Sox trade Garland to Angels for Orlando Cabrera

by CrossCyed on Nov 19, 2007 11:09 AM CST in News Comment 188 comments

The Chicago White Sox have acquired Gold Glove Award-winning shortstop Orlando Cabrera and cash considerations from the Los Angeles Angels in exchange for right-handed pitcher Jon Garland. Cabrera, 33, batted .301 (192-for-638) with 35 doubles, eight home runs, 86 RBI, career-high 101 runs scored and 20 stolen bases in 155 games with the Angels in 2007. He tied for the American League lead with 11 sacrifice hits, ranked third with 63 multi-hit games and sixth in hits. Cabrera, who was third among AL shortstops in average and RBI, led the Angels in runs scored for the second straight season, and his career-best 192 hits were the most ever by an Angels shortstop. Cabrera, 5-foot-9 and 185 pounds, earned his second career Rawlings Gold Glove Award in 2007 after leading all AL shortstops in fielding percentage (.983) for the second time in the last three seasons. Cabrera's .982 fielding percentage over the last three seasons tops all AL shortstops. Cabrera is a career .273 (1,446-for-5,301) hitter with 341 doubles, 97 home runs, 627 RBI, 165 stolen bases and 706 runs scored over 11 major-league seasons with Montreal (1997-2004), Boston (2004) and the Angels (2005-07). He ranks fifth in the major leagues with 277 doubles since 2001, including a career-high 45 in 2006. Cabrera has stolen 20 or more bases five times. Cabrera tied the major-league record for shortstops with a .988 fielding percentage in 2005 and won a Gold Glove Award with Montreal in 2001. He has 27 games of postseason experience and was a member of the 2004 World Champion Boston Red Sox.

BTW, the Sox released the 2008 Spring Training schedule.

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If true.......

it's a brilliant trade....

by stanchar on Nov 19, 2007 11:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Really? For who?

I wouldn't call a 33 year old SS, who is a FA at the end of next season, with a career OPS+ of 86 and line of .273/.321/.403/.724, a haul for Garland.

Apparently Kenny wants this team to get older.

by BustedFlush on Nov 19, 2007 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's a 1-year deal...

Both guys have 1 yrs left on their contracts.

I'm sure Cabrerra can still run just fine for this year.

by ruffster on Nov 19, 2007 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My point is that

we didn't receive that much in return for Garland.

I'd love to know KW is thinking.

by BustedFlush on Nov 19, 2007 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I see what you mean

... esp. if you are concerned about beyond 2008.

But for 2008, this could be a good deal.

Cabrerra can bat at the top of the order, can actually hit. Had can steal bases too.

Sadly, this is the market value of starting pitchers who have years like what Garland did last year and 1 year left on contract.

Nobody wants to trade good prospects for 1 year of a guy like Garland. There is just too much bang for the buck potential in good young prospects.

I don't see any point in getting 3 or 4 lesser prospects who might never make the ML roster except as a scrub.

by ruffster on Nov 19, 2007 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Seems to be very true

Gonzales of the tribune has it up on the hardball blog thing, and MLBTraderumors.com is also reporting it. Was cabrera all Garland was worth? seems mighty dissapointing. But apparently the angels are also sending cash to the white sox, the number was not disclosed, but that has to mean the sox are serious about getting a free agent.

by boyonthedock on Nov 19, 2007 11:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think this is a good trade...

but the fact that Cabrera is only under contract for one season sucks.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just asking.

How big an upgrade would Cabrera be at this point of his career?

Spoken like a true prodigy. How about you, Lash LaRue? You think you can keep your spurs from jinglin' and janglin'?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 11:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Heard it on Waddle and Silvy

Cabrera is at least better than Uribe but I think we could have gotten someone better, at least younger. If we are getting cash than Jones might be within reach, as long as Kenny doesnt follow through with that ridiculous idea of getting Hunter.

"I'm not a 6-year-old." -Brian Nikola "Ungrindy" Anderson

by omnipotent grab on Nov 19, 2007 11:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's done.

According to ESPN.com.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118872

Spoken like a true prodigy. How about you, Lash LaRue? You think you can keep your spurs from jinglin' and janglin'?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 11:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Confirmed by Mark Gonzales...

"UPDATE: Garland to Angels"

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 11:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If they could sign him to an extension

This could be great cause in all honesty, Garland is not as good as advertised.

I just hate the fact that we got a 33 year old infielder for him. I know it's not that old and Jeter is even 33 but I think Garland's value would have gotten us something young and really good.

AIM : Option27

by Option27 on Nov 19, 2007 11:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I just realized that Cabrera is 33 years old...

and only under contract for 1 more season and now this trade looks pretty crappy.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Any options?

by ballyb on Nov 19, 2007 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Drink heavily!

Spoken like a true prodigy. How about you, Lash LaRue? You think you can keep your spurs from jinglin' and janglin'?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nope...

Cabrera is only under contract for 2008 at $9 million dollars.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I already started drinking

At least we got a gold glove now even if Hunter doesn't sign.

AIM : Option27

by Option27 on Nov 19, 2007 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What happened to getting younger?

I thought that was the plan. San francisco is not a good team model. But how much is cabrera getting paid? and how much cash are we receiving? I'm surprised we got cash, because Garland was slated for ~12 million. This has to shave at least 5 or six million off the payroll, right?

by boyonthedock on Nov 19, 2007 11:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Not saving too much

Cabrera is set to make $9 million next year

Hopefully we received a bunch of cash.

by BustedFlush on Nov 19, 2007 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Either Uribe is going to be traded now...

or he will play 2B if Richar falters. But I don't see Kenny wanting to pay a utility infielder $4.5 million dollars.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 11:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

What do YOU think of the deal?

by ballyb on Nov 19, 2007 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Once I realized that Cabrera is already 33...

and is only under contract for one more season, it doesn't look that good. I would have rather gotten a young player back from the Angels than a one year stop-gap at SS.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Uribe trade

I suppose we could use another A-ball releiver or 2.

