The Ryan Braun Loophole
by larry on Feb 23, 2012 9:09 PM CST
in Analysis
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PrintAs most of you have heard by now, an arbitration panel overturned Ryan Braun's 50 game suspension for his positive drug test from last year's playoffs. Braun did not attack the test result directly (which is extremely difficult to do successfully) but instead attacked the "chain of custody" of his sample. The purpose of the chain of custody is to maintain the integrity of the sample by providing documentation of the control, transfer and analysis of samples. The chain of custody requires that from the moment the sample is collected, every transfer of the sample from person to person be documented and that it be provable that nobody else could have accessed that sample.
Anti-doping protocols go to great lengths to ensure the chain of custody is maintained. MLB's Joint Drug Agreement ("JDA") contains twenty-five pages of instructions for how samples are to be collected and transferred to the laboratory. Examples of this include from which side of the player the collector is to stand depending upon which hand the player is holding the cup, how the security seals are to be placed on the sample and that FedEx is the only permitted shipper.
MLB contended that all the guidelines were followed and the chain of custody was not broken. Braun contended that it could not be proven that nobody else could have accessed that sample. The basis for this questioning was:
According to a source close to the arbitration process, the case turned on the security of a urine sample collected from Braun on an October Saturday night in Milwaukee.
The collector – who is jointly hired by MLB and the players’ union – was to send the sample to an independent laboratory by FedEx. Finding the FedEx office closed, the collector stored the sample, which had been sealed, bagged and boxed and carried Braun’s signature, in his Milwaukee-area home, per usual protocol. The collector returned to FedEx on Monday morning.
Note the "per usual protocol". Under most (all?) drug testing regimens, what the collector did is considered appropriate. As one can imagine, it is not unusual for a drug test to occur on a weekend. It is equally not unusual for it not to be possible to immediately send the sample to the laboratory. As anyone who has shipped via FedEx knows, FedEx offices are not always open. And the JDA explicitly states that the collector can't just put the sample in the dropbox. So what is the collector to do if the FedEx office isn't open or the sample can't be immediately sent on its way?
The JDA lays that out, too.
E. If the specimen is not immediately prepared for shipment, the Collector shall ensure that it is appropriately safeguarded during temporary storage.
1. The Collector must keep the chain of custody intact.
2. The Collector must store the samples in a cool and secure location.
And there's the ambiguity that lawyers make their livings on. What is a "cool and secure location"? The generally accepted practice - which the collector applied here - was to take the sample to his home and put it in his refrigerator. Generally accepted practice, however, does not deter the enterprising lawyer. Braun argued that the chain of custody had been broken because it was unclear if the refrigerator in which the sample sat for two days was "secure". Nevermind that there were no signs the package had actually been tampered with.
And the arbitration panel's independent arbitrator (the only one of the three members who really matters because the other two are a representative from the MLB Player's Association and a representative from MLB, and how they would vote is obvious) agreed with Braun. Despite the twenty-five pages of instructions, the JDA - apparently unbeknownst to the parties - did not adequately address a rather frequent scenario.
MLB released a statement in which it "vehemently disagrees" with the panel's ruling. Travis Tygart, the head of the United States Anti-Doping Agency ("USADA", the official anti-doping agency for Olympic sport in the United States), said the ruling was "unreal" and "insulting" to clean athletes. He confirmed that what occurred was standard. "This stuff happens around the world all the time. They're collected at people's homes after the UPS or FedEx or DHL is closed. The DCO (doping control officer) keeps it with them. These are well-trained people whose job it is to maintain it. I'm stunned."
The ramifications of this ruling will be felt not only in MLB but in every anti-doping program around the world. What will surely be known now as the Ryan Braun Loophole has given dirty athletes in every sport a tool to void a positive test and avoid suspension. Apparently, both MLB and the union are in agreement that the JDA needs to be amended to clarify what to do with a sample in situations like this. No doubt other organizations like USADA are re-evaluating their protocols. Of course, even if the Ryan Braun Loophole is closed, there surely are other ambiguities in the JDA for the clever lawyer to exploit.
Braun will not have a positive test on his resume and he avoids suspension. But is Braun "innocent" as he claims to be?
Postscript 1am CST: Jeff Passan at Yahoo Sports goes through the same analysis I did but his is written and sourced better than mine. Worth a read if you're interested: Link.
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Won the decision - lost public opinion
"ass hole thi is the same line up whit leftys you idiot"
Baseball Fantasy is the only winner here.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 24, 2012 7:06 AM CST up reply actions
Other winners:
Ryan Braun and the Brewers.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
by U-God on Feb 24, 2012 7:39 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I have lots of 'baseball fantasies,' but I don't think that's what you mean.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 24, 2012 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting counterpoint to this, which I read earlier:
by mechanical turk on Feb 23, 2012 9:28 PM CST reply actions
that's missing the point a bit.
he’s arguing procedures weren’t followed. the procedures were followed. that’s the whole point. it was found that whatever was “usual protocol” isn’t enough (at least for this arbitrator).
Calcaterra doesn't miss a chance to call MLB out
even if it makes no sense to. Saying MLB “half-assed” it doesn’t really hold up here.
by Craig Grebeck on Feb 24, 2012 6:22 AM CST up reply actions
I'm seeing differing versions about whether the FedEx location was actually closed or whether the courier (erroneously) thought it was closed.
That would seem to be a significant difference as to the propriety of this decision.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Feb 23, 2012 9:37 PM CST reply actions
If the FedEx office was legitimately closed, then there is no clear violation of procedures, and it's a much murkier chain of custody issue.
If the person entrusted with handling of the specimen goofed, then indubitably there was a violation of procedures. Might be an over-lawyered position, but I think it’s a legitimate difference.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Feb 23, 2012 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
i don't think it makes much difference.
fedex doesn’t ship on sunday. so now there’s a sample sitting at a fedex store from saturday night until sunday night or monday morning, depending upon when packages are picked at that location. if i’m interested in the integrity of the sample, i don’t think i want a sample doing that.
But that's a possibility that the union and MLB contemplated and were apparently OK with it.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Feb 23, 2012 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
i don't think it was.
or at least they didn’t contemplate the ramifications of that. a sample sitting in a fedex facility for 36 hours, in who knows what conditions? that’s why the collectors, including this one, don’t drop them off on sundays.
Shouldn't have asked him to put on the glove!
fcdisbad.blogspot.com
by Carbiner on Feb 23, 2012 9:47 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
thanks larry.
for anyone who doesn’t like the way this situation has turned out i really do not recommend looking to see what they’re saying over at bewcrewball. it’s brutal.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Well
It would be tough to not get excited over not losing your best player for 50 games.
fcdisbad.blogspot.com
their reaction doesn't necessarily surprise me
but if this was a white sox player we were talking about i wouldn’t be excited. i would feel generally the same about it as i do now.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
so if we were the defending AL Central champions...
and paul Konerko was going to be suspended for 50 games… and all of a sudden he wasn’t… you wouldn’t be happy?
id do a cartwheel. and that would be a tough feat for my fat ass to accomplish.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
no, i wouldn't be happy.
maybe i’m in the minority but i doubt i’m alone. does it surprise you that i think that any player that tests positive for a banned substance, even if it is a white sox, should be subject to the rules?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
"the clever lawyer"?
