Dunn problem was known issue for Guillen before season
by Jim Margalus on Feb 10, 2012 7:07 PM CST
in White Sox News
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PrintWhen Jake Peavy kinda-sorta suggested that Ozzie Guillen quit on the team during an appearance on Chris Rongey's show, Guillen, who wasn't in the States, promised to respond to Peavy with guns blazing upon his return. It took Jerry Reinsdorf's mediation to keep a pointless controversy from spiraling out of control.
Today, though, another member of the team jumped on another radio show and detailed further mismanagement by Guillen. This time, it concerned Adam Dunn. The source said Guillen knew something was wrong with Dunn's swing as early as spring training, and still, Guillen ran Dunn out there often enough to come within six plate appearances of qualifying for the batting title.
The damning exchange as described on The Waddle & Silvy Show:
"[Greg Walker] says 'We have a problem,' I say 'What? Spring training is only a couple of days [old].' He says 'You've got to come out and see Adam Dunn's swing.' I said 'Don't worry about it. We've got a month and a half to get ready, go through spring training. Don't worry about it.' " [...]
"I looked at his swing and I told [bench coach] Joey Cora going home, 'We've got a big problem.' "
This is surprising, because if Guillen really knew what this source is saying he knew, there would be no excuse for giving Dunn 496 plate appearances. Furthermore, it would also negate all the times Guillen said Dunn had to be in the lineup. In the beyond-all-repair state this source described, Dunn was essentially a crippled hitter, except he had no injury to send him to the DL.
Really, what Guillen is being accused of here is worse than anything Peavy said. Intentionally placing a ruined player in the center of the lineup for 496 plate appearances and refusing all other alternatives goes beyond negligence and into a baseball equivalent of dereliction of duties.
Man oh man. Brace yourself for another unseemly situation, because when Ozzie Guillen hears what Ozzie Guillen said about Ozzie Guillen, he's going to tear himself a new one.
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It never seems to stop.
Is there anything else for any of us to say at this point?
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 10, 2012 7:16 PM CST reply actions
It's time to take Ozzie fishing out on the lake.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Feb 10, 2012 7:24 PM CST reply actions 5 recs
Dexter is local.
"Don Cooper, to the O.R! We have a bleeder!" - SkanchoDanza
by homesickalien on Feb 10, 2012 11:32 PM CST up reply actions
Hail Mary, full of grace.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Feb 11, 2012 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
I cant stop laughing at this
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
time to apply for a new sn
"I'm holding out hope Reinsdorf can somehow use his amnesty clause on Rios"
-Duck99
by Hazymania on Feb 11, 2012 8:21 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Interested to hear Jofp's perspective on this.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
If we had just signed a Venezuelan none of this would have happened
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I think Guillen was a terrible manager last season
I made many comments in this place to support that. He also had a two of the worse players in the majors in his roster, and OG failed dismally to manage that hard situation.
I see some fans (I am not pointing at anyone in specific) who judge OG’s overall performance with the Sox with an unequal weight to the 2011 year against the other years. Same happens with Dunn. Baseball like many professions (Albeit some inexplicable exception) punishes mediocrity. That’s why I think Rios, very mediocre player, will be released at some point. If OG was a bad manager, baseball will punish him, and sack him. He’s been managing for how many years? Bad managers have a very short life as manager.
OG is at times arrogant, a loudmouth, and more often than not, a pain in the neck. But he is also a good manager. That’s my opinion. He seems to manage a better team (Let’s face it, Marlins are better equipped than the Sox), and in a tough division. Let’s see how he fares this season. I wish him well. But I do hope Ventura does better than Guillen.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 7:32 AM CST up reply actions
rios won't be released. they owe him too much money.
he will sit on the bench for a few years, if anything.
He will be released....Mark my words
Not this year…and probably not next year. But he will be released before his contract expires. Or will be traded for Mike Pagliarulo’s baseball card..
Maybe something similar to what Tony Pena…an “injury” will put him aside, and we’ll forget he is even there (except the people in the accounting dept of the Sox).
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
i predict he'll have a decent season before his contract is over.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 11, 2012 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
It's possible. I don't think he has the skills for that though.
He is now a mediocre player (certainly not in the past) who does not deserve to be wearing a major league uniform.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
He's not mediocre.
He’s bad.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Tomato...Tomayto...Potato...Potayto....
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
They really don't mean the same thing.