And the more I think about, garland really isn't that big a prize. His age and innings are the only real plusses I can see at this point. Maybe those things are harder to come by than I thought.

by boyonthedock on Nov 19, 2007 11:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Don't tell Soulja Boy...

(See the diaries)

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 11:50 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

LOL

I love this trade. Orlando is just what we need... plus some attitude. He will go in spikes high every play, put hard tags down on someones face, hit and play defense. What more do you guys want ssh2005? He is one of my favorite players in all honesty.

If you die with your eyes open you deserved it.

by Soulja Boy on Nov 19, 2007 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You 9 days ago.

"We should sign our 2nd best pitcher to a long term deal instead of trading him."

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hehe...

Now Soulja Boy looks like a homer chump.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I

Just didn't want us to trade him for prospects. I h8 prospects. and I <3 Orlando. Just remember there is no such thing as a can't miss prospect.

If you die with your eyes open you deserved it.

by Soulja Boy on Nov 19, 2007 4:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think that...

this move might just be salary relief past this year as well. i remember reading that garland probably won't be a type A free agent after he leaves and will command a contract like buehrle's (and he's not worth that). but i think with the season cabrera just had he may be in line for type A status if he leaves after 2008

by thewatermelonseeds on Nov 19, 2007 11:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Or maybe Cabrera is going to be flipped

for something KW really wants?
Until I hear this one explained/spun by KW, I'll not judge either way.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 11:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Could be,

but now that you've got two shortstops set to make almost $14 million between them, you don't have much leverage to get much for Cabrera.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

loss of leverage?

explanation please?

by The Wizard on Nov 19, 2007 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Holes

The Sox have a ton of holes, yet have two shortstops making $14 million between them. Both of them can't play (at least not short).

So, if Kenny wants to dump one of them to fill one of the many holes in the Sox roster and you're an opposing GM, you should be able to get one of them for less than optimal value.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why in the blue hell hell would we flip Cabrera...

when Garland had more trade value?

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking more of a 3-way

that's already set up, but the pieces just didn't fit between say the Angels and Mets (or something like that). So KW sends Cabrera to the Mets for Milledge? Along those lines...

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You are a voice of reason.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

More likely "delusional"

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Will Cabrera be a Type B free agent after '08?

Just curious about the draft picks.

"I'm not a 6-year-old." -Brian Nikola "Ungrindy" Anderson

by omnipotent grab on Nov 19, 2007 11:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's a bad trade...

Cabrera has lifetime .321 OBP. He's old. He's around for one season. A trade like Garcia for Gonzalez and Floyd would have been fine.

Garland didn't have a lot of value, but this was a terrible use of a tradeable asset. How can he get moved to LAA and the Sox not get a prospect? Instead they get an old player that isn't a signifcant upgrade.

I think every day that Williams is the Sox GM pushes the Sox next contending season further off into the future.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 19, 2007 11:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I thought Garland was worth more...

Goos, solid starting pitchers are rare, and Garland's the solidest of them all. He's never missed a start, never been to the disabled list, and he eats innings in a reliable fashion.

Also, "cash considerations"? I wonder how much of Cabrera's salary the Angels are paying?

by Stealfirstbase on Nov 19, 2007 11:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

that should read "good"

We really should have gotten a prospect. Not a terrible trade, just a mediocre one.

by Stealfirstbase on Nov 19, 2007 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd like to see how this all plays out

Before decide one way or another. I've got a feeling that another move or 2 is forthcoming.

by Big Daddy Kool on Nov 19, 2007 12:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Cabrera won't be flipped.

He is what KW really wants. In all honesty, for the 2008 season, Cabrera should be an excellent performer as a top of the order hitter and excellent defender.

But, I don't see how giving up Garland for him helps the Sox a whole lot. They needed to fill some holes and they didn't.

Kenny better start acquiring some players in the FA market real soon since he's obviously going for it ALL in 2008.

by White Sox Randy on Nov 19, 2007 12:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

No argument with the glove, but

what makes you think he's going to be an excellent top of the order hitter?

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

umm, did you read the article ?

plus takes walks, rarely strikes out, sacrifices, hits, drives in runs, steals bases. I mean he's not Jeter at the plate but compared to Uribe it's night and day. And, he's always hit at the top of the order.

by White Sox Randy on Nov 19, 2007 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ummm, did you look at his numbers?

44 walks in 701 plate appearances.
Not to mention the lifetime 86 OPS+. Even last year, when he hit .301 with 35 doubles and knocked in 86, he still got on base at just above league average clip (.340 v. .345) and slugged 30 points less than league average. He is a below average hitter.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For comparison's sake on taking walks,

Uribe took 34 in 563 plate appearances, which projects to 42 in 701 plate appearances...two less than Cabrera. Did you think of Uribe as a guy who takes walks?

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For a SS...

I'd have to think Cabrera is slightly above average. He's posted a collective 93 OPS+ the last two years -- I'd guess the average shorstop is anywhere from 85-90.

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you don't think that Cabrera will be batting...

leadoff or second, you are delusional.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cabrera has speed and can steal bases...

You can guarantee that Ozzie will have him at the top of the order. Cabrera's OBP probably doesn't mean that much to Ozzie one way or the other.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If that's to me,

I didn't say that he won't be batting at the top of the order. I was questioning what made him an "exceptional" top of the order hitter.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cabrera's OBP...

the past two seasons is right around .340. That's right at what Iguchi gave the Sox and much better than what Podsednik gave us (save for the first half of 2005).