Really, larry? As if attacking the chain of custody required a particularly clever lawyer.
by spengler on Feb 23, 2012 10:10 PM CST via mobile reply actions
agreed on that.
but this is, as far as i know, the first time this type of chain of custody challenge has been made. as i pointed out in the post, this is a standard practice that has been going on for years and years. it really changes the paradigm for drug testing. what to do for collectors who travel to the boonies to test athletes? standard practice said putting it in the fridge at the hotel you stay at was fine. out the window now. now the collector is going to have to carry around piss with him, likely from multiple athletes, for days? are they going to give collectors laboratory level secure refrigerators? install elaborate security systems in their homes? confine collectors to their homes? hire security guards?
I'm sure if MLB wants to pony up, there are plenty of law firms or audit firms that will happily send associates around the country with a piss jar and a playmate cooler.
Slightly facetious, of course, but these are problems that can be solved by throwing money at them. MLB has plenty of money to do so if they wish.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Feb 23, 2012 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
that's wonderful for mlb.
what about usada. what about when athletes are in other countries and are being tested by, say, the australian anti-doping authorities. what about athletes training in the hinterlands of morocco. this isn’t a baseball issue. it’s any sport subject to testing issue.
Do you really think that no one has ever made this argument before in other settings?
I can’t believe that this is the first time that a chain of custody argument has been made in this type of proceeding (outside of MLB). To be frank, I’m not familiar at all with the rules or regulations that may cover those procedures.
by FlyingSpaghettiMonster on Feb 23, 2012 11:10 PM CST up reply actions
i said this type of chain of custody argument.
again, the collector wasn’t just making this shit up as he went along. what he did was standard practice. it’s probably been done thousands of times by collectors all over the world. i had a sample in college that spent the weekend in the collector’s fridge because i gave it at midnight on a saturday in the middle of iowa. he told me what he was going to do. and my sample wasn’t the only one taken by this guy. i suppose it’s possible that a positive sample was not one of those samples that was treated in this manner. but the odds say no. again, i’ve never seen this particular argument made. it’s possible it was made somewhere – some proceedings, like this one was supposed to be, are never made public. lawyers and others who actually do this kind of stuff regularly may have heard about any such cases. but the incredulous reaction from the head of USADA suggests to me this is novel.
What now?
Testings only in the mornings of Monday through Thursday? More home runs on weekends? Seems like a huge loophole to close, as you mentioned above.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
could it be
that the head of the usada was incredulous at the arbitrators decision rather than the argument being novel or particularly impassioned?
by notoneyguillen on Feb 24, 2012 12:22 AM CST up reply actions
anything is possible.
if that’s the case, then i would simply amend it to say this argument has never before been successful. as the head of USADA said, synthetic drugs don’t magically appear in urine because it took 48 hours versus 20 minutes to get to the laboratory.
This one independent person's decision
does not set any precedent for the drug testing policies of non-MLB entities.
Yes it would be bad if other entities made the same decision. But I find that highly unlikely and they are not going to give any deference to this one person’s decision that relates to the strict wording of MLB rules.
Or, instead of
Changing so dramatically, coming up with crazy protocol, what if the outcome is to rewrite sections of the agreement to include the hotel/ home fridge for two days as acceptable practice? Seems as though if that were detailed in this case, the lawyer would need to look elsewhere for a loophole to exploit. and maybe other doping agreements include such language already.
by bevingtonsTallBoy on Feb 24, 2012 6:36 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Did you see Will Carroll?
Quit calling Braun decision a technicality, media. It was decided on science.
They showed the problem point by point, not only that it was bad result, but how it happened.
The Braun decision was based on HOW the sample was corrupted. Panel was shown exactly what happened, why result was invalid.
Repeatable result showed exactly how Braun’s single test showed positive. Arbitrator agreed. Simple, isn’t it?
i did.
and until he publishes his article, i don’t know what he’s talking about. and until the arbitrator publishes his decision (will it even be made public?) we don’t know what he based his decision on. the evidence carroll references may have been presented to the panel. that doesn’t mean the arbitrator relied on it in reaching his decision. carroll is the only one talking about this. i would think that the braun camp would be telling everyone about this if it was “science” that showed that the sample was actually corrupted, meaning it wasn’t really a positive test at all.
Wouldn't be the first time he talked out of his ass under the cover of "science."
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 24, 2012 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
Talking out of one's ass IS science!
by Jim Margalus on Feb 24, 2012 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
"That wasn't a fart, I was clearing my throat".
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Are there any legitimate issues surrounding the biochemistry?
Obviously, Braun won on a loophole, but is it at all possible that storing the urine in an uncontrolled environment could affect the sample pre-testing?
I know nothing about biochemistry, but it at least seems reasonable that there might be a possibility of chemicals/enzymes reacting differently in uncertain conditions that might possibly cause a false positive.
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 23, 2012 10:46 PM CST via mobile reply actions
It's possible, but there are a lot of variables in this.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I have no idea either...
and I think without some expert opinions on the matter the arbitrator decided to rule on the plausibility of corruption. That’s my thought, at least.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 23, 2012 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
Not an expert in in biochemistry by any means...
There may be a chance under certain conditions.
But it seems pretty unlikely that storing a sample in a fridge, per standard protocol, would trigger chemical reactions that lead to that kind of testosterone level.
by Red Line Trane on Feb 24, 2012 8:48 AM CST up reply actions
I just got done celebrating the decision by shooting roids into my own ass
I got them from the high school kid next door, he said they are the good ones. I just hope the milk I give to my son is safe. Hurray MLB and Selig, hurray.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
by Rhubarb on Feb 23, 2012 11:03 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
what a bunch of hypocrites
they ignore steroids use and rake in the money and then they blame the players and kick them out of the hall of fame and baseball in general.
NAOPOS
Better late
Than never
GET TO THE CHOPPA!!!
by hoosier3 on Feb 23, 2012 11:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Passan says chain of custody was not followed
Sources: Braun sample sat over the weekend in FedEx shop. Wasn’t delivered until Monday. Chain-of-custody argument from lawyers won case.
linky here
sorry if this was answered elsewhere
but did Braun definitely test positive in both tests? and do we know false positive rates on those tests?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
both his A and B samples tested positive.
i remember reading the rates when the news came out back in november or whatever but i don’t know where.
I'm really hoping the Carroll article will have this data.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
but no way is MLB so dumb that their false pos rates and samples per test
don’t mesh up with the significant number of tests they have to do though right?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
what are you asking?
there’s always going to be some margin of error
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 12:12 AM CST up reply actions
He's asking about the sensitivity levels of the tests they used.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
oh...
braun was busted for levels of exogenous testosterone and an extraordinarily high ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. The first test, from what I’ve read, is very difficult to gather conclusive evidence from given the nearly identical structures of exogenous and endogenous testosterone. Basically there’s lots of room for error.
