Ventura needs room to experiment, if he even wants to
Over at Baseball Prospectus, Jay Jaffe is targeting inefficiencies across the defensive spectrum. In other words, he's looking for places where managers have made offense a low priority, even though the lesser defensive requirements should make it an offense-first position.
This time, it's left field. Jaffe takes on the task with the assumption that when the White Sox traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik, they ushered in an era of a speedier, slappier left fielder. However, he finds out that the production of left fielders has been on the decline since before 2005.
It's an interesting trend to think about, although for the White Sox, the answer is pretty simple: Left field is where the leadoff man lives. Ozzie Guillen had a very narrow definition of what a leadoff man should look like, and left field happened to be the one area where Kenny Williams could acquire a leadoffy guy after other leadoffy projects, like Chris Getz, failed. Look at the number of games where the left fielder batted first (leadoff hitter OBP in parentheses):
- 2005: 140 (.338)
- 2006: 159 (.332)
- 2010: 147 (.333)
- 2011: 160 (.323)
And in 2011, in the two games where a left fielder didn't lead off, it's only because Juan Pierre was the DH.
However, having a set leadoff man didn't really help leadoff production. In the the two seasons where Guillen had to change course at the top of the order, he actually got a higher OBP out of the No. 1 spot -- .339 in 2008 and .340 in 2009. Getting enough production after the first option flopped could be a cause for optimism, but the lack of a true, everyday leadoff man prompted cause for concern instead.
(2007 doesn't count, because any season in which Andy Gonzalez leads off 10 times doesn't count. New rule.)
Basically, the White Sox have been happy to settle for less out of left field because the left fielder has been able to also play the not-real position of Leadoff Hitter. There's probably some value in that -- if a manager can pencil in the same Leadoff Hitter every day, it's one less question he and the team have to answer, because the media freaks out whenever a "non-prototypical" guy bats first. Then again, it's hard to figure out what the prototype even looks like when Pierre and Podsednik fit the bill, but Alejandro De Aza doesn't.
De Aza is the presumptive favorite to bat first, which means that the vast majority of leadoff at-bats could come out of left field once again (although let's hope it's center field). Maybe that will work, and it'd be super if it did. But if De Aza gets hurt, or another opportunity presents itself, here's hoping Robin Ventura will give himself the freedom to pursue all options.
One of the reasons I hoped the White Sox would hire Dave Martinez as a manager is because it seems like Joe Maddon's attitude would rub off on him. In late May, the Rays were in a funk, going 2-5 and averaging just three runs over a seven-game stretch. Evan Longoria was a big part of the problem, as he was hitting just .209/.317/.372 at the time, and in the middle of the order.
So Maddon put Longoria in the leadoff spot.
Hitting Longo leadoff today. With him struggling a bit, I want him to take his walks, get on base, hit the ball up the middle. Have fun.
— Joe Maddon (@RaysJoeMaddon) May 28, 2011
If there's a part of our game that's been missing its the walk component. Part of getting better is accepting BBs. BJ, Longo did that today.
— Joe Maddon (@RaysJoeMaddon) May 29, 2011
Over those three games in the leadoff spot, Longoria reached base in nine of his 15 plate appearances, and the Rays scored 15 runs. The move got Longoria back on track, and he returned to the middle of the order afterward. No egos or reputations were harmed in the filming of this episode.
That's the kind of freedom I want to see in the post-Guillen era, because when it came to lineups and roles, Guillen was naturally rigid and restrictive, and he took it to absurd extremes in his final year. With the White Sox taking a very thin roster into battle, their new manager can't afford to scoff at legitimate potential upgrades the same way Guillen did. Fortune favors the bold, and Guillen couldn't have been more tepid at the end.
Had the Sox hired a Martinez type, the fact that he came from a successful organization would offer him a certain amount of leeway to explore the studio space. There's no philosophy of any kind of attached to Ventura, and it's going to be fascinating to watch him try to flesh one out, because it's inevitably going to involve some wrong turns, or wrong-looking turns.
Will he have the confidence to make unorthodox decisions and stand by them? Will he be able to persuade players that he's making moves because he's creative, and not because he's in over his head? Will he even have any desire to be creative? Ventura's low-key nature should help him get acclimated, but his ability to defend unpopular choices will ultimately decide how far his professionalism can carry him.