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 11, 2012 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Definition of MEDIOCRE = of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance :
Definition of BAD = failing to reach an acceptable standard : poor
Both work for me. I think Rios is a bad baseball player. I also think he is a mediocre baseball player.
Semantics
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
semantics? what the fuck are you talking about. the two words have different meanings. a person can't be both a bad and mediocre baseball player.
by larry on Feb 11, 2012 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
OK...makes sense. I think Rios is a bad baseball player.
He is a bad player and his baseball performance is of low quality, and adds little value to a team. Because of that he fails to reach or meet an acceptable standards as a major league player.
I didn’t use the word mediocre.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
ahem.
He is now a mediocre player (certainly not in the past) who does not deserve to be wearing a major league uniform.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 10:21 AM CST
by craigws on Feb 11, 2012 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I corrected my stance!
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
I agree 1,000% with that....
I take a mediocre Pierre over a bad Rios though
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Well, yeah.
Because mediocre is better than bad.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Both are "bad" things to have though
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
sigh.
do we really need to provide english lessons on here? mediocre is not bad. mediocre is not a bad thing to have. a third of a major league roster is comprised of medicore players.
I understood...and thanks
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 11, 2012 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
how much % do you have?
that shit has really gotten out of control.
i spent years with the understanding that 100% was all one could give, because were there anymore to be given it would still be included in the original 100%.
then some motherfucker started walking around talking about giving 110%. but instead of us all just calling that guy an asshole and going about our business, we accepted it.
and now some people will drop 150% on you. bullshit.
now you come around talking 1,000%? when will it end? stop the madness.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Feb 11, 2012 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I think it's not a big deal, but I will refrain of using more than 100% to state my agreements.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 12, 2012 8:09 AM CST up reply actions
it was a joke.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Feb 12, 2012 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
Not this year…and probably not next year.
So 2014? Well, of course he could be released in the final year of his contract, although that’s so far out I don’t know how you could predict it now.
It’s worth keeping in mind there’s a non-zero chance the guy returns to being an overpaid but roster-worthy player. I’m kind of rooting for him after some of the hyperbole on this site.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
I won't claim to know what caused 2011 and how likely his comeback is.
Maybe there’s some reason for being more pessimistic about Rios than other players returning from an awful season; I just haven’t heard it yet.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
it's fun to point out the hyperbole on this site. i do it all the time.
but when we’re talking about an outfielder with a .307 wOBA over the past three seasons – otherwise known as 87th out of 92 outfielders – they’re on pretty solid ground. #86 is juan pierre. he signed a minor league contract this offseason.
Rios
If he was our fourth outfielder he would be fine.
If he can still play center he doesn't need to beat .307 by much to be above replacement.
Maybe that’s not the most likely outcome but I don’t see an alternative to finding out. It’s not like that roster spot is in high demand.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
rather the point
is that he can’t play center. in any event, he’d have to be a very good centerfielder to be worth anything. which should be rather evident from the piss poor ranking of an outfielder with a .307 wOBA. the only guy who can get away with hitting that shitty and still be worth a starting spot is frankie gutierrez. the guys who hit that shitty and aren’t very good centerfielders are alternately called “minor leaguers”, “independent leaguers” “fifth outfielders” and “retired”.
by larry on Feb 11, 2012 6:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't say he was worth a starting spot. And I didn't say he could get away with hitting .307.
So if you were GM would you start Lillibridge, Rios, and Viciedo, with Danks on the bench and Rios DFA’d?
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Why aren't you using De Aza?
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
er, first reference to Rios should be De Aza
don’t start Rios and also DFA him, that would be confusing
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
Forth Outfielder
On the bench is what I was saying.
rios is going to start unless they get Cespedes which is unfortunately looking bleaker and bleaker.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Fourth outfielders are normally deemed to be "a deffensive replacement"
Rios defense has come down in the last 3 seasons…I wouldn’t call him “defensive replacement”
Out of 129 OF with more than 790 innings played
- Rios was 115th in UZR among outfielders (Pierre was 123)
- 70th in arms strength
- 90th in RZR
- 98th in UZR/150
At this point, Rios is good for pinch running activities, and I wouldn’t hold my breath on that either.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 12, 2012 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
I am far from an expert hitting coach
But the problems with Dunn’s swing were plainly and painfully obvious to me on August 2, 2011 when I published “Dunn: It’s a swing thing” as a FanPost on this site.