I don’t know how one could explain away the high t:e ratio though. The allowed ratio is 4:1. His was reportedly 20:1. From what I’ve gathered, that’s a huge gap.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 12:33 AM CST up reply actions
there are 750 MLBers, all of whom are tested twice each season, plus playoffs.
if the false pos rate is 5%, that’s a problem.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I don't think we will ever see that info
also if you take this guy’s word for it then you don’t just have false pos rates, you have rates for false pos not being detected since it appears every pos result is re-tested and compared to controls.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 12:45 AM CST up reply actions
i'm familiar with the process
i’m just wondering at MLB’s competence. i assumed they are, but i’m interested to know more about their process. they have to run a lot of tests. that requires really good testing procedures. it’s a fun stats problem.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
scratch that
it’s 40 man rosters get tested, so 1200.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
well now my curiosity is further piqued
again i assume they’re competent cuz there’s no way that me and a little multiplication are gonna call into question the whole dope testing industry.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
is a false positive consistently reproducible?
in other words, would that test always produce the positive result for that particular sample? if not, even in the case where he says even a .3% error rate on the 2nd test would result in a player a year getting popped, wouldn’t they just run the test multiple times?
that's why the specifics matter so much
if they subdivide the sample 8 times as in Shoeless’ post re: cycling, you get more times to get it right…but there are such things as false negatives too. it can become convoluted very quickly if the test isn’t insanely accurate. hence my interest in the specifics. again, i assume they’re on the level. it’s just fascinating to me to see how much goes into the seemingly simple task of figuring out what’s in a bucket o’ urine. so to speak.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
and since the specifics matter
i’m a bit annoyed with Will Carroll’s hand waving. false positives may well be a red herring, but he doesn’t provide me (or Jaffe, obvs) with a ballpark figure or methodology or insight into the tech. maybe that was in his book or a different post, but he didn’t link to it. that said, i’m sure larry would say if it really meant so much to me, i should track down my own links. and he’d be right.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I don't know exactly how the test are done
But I presume they use HLPC or gas chromatography methods. They are extremely precise. The only way they fail is that the sample is contaminated either before it arrives to the lab or because incompetence of the lab technician.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 24, 2012 6:25 AM CST up reply actions
Or that the test comes up with a false positive.
There is no such thing as 100% sensitivity.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I wish we lived in a world where common sense was more common.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
jeff passan pretty much goes through the same analysis i did
just written and sourced way better.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-passan_ryan_braun_appeal_drug_program_selig_022312
by larry on Feb 24, 2012 1:20 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
"But one of these days this bright young man is going to invent a peeing tube that stretches from the bathroom to the testing lab."
A deleted scene from “It’s a Wonderful Life”
White Sox 2012: Helplessly rebuilding?
My question is
What different does it make that the collector takes the sample home or to Fedex? If the whole issue here is that the sample is presumably to be tampered at the collector’s hands or possession (whether at his home or in the road to Fedex), how come that possibility is vanished if the collector heads up to the next Fedex office rather than home? Isn’t this why samples are sealed? Or is the sealing method easily corruptible? Then why bothering sealing?
For the information I collect here with larry’s article and Passan’s, and ESPN, it seems the arbitrator exercised very poor judgment.
Can anybody imagine how is Braun gonna be mocked in the stands of stadiums such as the Busch stadium or Great American Ballpark? Just imagining the banners against Braun that fans of St. Louis are gonna make…..it won’t be pretty.
Btw…larry you have a typo in provavble above (1st par).
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
Oh I think its rather important that protocol is followed with "evidence"
Poor judgement would be ignoring that.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
Evidence of what? Everything is circumstantial.
The only fact appears that the performance-enhancing drug policy’s 18 175 word guidelines need to be revised.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 24, 2012 7:09 AM CST up reply actions
Huh?
The sample. Protocol wasn’t followed.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
For what I read, I was under the impression that the protocol followed is standard in all sports
It is just poorly stated in the MLB PED Drug Policy guidelines.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 24, 2012 7:23 AM CST up reply actions
there is no protocol that lets a collector
take a sample home and leave it on his counter for 2 days.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I'd read more than just Passan's article
which for me is a bit jaded to say the least.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
This is just something else.
Btw…larry you have a typo in provavble above (1st par).
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
You can't blame for mispelling mispellings....my autocorrect can correct those.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 24, 2012 7:49 AM CST up reply actions
Psst
Glass houses, stones something like that.
This space is available.
My errors are more in the grammatical side than in the orthographic side
And you missed my point, I was merely pointing it out, not gloating at it.
larry’s grammar is second to none among posters in this board. That’s why I said he had a typo.
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 24, 2012 5:36 PM CST up reply actions
*orthography side
ooopss
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Feb 24, 2012 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
Would Alanis consider that to be an example of irony?
This space is available.
What a joke.
I really thought MLB was making positive progress on the whole drug issue too.
The one small positive I’m taking out of this is that at least MLB wasn’t trying to sweep this under the rug. It’s sad to say, but I’m happy they at least stood up and said they were against this. Would be easy for a league (cough NFL) to just slap him on the wrist and put him back out there to make them more money.
Call me cynical but the MLB saying one thing and thinking another is not out of the question
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
yeah the first thing i thought of was that mlb would want to protect the NL mvp for image reasons.
maybe that’s simplistic thinking though.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
You would think they would want to uphold the integrity of their drug testing program
but their track record isn’t squeeky clean on these matters. I understand Selig did not make the vote but he has influence. His ties to Milwaukee are obvious and he is probably enamored with Braun. It could be that they figured common public perception would be that he was exonerated from any wrong doing and everyone can just move on and be happy.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
i call cynicism realism in a lot of cases.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
The problem is I have no background in the legal or biochemistry side of this issue
my only background is in cynicism so my argument well undoubtedly be destroyed
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Good point.
I guess I just want to believe they’re doing the right thing for once.
by polodude017 on Feb 24, 2012 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
larry, ignore my email. I hadn't read this yet.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
why the hell is fed ex the 'exclusive' shipping company anyway.
did they score the coveted “Official Piss Transporter of Major League Baseball” endorsement?
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 8:56 AM CST reply actions
I think UPS pissed their opportunity away.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 24, 2012 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
It's more that MLB has something brown can do for them.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
by Uribe Down on Feb 24, 2012 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
thanx larry
"Statistics are about as interesting as first base coaches" Jim Bouton
by Grinder Rule #42 on Feb 24, 2012 9:05 AM CST reply actions
invalid test
the test appeared to be questionable on several levels…the purported result was reportedly incredibly high; much like blowing a .98 on a breathalyser…the fact that the test was excluded on a threshold evidentiary objection meant that the ultimate test result didn’t need to be attacked and probably overturned…add to this Braun"s 27 prior negative tests, his year to year consistency rather than any sudden improvement, and the fact that Braun’s appearance is like the “anti Barry Bonds”, and you have pretty good evidence that the test was flawed…It would have been better for Braun if he had won on the merits rather than procedurally but I think the right result was achieved.
How do you explain the presence? Piss isn't going to chemically react into an extremely high level of testosterone magically.
Under your view it seems to me like you are suggesting someone tampered with the piss and put testosterone in it or that whoever tested his piss did so in an unprofessional manner.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
reply
all males have a greater or lesser amount of testosterone already in their systems
this is true
but scroll up. his was an issue of ratio of t:e. an abnormally high level that doesn’t appear to be achievable without help from what I’ve read.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
I've read that he was double the t:e ratio that is required to get pinged on this
the ratio needed for suspension is 4:1 in the MLB. International doping agencies require a 6:1 ratio…so if Braun was at 8:1 that is insanely high by MLB standards but not too much higher than international standards. This is all conjecture though because all we have is hearsay and no hard facts, probably never will.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
just read Passan's article and he said he was at 30:1
does anyone know if this is possible or if anyone has ever tested this high?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I remember when the results were first released, sources saying that was absurdly high.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
wow, I was pleased with the Contador decision because I don't like the cut of his jib
but was disappointed because it gives fuel for cycling haters
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
well there you go then
the only doubt that I had in my mind whether he took steroids was if his ratio was just inexplicably high.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Also, the second test was done by WADA in Montreal using mass spectronomy testing
they found a synthetic steroid.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I'm not sure I agree with this guy's conclusions...
but he explains the issues with the isotope synthetic testosterone test. His references at the end are helpful, too.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
Could have been from the left over meatloaf sitting in the guy's fridge.