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Good piece.
Hard to tout Maddon now that he has dark hair. I guess his new contract allowed a dye job to become affordable.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Feb 21, 2012 6:49 AM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
oh well a touch of grey kind of suits him any way
that was all i had to say but it’s alright.
I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.
by thatshortkid on Feb 21, 2012 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
OBP changes
Did Ozzie get more OBP at leadoff in 2008/2009? Yes.
Did he get more OBP relative to league average? No.
In 2008 the league average OBP was .336 and his leadoff hitter was 3 points higher at .339.
In 2009 the league average OBP was .336 and his leadoff hitter was 4 points higher at .340.
In 2010 the league average OBP was .327 and his leadoff hitter was 6 points higher at .333.
In 2011 the league average OBP was .323 and his leadoff hitter was at break even .323.
I certainly agree that a manager should not be content to have his leadoff hitter be a “league average” on-base guy.
So how did the White Sox do with overall production out of the leadoff spot?
2008 10th in AL.
2009 9th in AL
2010 5th in AL
2011 8th in AL
To the point that the Chisox should of hired Davey Martinez. I couldn’t agree more and thank all of MLB for keeping him in Tampa Bay. On a side note, Maddon also inserted Matt Joyce in the leadoff spot for a game or two.
Tampa Bay in terms of OBP over the last 4 years starting in 08 has ranked 9th, 7th, 3rd, and 5th in the AL.
Extremely sloppy comparison but...
for Bulls fans – Robin seems like a Vinny Del Negro hire when we could have had Thibodeau in Martinez.
Like I said, a sloppy comparison and not fair to Ventura, but when you have a guy that could have come from a program like Tampa with the outside-the-organization mindset, it seems like a lost opportunity.
by ThisIsJustBanter on Feb 21, 2012 7:53 AM CST up reply actions
Yes that's very sloppy
In fact that’s just downright awful.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I see where you're coming from on that, however the one thing Robin has over Del Negro
is that Robin was a real good ball player in his day. Whether or not that helps him manage a team in anyway will remain to be seen. I sure hope he doesn’t turn out like a Del Negro hire.
Bulls Season
There is nothing about Ventura that reminds me of Vinny Del Degro
And Martinez and Thibs compare how? Sorry Banter don’t mean to pick on you but that one was from way out in “left field”. Hee Hee I made a funny.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
No need to apologize
I threw in the caveat because I didn’t give it much thought, and knew there were holes, it’s just what the hire felt like to me reflecting on the two situations.
The main similarity to me is obviously the lack of experience (if you can’t see that similarity then you’ve blocked out the VDN years which is fine). The Thibs and Martinez comparison is grooming from an organization and coaches considered to be among the best in their respective sports. Clearly, Thibodeau’s run as an assistant has lasted a lot longer than Martinez.
It was a pretty basic comparison. The (more) sloppy part of it is that it is not predictive of the success or failure of the team or the manager. There are plenty of examples of successful coaches/managers with diverse backgrounds.
by ThisIsJustBanter on Feb 21, 2012 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
Little to no correlation between coaching ability
And level of talent on the field while playing the game.
by 815Sox on Feb 21, 2012 4:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
So that just means the Sox are going to be awesome in two seasons?
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 21, 2012 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
How the hell did I miss this?
Yes!
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
We made out okay. Coaching is very important in basketball.
As long as Ventura gets some players, he may someday be able to wrestle that AL pennant away from Ron Washington, coaching genius.
by MelidoPerez on Feb 21, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
What is the definition of "overall production out of the leadoff spot"?
and before you go and think you have to defend yourself…I am just curious.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
but are you defining production as OBP?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
oh, as for the ranking? Yes
I didn’t want to veer off of Jim’s post about OBP out of the leadoff spot.
Just pulled the league numbers from the leadoff spot from B-ref and sorted by OBP for the “overall” ranking for leadoff hitters.
If we went with OPS
rather than sticking to just OBP the Sox ranked:
2008: 9th
2009: 11th
2010: 12th
2011:14th
But like I said, my comments were solely based on keeping with the theme of the post.
absolutely not
maybe wrong use of the term…
Should of said "So how did the White Sox do with overall production rank with OBP out of the leadoff spot?
