Hidden truths in PECOTA's White Sox comparables
The new and possibly improved PECOTA projections from Baseball Prospectus came out Wednesday, and if you want to know how it works, Colin Wyers will explain to you using Adam Dunn as an example. If you're interested in the numbers, you can just look at Kyle's FanPost.
But if you're like me when you look at the spreadsheet, your eyes soon drift towards the comparable players column. Or, if you're Grant Brisbee, you seek it out immediately. They're fun to mull over no matter how fast you get there, because in many cases, it would be better for PECOTA if they were left unsaid.
Sometimes the comps are ridiculous on the surface, but you can at least draw a Hawk Harrelson STRETCH! connection, because, hey, Eduardo Escobar and Luis Aparicio are both diminutive Venezuelan shortstops. But then you get ones like ...
- Brent Morel: Andy Marte, Aramis Ramirez, Adrian Beltre
- Dallas McPherson: Harmon Killebrew, Mike Schmidt, Mike Hessman
And you get the idea that PECOTA isn't an intricate baseball projection system, but a high school student with senioritis mailing in a project ("Here are three third baseman. Can I graduate now?").
But amid the carnage, I did find four that ended up being somewhat profound upon some reflection.
Dayan Viciedo
Jeff Francoeur, Ruben Sierra, Ellis Valentine
Here's one that I saw and nodded, "Yup, yup, yup." I really like the Sierra comp at its core. He generated a lot of excitement with results that didn't quite match ... unless he hit .300, and then he was an MVP candidate. Viciedo doesn't seem like the best bet to age well, either. If this was the first set of comparables I saw, I would think this system had it down cold.
Alex Rios
Jerry Mumphrey, Vernon Wells, Eric Byrnes
Seeing Wells and Byrnes listed next to Rios made me laugh, because they're pretty apt comparisons for reasons not captured by PECOTA. The former was given a mistake contract by Toronto, and the latter rubbed some people the wrong way for emotional displays that lacked authenticity.
Trayce Thompson
Willie Mays, Adam Jones, Sammy Sosa
I'll wait for you to stop laughing at the concept of Thompson immediately bringing Mays to mind...
... Still? C'mon, it's not that funny ...
... Are we OK? Finally.
The Jones and Sosa listings have their selling points. Over the last two seasons, Jones has averaged 26 walks and 116 strikeouts, which is a walk-to-strikeout ratio Thompson could replicate if he makes it to the big leagues. Likewise, if restrict your vision of Sosa to what he was with the White Sox, there's a heap of tools that wouldn't come together to form a major-league game. That could very well be Thompson. He could also produce like Sosa in his early Cubs career, if things break the right way.
The 60-homer or 600-homer parts ... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's out of his reach.
Gordon Beckham
Danny Richar, Ian Kinsler, Jim Lefebvre
The first time I saw Danny Richar play was back in 2007, when I went to a Charlotte Knights-Pawtucket Red Sox game. In his first trip to the plate, he fell behind 0-2, watched three straight pitches out of the zone, and then fouled off eight pitches in a row. The 14th pitch was high and tight and resulted in an HBP, making it the hardest-earned base I've ever seen.
That's the only thing I remember about Richar, and if Beckham keeps it up, I might end up saying that the fun came crashing to a halt after he took a fastball to the hand, too.
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Yes, but,
are they redonkulous?
Sometimes I fail to see the value in the “similar to” player comparisons. Usually it’s either “trying to figure out if rookie/sophomore is going to be good” aka small sample size, or “can this veteran hold on” aka ignoring regression.
A vision from heaven! I shall indeed compose a rap about deez nutz!
Mostly entertainment value.
I wouldn’t look into it at all more deeply than that.
The lords of dawn are men such as Mr. Lucy.
I think scouts and fans can make more accurate comps than their PECOTA system.
Their comps are terrible for the guys who haven’t reached the majors, and what use are comps for established veterans?
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 9, 2012 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
But what about the Secret Sauce?
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Byrnes was the recipient of a mistake extension too,
but if we’re studying comps beyond PECOTA, you can argue that his I-can-emerge-from-a-swimming-pool Mike Illitch hair is more unfortunate than Rios’ tight-black-tshirt-and-insoucient-half-on-douche-shades motif. (And after a cursory google image search, I am inclinded to believe Vernon Wells just wears his uniform 24/7, which: awesome.)
ah, good times.
Daniel Hudson: Dwight Gooden, Justin Verlander, Felix Hernandez
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
by MarketMaker on Feb 9, 2012 10:22 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
So what they are saying is
He’s got a approximately a 33% chance of developing a wicked cocaine habit?
Well, boys, it's a round ball and a round bat and you got to hit the ball square. ~Joe Schultz, 1969
Honestly though the numbers aren't that far off of what I'm expecting.
I think a lot of these systems are getting ahead of themselves on Sale, but most of these numbers look about right. I think they’re projecting a little too much regression from Konerko, but that and a few other small quibbles aside, this looks pretty realistic.
are they taking sale's work as a reliever and using the same rates for him as a starter?
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Feb 9, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
Interesting (free) article from BP about SoxFest vs. CubbieCon
by gnix on Feb 9, 2012 11:15 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Very well written. Thanks for the link.
"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Also, Tyler Saladino's comps jumped out at me, even more than McPherson
Troy Tulowitzki, Dick McAuliffe, Cal Ripken Jr.
A guy can dream…
JJ and Gonzalez take a shot at the opening day lineup.
My two cents:
De Aza
Ramirez
Konerko
Dunn
Viciedo
Rios
Pierzynski
Morel
Beckham
4-7 is hard to figure. I could see a ton of shuffling depending on what happens the first month or two.