Or from the stockpiles of testosterone Fed Ex drivers are know to carry on hand.
This space is available.
Without seeing Das' reasoning, this is of course all conjecture.
But after a cursory reading of the JDA and the latest version of the USADA’s Olympic protocol (2009 was the best I could do, though I don’t know if there’ve been amendments since), the JDA rather conspicuously excludes reference to protocol used by other entities engaged in this type of testing. The USADA protocol, for instance, specifically references the code followed by the International Federation and National Governing Body, and provides that the USADA code shall take precedence in the event of a conflict. The JDA makes no reference to any other set of rules.
And to that end, I don’t necessarily think Das is out of bounds if he views MLB’s policy as an intentionally stand-alone set of procedures. While the chain of custody argument hasn’t flown under the USADA’s agreement, I don’t see how that binds Das in any way in interpreting the JDA. Certainly there was nothing preventing him from considering how another body would’ve handled the argument, but if MLB and the Union took it upon themselves to create a testing policy comprehensive enough to require the tester and his chaperone to wear only slacks and a polo or button up shirt (“Please DO NOT wear jeans, t-shirt or hospital scrubs”), but didn’t include any reference to any other systems or procedures observed elsewhere in the sporting universe, I think it’s a resonable working assumption that MLB had every intent of being on its own here. (And, frankly, given the…err…let’s call it reluctance of MLB to even implement a policy until its hand was forced, that seems even more likely to be the case.)
If MLB and the Union wanted to be bound so that Tygart’s claim that this particular custodial sequence “happens all the time around the world” would carry weight, they could’ve easily made reference to the procedures that have ostensibly led to that conclusion. This is, after all, THEIR drug policy.
(Not defending Braun’s test scientifically or anything, of course. I just don’t get this sudden “But everyone else says this is ok!” argument when the plain language of the policy doesn’t invite everyone else to matter. And hey, I learned MLB players can smoke weed under this policy and not get suspended so long as they pay out the ass and don’t get arrested, which: dude.)
I would be hesitant to jump to the conclusion
that we have all the facts about the arguments made or other reasons fort the decision. Surely Larry is aware of the plethora of cases that were decided on procedural issues but which had other possible grounds on which to base a ruling that weren’t addressed. All we have are leaks from “sources close to the arbitration.” Just because the technicality is the reason leaked, doesn’t mean there aren’t other reasons, like the herpes thing that has been mentioned.
by ceverettsdinosaurs on Feb 24, 2012 9:53 AM CST via Android app reply actions
The herpes thing is bullshit.
Even if he had herpes, that’s not how Valtrex and other herpes drugs work. Same with the idiots claiming it could be a result of erectile dysfunction pills.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
The fact that his lawyers didn't attack the result of the test should tell you enough.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 24, 2012 9:58 AM CST reply actions
It tells me they didn't have to attack the result.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I look at it exactly the opposite, that they thought they wouldn't be able to win on those grounds.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 24, 2012 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
what makes you think they didn't?
unnamed sources speaking on condition if anonymity. lawyers make every argument, even contrary arguments. if any one argument is successful, you win. regardless of whether that is substantive, procedural, or a “technicality.”
by ceverettsdinosaurs on Feb 24, 2012 10:08 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
that's not really how things work. the lawyers were trying to achieve a judgement.
they took the route they most confidently felt would give it to them.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Feb 24, 2012 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
I'm talking only about the court of public opinion, I think what his lawyers did is technically brilliant.
But it doesn’t change, in my mind, the idea that Braun is a PED user.
To my knowledge, certain things were not known.
-James Murdoch
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Feb 24, 2012 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
The court of public opinion argument doesn't follow the logic of your original post here.
Attorneys represent clients to attain the client’s desired result. They don’t give a fuck about the court of public opinion; that’s a problem for Braun and his PR team. The tact his attorneys took was designed to keep him on the field. And it worked. The end.
The basis for the court of public opinion thinking he’s a juicer is the positive test itself, not that his attorneys (allegedly) were able to get it tossed on procedural grounds.
by dr. lingerie on Feb 24, 2012 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
I agree he's been convicted in the court if public opinion
but its an uninformed court that tends to jump to conclusions based on little evidence.
by ceverettsdinosaurs on Feb 24, 2012 10:10 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
This just in
Milwaukee trades Braun to the Tigers for some candy, lack of 50 game suspension suddenly gives the almost sealed paper division.
Tigers go on to 3 world series titles with the best 3-4-5 in the league.
fcdisbad.blogspot.com
never really watched too much of braun.
from what little i’ve seen lately, he has a long swing and even when he hits it off the end, that ball frickin carries. not a good comparison, but it reminds me of when royce clayton was hitting opposite field dongs.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 11:18 AM CST reply actions
I'm surprised more people aren't upset that this whole process ultimately came down to one man's decision.
The MLB rep is of course going to vote guilty. The union rep is of course going to vote not guilty. Why only leave the decision up to one person? Why not have three impartial arbitrators?
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
because no one wanted to suspend the NL MVP for 50 games
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
Same reason most non-jury trial proceedings aren't done en banc?
I assume the idea is that the one person is expected to have a high enough degree of credibility that adding more people wouldn’t do anything to further qualify the decision.
Just speculation though. I humbly defer to anyone with greater insight. [/obligatory preemptive larry caveat]
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
It just feels like having the union rep and the MLB rep vote is a farce.
Everyone knows what those two are going to say.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
i get that. and granted i never was apart of a union
(the school i taught at was private and we didn’t have one)
but why would the union automatically vote with the player? is it this way every time? it seems to me most players in the union wouldn’t be happy if a guy is a known user and the union voted for him.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Don't remember where I read it last night, but apparently the Union rep has never voted against the player.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
the union's job is to protect the player
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Feb 24, 2012 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
thats what i'm saying.
wouldn’t it be the union’s job to protect the interest of the majority of players?
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
here's the best way i can explain it.
i’m going to use a school setting because that is where my best understanding comes from.
as a math teacher, all the students need to learn the material in the classes leading up to where I teach them. if we had a teacher doing an awful job (making my job more difficult) and the school wanted to fire this other teacher, my union would still fight for this teacher’s right to keep his/her job. is it in the best interest of the school? No. of the other teachers? No, as it is making my job harder. However, this teacher pays union dues and therefore gets union protection.
I don’t agree with this process, but it keeps the union safe from either playing favorites or having to take a stance on issues.
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Feb 24, 2012 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
ok thanks.
i know in a school setting that would be the case. plus this would be a little bit of a bigger case than a teacher just not doing his job.
what if a teacher fucked with the standardized tests. would the union back said teacher then? i would think they wouldn’t.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i believe there are exceptions in teaching
certain issues they can say “we dont have to defend that” like extracurricular activities with students and i’m guessing most things that break the law
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Feb 24, 2012 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
FU.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Feb 24, 2012 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
is this for being a teacher in a union?