I'm not saying he's an ideal top-of-the-order guy, but...

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ZiPS uses .279/.334/.418

as its average shortstop. It projects Cabrera at .274/.328/.364. Basically, he'll walk slightly better, but his power is starting to dry up. He also grades out at "Avg" according to ZiPS defensive thingy, which I don't really get.

Basically, we traded for 5/6 of an average shortstop for a single year.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 19, 2007 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I saw that the other day

Yeah -- maybe it's just me being too optimistic, but that projection seemed rather low for <Rex Hudler voice> "The O-Dog!" His slugging percentage the past two seasons has sat at right around .400 -- so he's going to have a 30 point drop just because he's one year older? That didn't seem right.

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I see why though

ZiPS pegged him as a .275ish hitter and tacked on the .90 ISO to get his slugging. He's averaged about a .108 the last three years and dipped under .100 for the first time this year. I don't think it's really inconceivable, though he could certainly rebound to a .100-.110 next year, if not better in the Cell. He's not a .300 hitter though, despite what he managed last year. That was his highest BABIP ever, though he doesn't have to have a super high BABIP because he strikes out so little.

My guess: .280/.330/.390 with average defense.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 19, 2007 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok, so what about T-Boat? 2B?

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I knew when Houston offered, last year,

Hirsh, Taveras and Bucholz for him that the Sox should have taken it.

by White Sox Randy on Nov 19, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't know if this was mentioned...

but my first thought is that Cabrera is likely to be type-A while Garland would have to replicate 2005 to be type-A.

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 12:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

watermelonseeds beat you to it.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if we offer him arbitration yes?

in that case it looks like

1 year of garland for 1 year of OC + draft pick(s) + cash

hmmmm...

by The Wizard on Nov 19, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Will the Sox offer arbitration?

They seem very reluctant to do it usually. I guess if they do it would be a sign of a new philosophy.

Still, I have a terrible vision of Owens and Cabrera batting 1-2 and posting a collective .320 OBP. And I don't see any real savings money-wise with Cabrera making $9M and Uribe $4.5M

by hitlesswonder on Nov 19, 2007 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Very, very dissapointed

Garland was the most attractive asset that the Sox were willing to move.

In return we get a 33 year old SS for one year after we pick up Uribe's option. This trade doesn't make any sense at the moment. Hopefully, it's part of a bigger trade, but standing alone, it looks pretty awful.

by BoKnows on Nov 19, 2007 12:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Also

Cabrera is a valuable player. His OPS+ the last two seasons is about 93 and I still think he's rated a pretty strong defender. So I guess what I'm saying is this deal isn't nearly as bad as a lot of you guys are making it out to be.

Unfortunately, I view this move the same way Larry views the Dye signing. When looking at it in a vacuum it looks like a fine deal. Unfortunately, the Sox just added another 30-something year old and Kenny still seems set on 2008. He crosses the line if DLS or Carter or any one of our top prospects go for a non-star-mid-20s player (ie someone not named Crawford or M Cabrera).

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 12:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Ummm

Cabrera is a valuable player. His OPS+ the last two seasons is about 93

That's below league average--not by much, but it is.

by BustedFlush on Nov 19, 2007 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's below league average

but I'd imagine it's slightly above average for shortstops, as mentioned above.

I sound like I'm completely behind this trade all the way. I'm not. Let me make that clear. I don't think it's a terrible deal -- my best way to describe it would be a gigantic 'meh'.

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

True

didn't see your previous post until now.

by BustedFlush on Nov 19, 2007 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but it is well above average

for a SS.

by bhoov on Nov 19, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe the Sox are gonna sign Hunter and Rowand

and some Japanese pitchers !

by White Sox Randy on Nov 19, 2007 12:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

We need things to start falling into place now!

I wanna see the wheels in motion. This just scares me.

AIM : Option27

by Option27 on Nov 19, 2007 12:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Here's hoping there's

another deal out there. Cabrera is grouped with 2nd basemen and third basemen for eval of type A and B status. So he's unlikely to be type A (top 20%) as is Garland. They will probably both wind up type B. So no difference there. If this is it I'm against this. Maybe this will be a another Lee for Pods trade and the 6 million saved goes towards a major upgrade in another area.

by bhoov on Nov 19, 2007 12:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

bhoov

Which third-basemen and second-basemen figure to be rated better than Cabrera? I'm not sure how they're ranked, but Cabrera looks pretty good in all the 'sexy' stats -- .290-.300 BA, good amount of RBIs for a SS. I don't know, maybe I'm looking at it incorrectly but I think the chances of Cabrera being type-A are pretty damn good.

Unfortunately, I'd say it's just as likely that the Sox try to extend Cabrera for a couple more seasons. It's not like he's blocking anyone, so...

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're right

The rankings are here

Cabrera seems likely to be Type A if the Sox offer arbitration.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 19, 2007 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My mistake.

Those ratings are even more screwy this year it seems. A-rod is the 6th best among 3b,2b,ss? Uribe is equivalent to Eric Chavez? Wow! They must be weighting FP very highly. So then it is more like:

1 yr. of Garland for 1 yr. of Cabrera + 1 draft pick + 4-6 million.

That's a little better.

by bhoov on Nov 19, 2007 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

unlikely?

you must be expecting a poor year from cabrera. unlike garland, cabrera was ranked 9th this year - comfortably type a.

by larry on Nov 19, 2007 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Larry has arrived!

Your thoughts on the deal?

