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Cheat's Take: Thome Deal

These are the posts that are the most fun to go back and look at a year or two down the line; the post where you break down the hours-old trade down to last detail and provide your opinion on it one way or the other. -- In the past, I've been wrong on Garcia (I substantially overrated Olivo) and right about the Contreras and Pods deals. -- First the specifics.

Phillies Get: Aaron Rowand, Gio Gonzalez, and a PTBNL (Daniel Haigwood)
White Sox Get: Jim Thome and cash, which limits Thome's salary to $8M/year

(I'm speculating that the PTBNL is Haigwood, and not Gio as otherwise reported. Haigwood is on the 40-man roster, and would have to be put on Philly's 40-man as soon as he is named. With the Rule 5 draft coming up in a few weeks, the teams will wait until after the draft to give Philly some added flexibility)

I'm sure many White Sox fans are upset at the loss of Aaron Rowand. He was a fan favorite for his style of play, and it didn't hurt that he was the biggest Chicago Bears fan on the planet. (I actually heard him him say something to the effect of "this is the coolest thing in my life" on Sunday as he was on the sidelines during the Bears victory over the Panthers.) But Rowand's departure should not cripple the Sox.

In dealing Rowand, the Sox were dealing from a position of strength. They have Brian N. Anderson poised to take over for Rowand in center, and Podsednik, Jerry Owens, and Chris Young all as options should he falter. ESPN 1000's Bruce Levine has now shot down all of the Juan Pierre rumors, saying Anderson is the Sox 2006 center fielder. Anderson was rated the White Sox top prospect in '05 by Baseball America,( though they misspell Brandon McCarthy, so what do they know) giving him high marks for his defense. Overall he profiles to be very similar to Aaron Rowand. I expect his '06 season to mirror Rowand's '05. -- Here are the ZiPS projections for Rowand and Anderson.

Name P AVG OBP SLG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS Rowand cf .284 .343 .448 151 525 77 149 32 3 16 69 33 97 14 5 Anderson cf .263 .323 .425 130 464 68 122 21 3 16 57 38 113 6 3

The Sox DHs and #3 hitters were among the worst in baseball in 2005. The Sox needed to get more left-handed while increasing their OBP and maintaining/adding power. Thome fills the White Sox biggest needs in one fell swoop.

AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS DH 578 75 141 25 2 33 269 107 56 122 4 5 .244 .310 .465 .776 #3 642 82 150 27 1 30 269 103 54 140 7 8 .234 .296 .419 .715

Those are numbers that Thome should be able to improve upon. Thome doesn't figure to play the field at all, rather taking Frank Thomas' spot as the Chicago DH. Yes, Sox fans, The Big Hurt has played his last game in a White Sox uniform. With the cash they received from the Phillies, the Sox will be paying Thome $8M annually. At this point in their respective careers, it appears that Thome is more likely to be healthy for a full season than Frank Thomas, and that's what this move came down to.

In terms of Major League talent, the Sox gave up a player who they feel is easily replaceable, and filled their biggest need. It appears to be a win for the Sox. From the Phillies perspective, they were able to unload an aging injured player who they felt was easily replaceable, and got prospects for eating part of Thome's contract. It appears to be a win for the Phillies.

Assuming the Sox sign Konerko to play first base, which appears very likely at this point, the '06 Sox team appears better on paper than the '05 Sox team that won the World Series. It's hard to be too critical of this trade when looking purely at the '06 season.

When you take a look at the prospects, however, the deal swings heavily in favor of the Phillies. Gio Gonzalez was our #3 rated prospect, and Daniel Haigwood our #6, in our community prospect list. -- I said right in that very link that I would trade Haigwood over the other three lefties because of his GB/FB ratio which will make it more difficult to succeed at USCF, so I was actually happy to see him included in the trade, despite him being one of "my guys." Seeing Gio's name attached to the trade, however, has a bit more sting to it. He projects to be a #2 starter in the bigs, and has some dominant stuff. He's just 19 and was already pitching well in high-A. In the long term, this trade will be judged on how many victories Gonzalez goes on to post in a Phillies uniform, or if the White Sox are able to make another post-season run on the strength of the Konerko-Thome tandem.