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Feb 24, 2012 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
u isn't for you.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
this makes more sense now
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Feb 24, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
if you consider the player's union the voice of the players
then why would players vote against themselves?
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
because most of the players voices would be saying "fuck that guy he's obviously a cheater"
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
I disagree. It'd be in their best interest to fight the system (the MLB)
After all, how often does MLB have the players best interest in mind?
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
Why would "most of the players" say that
when his salary is helping to up the major league minimum and the salaries of Braun’s peers.
Unions are invested in pushing forth the agenda and players interests. Those interests are laid out in the unions by-laws. Part of that includes insuring that the players get the most money they can. Ultimately it boils down to that.
by notoneyguillen on Feb 24, 2012 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
braun is taking a big hunk of the salary pie and may have done so while cheating
which is costing the players who have done it clean.
i don’t know. i was just wondering if it was a certain thing the union would vote with the steroid abuser.
i guess it is.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
what were all the "clean" players saying for the last 20 years
about the ones who were cheating?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Because it's not costing the players money
Players are only pissed at Canseco because he outed players and threatened their future income.
by notoneyguillen on Feb 24, 2012 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
How is it costing players who do it clean?
Players make more based on comparables both through FA and arbitration.
by notoneyguillen on Feb 24, 2012 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
he's also responsible for revenue growth
the money braun makes in no way necessarily gets distributed to everyone else
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
True
However the point I was making was that in arbitration and FA, agents and teams will use his salary as a model to go off of. The Players Union wouldn’t want that to be fucked with, so I can see how protecting PED users is necessary.
by notoneyguillen on Feb 24, 2012 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe it's just so that both parties symbolically have buy-in by casting votes that cancel each other out.
a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee
if thats the case, there needs to be more arbitrators
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
nonpartial, that is
"Rhubarb, if you wouldn’t mind, ram your taint into your monitor as hard as you can." - joewho112
On a brighter side...
anyone have any news or reports from ST? Anything I can read into and get way more excited about than I should?
I saw Sale apparently "put on a pound or two".
And Peavy apparently lost some weight to lessen the strain on his ankle.
by polodude017 on Feb 24, 2012 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
And apparently Bruney lost some weight.
But who cares.
by polodude017 on Feb 24, 2012 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
yeah
he shaved his beard
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
braun did his presser...
basically said the guy who collected his sample fucked with it. questioned why the guy (who received the sample at 430) didn’t drop it off at fed ex which was open til 9 and decided to keep it through the weekend until 1:30 on the monday (even though fed ex opened at 730)
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
said he doesn't have an std.
said the system is fatally flawed.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
all i can think of is i hope dunn starts taking the juice.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Conte's tweets worth noting...
The test collector watched Braun pee in the container and it was sealed. Both A & B tested positive for testosterone plus CIR confirmation.
My Opinion. Braun’s people are blowing smoke. Both A & B sample positive w/ CIR confirmation. MLB “flawed” technical policy will change soon
Also dismisses claims that Braun offered to take DNA test, says Braun backed off.
by Craig Grebeck on Feb 24, 2012 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
Braun
Although he dodged the bullet for now, he’s going to have to behave himself, which could likely result in a drop-off in performance.
For example, let’s say the expectation is that he’ll hit 38 home runs and then he only hits 11. Sure, it seems impossible, but you never know.
"I wouldn’t say I’m hitting five days a week…some weeks we won’t go at all." – Adam Dunn on his preparation routine for the 2012 season (1/24/12)
I agree with their ruling.
I don’t believe necessarily that his sample was tampered with, but it could have been. I also don’t know whether the sample would be enhanced or diminished if it wasn’t stored properly. That the testers go through so much trouble to make sure that the sample is stored in refrigerators within a certain temperature range makes me believe that contamination is possible if those measures aren’t taken.
again, like larry says above,
the fact that the sample may have been sitting around doesn’t explain the prescence of synthetic testosterone.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I'm not sure why anyone would agree with the ruling unless they didn't care if people took steroids in major league baseball
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I just told you why.
The testers fucked up. They left open a little window of doubt.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 2:14 PM CST up reply actions
They didn't fuck up, they did someting that is common practice in dope testing
the process just wasn’t included in the 18,000 words. It didn’t say they couldn’t store piss in the fridge. The whole thing is a sham and makes me hate the MLB and the players-union. If you’re going to be serious about doping get your shit together. Now Braun thinks he is some sort of hero/victim, its bullshit.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
that and I am almost 100% certain that Selig is delighted about how this all turned out
not delighted about it happening but delighted about how it ended
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I think leaving it at one's house for two full days instead shipping it is a fuck up.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
here's the thing about that.
it would have been at a fedex office for two days. where would you feel more comfortable having your sample during that time: at the house of a guy whose sole job it is to ensure the integrity of that sample. or in an office with unknown conditions and a bunch of high school dropouts roaming around.
but larry I'm sure he loved having piss in his fridge
and if he could have kept it there another couple days he would have. Joking aside, for people to assume that this person would want to tamper with Braun’s piss is ridiculous. Its not like the MLB doesn’t do background checks on people and its not like this guy didn’t like being employed and have his reputation in tact.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
FedEx wouldn't know who's sample it was.
I think there’s a reason why FedEx does their shipping and I suspect it’s because they do a good job of handling medical-related shipments.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
then why is it not common practice to leave it with FedEx when they're not
delivering?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
and i think there's a reason the collector has his job.
because he does a good job of handling samples.
if you’re suggesting the collector is corrupt, since he’s the only one who knows whose sample it is, that’s a larger problem that probably isn’t addressable in a JDA.
the seals were on this sample. it’s unlikely in the extreme that it was tampered with by anyone, let alone the collector. the concern i would have is not tampering directly with the sample. it’s what conditions the sample is being kept in. random fedex office with numerous packages versus collector’s house with a few samples. i know who i think will do a better job ensuring the sample is kept in the best possible conditions.
ESPN reports that he did it on the side, part-time.
The individual who collected the sample from Braun, sources say, is a part-time MLB worker. He collects the samples as a side job. His day job is in a hospital’s physical therapy department
and Braun mentioned that he allowed his son to be there which broke protocol and confidentiality. If the guy is doing this job on the side, and he’s careless enough to allow his own son to be there for this process, then I can certainly see him not doing a good job of making sure it was kept in the optimal conditions. ESPN reports a source that said:
sources told ESPN.com that the collector took the sample home and left it in a Tupperware container on his desk for two days
I’m leaning towards the possibility of corruption.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
i don't see why his being part-time, plus the guy's son being there
means you get to take the leap to him being utterly incompetent.
again though, how does the corruption create synthetic testosterone?
It has to do with the test they use to determine that...
which examines the carbon isotopes. They take an average of the carbon isotopes present. They use a range. If it’s within the range, it’s considered endogenous. Averages. Ranges. These are statistically flawed measurements in that there is a level of confidence, p-value… room for error.
I’m willing to believe that a sample sitting out on someone’s desk for 48 hours can be structurally different than one kept at a proper temperature in a light, heat, pressure, and humidity controlled environment especially when using this isotope test.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:11 PM CST up reply actions
of course they'll say it wasn't
I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but I take what the head of the WADA says with a grain of salt. He and a lot others have got a whole lot to lose. So it could be a lie.