I eagerly await Cheat's post, BTW. I tend to think his thoughts will be similar to mine -- not hating the deal value-wise ($$$ freed up, decent player in return and the potential for two draft picks) -- but I'll still be refreshing every ten minutes in hopes of a Cheat post.

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's not the way i would have gone

that said, i'd call this a pretty good deal for the sox for what they're apparently trying to do: compete next year. cabrera is likely the better player next year than garland. he's cheaper. we're getting cash (i'm interested to see how much). the pick compensation is likely to be better than garland. if it's not, it's then likely to be the same. and in a market where middle infield help seems to be at a bit of a premium, we now have a chip in uribe that could be converted into something else we could use - such as a reliever.

one problem i have with the deal is that we apparently decided to set the market for trading starting pitching. i'm not sure that was wise. however, like i always view things, we need to see how this offseason plays out and put this trade in that context, as well. right now, in isolation, i think it looks favorable.

i'll need my thoughts to coalesce a little more. my visceral reaction was to dislike it because i wanted garland moved for someone who could help us over more than a season. i've moved past that a bit when looking into the numbers but i'll still need to consider it some more.

by larry on Nov 19, 2007 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

remember

we were going to swap buehrle for renteria... I like this deal alot better than that rumored one.

If you die with your eyes open you deserved it.

by Soulja Boy on Nov 19, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Who gives a shit how old he is?

He stays healthy, he can still steal some bags and he can still play defense. We have him under contract for ONE year, and he hasn't started to decline due to age yet -- so who cares?

You don't see anyone saying they wouldn't sign A-Rod for TEN years (and he's 32). I know, A-Rod is a future HOFer, etc, etc... but one year of a 33-year-old Cabrera is not nearly as dooming as everyone thinks.

"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Nov 19, 2007 12:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

This isn't a vacuum.

To get one year of the guy who is a below league average hitter who can flash some leather and steal some bags, you gave up a better than league average innings eater who many presume was worth more than Cabrera in the trade market. And this is only AFTER you re-sign Torpedo Boat for $4.5 MM.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You make very strong and valid points

I agree with everything you say, but a lot of people in this thread are basing their judgments of Cabrera upon his age -- a judgment that is misleading and invalid.

"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Nov 19, 2007 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Age is a factor

Can he replicate his 2007 in 2008? It's less a sure thing for a 33 year-old. There's also the strong chance the Sox will try to extend him, although I suppose you could consider that a separate issue.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 19, 2007 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cabrera

Remember, I also was 33 years old when the White Sox re-acquired me after the 1967 season. I was still pretty good for a few more years...but, of course, the team fell apart, so what are you going to do?

Number 11

by LittleLooie on Nov 19, 2007 12:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Angeles fans love Cabrera

It's interesting to see what the Angeles fans are saying about this trade. They think Cabrera's golden.
http://www.halosheaven.com/story/2007/11/19/123435/80#commenttop

http://www.halosheaven.com/

by egardne on Nov 19, 2007 12:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Even through last season,

tons of Sox fans thought Podsednik was golden.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

On this blog?

All I can remember is everyone on southsidesox wanting to get rid of Podsednik, not to mention Uribe.

by egardne on Nov 19, 2007 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

this blog

hardly represents the "teeming masses" of White Sox fans.

The Few, The Informed, The Bloggers

by Hazymania on Nov 19, 2007 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't say this blog.

I said Sox fans. And don't compare the Halos Heaven blog to this one.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course Halos Heaven fans are idiots

My only point was that it would seem that if one wanted to get some sense of the value of a player, one might look at a blog where presumably the fans have some knowledge and interest in the team. And from this perspective Cabrera is a very desirable player. Of course, this has no bearing on whether giving up Garland was too much.

by egardne on Nov 19, 2007 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope, from this point on,

KW has plans to deal Crede and Contreras for some youth. A Crede to Dodgers deal, Count to the Mets. something. It's hard to judge this Cabrera trade without seeing the chain of events this puts in motion. It's not the best, but if KW manages to wrangle a Milledge or a Kemp, some young outfielder, somehow, trading for a 33 year old SS won't seem that bad.

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 12:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Crede or Contreras

alone won't net the Sox a young OF like Milledge or Kemp. Garland was our best chance at getting one of those guys in return, which makes this trade very confusing.

by BoKnows on Nov 19, 2007 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Likely, that's true

But maybe a BA or Sweeney could, possibly, sweeten a deal. Maybe even a young arm like Broadway or Phillips. Pure speculation, of course.

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's definitely True

by BoKnows on Nov 19, 2007 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well... I wouldn't be so bold as

to be able to think along the lines of anyone, let alone a baseball GM. You never know; the Mets aren't as high on Milledge as they once were, and now with Glavine gone, they are hard up for an arm. A Count-MIlledge deal is rather unlikely, but speculation is speculation. Maybe you have some inside information that gives you absolute knowledge?

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well... I wouldn't be so bold as

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not absolute knowledge...

but common sense that you don't trade away a cheap, young, talented OF for an expensive, old, unrealiable starter.

by BoKnows on Nov 19, 2007 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gosh, thanks Bo

I done forgot my common sense at home.

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not knocking you...

Just the idea that that could/would ever happen.

Suffice it to say, if it did, I'd be the first to congratulate you and KW.

by BoKnows on Nov 19, 2007 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't sweat it, Bo

I still believe in a slight chance in a Contreras to the Mets, with someone from the Sox farm being tacked on, but that's only if the Mets strike out on all other options, and they just get desperate for a starter. Coletti seems pretty set on hanging onto his young guys, and Contreras is nowhere near lucrative enough to get LA to budge. So I 90% agree with your 'no way' assesment.

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This trade give you some reason to believe that...

KW will now be trading for youth ?

