddell. Can someone post the actual pic for me, on my phone
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I always loved this guy.
Now I know a little more about why. He is the love child of Zambrano, Rhubarb, Trooper, and me:
Waddell was unpredictable, and had a habit of leaving the dugout in the middle of games to follow passing fire trucks to fires. He performed as an alligator wrestler in the offseason. He was easily distracted by opposing team fans who used to hold up puppies and shiny objects, which seemed to put Waddell in a trance on the mound. An alcoholic for much of his adult life, Waddell reportedly spent the entirety of his first signing bonus on a drinking binge (Sporting News called him “the sousepaw”). Waddell’s eccentric behavior led to constant battles with his managers and scuffles with bad-tempered teammates, and complaints from his teammates forced his trade from Philadelphia to St. Louis in early 1908 despite his importance to the team and his continued success. Recent commentators (such as Bill James) have suggested that Waddell may have suffered from a developmental disability, mental retardation, autism, or attention deficit disorder (ADD). Essentially, none of these mental issues was either known of or properly diagnosed at the time. Though eccentric and childlike, Rube Waddell was not illiterate (as some sources have claimed). Ken Burns’ baseball documentary claims Waddell lost track of how many women he’d married.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Waddell
We're all here because we're not all there.
Waddell lost track of how many women he’d married.
Too easy.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Zambrano to Marlins
At Last! Crazy plays for insane! PERFECT! A nutball pitcher being managed by an inept handler of pitching staffs! Z is volatile – G is clueless! Marlins might want to schedule some “yard Sales” at their new park just to keep people familiar with the fact that there is a park there at all, because after these two work their magic, interest in baseball may just fly out the window. I hope MB is enjoying all that money because he certainly is NOT the type personality to put up with the load of crap these two will generate! Amazing!
by Hillerich N Bradsby on Jan 6, 2012 1:57 PM CST reply actions
MB doesn't seem to have a problem with Ozzie
Where the white women at?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGQ-ISsDm8M
by parkernutws05 on Jan 6, 2012 10:26 PM CST up reply actions
Remember when you suggested the Sox hire Carlton Fisk as manager?
Why isn’t anyone talking about a potentially great replacement with Carlton Fisk? Maybe he isn’t available, but I’ll bet he would be if the price is right. Moreover, Generally, catchers have long been more successful managers than any other position. Why? Think about it: They are involved in EVERY pitch of the game! Who better? and Who Better than Fisk? Come on JR – wake up before this season ends in total disaster like it appears to be heading!
lots and lots of people have suggested they hire carlton fisk for years.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Really? Who?
Besides a guy who appears to post on the same shit on every single white sox on the internet "Hillerich N Bradsby " I have never heard anyone ever suggest that they hire Carlton Fisk as manager. Plus the statement about catchers being more successful managers than any other position is just wrong.
well maybe not recently i guess... but for the 5 years that followed fisks retirement you heard that all the time
maybe even up until they hired ozzie
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Fisk as Manager
I know personally that Fisk was disliked in the front office.Dislike being a kind term.They would never make him manager of the White Sox.On the other hand he and Ozzie were the best of friends.Maybe there is a place for him in Florida.
ive had multiple interactions with fisk... he's not the most pleasant dude around.
kind of a jerk. he doesn’t really get that rap though. instead people talk badly about frank thomas… who in my opinion is one of the nicest guys there is.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Sometimes one can wonder why Zambrano transforms into another person on the field
off the field, he can be very different
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.

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