Say it wasn’t a lie. The larger point here, however, is they can say it wasn’t compromised or diminished, but unless they had another sample from Braun that was kept in optimum conditions as outlined then they don’t have an adequate control to compare it to!
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
they can be valid if the scientific method is properly followed
it’s a simple method that we learn in middle school. You need a valid control.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
the agreement was that the sample be sent to a fedex office that same day
for obvious and maybe not so obvious reasons (of quality). If it were sent under those conditions, I’d still want another sample sent along with it.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
yeah and you're of the opinion
that this simple middle school shit isn’t being followed by a multi-billion dollar operation with its image on the line.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
have you read anywhere that a second sample, a control sample, was sent along with his tested sample?
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
they sent an A and B sample.
how much piss do you want a guy to produce? how many samples do you need? a C sample? a D sample? A-Z samples?
i believe by control he means
a test sample that’s known will fail the test.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
that
plus, these samples were sent in a manner that I believe to be less than ideal for quality.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:48 PM CST up reply actions
Which the lab would have.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Christ. You'd need one sent along with his
so you could rule out any possibility that the process used to ship it, the chain of custody, could have caused the false positive.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:52 PM CST up reply actions
even if that weren't available
you’re still talking about a small window of opportunity. and it’s highly unlikely that isn’t SOP given the arguments used by the defense.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
while not conclusive as everyone's piss is different.
the collector had samples from two other players that presumably experienced essentially the same conditions as braun’s sample. apparently synthetic testosterone didn’t magically appear in them.
by larry on Feb 25, 2012 3:09 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
seeing as it's standard per the link you gave
under the guidelines of WADA and what an incredibly obvious opening that’d be for a lawyer, assuming that they weren’t following standard procedure is dumb. rather than choose the obvious, you think the lawyers went the far riskier route whereby they call into question the worldwide standard procedure for this particular sort of case? you’re failing statistics here man.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by the way
i’m not sure where this countertop thing is coming from. it was in a cooler in the collector’s basement.
that's just fancy lawyering.
so it was a tupperware cooler sitting on a desk in the guy’s basement. i can describe a fact in a way to make it sound good, bad or neutral.
it bears mentioning so people won't argue that this guy was an uber-dedicated MLB/WADA employee
as if every moral fiber in his being was directed towards this one purpose in his life.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
sure, but you paint a picture of fedex employees as high school dropouts who are incompetent
why can’t a collector be just as incompetent?
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:24 PM CST up reply actions
i've met multiple piss collectors. and i've met multiple fedex office employees.
i’m lucky if the fedex office employees can execute simple written directions like “double-sided copies”.
I've had my piss collected and tested at a drug and alcohol rehab center.
that guy was no more than an office assistant. We all know how smart they can be.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:31 PM CST up reply actions
fine, you refuse to accept the possibility that he's incompetent based on that information.
I take all that information and come to a different conclusion.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
and that's a crap conclusion
given the available evidence.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
that's fine, I disagree.
I’m staying open minded about this.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
you're not being open minded
you’re not appropriately assigning probability based on the available evidence. that’s just dumb. assign some reasonable probabilities to your variables and you’ll find your conclusion sucks. the appropriate thing to do if p≠ 0 or 1 is not to throw your hands in the air.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
I'm saying that I think there's sufficient evidence
to believe that his could be a false positive. I’m not going to make up some probability for that.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
it could be, but we know what the odds
for a false positive on a given test is very slim. which is why you should be very inclined to believe he’s guilty. even if the fail rate on one test were 50%, he’d still be 75% likely to be guilty!
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
regarding the collector's son,
the son was the chaperone. chaperones are employees of the drug testing agency, too. their job is to sit with the players after they have been notified they are to be tested but prior to them giving the sample. essentially, make sure the guys don’t run off to do something that somehow games the test.
this neither broke protocol nor broke confidentiality nor was careless. i’m at a loss for how who the chaperone was would cast doubt on the test result.
damn nepotism.
fuck bud selig.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Looks like I read more into what Braun said than was the case.
The reason that this is important, typically the only two people in the world who know whose sample it is are us, the donor, and the collector, who receives our urine samples. In my case there was an additional third person, the son of the collector, who just so happened to be the my chaperone on the day that I was tested.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 9:26 PM CST up reply actions
Am I missing someting?
You mean to tell me that the guy responsible for shipping specimen samples for Major League Baseball doesn’t have a FedX account? I go online pay, print labels, and drop my shipments off at the FedX office drop box all the time. They pick-up like every four hours Weekdays anyways – Weekends I admit I do not know. If he were to have placed in the overnight drop box would that have been allowed under the protocols?
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
Also
MLB is a Billion dollar industry – right? They can’t afford a special pick-up deal with FedX? We call – FedX picks-up 24/7.
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
the larger issue here doesn't seem to just be that the fedex office wasn't open.
braun argued the sample was compromised by its handling. one reading of that is the collector was corrupt. but that’s not so much what braun was arguing. his overall thesis was that because of the conditions the sample was kept in by the collector, that was why his results were so messed up. so what conditions would the package be kept in by each of the thousand or so fedex office locations? if someone is actually legitimately concerned with the handling of the samples, sitting in a fedex office for a couple days waiting to be put into transit doesn’t seem like a great idea, either. as i argued above, i think it may well be a worse idea. it’s not so much special pick-up that they need. it’s special delivery to the labs on weekends/holidays. of course, the labs are closed at those times and can’t actually receive the packages…
all of this is a kind of silly argument, though. the lab does a check on the sample when it is received to determine if the sample has been degraded. braun’s was tested and it wasn’t degraded.
"Never accept conspiracy when incompetence will explain it."
Garret Epps
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
Really?
MLB couldn’t work out a deal with a secure courier service? Was Braun the only player tested that day?
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
there were other players tested that day.
i’m not sure how possible it is to get a TSA waiver, but even for MLB a secure courier service might be cost prohibitive. trying to carry on to a commercial airliner liquids in a package that can’t be opened? i think they’d have to hire private planes.
kenwo would agree with it
if we were talking about a white sox player.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I'm torn on the steroid issue.
while it bothers me that giambi cost frank the mvp
i never really had an issue with sosa, canseco, ramirez, clemens, mcgwire, arod.
and while i don’t necessarily have an issue with any of them going into the hall of fame, they have to let in other guys that may not have the stats but did it cleanly (or at least appear to have done it cleanly) first.
like Thomas and McGriff should make the hall over mcgwire, palmeiro etc.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Isn't that exactly the reason to be opposed to it?
"Definitely typing challended today" - polodude017
you're not trying to make sense of kenwo are you?
you should know better than that.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
lots of guys have been on the juice. not a lot of them had the success that the guys i mentioned have had.
i find it hard to toss their whole careers out the window.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
i go back and forth but i tend to agree with the ruling - or at least understand the reasoning.
i think if you’re going to have a system in which the players are held to essentially strict liability for any banned substances in their systems, even if they can prove that it was inadvertently ingested, and where the consequences could be the loss of millions of dollars for a player, multiple wins for a team and a permanently damaged reputation, you better have some damn good processes for testing.
it’s not a good idea to have a sample sitting in a collector’s house for a couple days. just like i don’t think it’s a good idea for it to be sitting on a fedex shelf for a couple days. they need to figure out a way to tighten up the processes. this isn’t 1995 anymore. processes should evolve with the times and the capabilities available.
of course, i think braun is guilty as sin. technicalities don’t change that for me.
by larry on Feb 24, 2012 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah i guess that is as good a way to characterize it as any
I agree with all that
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
i'm pretty much on board with this opinion.
it seems like a pretty poorly thought out situation considering the ramifications.
but braun was clearly caught, too.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
this
larry, you have summed up my feelings on this more succinctly than I ever could.