I'm sorry but everything that I see says that KW is trying to go to the WS this year.

by White Sox Randy on Nov 19, 2007 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

08 Rotation-The Kids Can Pitch

Does this all but guarantee another year of Contreras then?

I don't know, I can't see Kenny going into 08 with three kids pitching and in translation I suppose that means another year of Contreras, with MB, Javi, Danks, and presumably Floyd.

Signing OC (as he is so adorably referred to on the Angels page) just lends to the win-now attitude that Kenny has obviously adopted.

It's like Keith said, by itself this trade isn't horrible, but coupled with the rest of the moves made recently and Kenny's raging hard-on for Hunter all equate to making a "run" at it in '08, even with a suspect rotation.

by Hazymania on Nov 19, 2007 12:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think it was Larry

who mentioned bringing in Clement; I'd like to see that.

A Buerhle-Javy-Clement-Danks-Floyd rotation isn't all that bad, provided Clement bounces back.

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

with a goatee like that...

I'd expect nothing less.

by Hazymania on Nov 19, 2007 12:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

age

what's the big deal if we gonna have him for 1 yeR only?

yes, I'd prefer something younger but this looks ok at the moment

by The Wizard on Nov 19, 2007 12:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't think anyone has mentioned clutch hitting

But Cabrera has been very good throughout his career w/ runners on and w/ RISP:

348/387/440 runners on
311/363/428 RISP
346/378/513 RISP, 2 outs

Just thought I'd point that out. Discuss.

"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Nov 19, 2007 12:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for pointing that out.

by ballyb on Nov 19, 2007 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great... he's a clutch hitter.

I'd rather have him than A-Rod then. ; )

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yup

simple addition of those numbers, and Jerry Owen's projected production equals 2 RBI for Cabrera in 08.

Dubee and Danks and pray for Taco Bell

by hscs on Nov 19, 2007 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It sucks not being able to post in the morning...

Not an F. Yeah! trade, but one that clearly fits into my off-season plan.

My only concern is that Contreras is still around. I'd rather not have Contreras plus two of Danks/FLoyd/Gio/Egbert/Broadway in the rotation.

I'll have a proper post up in an hour or so.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 19, 2007 1:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

can we get anything good for contreras right now?

by The Wizard on Nov 19, 2007 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was wondering where Cheat was

I doubt Contreras will get us anything good.

AIM : Option27

by Option27 on Nov 19, 2007 1:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OC projections

ZiPS .274/.328/.364, 59/47 K/BB, 18/3 SB/CS
BiJa .273/.326/.384, 62/46 K/BB, 17/5 SB/CS

by The Wizard on Nov 19, 2007 1:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

THIS from Baseballtradefactory.com.

To the great disgruntlement of all those folks who despise Win Shares, Orlando Cabrera (in 2007 at least) was the best WS SS in the AL:

2007 Cabrera O LAA 25
2007 Jeter D NYA 24
2007 Young M TEX 23
2007 Peralta J CLE 22
2007 Guillen C DET 19
2007 Betancourt Y SEA 19
2007 Bartlett J MIN 16
2007 Tejada M BAL 15
2007 Harris B TB 13
2007 Uribe J CHA 13

by ballyb on Nov 19, 2007 1:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why I like the trade......

very simple---this team is in desperate need of a guy who can "handle the bat." Cabrera will work the count, move runners over, etc....he also has a great glove....

I just wish we had let Uribe walk....now what do we do with him?

by stanchar on Nov 19, 2007 1:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

but do note that Cabrera was 24th out of 26th in p/pa last year. Worse than The Boat.

by BustedFlush on Nov 19, 2007 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kenny speaks via AP

Garland has been a reliable member of the rotation, throwing more than 200 innings in each of the last four seasons.

But general manager Ken Williams said the White Sox have ample depth in the minors with pitchers like Lance Broadway and will likely start with a rotation of Mark Buehrle, Javier Vazquez, Jose Contreras, Jon Danks and Gavin Floyd in 2008.

Williams said the trade with the Angels could also help the White Sox financially to make another deal.

"We're not done yet. We're still trying to land a big fish," Williams said.

The deal comes during an offseason in which the White Sox re-signed shortstop Juan Uribe, who has shown power but been inconsistent at the plate. Williams said he feels Cabrera gives the White Sox a better chance to win a championship than what Uribe has shown.

"We saw an opportunity to acquire one of the best shortstops in the game and one of the smartest in the game," Williams said. "Somebody who can fit into the No. 2 spot in our lineup for 155 games."

The White Sox tumbled to fourth in the AL Central last season and Williams has vowed to make changes.

"Last year did not sit well with any of us. I'll be damn if we're going to go through that again. We will aggressively pursue a championship," Williams said.

The White Sox hope to bolster their bullpen and need help in the outfield. Reports say they have met with free agent Torii Hunter.

"This is just a start," Williams said.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 1:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

back up the moving van...

... "this is just the beginning."

I still don't see KW signed Uribe if this was in the works a week ago. So this had to be something that just came up.

So who plays short now for the Halos? Aybar?

by ruffster on Nov 19, 2007 1:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i dont agree

deals fall through all the time. a decision had to be made on uribe. would you like the sox to be in a situation where they don't have uribe signed, couldn't get cabrera, and are now pursuing eckstein or something?

first, signing uribe was insurance. second, it put us in a better bargaining position with the angels for this deal. third, uribe is a commodity that can be flipped - it's not like his contract is onerous or something. it was a smart, smart move by KW. let's just hope he can move uribe for a decent piece (assuming i'm correct in how this plan is going to play out).

by larry on Nov 19, 2007 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right...

Uribe's got to go. Think he's inconsistent now? Wait until he isn't playing every day. It was a good insurance move, and a well enough bargain at 4.5 million. But now it's time to get something for him.