The approach that Ozzie took, obviously, was to keep trotting him out there while trying some things outside of games (such as the minor league pitchers throwing real pitches instead of batting practice pitches) to get Dunn going. I never saw any change in Dunn’s swing or approach at the plate, and the results remained the same.
If Dunn doesn’t change his swing, the results will never change. I hope he has finally learned this lesson and is capable of changing his swing. But I fear he is a completely unidimensional player with a completely unidimensional swing.
Baseball is life.
your argument was basically that he needs to grip further up the bat
and take a few singles.
he will never be that player.
He needs to shorten his swing somehow
Starting with the bat closer to the hitting zone was my main suggestion.
Baseball is life.
by elgonzo4sox on Feb 10, 2012 10:18 PM CST up reply actions
the problem with that approach
is that he won’t be generating the bat speed he had. he won’t even be generating the worse bat speed he had in 2011. he may make more contact but if he isn’t making hard contact, the guy with the .243 career batting average still isn’t much use. this is all about power. if he doesn’t have it, he’s done. you recognized that he wouldn’t have the same power hitting ability. you just don’t seem to fully grasp the ramifications. if he made the adjustments you suggested, he just ends up being a bad player instead of a historically bad player. bad players aren’t rosterable, either.
by larry on Feb 11, 2012 12:25 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
That is not a fun thing to read but it makes sense
When it comes to Dunn next year I am hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.
Money doesn't talk
money screams.
A vision from heaven! I shall indeed compose a rap about deez nutz!
I loved OG for as long as I could
But he is pissing me off everytime he opens his mouth. For me to realize that I wasted a whole summer pounding my fist on the wall for a player who was recognized to be not properly functioning, while the manager knew all along yet forced him down my throat, is beyond reprehensible. As a committed fan, I deserve a manager and his player to be just as committed to their profession. Am I asking for too much ?
Because it took that many times before JR said he could go to Florida
"ass hole thi is the same line up whit leftys you idiot"
by Brush Back on Feb 10, 2012 11:10 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
So is he showing the same swing now?
And will RV handle it any differently. Hard to imagine it being so, but I hope he would.
Also, I just don’t get how this happens. Diminished skills I get, but a guy spends his life hitting for a living, and suddenly ’We’ve got a problem’ means that he’s a lost cause? And if so, isn’t it GW’s job to be able to do more than recognize a flaw – and help fix it?
If his swing “worked” in the not too distant past, and it doesn’t have something to do with his strength, eyesight, or reflexes, then it must be a mechanics problem, no? Mental issues are ruled out if it’s something Walk “saw” in his swing during ST. Of all the items on that list, mechanics seems to be the one that can be fixed the easiest – especially for someone who had the mechanics already. Either Walk was not doing his job with coaching that fix, or AD just being a stubborn prick by not adapting to what’s recommended.
Either way OG is to blame for sending his dumb ass to the plate, but if it wasn’t a shock, then why couldn’t it be a focus early on, and repaired?
by bevingtonsTallBoy on Feb 10, 2012 11:12 PM CST reply actions
if dunn didn't try to change things
he probably would have been thrown under the bus for it (even more than he just has by ozzie here).
From what I remember reading
Dunn was trying pretty hard to fix things. Even the stuff he’s said in the offseason leads that way.
I guess I’d rather believe that Adam was putting forth the effort, but was being stymied by Ozzie. That’s best case scenario here, isn’t it?
Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?
by AirTrafficAJ on Feb 11, 2012 1:52 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Again, hitting coaches do not often have much if any impact on Veteran hitters like Dunn
But Walker did screw up quite a bit. However, its not his fault that Dunn did not hit last year. That one is all on Dunn. I think it is more likely that it is a mental issue for Dunn.
.567 OPS for March/April.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
He hit a home run on Opening Day.
It was all downhill from there.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
cst_Cowley
@TonyBroches No. A lot of guys have messed up swings in spring camp. You hope they work through it. See Quentin in his 2008 camp.
6 hours ago
by onlysoxfaninboston on Feb 11, 2012 1:02 AM CST reply actions
Quentin had 22 at-bats that year.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
let ozzie go ballistic, what more damage can he possibly inflict on the sox without harming himself?
by onlysoxfaninboston on Feb 11, 2012 1:54 AM CST up reply actions
It's just funny that Cowley referenced such a horrible sample size.
That’s like a six game stretch!