Well, boys, it's a round ball and a round bat and you got to hit the ball square. ~Joe Schultz, 1969
by zevsenesca on Feb 25, 2012 10:40 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
again, as I linked to above...
the methods they use to determine the synthetic testosterone using isotopes has flaws.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
also, the sample could've been tampered with.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 2:16 PM CST up reply actions
what do you think the probability of that is?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I can't say.
That’s conjecturing on human nature. That’s like guessing the probability that I might get mugged walking home from the bar.
As to the possibility that the sample became changed while it sat around? No idea, but I haven’t seen any evidence nor expert opinion that it’s impossible for that to happen.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
So you're rolling with the belief that he didn't take steroids?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
I'm rolling with the belief that I don't know.
Same as I feel towards 99% of MLB players. The remaining 1% are people that are admitted users like A-Rod and some select few that I can’t fathom them using.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
that's not sufficient given the evidence.
if, for instance, the test is 99% accurate, then you should believe he’s 99% guilty.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
under optimal conditions the test may be 99% accurate
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
the test can be whatever
the point is that the evidence suggests he’s very likely guilty considering he failed the split sample both times. you should take that to mean he’s very likely guilty. not “who knooooows?!” bayes. he existed.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
by colintj on Feb 24, 2012 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
or that the sample itself was flawed to begin with.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
the entire sample was flawed from the time he pissed
in front of some dude into a jar? no matter what you’re talking about, you’re talking about low probability events. there’s no simple explanation that gets you where you are trying to be.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
did he pass a second test like 2 weeks later?
i thought i heard that. maybe i didnt.
if so… how long does steroids stay in your system?
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
and why would he play the whole season clean at an MVP level
make the playoffs and then shoot up?
it doesn’t sound right. unless maybe he was trying to fight an injury? how long does it take to feel the effects?
i’m just a guy that got big on hot dogs and beer. i don’t know.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
he'd already received his multimillion dollar contract, too.
so money was probably not his reason to dope.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
wow. i figured it would be in your system for a couple of weeks at least.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
it would still be in your system.
you just wouldn’t be above the trigger point that results in the isotope test being done, which would find the presence of a synthetic testosterone. this is why the 4:1 ratio trigger is kind of silly now. it made sense a decade ago when such things were more expensive, etc. not anymore. particularly if you’re deep pockets mlb.
i gotcha.
yeah you would think they would update their system. they probably will now…but that would have to be agreed upon by the players union correct? so it probably won’t come up til the next CBA which is what 4 years away?
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
the JDA is being "updated" with the new CBA.
that hasn’t been published yet so we don’t know all the details of what is in the new JDA.
the JDA can be amended at any time by agreement of the parties. they’ve agreed in principle that the ryan braun loophole needs to be closed, so that’s a likely amendment. maybe they’ll add some other stuff, too, in the wake of this.
also... you looked a little bigger the time we hung out before xmas.
combine that with your knowledge of this … i’m starting to suspect you are juicing.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
you should watch bigger, stronger, faster
in fact, anybody with any curiosity about steroids should watch it.
not to open the whole can of worms, but it’s definitely a counterpoint to the public perception.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
that isn't the same thing.
what braun is suggesting is that the guy somehow tampered with his sample despite their being no signs whatsoever of it being tampered with.
aside from the seals not being broken, why would the guy do that? what would he stand to gain from it? he’d have to be a crazy person and you’d imagine that sort of thing may have come up in the interview process.
btw Shoeless, have you noticed how it's not even in MLB's interest to catch
one of their rising stars who plays for the owner’s club no less? you’re throwing out the possibility that a major conspiracy was perpetrated by people who have nothing to gain from the act in question.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
who also have nothing to gain.
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
oh right yeah
good call. independent labs are contracted out, no?
So fast he could hit a ball up the middle and it would hit him in the ass sliding into second.
WADA did only the second test I believe
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
WADA doesn't test.
a lab tests. in this case, the institut armand-frappier in montreal, which is arguably the best anti-doping lab in the world. a lab may be “accredited” by WADA, and the institut armand-frappier is, but that merely means WADA thinks it’s a really good lab and anti-doping authorities should sent their samples there to be tested because it’s really good. WADA doesn’t control the lab.
looks like it's the season for peavy to start talking again.
he feels bad for “braunie”.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I'd prolly be upset too.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
but would you call him "braunie"?
prolly.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Hey larry-
In a recent article over on baseball nation, Jeff Sullivan says “Major League Baseball is upset, and it’s considering whether or not it should pursue further legal action.”
What further legal action could they take?
by South Side Expat on Feb 24, 2012 5:37 PM CST reply actions
they could appeal to federal court.
to put it in layman’s terms, the only way such an appeal could be successful is if the arbitrator’s decision was batshit crazy.
what are the chances that a man who's last name is "wada"
ended up in a job that often has something to do with “WADA”?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
higher than the chances that braun didn't take testosterone.
by larry on Feb 24, 2012 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
boom.
roasted.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
larry's coming into spring training in the best shape of his life.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Feb 24, 2012 6:16 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
larry, have you seen what Will Carroll's had to say about this?
Didn’t download his article, but sounds like he’s saying it IS possible for testosterone levels to skyrocket under such conditions.
by Craig Grebeck on Feb 24, 2012 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, i paid the 99 cents.
he says that braun presented evidence to the panel that showed that a false positive was possible when the conditions were replicated.
i think this should be separated from saying testosterone levels could become that high because of the conditions or that synthetic testosterone could appear because of the conditions. while not clear from the article, i would imagine the argument was simply that the test results could be inaccurate and show such results because of the effects of the conditions on the sample.
haha, nah.
Nothing I’ve read makes me want to change my mind and paint him guilty. I’m still buying into the chance that he didn’t do it. As long as there’s some doubt in my mind then I’m not going to change my entire view of him as a player or human being. I realize I’m going against the grain here, but it wouldn’t be the first time it was Shoeless vs. the general consensus.
fwiw, I think Braun’s case is better than Landis’, and there are webpages dedicated to explaining why Landis’ results were false positives.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
i think a lot of people are not 100% sure he did something
the question is, don’t you think the most likely reason he tested positive is because he ingested some banned substance?
this is not a court of law here.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I won't argue that it's the most likely, plausible explanation.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
not this time, no.
the arbitrator obviously felt the same and he heard and read more evidence than I have.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
let's be clear about what happened here.
the arbitrator found that the sample was not handled in an appropriate manner and thus threw out the test. he did not opine on whether the sample was tampered with or degraded. he did not opine on the test results.
fine.
I always wanted my own private island.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:21 PM CST up reply actions
I'm also taking into account his pedigree, his build, his age, his previous stats, and his contract status
taking everything into account, I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
would you have given the benefit of the doubt to andy pettitte?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
(or scores of other players?)
i would think quite a few that have been accused or admitted it would have qualified for your “benefit of doubt”. did you give them the benefit as well? at what point do you decide to not extend that benefit any longer?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
it's certainly a case by case thing.
we were privy to a lot of details regarding this braun ordeal that I don’t recall being released before.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 10:59 PM CST up reply actions
probably
because I don’t normally associate steroids/hgh with pitchers, and he had been in the league and had success for what, 7 years by 2002, the time of his admitted use?