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I

have NO problem keeping Uribe as a platoon second baseman with Richar and as a backup SS and third baseman, for that matter. In fact, I like it quite a bit. That said, if he's needed to make another deal that makes sense, then fine.

by dantesox on Nov 19, 2007 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, all things considered

even if we missed out on some proposed deals earlier and sold low, Kenny had to act now. He maintained flexibility and got a draft pick out of it, making the asset more valuable. And cash.

Bottom line: -7.1 '07 VORP vs. 31.7 '07 VORP at short stop exchange. That's a 38.8 difference, well more than the 26.6 VORP that Garland posted. In terms of player value, we make out well enough.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 19, 2007 11:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

Anybody know what their projected VORPs are for next season?

More appropriately, where should I look it up for myself?

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 20, 2007 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well

if cabrera repeats that 31 VORP, i'll be stunned. he's an improvement but he's not a 40 VORP improvement.

by larry on Nov 20, 2007 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Really? It's just contigent on him matching

the highest BABIP of his career.

But he can do somewhere in the 20's and he'll help against lefties and no more Profundo.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 20, 2007 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well, he can do 20s, obviously

but i wouldn't count on that, either. i don't believe he ever even sniffed the 20s until last year.

by larry on Nov 20, 2007 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Angels turned him into a doubles machine

somehow. Either way, his performance is subject to a lot of fluctuation because of his reliance on his batting average and we could end up with a Profundo Dos if we get really bad luck. I think I called a .280/.330/.390 season, but that average could very realistically dip down into the .265 range and all of a sudden we're wondering exactly how to weight the OBP vs. SLG aspects of a true OPS.

He'd still be better than Juan, but it wouldn't be as obvious and we'd end up losing the trade. And having him for another two seasons.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 20, 2007 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

2 things jump out:

"This is just a start". Good.
"#2 spot for 155 games". Ah! Still looking for a leadoff man. Good.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Are we still looking for a leadoff guy?

I fear that KW may be content with Owens in the leadoff spot, whether in LF or CF.

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

fields for leadoff?

He can run, he can hit. So he can't steal (yet). But if he hits 40 doubles batting leadoff all season, he doesn't need to steal bases.

by ruffster on Nov 19, 2007 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He also strikes out

about every other AB. Fields would have to be an on-base machine to bat leadoff, and he just isn't.

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd have believed KW was satisfied

with Uribe at short before I'd believe he was satisfied with Owens leading off. If he was smart enough to address SS, he's smart enough to recognize that he isn't going to the WS with Owens in that position.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

#2 spot, good catch

My biggest worry when the deal was announced was that Cabrera figured to slot into leadoff because of his speed.

This is an interesting deal for the Sox, who now have middle infield depth. I suspect that one of Uribe or Richar won't be coming north from Tuscon next spring. Let's see what Kenny does next.

Good for Garland. He gets to go back home to a team that's a favorite to make the playoffs. Whether Aybar or Wood replaces Cabrera, the Angels should have a good shortstop behind him.

by asinwreck on Nov 19, 2007 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

kw

st:

Williams said he envisions Cabrera batting in the second spot. Cabrera, 33, tied for the American League lead with 11 sacrifice hits.
...
Williams said he'll explore trade possibilities for Juan Uribe, who recently had his contract redone.

by The Wizard on Nov 19, 2007 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

According to B-R,

he actually had 3 sacs and 11 sac flies.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I like KW's thoughts however....

land a big fish ? How about several. A championship club ? Ok. You need mucho bullpen help. You need 2 good outfielders and what about the starting rotation ? That's championship level ? Ok.

by White Sox Randy on Nov 19, 2007 1:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Ugh

I really liked Garland. He was young and he pitched well enough to eat a lot of innings. I think that has a lot of value to a team - you can't be going to the pen in the 5th every other day.

That said, I think this means that they had no intention of signing him beyond 2008, in which case they just got something for him. Seems a little desperate and short sighted to get a guy like Cabrera - a good "name", but at 33?

"Can I borrow your towel? I think my car just hit a water buffalo." - Fletch

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 19, 2007 2:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

AROD

is 32.

by ballyb on Nov 19, 2007 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And is one of the greatest players in MLB history.

Not the same thing.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dammit, Toonder,

I can't keep up with your new sigs? Sun Tzu?

PS Not that anyone pines for my opinion, but I think it's a good deal if the Sox are trying to compete for the next 1-2 years while hoping the farm catches up. We have been agonizing over a #2 hitter and now have a bona fide one. We have been agonizing over our SS play and now have a significant upgrade - perhaps not in range/age. (Who gives an eff about the fact that he's 33?) Instead of flashy/inconsistent play we'll have good,reliable play (isn't he a gold-glover, anyway?)

We've filled 2 major gaps - SS and #2 hitter (Cheat, I am aware these are both not positions!). And how many have been in love with Garland? I don't necessarily agree we ought to be trying to stitch togeter a competitive season at the expense of long-term growth but whatthehell, the Yankees did it for years before they developed their farm system and were able to do more than compete - they won.

A good trade. Now if we can plug the 'pen and OF holes we might have something. I don't know that we have a "big fish" worth the $ being bandied about for FA's but we'll have to see (Jones/Rowand?).

Our immediate future (next year) is even mopre tied to Coop developing one of our kids into a solid #3.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 19, 2007 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pai Mei.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Digging the Tarantino guy,

aren't you?

Re: Boras/Jones - I think Scotty might be in a bit of a weakened position right now, what with Rogers firing him and A-Rod doing the end-around. Might be time if we really want 'Druw to press for direct contact.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 19, 2007 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

power hitter v. "speed" guy

they age different.

by larry on Nov 19, 2007 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A-rod shouldnt be compared to average players

He is a freak of nature and it is simply not fair to compare other players to him except for the elite ones.