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Sample size , gheesh
do you live in your mom’s basement
by onlysoxfaninboston on Feb 11, 2012 2:38 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
That is horrible reference on cowley's part
But he is too ignorant to realize it or willfully dishonest
by onlysoxfaninboston on Feb 11, 2012 2:39 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
He was also rehabbing from shoulder surgery.
Which might make a swing temporarily out of sorts.
by Jim Margalus on Feb 11, 2012 3:08 AM CST up reply actions
he did not have 22 at bats.
you’re not even referring to the number of at bats he had in major league games, let alone games on the minor league fields, so i don’t know where you got that from other than your ass. and considering we’re talking about adam dunn allegedly having problems on the first day – they don’t have games on the first day of camp – i’m not even sure what relevance to cowley’s point at bats in games have.
Well I guess I shouldn't have trusted my source.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/springStats/_/team/chw/year/2008
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Yeah, data searching at 1 in the morning on a Saturday was a bad idea.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
MLB.com now has complete spring stats going back years.
Don’t know if direct links work, but it’s in the dropdown.
by Jim Margalus on Feb 11, 2012 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
I don't see how this changes anything.
Specifically, I don’t see how this makes Ozzie’s trotting Dunn out there any less justified.
it proves intent of attempting to hurt the team.
reinsdorf should sue his ass.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 11, 2012 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
he knew that dunn's swing was fucked, never showed any sign of improving,
and still put him out there the whole season. he could have at least claimed ignorance or something before. the point is, i don’t like ozzie.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 11, 2012 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
So he felt his swing was off in spring training.
So, what would you have done? Benched him to start the season until you felt his swing was on?
Dunn’s swing being off to in spring training doesn’t give me enough reason to say that this guy is going to be terrible all year and I should bench him at the first sign that he’s struggling. Let’s not forget his first game of the season, let alone the first series of the season. I’ll remind everyone here what that was:
13 PA, 4 H, 2B, HR, 3 BB, 2 K. That’s a .400/.538/.800 line for you peeps keeping score at home.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 11, 2012 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
37th sign, or whatever that quantifies...
Makes a lot more sense than benching him to start the season because his swing was off, or benching him at the 1st sign.
I think this whole intent to screw the team over because his swing was off in ST is nonsense.
Do I think Ozzie trotted him out there way too much in the second half? Absolutely.
Do I also think Ozzie and the staff threw him back out there after his surgery too soon? Abso-fuckinglutely
Do I blame Ozzie for giving him a long leash to start the season despite his off swing in ST? Not one bit.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 11, 2012 9:33 AM CST up reply actions
oh no, i didn't mean early in the year.
when it comes to ozzie, and a lot of the times i post, i use hyperbole quite a bit. but it’s just funny hearing this, and pairing it with the teeth pulling of bringing up viciedo. and then all of sudden dunn needs to play every day? i truly believe he did it to rub KW’s nose in the dunn signing.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 11, 2012 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
I am not going to take that seriously
I doubt Ozzie Guillen is some kind of bat whisperer and was able to tell Dunn was going to struggle “once he saw his swing”. Correct me if I am wrong, but Dunn has not really changed up his swing recently. I am sure Ozzie saw him swing the bat at least once before he came to Chicago.
The media loves this shit, if Ozzie didn’t get attention he wouldn’t say this.
While we can disagree with Ozzie’s creditably, it’s difficult to dispute Adam Dunn was broken from the start of Spring Training and his problems spiraled down from there. While ST stats are small samples and anything but 100% foolproof, if one looks into Dunn’s ST stats, he was striking out at a 40% clip, 12% above his ST and regular season norms. From here on the league caught on, exposed him, and the rest is history. It doesn’t take a genius or an Ozzie to see these things, just a deeper look into stats.
Your credibility took a hit when you misspelled it
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Einstein failed math.
(Actually, he didn’t. But Even Einstein couldn’t figure out how to make a woman happy:
Einstein eventually got his wife to agree to divorce him by offering her the money he would receive when he eventually would win a Nobel Prize for one or more of his papers he wrote in 1905 (no lack of confidence there) :-) . Apparently, she must have thought he had a good shot at it too someday, because, after thinking it over for a week, she accepted. She ended up having to wait until 1921, but eventually got the money.
We're all here because we're not all there.
I don't think Ozzie wanted Dunn in the first place...
…and kept him in the lineup to make Kenny look like a fool.
Really hoping for a Dunn comeback.
They'll be lots of comebacks...
he’ll comeback to the dugout after lots of at bats
"ass hole thi is the same line up whit leftys you idiot"
the guy who realized that it's really fucking stupid to support a team but not support the players.
by larry on Feb 11, 2012 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What does this support entail? What do I have to do to comply? Hope? Is that all? Great, I'm in.
Or should I keep saying he is going to turn it around when I don’t believe its going to happen. He wears a White Sox uniform so I’ll verbally suck his cock I suppose. Adam Dunn and his brand can all go fuck themselves. You can too you grumpy sac.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
"Really hoping for a Dunn comeback."
that is what started this discussion. if that is something that is a problem for you, you should seriously reconsider why you are a white sox fan.
craig bought serious stock in the adam dunn corp and is going down with the ship
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
hey, i qualified it with 'for now'.
if he sucks into the end of may then the team will have to figure something out (fuck knows what).
regardless, i can’t justify booing him if he is still giving it his all.
I dont think anybody knows what's going to happen with Dunn
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
This is all such nonsense.
Dunn had to play. Dunn will have to keep playing. There are 56 million reasons he was and will continue to be in the lineup.
As long as he is healthy, he is going to play no matter how bad he is. I love this fantasy world people live in where Dunn gets benched.
by LorenzoBandini on Feb 12, 2012 12:52 PM CST reply actions
For whatever it's worth
I was in Glendale last year to see three games, and Dunn was conspicuous as the only guy in uniform in that dugout who was exhibiting concern about anything. The vibe was completely lax until he went up and came back to the bench. He looked lost and pissed off from day one and the thing that struck me was that nobody, least of all any coaches, seemed to have anything to say about it.
From April to July, Dunn had flattened his emoting, I presume to better match the “whatever” vibe set by Ozzie. When the hardcore booing started to show up, that visibly worried/pissed-off Dunn returned.
The whole pattern says to me he was a guy who was invited into a bubble / to adapt to a lax group attitude and would have stayed there all season if not for the fans letting him have it. Seems to me no work on the problem got done by anybody, except that cheesy go-along-to-get-along ethos that passes for work and problem solving in too many organizations plagued with clock-watchers and apple-polishers…and Miami house-hunters.
by IceColdFalstaff on Feb 12, 2012 4:01 PM CST reply actions
Some of the comments here are just nuts
I’m a Red Sox fan & an outsider to the White Sox, but the amount of hindsight bias here is just breathtaking.
You simply can’t know that a consistent, respected power hitter is going to have a lost season based on two days of spring training. Are we to believe that by day 3 of spring training Dunn’s season was already irreversibly ruined? And that this should have been clear to any manager worth his salt? No? Then what are we talking about?
As someone who had to sit through David Ortiz’s turbulent 2009, I’m don’t buy that it was wrong to give Dunn a shot at working through his problems even if it took more than half a season.
What happened to Dunn might literally be unprecedented, which is why I think it’s all the more unfair to read the history as if it was endowed with a crucial deus ex machina moment where everything could have been fixed if not for the mean old Ozzie Guillen.
by dennet on Feb 13, 2012 12:18 PM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
no. you can't know based on two days of spring training.
but perhaps sometime in those 496 plate appearances you gave him in the ensuing seven months it was the time to, you know, do something other than bat him in the middle of your lineup. or do things like have him pinch-hit in the ninth inning of must-win games.
so it's not really about spring training
It’s really discontent over his crappy 2011 that just kind of irrationally wafts over everything mentioning Dunn.
Though I disagree, I can at least see how a reasonable person might want Dunn benched after the all-star break. What’s ridiculous is becoming consumed with hindsight, and seeing Dunn’s 2011 as being somehow obvious or preventable, and turning it into an issue of Guillen’s competence. You aren’t doing that specifically but it looks like many others are.
by dennet on Feb 13, 2012 2:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
guillen is allegedly an expert. and he claims to have foreseen the problem in spring training.
as the one person with the power to write the lineup everyday, it sure does fall on him to bench dunn a lot sooner.
nobody is saying ozzie should have benched dunn to start the season, but his claims undermine his management when he thought someone was going to fail, the guy continued to fail and at no point in the season did guillen, for the good of the ballclub, take the bat out of dunn’s hands .
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
did Guillen really claim to have forseen
the season Dunn would have in 2011? That’s not a rhetorical question.
by dennet on Feb 13, 2012 3:06 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
did you read the story here? or just the comments?