Sorry for the confusion. Early morning before a meeting!
got caught up in following Jim
However, having a set leadoff man didn’t really help leadoff production. In the the two seasons where Guillen had to change course at the top of the order, he actually got a higher OBP out of the No. 1 spot — .339 in 2008 and .340 in 2009. Getting enough production after the first option flopped could be a cause for optimism, but the lack of a true, everyday leadoff man prompted cause for concern instead.
He was using the term production based on OBP and I just went with it.
o
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It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Feb 21, 2012 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Bizarro (2:10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6ROXLtorwY
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
i'm helping yoooooouuuu
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Feb 21, 2012 6:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Its an abomination
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Feb 22, 2012 1:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Given Ventura's managerial experience...
(or lack thereof), I am assuming that his closest advisors will have a big influence on how he manages. Ultimately will he be turning to grizzled veteran baseball folks, or will Jonah Hill (prefer the slightly heavier version) be whispering in his ear between games? And will these people change as he gains more experience and becomes more comfortable with the job? Ventura strikes me as an old school guy, but I’m hoping that he’s young enough to be open minded about the job and confident enough to be OK with making mistakes from time to time.
Robin will be fine!
It doesn’t take a genius to manage a major league team. We all do it every day. As long as the manager has the guts to bench a guy when he doesn’t hustle (Rios) or is lost in the tall grass (Rios) he will be respected. Ozzie’s management of the lineup last year was atrocious!!
Pretty sure that I am not managing a baseball team daily
by 815Sox on Feb 21, 2012 4:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
when you are watching the games you don't think ahead to what you would do in this situation?
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i just get a dog and a beer and enjoy the game for what it is.
by larry on Feb 21, 2012 10:47 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
implausible.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Great piece
My concern is that Ventura, a newbie, won’t feel confident/encouraged enough to make a Maddon-like change as early as Maddon did.
I disagree
The man has guts.
1. To charge Nolan Ryan knowing he was going to get his butt kicked. If anybody can think of another player who charged Ryan, I’d like to hear about it. But that was a gutsy move taken for the team.
2. The t-shirts :
I just get the feeling he’s going to do what the f- he wants to do to win.
Maddon is the man.
Case in point: in 2010, he hit catcher John Jason in the leadoff spot 45 (!) times. Talk about an unorthodox leadoff guy. But hey, Jaso had a .372 OBP overall and a .380 OBP when hitting leadoff. Sounds like a pretty sound strategy to me.
Bringing this back to the Sox, hopefully De Aza and Fukudome can provide a pretty nice OBP out of the leadoff spot this year. I am really having a hard time seeing them doing worse than Pierre (OBP-wise anyways).
Jaso.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Feb 21, 2012 11:23 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Damn that came out as Jason when I googled him too.
Definitely typing challended today.
by polodude017 on Feb 21, 2012 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
ha
typing challended today.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 21, 2012 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
I loved that move
I picked up Jaso in an OBP/SLG fantasy league. Don’t usually get that many ABs and that high an OBP from a catcher that cost $1, allowing me to spread money around elsewhere.
by ceverettsdinosaurs on Feb 21, 2012 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
I would be very disappointed if Venchie didn't experiment with the batting order at the very start of the season,
spring training is almost worthless in terms of getting the best batting order assembled by opening day.
The only thing spring training is good for is learning that your expensive DH is about to have the worst season of his career.
White Sox 2012: Helplessly rebuilding?
ha...
a little stroll down memory lane
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/adam-dunn-brings-annual-spring-slump-to-the-white-sox/2011/03/23/AB5knJLB_story.html
"Statistics are about as interesting as first base coaches" Jim Bouton
by Grinder Rule #42 on Feb 21, 2012 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
Lead-off hitter
I don’t think the current team has a true lead-off hitter yet, My gut says De Aza or Fukodome, but I wonder about Rios. Posednik and Juan pierre were only good if they were getting on base. You look at the 2005 season and track Posedniks games and when he wasn’t hitting the team failed. He got off to a great start and so did the sox.
But before you start praising Maddon. Tanner had Dick Allen bat lead-off and Bill Melton Bat second in Fenway one year.
Finally enough Bill James , lets go back to professor Earnshaw Cook. Who wanted your best hitter batting first, your second, second etc, etc.
i wouldn't want my best hitter batting first and on down the line
that would mean frank thomas would come up with nobody on ahead of him. He would have had 40 homers and 52 RBIs
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
That’s only the First time up, You should find a copy of Earnshaw Cooks book Percentage Baseball. He had radical idead, back in the 60’s that nobody paid any attention till Bill James.
how? if you have the worst hitters batting 7,8,9... they aren't likely to get on base for the 1
no matter if its the first inning, 4th inning or 9th inning.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
You can always tweak it a bit
The key is to get the people who get on base more times. When Rod Carew was with the twins was he there best hitter, or for that matter Kirby Pucket 7,8,+9 all all expendables, . Did you really like the thouight of AJ batting cleanup last year.
i liked aj hitting cleanup more than dunn and rios thats for sure.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
last year?
sadly, so sadly yes
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
You kind of contradicted yourself there.
Above you said “hit your best hitter 1st, 2nd and so on” and here you say “your guy who gets on base most”. I could see the second option making a bit more sense, but you’d still have the same problem with Big Frank.
just to get the ball rolling here
fukudome, barring an injury to someone else, is not planned to be a regular in the starting lineup.
also, last year juan pierre was very much not good after getting on base.
also also, what exactly do you wonder about rios?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Agreed On Rios.
I don’t see him really fitting into the leadoff discussion at all.
I could see Fukudome there in the days he’s in the lineup though. I still think he plays a few times a week between the outfield corners and DH (with Viciedo, Rios and Dunn all probably getting a day off occasionally or to avoid a tough matchup). With the OBP he could bring to the table, that should be an asset, provided he’s used correctly.
by polodude017 on Feb 21, 2012 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
i don't see rios fitting into many discussions
except for the discussions about which suck-ass player is most likely to send me into a thermonuclear rage at any given moment.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
by BuehrleMan on Feb 21, 2012 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How about a nice game of CHESSFU?
"I'm holding out hope Reinsdorf can somehow use his amnesty clause on Rios"
-Duck99
by Hazymania on Feb 21, 2012 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 8 recs
The only way to win is not to play
@gpierce112
by joewho112 on Feb 21, 2012 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
I really dont
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
im not saying he's going to be an all star.. or even as good as he was 2 seasons ago
.260/.320/.420
17 homers, 65 RBI, 15 sbs.
something like that.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
this is what i'm hoping for.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 21, 2012 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
good luck with that
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
i put him on my list last year and it's not looking likely that he'll come off of it.
even if he does “well” this year it’s only liable to make me dislike him more.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
sure. can't think of examples right now.
but certain people are so far down at the bottom (or should that be top?) of the list that i can confidently say they will never get off of it.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
.740 OPS ?
hmmm I give him a 1 out 3 chance of breaking .700
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
yeah, i don't see it happening either
unless he has abandoned that ridiculous batting stance. i’m sure that’s worth an extra .80 on his OPS right there.
Following the base logic for the rest of this bizarro thread
since you were right about Rios last year, you’re likely to be right this year…Looking back I was on record thinking Rios would have an excellent season last year. This year I am predicting Prince Fielder to have an excellent season so he probably won’t, you can thank me at the meth-up with a bottle of Johnny.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
lol
How excellent might warrant a wager.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Hmmm.
Um okay.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Hey, it's only 5 months now.
(I close on the house in 2 days – will get you the address after the closing.)
We're all here because we're not all there.
wouldn't you want him to rob the house prior to your closing?
by larry on Feb 21, 2012 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm still really excited to see one of these "meth-ups" in person.
I missed the 70’s be a few years.
Are you going?
If you are you are defintely getting some taint punch. tedium is the medium, man.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I guess I would have to be in town for a game.
Doesn’t happen often, based in DC.
The meth-up is on May 26th vs. Cleveland
My taint punch was a little too sweet last year, this year it is going to be the antithesis. There are always a ton of indian fans at Cleveland series’…their city sucks so bad they had to move to Chicago but they are still mouthy about their piece of shit franchise.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
They really are among the annoyingest
Recent years have made me hate the Twins more, but their fans were never as obnoxious at USCF as Cleveland fans.