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 10:58 PM CST up reply actions
you're really confusing me now.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
also, didn't barry bonds have a lot of success for many years
before he turned himself into a science experiment?
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
I don't recall seeing a difference in Pettitte's velocity or ability to go deeper into games
or anything else played out in the stats that stand out now. Bonds obviously was not the same person he used to be. Not in physique nor stats.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:23 PM CST up reply actions
his ability to come back to pitch as soon as he did
(which was his stated objective after the fact, not that i believe him because i think he’s a lying sack of shit) would possibly be the evidence. but there was no way of “being able to tell” he was doing something at the time.
i’m just saying, after all the players who have either admitted it or been implicated of doing it, i find it odd that you’re so ready to exonerate certain players because of…. whatever your reasons are.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
i can understand your desire to have some faith in mankind,
and i find that admirable, but i really don’t think braun deserves it.
he had a chance to properly clear his name, but he didn’t take it. he took the easy way out.
it seems that everyone has recognised the loophole he got off on
as bullshite, but that it was a loophole that could be challenged nevertheless.
his lawyers didn’t challenge the authenticity of the tests. mlb said so. suggests to me that he wanted to escape the punishment anyway he could without addressing the main problem.
quite aside from the tests themselves, this makes him look horribly guilty. especially when he had the gall to suggest tampering at his press conference, having not done so when given the chance to do it on a record that mattered.
they didn't challenge the tests themselves because there really is no way they can win that battle
Say you’re Braun and let’s just say you’re innocent. What can you possibly say at the appeal in regards to the authenticity of the tests themselves? Are you going to say that their tests are bogus? What proof do you have of that? So, does it do any good to ask them to re-rest the sample? Not really, right? So you decide the best course of action is to challenge how the sample got there because that’s a battle that you can win.
Also, according to ESPN Braun agreed to submit his DNA to match the sample and MLB didn’t take him up on the offer. I do find that a little odd. I find it odd that Braun would agree to do that and I find it odd that MLB wouldn’t take him up on that.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:19 PM CST up reply actions
braun could have submitted whatever evidence he wanted.
including a DNA test. he didn’t. a DNA test showing that the urine wasn’t his would have been a pretty open and shut case, no? what does that say to you about whose urine it was.
That's why I find it odd.
Why didn’t MLB want that test? It can only help their case, right?
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:25 PM CST up reply actions
(if they believe it to be valid, I mean)
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:25 PM CST up reply actions
I took fucking steroids man, its obvious
You’re bordering on stupid and insane here and I know you’re neither. It is so painfully obvious, you are being irrational.
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
KenWo is sleeping on the job.
Someone has to bring the ratings.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
you're on your own on this one dude.
i don’t care if he did it or not.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
then that explains why you've been mum on this issue
I’ve had to bring the ruckus in your absence.
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:47 PM CST up reply actions
Does jim give you guys a dollar for stirring shit up and talking nonsense?
It came from afar and traveled sedately on, a shrug of eternity
i don't know what you're talking about. everything i bring up is fact.
you guys will come around eventually. took 5 fucking years for you guys to see ozzie is a jag.
2015 people will be saying derrick rose is overrated.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
just about the time you guys will be drinking and discussing bud light lime.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
sweet jebus Kenwo
that was a good one! haha.
Well, boys, it's a round ball and a round bat and you got to hit the ball square. ~Joe Schultz, 1969
by zevsenesca on Feb 25, 2012 10:57 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
i'm interested in the process and the science of it all.
if he did it or not… don’t really matter. he’s playing in april regardless what we think.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
you don't get it.
what mlb wants or doesn’t want is irrelevant. the burden is on the player to show the sample isn’t his. braun could have provided the panel a DNA test showing the sample was not his. he didn’t. no one, and certainly not mlb, prevented him from doing so.
and this is what espn wrote:
Braun’s team suggested Friday that after learning of the positive test result, it requested the player’s sample undergo DNA testing to determine whether it was truly his urine.
MLB declined this request, according to Braun’s camp. While MLB agreed Braun’s camp requested the DNA request initially, a source with knowledge of the case said MLB told Braun and his lawyers it didn’t believe such a test was necessary but that they were welcome take up the issue with the arbitrator if they wanted the test conducted.
Ultimately, the source said, the DNA issue was not raised during the hearing by Braun’s team.
so, was Braun's camp just bluffing?
Or do you think they felt they had the case beat and didn’t need to risk the DNA test coming back a match?
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 24, 2012 11:44 PM CST up reply actions
could be they always intended to legally attack it from that angle,
but were giving braun some ammo for his p.r. assault (the military jargon was just for you, shoeless):
‘i tried to give them my dna, but they didn’t want it. what is up with that? what did they have to hide?’
bluffing.
if they really and truly believed that the sample wasn’t his and the DNA test would prove it, it’s over. they wouldn’t even need to go to the panel because mlb would drop the case. if you can get what you think is a slam dunk case winner, you go get it.
mlb did exactly what they should have done. they told braun to put on his case. braun decided not to pursue that defense. and i wouldn’t have either. the samples weren’t tampered with, everyone knows that. from braun’s perspective, the DNA test would very likely show the sample was his and would have cast doubt on their thesis that the samples were messed up by something that happened in those 44 hours. braun wanted to do the opposite: cast doubt that the sample was his.
as far as mlb were concerned
they had a solid regular chain of custody on his sample. why would they need a DNA sample too?
they were clearly blindsided by braun’s lawyers, and more importantly, the arbitrator’s verdict.
great headline
“Peavy disturbed by leaks in Braun case”
can’t make this stuff up
i linked to that about five hours ago, in this thread.
it’s sixteen comments above.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
i just want jake peavy to stop talking.
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
Am I missing something here?
Shouldn’t we have never known about any of this in the first place because all of this should have been confidential? MLB really needs to purge some employees; too much loose talk. We should only hear about players who used AFTER their failed appeal and as their 50 game suspension begins.
Well, boys, it's a round ball and a round bat and you got to hit the ball square. ~Joe Schultz, 1969
by zevsenesca on Feb 25, 2012 11:05 AM CST via Android app reply actions
i'd agree that is true,
but if it didn’t happen this time then we wouldn’t all know that braun is a cheating cheat.
leak didn't come from mlb.
didn’t come from braun’s camp, either. if i had to bet, it came from somebody who was consulted by those parties. braun was apparently digging deep into the collector’s background, for example. the people you contact to do that sort of thing aren’t exactly good people. and the people those people contact are worse. you’ve got braun and mlb and maybe the collection company and the collector and who knows who else was involved. and they’re contacting scientists, researchers, lawyers, investigators, subject matter experts, who knows who else to find guys they want to retain. when you’re expanding the universe of people involved to the extent someone like braun will cause it to expand because of the money he can bring to the process and the exhaustiveness that follows from that, you’re going to get a leak. this is too salacious of a story.
my scorecard now reads
peavy’s response… 0
thornton’s response… 1
"michael gilhaney is an example of a man that is nearly banjaxed from the principal of the atomic theory. would it astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?" ~~ sergeant pluck
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