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
Yes, I read the story
I don’t think seeing a problematic swing in spring training is equivalent to foreseeing a lost season.
And I think sports fans, perhaps more than anyone, need to be alert to the possibility of hindsight bias.
by dennet on Feb 13, 2012 3:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You're talking to people who spent the whole season documenting it
We had the same, “He’ll come around … maybe he’ll come around … he might not come around … he is completely lost” realization.
Guillen got explicit instructions to not play Dunn and Rios as much as he did at the trade deadline. That was at 360 plate appearances, 360 PA where he was given an honest shot to turn it around. When Williams said that, it was an “OK, everybody is now seeing the same thing” moment, and an acknowledgment that Ozzie had suffered through Dunn enough.
And then Guillen ran Dunn out there 18 times in 24 games while the Sox were in contention (.490 OPS!). And when he pinch-hit Dunn for Lillibridge in the ninth inning against Minnesota on Sept. 1. And then he let Dunn hit for himself against a lefty in the late innings against Cleveland a couple weeks later. And then Guillen explained it by saying that Dunn had to be out there because he’s being paid too much to be benched at those moments. That was in direct conflict with what his boss said, and what the best strategy dictated. Those are the middle-finger moments to everybody we’re talking about.
by Jim Margalus on Feb 13, 2012 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
I think that's being held up as an iconic moment
because the Sox fell from 5 games out to 10 games out in the short span of time that immediately followed the pinch hitting incident. And then much further after that. So it became looked at as some sort of turning point, and all the weight of subsequent losses was kind of transferred over to that one moment.
After David Ortiz’s first 369 plate appearances, he was hitting .228/.314/.413 many people “realized” he was completely lost, too. Bill Simmons wrote that Ortiz was done. Many others did, too.
Then Ortiz went .253/.357/.534 and the Sox made the playoffs. Does anyone doubt, even now, that Adam Dunn is capable of .253/.357/.534? And if he did, could that have prevented the backslide and helped the White Sox take the division? Heck even Carlos Pena went .196/.325/.407 in a year the Rays made the playoffs. If Dunn even reached those numbers, it could have given the Sox a shot in the arm to help narrow the 3-5 game gap in the standings they were dealing with? It ended up not working out, but I think it is a far far cry from the issue of competence some fans are making it out to be.
by dennet on Feb 13, 2012 3:34 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Helluva post.
Welcome, by the way. Ortiz and Pena are salient examples and why folks shouldn’t yet pack it in re: Dunn. But I think Jim’s last paragraph should explain the frustration expressed on this site with how he was utilized last September.
We're all here because we're not all there.
I think Jim has a point
re: Williams instructing Ozzie not to play him. I don’t follow the White Sox so I hadn’t heard about it. But I tracked down the quote and read it myself and it does seem pretty clear Williams wanted Dunn benched.
I’m just extremely hesitant to try and reconstruct what happened based on the scraps we get from news articles. Life is complicated.
by dennet on Feb 13, 2012 3:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
no. it's being held up as an iconic moment because it illustrates in a singular moment the assclownery that was adam dunn's handling in 2012.
and, no, ortiz and pena are not salient examples. there are no salient examples for adam dunn. his slash line was .159/.292/.277. not .228/.314/.413. or .238/.332/.462. or .196/.325/.407. their slugging did not fall off the face of the earth. in those 369 plate appearances where many people “realized” ortiz was completely lost, ortiz hit more home runs than dunn did in the entire 2011 season. if ortiz was “completely lost”, dunn was a centenarian in a permanent vegetative state.
Sure they are salient examples.
Dunn is the worst, but he has comparisons. Obviously he was terrible for a longer timeframe and a deeper falloff than anyone else but you can argue that Ortiz (at least the first month-6 weeks) and Pena were within sniffing distance.
I would be interested to especially see if Ortiz’ bat speed was consistent through his 2011 struggles and if he was just hitting in “bad luck”.
We're all here because we're not all there.
the best comparison
is probably Dan Uggla: .173/.241/.327 in his first 348 PA
by dennet on Feb 14, 2012 10:04 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
no. you really can't argue they were within sniffing distance.
because they weren’t. they retained their power skill. adam dunn did not. these guys were better than league average hitters. what the fuck does that have to do with dunn?
You forget - my nose is longer than yours.
Sniffing distance is farther away for me.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Feb 14, 2012 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
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