"I'm not a 6-year-old." -Brian Nikola "Ungrindy" Anderson

by omnipotent grab on Nov 19, 2007 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Upside

I just see Garland being more valuable to the Sox than Cabrera. I see more drop-off from Garland to Broadway than I see improvement from Uribe to Cabrera.

I hope I'm wrong and KW is right.

Profundo! indeed

"Can I borrow your towel? I think my car just hit a water buffalo." - Fletch

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 19, 2007 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

garland to broadway?

broadway is certainly not next in line. gavin floyd anyone? free agent?

by larry on Nov 19, 2007 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As of right now...

it looks like a rotation of:

Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras
Danks
Floyd

Obviously, this could change with a signing or a stellar Spring Training performance by one or two of our young pitching prospects.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If anyone ever thinks that the Sox...

will give up money in any deal, note this trade.

The Sox sent the higher priced player in this deal (Garland gets $12 million in 2008) and still got money back from the Angels for Cabrera ($9 million in 2008). The Sox don't give up money to get a better return in trades.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 2:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

ever is a long time

koch, colon, and alomar (robby, 2nd time) were all acquisitions in the KW era where the sox sent money along.

by larry on Nov 19, 2007 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A notable amount of cash to get better prospects..

not chump change.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think

the better lesson in the deal is that the angels' policy of not trading their prospects is still well intact despite the change in leadership. we were trading with the angels. expecting anything other than them throwing their money around is silly.

by larry on Nov 19, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So the Angels were the only team...

interested in Garland? I find that hard to believe.

Anyways, I'm not THAT disappointed in this trade. We get a much better SS to replace Juan Urine and we also free up $3 million in swapping Garland for Cabrera plus whatever cash they sent us. If Kenny can manage to dump Uribe's $4.5 million, he should be able to make a few acquisitions. It looks like Kenny is serious about improving CF.

The big question is what Kenny will do with Crede. Crede at 3B and Fields in LF may be our best option. If Kenny trades Crede and sticks Fields at 3B, he will need to acquire a LF'er, as well as a CF'er. Jerry Owens in the outfield should not be an option.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

of course they weren't

i certainly didn't say that and no one else did either.

by larry on Nov 19, 2007 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thankfully, in this trade...

getting money back from the Angels may work out in the end. If we can dump Uribe's salary and also use the money from the Angels in acquiring a top CF free agent, our lineup is vastly improved...

2B Danny Richar
SS Orlando Cabrera
DH Jim Thome
1B Paul Konerko
CF ???
RF Jermaine Dye
LF Josh Fields
3B Joe Crede
C A.J. Pierzynski

Andruw Jones would look pretty sick in CF but unfortunately I don't see this happening with Scott Boras around. I'm guess Kenny will settle for Rowand. Obviously, Kenny could still trade Crede and stick Fields at 3B but then he would also need to acquire a LF'er. If he trades Crede, Jerry Owens had better not be starting in LF.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Minus Owens

that's one of the slowest lineups in baseball.

Looks gross to me

AIM : Option27

by Option27 on Nov 19, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

oops

you didn't even have owens.

AIM : Option27

by Option27 on Nov 19, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want to add Owens to my projected lineup..

I want to make sure I keep my lunch down.

Speed is nice but give me better hitters. But anyways, Cabrera is a huge upgrade in speed over Uribe. Uribe is one of the worst base-runners in baseball.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You don't like a .100 steal success

ratio? (I know, larry, we had horseshit leadoff hitters who hung him out to dry, but fer Chrissakes....)

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 19, 2007 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i know it's only nov...

... and you have to go with what you have...

... but I am nervous about a rookie (or near-rookie) like Richar leading off. This kid isn't Ellsbury. Most rookies get all mental about leading off. Maybe I'm just having a Nyls Nyman flashback. But for as touted as Nyman was, he flopped leading off for a mediocre Sox team and really never recovered. Even Brian Anderson had problems and he was batting at the other end of the order.

I hope Richar turns into Ray Durham, but you sure hate to put that expectation on somebody.

by ruffster on Nov 19, 2007 6:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't get the logic

Ok, so we're going to try and compete next year so we go and upgrade SS for one year of Cabrera. Well, alright, he's better than Uribe. But what about the starting rotation, you're replacing Garland with Floyd and trying to tell me that will improve your pitching? As far as improving the team next year it seems like a net wash at best.

Garland was just about our only real asset for trading, one year of a 90 OPS+ 33yr old is a really blah return.

"We've missed a little bit of that grind and edge and we've got to get that back." - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Nov 19, 2007 2:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Finally...

Maybe this marks the end of the Uribe era.

I think it was a good trade. I think Garland is damaged goods (Garcia, 2006) and is at best league-average at this point going forward.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 19, 2007 3:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

More Kenny.

"We're 100 percent committed to winning a championship in '08."

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 3:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

If the Red Sox don't re-sign Mike Lowell...

Crede for Coco Crisp might actually be a good realistic trade for both teams, even though I am not a huge Coco fan. However, I would like this lineup, although I'm not sure how realistic signing Andruw Jones would be...

LF Coco Crisp
SS Orlando Cabrera
DH Jim Thome
1B Paul Konerko
CF Andruw Jones
RF Jermaine Dye
3B Josh Fields
C A.J. Pierzynski
2B Danny Richar

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 3:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Lowell signed today.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/19/lowell.redsox.ap/index.html

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ESPN and SI

are reporting that Lowell and the Sawx have agreed on a 3 year, 37.5 million dollar deal

by jd23 on Nov 19, 2007 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Heh, well that screws that idea...