Overall, I like the acquisition of Thome, and I think that Rowand was the right chip to use to get him. I just think the Sox gave up a little bit too much in terms of prospects. However, prospects are just that; prospects. They are there to be used through development and trades to improve your major league club. And that's what the Sox have done.

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west coast thoughts from a friend
Podsednik is a center fielder. He was moved to keep Rowand happy. Thome's not big ticket for the Sox, who are paying less than half his salary over the life of the contract. And the best way to run a successful team that doesn't have the payroll of NY or Boston is the way Schuerholz has run the Braves the last 15 years. Win, keep a nucleus, but keep changing the roster, too. Build around a handful of pitchers and two or three every day players, and everyone else is tradeable.

by solbro on Nov 23, 2005 7:21 PM CST reply actions  

God, I hope not
Pods may have been a CFer in the past, but he never will be (on a permanent basis) in a Sox uniform. Pods has speed, but no insticts, and no arm. He's best suited where he can be hidden.

I have it from two different sources that I trust that Brian Anderson is actually a better fielder than Aaron Rowand. I've tempered their excitement, which could just be excited scouts projecting future ability, and think that he'll be a plus center fielder, with the opportunity to be great.

These same people were claiming that Jeremy Reed's defense was adequate, listing his ceiling for his range as Mark Kotsay. He went on to be one of the best defensive CFers in the AL last year. The White Sox have something of a pipeline of fine defensive OFers going right now. I have no reason to beleive that Anderson will be any different.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 23, 2005 7:55 PM CST up reply actions  

You're correct about Pods
He is barely an adequate leftfielder; I'd hate to think of him playing center full-time. Too many people -- especially in the Chicago media -- seem to think that just because Podsednik is fast, he is a good defensive player. He definitely is not, for exactly the reasons you mention above.

Kenny Williams has shown himself to be an aggressive GM who is not afraid to take risks. And while many of his moves have been terrific (e.g. Uribe, Contreras, Pierzynski), some of them have been terrible (e.g. Todd Ritchie, David Wells, Billy Koch). I guess after last season he deserves the benefit of the doubt here.

But this is a pretty major shake-up of a team that just won the franchise's first world championship in 88 years with a key element of their success attributed to team chemistry. I hope it works out, but it leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I'm going to miss Rowand and the Big Hurt.

by lofistew on Nov 24, 2005 12:41 PM CST up reply actions  

The S word
You sure Thome's not a steroid boy breaking down? If so he's Sammy Sosa II. At least Baltimore was only stuck for 1 year.
Comonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn You White Sox!

by zokmaad on Nov 23, 2005 8:56 PM CST reply actions  

I'm sad.
Can't we just freeze time and stay on October 27th, 2005?  That way, we don't have to worry about trades, contracts, the future, anything, just about our World Champion White Sox.

I need to see that MLB Film tomorrow to cheer me up.

by CWSKeith on Nov 23, 2005 8:59 PM CST reply actions  

prospects got you down?
Cuz the current White Sox team is better than the one we had yesterday, and it appears that the '06 version will be better than the '05 team, on paper at least.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 23, 2005 9:02 PM CST up reply actions  

bubkus
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/13211982.htm
As for the steroid accusations?

"Laughable," Thome said. "I've heard all that stuff and people have asked me about it. Here's what I tell them - go look at my family photo. Everybody in my family is big. If I ever took a steroid, I'd blow up so much I wouldn't be able to swing a bat. I've never even taken a supplement in my life."

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 23, 2005 8:59 PM CST reply actions  

Things I like and don't like
...not that anyone should care. But I like that Williams wasn't afraid to break up a WS team. I like that he saw that biggest offensive flaw was left handed OPS in the heart of the order (not more speed). I like that he's not afraid to give Anderson a shot in CF (apparently).

I don't like acquiring a 35 year-old with 3 years on his contract and a bad back. I don't like giving up both Haigwood and Gonzales. And I don't like that both Thomas and Rowand, the two players I liked the most, are done with the Sox. It may be best for the success of the team, but it still is a sad thing.

All in all, I don't like the trade mostly because of Thome's age and health. But I was wrong about the Garcia trade, so here's hoping Thome cranks out a 1.000 OPS next seasonn.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 23, 2005 9:02 PM CST reply actions  

since we're gonna look back at this
I was cautiously supportive of the trade until it was confirmed that Gio was a part of it. You can now mark me down in the "we gave up too much" camp. I do think this makes us a better team this year, but weakens us thereafter. I sincerely hope I'm wrong with TINSTAPP and all.

by bhoov on Nov 23, 2005 9:12 PM CST reply actions  

what would you rather have?
another world series run or a bunch of decent, .500 years in a row starting next year?

how soon we forget the cleveland indians. the indians - according to just about everyone - were a team that was waiting to blossom in 2006. in 2005, they almost chased us down. we have starting pitching - the most important ingredient to success - right now. even the most optimistic amongst us knows that we're not going to keep these five guys for long.

maybe i'm wrong to trust KW but i think we've still got some pretty good pitching prospects for down the line when we do lose garland, buerhle, contreras, etc. we're set up to win now. i was scared of the indians in '06. with 40 homers and 100+ RBIs sitting in the #3 now, i feel a hell of a lot better about our chances next year.

by larry on Nov 23, 2005 10:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Its about the $$
That's why it took Gio. I don't think Philly eats that much contract otherwise. KW wants Thome. Does not want to pay him. He gives up his prospect and assumes time is on his side in terms of the rotation.

He still has a pitcher to trade. Maybe he's thinking he'll reload that way.

Comonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn You White Sox!

by zokmaad on Nov 23, 2005 9:19 PM CST reply actions  

How healthy is Thome?
If anyone pays for Baseball Prospectus, I'd love to know what Will Carroll had to say about Thome's elbow surgery, back problems, and his prospects for recovery. Actually, any info that isn't just Phillie's trading hype ("best shape of his life" at age 35...sure) would interesting.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 24, 2005 12:13 AM CST reply actions  

i guess this is still hype but...
article in tomorrow's tribune has thome's high school coach saying he's worked hard on his rehab and is in great shape (i think he may have used the line you mention, though).

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051123thome,1,124405.story?page= 1&coll=cs-home-headlines

by larry on Nov 24, 2005 12:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Will Carroll on Thome after his August surgery:
"All in all, it's not that serious in the long term. If the symptoms are taken care of, the pain should be gone well before spring training and we'll all get a chance to see if the apparent erosion of Thome's skills was the pain or if it was a true measure. My guess is somewhere in between."

I think this is what we all have been suspecting.

by MRKARNO on Nov 24, 2005 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

thoughts
I've been extremely busy lately, so I knew nothing of this until just now.  

Wow.  I'm extremely excited/scared.  I love the addition of Thome, he has been extremely consistent outside of last year.  I'm going to trust that he'll recover from his injuries and put up #s close to his career averages.  I agree with most here that Rowand (although one of my favorites) is worth trading with the current market and Anderson waiting in the wings.  The addition of Gio hurts my soul.  I ranked him extremely high in my prospect ratings.

Overall, I guess I'm a fan of this deal.  If Konerko is signed, the line up looks dangerous.

Podsednik
Iguchi
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Crede
Pierzynski
Anderson
Uribe

I would entertain signing Lofton, if he is fairly cheap.  If Anderson doesn't work out, Lofton would be a great 2nd option.

I was just talking to Cheat and if one of these occurs, this deal ends up being a poor choice.
a) Thome never recovers
b) Rowand puts up 04 #s from now on
c) Gio becomes an Ace.

Now, I already pointed out Thome's consistency.  I doubt Rowand will pu up 04 #s, he looked pretty lost this year.  Gio is atleast 2 years away from being an everyday starter, chances are he doesn't become an ace.

It is a risk, but a calculated one.  

In conclusion, I approve.

AIM: shaftr01

blog

by shaftr on Nov 24, 2005 12:30 AM CST reply actions  

Even if
d) The Sox win another pennent?
Comonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn You White Sox!

by zokmaad on Nov 24, 2005 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Small sample size I know...
but in his only series at U.S. Cellular Field as it stands today, Thome posted these numbers in 2004:

5 hits in 14 at bats, of which 4 left the yard. Walked once and drove in 10 for a staggering line of .357/.400/1.214

So, based on my highly sophisticated calculations, he should be headed for about 70 dongs and 180 rbi's at Comiskular alone, right? Right?

But, seriously, questionable trade if Paulie isn't coming back as well.  If he is, I like it a ton though, so for now I am holding back judgment on this one.

by brianekst on Nov 24, 2005 3:32 AM CST reply actions  

Call me a sentimental bastard.....
....but I hope Cheat's wrong about the Big Hurt. If he's signed to a cheap deal (if anything but to check his ego) and Paulie's brought back, how would that be a bad thing? Given Guillen's penchant for playing righty-lefty, a Thomas-Thome tandem could keep both oldies healthy the entire season. Until the ankle break, wasn't Thomas putting up big numbers? I like that KW is preparing in case Thomas isn't healthy, but I don't think that Frank should be written off entirely.

As far as trading Rowand away, I liked the guy and his defense, but his bat su-diddley-ucked. Anderson hit and defended well enough during his brief fling with the Big Leagues. Kudos for Kenny.

by thatshortkid on Nov 24, 2005 4:20 AM CST reply actions  

Here's a thought...
Joe Crede just lost his best friend on the team, and it seemed to me that he had a fragile enough psyche already without having to deal with this loss.

Does Joe go into a shell and hit .215 with 10 HRs and 45 RBIs?

Or does he have enough big-league experience to act professionally.

Wasn't Joe known for having a quiet, almost introverted, clubhouse demeanor until he and Rowand became buddies?

So this question deals with chemistry, but specifically, Joe Crede.

How do you expect him to react?

And one other thing...

I caught part of Aaron Rowand's interview with Jesse Rogers on the SCORE last night, and he sounded crushed and on the verge of tears, but he was very classy, thanking the fans and even the media for their wonderful support.

AND THANK YOU AARON ROWAND FOR CRASHING INTO WALLS FOR YOUR TEAM, FOR SACRIFICING YOUR BODY FOR YOUR PITCHERS, AND FOR ONE MEMORABLE WEEKEND IN NEW YORK WHEN YOU PUT YOUR NAME ON THE MAP. YOU WILL BE MISSED ON THE SOUTH SIDE AND ARE WELCOME BACK ANYTIME!!!!!

James

by james@lifeinthecell on Nov 24, 2005 4:43 AM CST reply actions  

I believe it
I saw him interviewed just a few days before the trade, and he was asked about the rumors, and his response was basically that he loved this city, he loved the Bears, and he loved his teammates.

Rowand was a fantastic guy, and I wish him all the best.  Seeing him mic'd for the MLB video tonight will be bittersweet.

by chrome on Nov 24, 2005 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Is it just me...
Or is Aaron Rowand all over the world Series DVD.
Kinda makes watching it a little bittersweet.
James

by james@lifeinthecell on Nov 24, 2005 7:56 PM CST up reply actions  

More thoughts
I'll comment a little more since I was able to sleep on the idea.    From a talent standpoint, it hurts to lose Gio.  I think today the bigger hurt is the loss of Rowand, he has always been one of my favorite Sox players and just reading his comments makes me sad he is leaving.  I know logistically this means Thomas isn't coming back, but I'm not going to let myself believe that until he signs with another team or retires.

Although, if Thome comes in and posts a .900+ OPS in 145 games for 2-3 years, the deal is great.

AIM: shaftr01

blog

by shaftr on Nov 24, 2005 12:56 PM CST reply actions  

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