Of course the Yankee fans are obnoxious too, but they’re not here as often.
"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473
by NorthSidePaulie on Feb 21, 2012 4:42 PM CST up reply actions
Detroit fans are worse than Cleveland fans.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
by U-God on Feb 21, 2012 4:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
i dispute that.
detroit fans are only bad and yes they can get very bad when their team is good. cleveland fans are dick heads no matter what the indians are doing.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
this
my Twin fan hate is well documented here because their fans kill with kindness. Its an unnatural kindness and respect, completely generated from their deviant brains.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Expect a post on this matter sometime this week.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Don't act like you already had the idea!
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I have a timestamped legal pad in my coffeetable.
Also, the Canadian can verify.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
How am I supposed to trust a Canadian unless she is from Quebec
Flimsy
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
especially with their beady little eyes and flapping heads
to say nothing of their similarity to twain.
I love seasons too. That's why I live in a place that skips the shitty ones.
by thatshortkid on Feb 21, 2012 5:40 PM CST up reply actions
ding ding ding
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I am not trying to take anything away from Detroit fans but Cleveland fans are way worse
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I remember them being terrible from my childhood.
But Tigers fans have surpassed them in recent years.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I think I agree with Rhuby after the reception Thome got.
Especially when contrasted with the O we gave Frank on his first visit to the Cell.
No wonder LeBron shit on them.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Uh no
At least not for me.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I honestly think this may be an age thing.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
You're lumping me in with Chiburb and tdogg!?!
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
More so with KenWo.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
i don't appreciate the ageism that runs rampant on this site.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
says the guy thats right around my age and possibly older. lol
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
We need some solidarity out of the "I remember being at Old Comiskey but not seeing Wilbur Wood play crew"
I mean U-God was having his ass powdered, dreaming about 13 year old cougars when Russ Mormon wore a cursive C. You can google and wiki all you want but you never sat between yellow bars in box seats and smelled the puddles of piss in the LF picnic area.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Feb 22, 2012 1:29 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
very true. the golden boxes. haha.
we never actually had them, but we sat there quite a bit as we enjoyed ivan calderon hitting upper deck shots with 4,500 other people in attendance.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Thermonuclear rage....yes...we should vaporize him with a rage or two of that.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 21, 2012 5:21 PM CST up reply actions
Ozzie didnt let De Aza bat enough against left handers and maybe for good reason
Regardless at this point and with last year’s results De Aza should easily begin the season leading off. Its a no brainer.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Maybe? Really?
This is going to be an interesting year for him.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Feb 21, 2012 11:51 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Maybe Ozzie thought that a .330 OBP was good.
Because you know it’s considered a good batting average and all.
This space is available.
Relative to his OBP as a player it's amazing
Hell it’s about the same as his slugging percentage
@gpierce112
"only because Juan Pierre was the DH."
Man, that was a hoot.
by South Side Expat on Feb 21, 2012 12:53 PM CST reply actions
Do we know how much of Ozzie's stubbornness was due to the media?
I would guess that part of Maddon’s freedom to experiment comes from the fact that Tampa is
a) a small market
b) where nobody gives a shit.
Chicago isn’t Boston or Philly or New York, but the media hounds can be almost as bad. Lovie Smith has been fired in Tribune columns since six months after he took the Bears to their first Super Bowl in 20 years. And certainly once Ozzie knew he was on his way out, he wasn’t going to make any moves that weren’t out of Traditional Fucked Out Baseball Managing 101.
More to the point, I’m not sure that even Davey Martinez would have shown up on day 1 of spring training and tossed conventional thinking out the window.
I believe Tampa ownership/management
is slightly more enlightened than Ozzie re: Saber stuff. Tampa’s guys are really smart and willing to experiment. If you don’t think their management of the (high) draft picks and trades have been some high wire stuff because of their limited budget then brother, you got another thing comin’.
Everyone in baseball is watching Tampa now – and it’s been only since new ownership/management has taken over. The only people who don’t give a shit are their fans because they are all going to die soon and they are picking out caskets and “end of life” plans.
We're all here because we're not all there.
Right.
So if you want to ascribe their success to the forward thinking of the organization, rather than the media, fine. Regardless, wouldn’t it still be difficult for a Maddon clone to come in here and turn everything upside down? Especially with the World Series victory (aided by “Ozzieball”) still fresh in some people’s minds (according to KenWo)?
Who says anything needs to be turned upside-down?
The Sox could have a traditional-looking lineup if De Aza holds up his end of the deal, and that would be fine.
My point is, if somebody comes from a successful organization where managers had freedom to address problems creatively, it’s easy to have conviction and defend unusual thinking (“It worked there — why can’t it work here?”). Take a look at Theo — he’s got the media eating out of his hand, and they haven’t even played a spring training game yet.
Ventura has no background whatsoever, so if he has a plan that’s outside the norm, it’s going to be harder for him to sell it if it’s not an immediate success.
by Jim Margalus on Feb 21, 2012 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
It's that last part I'm worried about.
How much support does Ventura get from his own organization if he tries a well-intentioned, 2008-Swisher-like experiment?
Duuuuuuuuuude
What makes you think he wouldn’t get support?!? Think of all the harebrained schemes Ozzie concocted that they allowed him to implement. What do they have to loooose?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
he's the manager. it would be pointless hiring him if they undermine him like that.
it’d reflect badly on kenny too. he should be even more confident in ventura than he would have been in martinez, or any other candidate.
Yup. And Reinsdorf doesn't make knee-jerk decisions.
I’m not concerned the support structure. I wonder whether Ventura will have developed an internal compass quickly enough to trust his own senses when the first returns are disappointing. That’s independent of Kenny and Jerry.
by Jim Margalus on Feb 21, 2012 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
OK.
I didn’t mean “support” so much as leeway. I understand that you’re not sure if he has the courage of his own convictions, but I wonder about whether he will have earned the trust to continue an experiment if the early returns are disappointing. (Since you brought up Theo, didn’t he try a bullpen-by-committee approach that did not go well and he got blasted for it and it didn’t last too long?)
isn't every bullpen by 'committee'?
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 21, 2012 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
i figured.
couldn’t resist.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 21, 2012 6:00 PM CST up reply actions
Well now that you guys both admitted to being jerks
Howbouta hug?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
again, he will have clearly earned the trust of kenny because he is the manager.
it will be down to ventura whether he reacts to external media pressure. doesn’t seem the type, but then we don’t really know.
The last thing the organization needs to worry about
Is the opinion of people who think “Ozzieball” was the reason the Sox won a World Series (as opposed to things like historically good pitching and home runs).
random joe sox fan is still upset that they canned guillen.
i don’t think anything ventura does (ozzie ball, earl weaver ball, maddon ball) will change that.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
but don't be confused i personally wanted him and ozzie ball out the door years ago
i’m all for sitting back and hitting dingers.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I really hope RV doesn't have a ball
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Maddon experiments because that's who he is
and he works within an organization that encourages that kind of thing.
His freedom to experiment comes from his bosses being smart enough
To recognize the widening gulf between tradition and the advancements in the industry. If he wants to start a guy who gets on base (even if he is a catcher and doesn’t look like Juan Pierre), they understand he is doing it for a sensible reason, whether an old grizzly writer understands it or not.
You know what gets the media off your back?
Winning. If your “radical idea” works, who cares that the media doesn’t like your catcher leading off?
I completely agree.
But you also get a much shorter leash if your “experiment” fails. See 2008 Swisher in the leadoff spot.
Well the thinking behind that experiment was completely correct.
Swisher just happened to slump badly.
That's my point precisely.
Pierre was pretty brutal after a month or so last year, but there was not much talk (and Ozzie squashed what little there was) about removing him from the leadoff spot, let alone the everyday lineup. Swisher only had a very limited amount of time in which to succeed in that role before the experiment ended.
I don't think those two situations are really comparable though.
Swisher has traditionally had a much higher OBP than Pierre. Maybe I’m just not following your logic here.
I'm contrasting them.
Pierre fit the mold of the Traditional Leadoff Hitter, and so his lineup spot was entrenched even while he sucked. Swisher did not fit the mold, so when he struggled he was summarily removed.
He seems to better fit the mold of a Number 9 hitter
imo
"I'm holding out hope Reinsdorf can somehow use his amnesty clause on Rios"
-Duck99
Swisher
The simalarities between Robin Ventura and Nick Swisher are nil.They could be from a different planet.Ventura will make some mistakes.Of that I am sure.He will not make the same mistake twice.That is what I believe.
No one was comparing the two.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Dude won a WS in Chicago
He could do whatever the hell he wanted up to and including telling the media and his gm to suck it on several occasions.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Rios
Actually his life time numbers are pretty good batting leadoff, it’s when he drops off back in the line up.. I t might help him get focused
even better batting second.
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
to be clear
a .333/.364/.577/.940 line in the 2 hole (300 AB sample size)
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
But didn't almost all of those AB's come before his mechanics fell apart?
I don’t think moving him back to the 2 hole automatically makes that go away.
If it did...
then I’d also like to have Frank Thomas bat 3rd again.
by palehose67 on Feb 21, 2012 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
correlation does not imply causation.
obviously. so let’s not waste our time looking for patterns where they don’t exist.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
The whole comment thread is seeped in this
or am I demonstrating this very notion just by saying this?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
haha. exactly.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
when ventura played with the sox...
the sox had some great “lead off” type guys— tim raines, lance johnson, ray durham. a fair number of left fielders in this list though. (# is starts at leadoff)
1991
Raines-150
1992
Raines-87
Sax-55
1993
Raines-102
Cora-38
1994
Raines-47
Cora-27
Martin-24
1995
Johnson-115
Durham-14
1996
Phillips-149
1997
Durham-107
Phillips-33
1998
Durham-149
tony phillips was a wonderful leadoff hitter.
i can’t say enough about that guy. wish we had his clone
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Tony Phillips
I seem to recall him having a drug issue, there was a reason he didn’t stay anywhere to long.
8 years in oakland followed by 5 in detroit?
by the time he started moving around he was 36 years old. that tends to happen to old guys.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Yeah, that Jim Thome.
He was quite the drug addict.
Was?
Once a pickle, you can’t ever be a cucumber again, Joist.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Feb 21, 2012 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Since when are we talking about your face?
by Joist on Feb 21, 2012 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
for that we'd use grape to raisin.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Feb 21, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Whats so wrong with freebasing cocaine?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
well, if you keep doing it for a while, it tends to get out of hand.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 21, 2012 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
It would appear that freebasing cocaine had the opposite effect on Tony Phillips than it has on most people
He was more patient while having smoked cocaine. 1997 was the year he was caught and he had a .392 OBP. Perhaps Beckham needs to freebase more cocaine than he has been in years previous.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
what's his twitter?
i’ll give him a guy.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 21, 2012 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
This is the wrong type of "traffic"
we’d like to drive to this site.
We're all here because we're not all there.
your face is driving a lot of the wrong type of traffic to this site
seriously colin should do a comparative statistical analysis on known coke (soda!) heads and their OBP.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
tim raines had a good one. paul molitor too.
you might be on to something.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Maybe the feeling of paranoia or jitteriness
cause players to just not swing at pitches that are borderline, like an obstruction between the brain and muscles for swinging at garbage.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Daryl Strawberry was above average, Dykstra...
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Keith Hernandez...the list goes on and on...Lonnie Smith...Craig Biggio
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
snuck Biggio in there to see if you were paying attention
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
dave parker had a .339 career.
it was really high in the late 70s and fell off with the rest of his career in the early 80s. so he might be an exception.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Well the Pirate's mascot was selling it in the 70's for chrissake!
It may have been harder to get in the 80’s…lol…Stargell was probably using
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
hmm. did you read the book? i might order it.
it appears i only read books if its about drugs. ron leflore’s biography, nikki sixx diaries, now this one.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Coke heyday
Later 70’s mid 80’s.
Just saying
Yeah I was joking about not being able to get it in the 80's
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Not Pops.
Take it back. Was my favorite NL’er when I was a kid.
We're all here because we're not all there.
Derp
I’m wasting my self-editing powers on the book.
by Jim Margalus on Feb 21, 2012 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
It's OK.
Season starts tomorrow, anyway. No one is really looking now except us idiots.
We're all here because we're not all there.

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