Ah, yes...Dunn back in the old 4 hole.
Let the flashbacks and nightsweats begin.
When you are on your way to a 77-win season, I guess you can slice and dice any way you’d like.
"I wouldn’t say I’m hitting five days a week…some weeks we won’t go at all." – Adam Dunn on his preparation routine for the 2012 season (1/24/12)
Well I'm all ears on other options.
I’d consider Viciedo to be an option for a higher spot in the lineup, but I don’t want to put too much pressure on him right off the bat. Even five is a little high to start.
about right
its scary to have dunn in the 4 hole but to start the year i put him there, figure you swap rios and aj depending on a lefty or righty on the mound and this is about the lineup…
For me initially
De Aza
Becks
Konerko
Dunn
Ramirez
Viciedo
Pierzynski
Morel
Rios
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
I'd love to see Beckham in the two hole again.
But I’d like to see him prove himself again first.
I think Becks is calm this year
i start him there and give him the chance to come out strong.
"Rooting for the Twins is just a roundabout way of rooting for a first-round playoff bye for the Yankees." by big_fun
by Tdogg on Feb 9, 2012 5:41 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Because not repeating one of the worst seasons in history won't cause any pressure at all.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Never liked the "Dunn can't play in a pressure environment" argument.
Always felt lazy.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
i don't get the DH argument.
guys have been DH’ing for a long time. maybe their average would suffer a little bit… but to completely suck? come on. i’m not buying that one either.
Kenwo4life=ratings. Just call me Mr. USA Today.
Then how about it is one of those unexplained mysteries from God?
What the hell else could it be? His appendix was his strength?
We're all here because we're not all there.
I'm going with he didn't have the time to recover from his apendix properly,
so he was doing the suck, and the time to just sit on the bench didn’t help with that. Plus, The whole hitting your 30s sucks thing.
by South Side Expat on Feb 9, 2012 6:24 PM CST up reply actions
I do wonder if/to what extent confidence affected his bat speed
I know in golf, if I’m not certain of a shot, it’s hard to swing the club like I mean it (which compounds the problem).
True. Thinking mechanics slows us down, too.
Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
That's what Beckham's saying about his problems.
by Jim Margalus on Feb 9, 2012 10:44 PM CST up reply actions
And this was a result of what?
Injury? Loss of strength? Bat speed is the symptom – what was the etiology of it?
We're all here because we're not all there.
one only cares about the etiology if it is correctable.
loss of bat speed rarely is. and the hitting coach agrees.
“I don’t think you can add bat speed to a player,” said Manto, speaking in general terms. "I think maybe in that case, you have an older player, you look for the breaking ball more often than the fastball. If we can’t get to the fastball, well, we’ll cheat and look for the curveball or changeup.
“There are ways to get around it, and there are a lot of players who played for a lot of years just by making those types of adjustments. That’s all it is, making an adjustment. Maybe changing your thought. You know what? Maybe that fastball tonight, that’s why I’m going in the breaking ball mode.”
Good piece, thanks.
If it is decreased bat speed because of injury I might disagree, but that really doesn’t seem to be the case here.
We're all here because we're not all there.
by winningugly on Feb 10, 2012 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
And short of a miracle (or extreme use of medical science)
it’s almost a mathematical impossibility for a 32 year old to hit 14 more homeruns in one season than he ever has before.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
All I'm saying
is that no one has had that horrid of a season ever besides him one year. His career stats would argue that he is in for a rebound. Even if it isn’t 60hrs, I think we will be set in place to see at least .210 and 25hrs.
True...
Dunn’s season was so bad, I would find it difficult for an experienced major league player to repeat it. Even getting to Rob Deer’s .179 / 25 HRs / 84 RBIs would be a major improvement.
Yea.
I have been wondering though. If he improves enough, do you think we could somehow get some team to take him off our hands? If he rebounds to his old self this year, having 20ish homers at the deadline, maybe we could convince some contending team to take him off our hands?
no. a full season of 'normality', maybe.
even then they’d probably have to eat some of the contract because of doubts.
Did I miss the discussion about this?
Jonathan Mayo’s White Sox Top 20.
Semien at 11 and Phegley at 20 stand out as serious lulz moments. Write-up on Phegley particularly funny.
More than anything, it was good to see Phegley healthy in 2011, and he played at two levels, reaching Triple-A. That was a huge improvement from his 48-game first full season, when the Indiana product missed a lot of the season because of a blood disorder known as ITP. He has very good arm strength, which has allowed him to throw out 48 percent of would-be basestealers in his career. The rest of his defensive game is a mixed bag, but just the fact he’s knocking on the door is a good sign.
I think I actually posted this a little while back...
but I didn’t notice that it went to 20. I don’t know a ton about Semien other than his minor league line, but 11 doesn’t seem outrageous for how bad this system is. There’s not a ton of guys behind him on this list that I can definitively say should be ahead of him.
Hadn't heard about Semien either
He was in Law’s top 10 that came out today
I mean he's only 20 and he was at Low-A.
So he was at least age appropriate for the league. His bat wasn’t god awful in those 260 PA’s, but I do remember the “experts” saying that he was a “low ceiling” guy and a poor pick that early in the draft. We’ll see. He’ll definitely be a guy I at least keep an eye on. Be interested to see if he gets a few more AB’s at Kanny or if they push him to WS.
I think Phegley and Mayo were going out to lunch today
and at that time, Phegley was actually knocking on Mayo’s door.
In which case, I guess I agree. If the guy can keep a lunch date with a writer for the White Sox website, that would be a good sign.
sideways smiley face

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