Well, send Juan Urine to the Cardinals for OF John Rodriguez and a project reliever to get his $4.5 million off the books.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Jones is a Boras client......

so stop fantasizing.

I'm a disgruntled Whitesox fan and I can't spell

by chisox on Nov 20, 2007 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Our team will continue to get older...

On WSCR 670 "The Score", Kenny said that he acquired Orlando Cabrera with the intent of signing him long-term.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 4:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Kenny is still sore

at being unable to get Vizquel. So now we'll have Cabrera until he's 40.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 4:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If crede is still traded...

any chance of Uribe or Cabrera sliding over to 3rd while Fields patrols LF?

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 19, 2007 4:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why do people think that Uribe's fat ass...

can play 3B? And why would anyone even want his bat in the lineup anyways? At this point, both Crede and Uribe are with the White Sox for one more season. Why would you choose Uribe at 3B over Crede? And Cabrera is a natural SS. Why mess with that?

If you want to trade Crede, Fields plays 3B, and we have to acquire a LF'er. Otherwise, Crede plays 3B and Fields plays LF. It's as simple as that.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for your opinion, SSH2005, anyone else?

Uribe at 3B was just something that ran through my head when I considered that Field is a poor defender at 3B (at least at this point in his career) and the fact that Uribe has a strong arm and some range.

I didn't hear anyone else talk about Uribe's fat ass at 3B, nor am I advocating this move, but it's a possibility that came up when I was considering what happens if the Sox cannot trade Uribe.

You know, considering at all sides of the situation.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 19, 2007 4:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the bat is one thing

but uribe can certainly play 3B. i don't know why that would even be open to question.

as for why uribe over crede: perhaps a team is willing to offer more for crede. who knows.

by larry on Nov 19, 2007 4:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's why this trade looks bad...

Last offseason, Kenny turned down Jason Hirsh, Willy Taveras, and Taylor Buchholz from the Rockies for Garland. During last season, Kenny turned down Edgar Renteria and a pitching prospect for Garland. Now, Kenny settles for one season of Orlando Cabrera for Garland.

Talk about selling low...

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 4:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

there was never

a garland-renteria deal. it was buehrle for renteria.

by Jbasic89 on Nov 19, 2007 4:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ain't what Cheat says in his post.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 4:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

umm

, Kenny turned down Edgar Renteria and a pitching prospect for Garland.

sound like it

by Jbasic89 on Nov 19, 2007 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right.

You said there was never a Renteria-Garland deal in the works, but only Buehrle.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

WSCR 670 "The Score" is also reporting..

that Kenny said he will try to trade Juan Uribe.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 4:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Chicago tribune live

Kenny Williams just said that jerry owens will be leading off for us next year.

If you die with your eyes open you deserved it.

by Soulja Boy on Nov 19, 2007 5:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Jesus Christ, I am going to be sick...

He is going to sign Hunter, trade Crede, stick Fields at 3B, and stick Owens in LF.

Brutal.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 7:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He said he didnt

know who would be starting 3rd next year. I agree though I would hate to see Crede not playing 3rd for us.

If you die with your eyes open you deserved it.

by Soulja Boy on Nov 19, 2007 8:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No.

2007 was brutal. This is an upgrade, no matter the financials. It'll be a better team, just not a division-winning team.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 19, 2007 10:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This blog is depressing

I have no idea how this trade will work out, nor what the other moves that will be made this off season.
But if this blog existed before the '05 season, KW's moves would have been characterized as terrible.

by bingodog on Nov 19, 2007 11:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

If you want pathetic homer-talk...

and to hear how the White Sox are the best organization in baseball with a great farm system, go to WSI.

2005 is over. Get a grip.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 11:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"2005 is over. Get a grip."

So says the man with the name SSH2005. hehe

by Hazymania on Nov 20, 2007 12:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good point, hehe.

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 12:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't agree

Considering the amount of money the Sox saved by trading Lee, I don't think it would have been looked at as being terrible.

A case in point is the discussions regarding the Garland trade. Although most people wanted more in return, you'll see that considering the money saved, the VORPs of Garland and Cabrera, and the potential compensation draft picks for Cabrera (assuming that Kenny doesn't sign him long term), people here seem to be alright with the trade.

Even the uber-homer hanging around here likes the trade.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 20, 2007 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Be glad Kenny's not Ned Colletti

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7466954?MSNHPHMA

Not even a crackhead would do this deal.

I'm a disgruntled Whitesox fan and I can't spell

by chisox on Nov 20, 2007 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's funny

This blog did exist (in a different form) prior to the '05 season. The only move I heavily criticized (though not on my blog at the time) was the Iguchi acquisition. I didn't think it was a prudent signing, not with Polanco, and his more certain defense and offensive output, (briefly) available.

Pierzynski was a freakin' coup (though, I again didn't write about it)
Thought Hermanson wasn't going to be much help to a bullpen that I really liked with Cotts, Politte, Marte, and Shingo. But I really liked what I saw from him at the end of the year as the Giants closer.
I loved the El Duque signing.
I wrote "JD will outproduce Ordonez"
After the Lee trade, I posted that the Sox would come out ahead (they would be adding wins) as long as they put the money back into a real 5th starter and other areas (namely one of Clement/Odalis Perez, and Polanco).
I also didn't see the need to extend Politte, I remember being against that. He was signed for '05 already, there was no need to give him guaranteed money in '06. Turns out he sucked in '06 and was great in '05.

But go ahead. Keep telling me what my opinion would have been.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. It happens quite often. I didn't think the Sox were going to win the '05 World Series in November of '04. Neither did you.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 21, 2007 2:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs