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Sox still stalking young pitching; Front office doing damage control

Anything exciting happen today?

Depending on who you believe, Jon Garland was a Houston Astro today if not for a poor medical report. Officially, the Sox say they weren't close to a deal, but most sources seem to indicate otherwise.

As of this hour, there is no deal, but the Sox will revisit the trade if Houston is ready to part with Jason Hirsh. Keep a watchful eye on Andy Pettitte, as he may be the proverbial first domino in this deal. Reportedly, the Yankees are offering $15-17M for '07 with a guaranteed second year, while the Astros have only offered him a 1-year $12M deal. If Pettitte gets that NY kind of feeling, the first thing Tim Purpura will do is speed dial Kenny.

* * * * *

One day after decrying that the White Sox were arrogant to think they could disassemble their WORLD SERIES ROTATION, Phil Rogers got back on his high horse and spouted this gem as a reason against dealing Garland.

The White Sox are playing with fire breaking up the starting rotation that went 9-1 with four complete games and a 2.71 ERA in the 12-game run to a ticker tape parade in 2005.
Wouldn't the Sox be playing with fire if they brought back an aging rotation that posted a combined 4.63ERA in '06 featuring three pitchers with declining strikeout rates, two with diminished velocity, and another who spent two stints on the DL? Why are we holding 12 games from '05, 75% of which were against BAD offenses, in higher regard than the more recent 159 games from '06 that resulted in a third place finish?

Add Rick Morrissey to the growing horde of Tribune writers ostensibly calling the Sox cheap. Would you expect anything different from the Trib, owners of the crosstown team that's doled out over $200M in contracts to mostly mediocre talent this off season?

* * * * *

Because of columns like above, talk radio hosts using words like "white flag," and message board posters threatening to rip up their season tickets, Kenny and Jerry have gone on the offensive through MLB.com.

I don't really feel like the offensive is necessary. The fans that equate names with wins will always hold players from the 2005 World Series if far too high of regard. Kenny and Jerry shouldn't have to explain why they are making moves to make the Sox more competitive over the long haul.

Over the years, one of the things I often get accused of as I run this blog is that I sometimes act like I know how to run the club better than those in charge. I think the fact that I don't feel an explanation is necessary at present says all you need to know about the direction the Sox are headed.

* * * * *

Garland was a popular commodity at the Winter Meetings, drawing interest from a number of clubs. Because he has two years left on his contract, the Sox are looking to get more in return in any proposed trade. According to the Baltimore Sun, the Orioles were interested in Garland, but balked when they asked for both the fireballing Daniel Cabrera and AA lefty Garrett Olson in return.

In the proposed Astros deal, I feel it's my duty to plead for Kenny to forget about Taveras. His skills, like Podsednik's, aren't worth giving up talent to obtain. Though Taveras is a better overall player than Pods thanks to his ability to play CF and throw the ball farther than 100 feet on the fly.

If the reports are true, and you're uneasy with Bucholtz' medical history, drop him from the trade along with Taveras. Ask for Corky instead. He's under control for 4 more years, hits left-handed pitching, can play multiple positions, and appears (to me, at least) to be primed for a breakout season at the plate. Hirsh and Corky would be quite a haul for Garland and the Sox.

0 recs | Comment 54 comments

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Re: Buchholz
Why is this guy a target?  Nothing indicates he'll be anything worthwhile in the major leagues -- OK walk rate, but low K rate at all levels, bad HR rate, hasn't dominated since High-A ball.  What gives?

by Sox Machine on Dec 8, 2006 12:26 AM CST   0 recs

My hope is he's not
When I heard "the Sox made a trade" today at lunch and saw Bucholz attached, I was so pissed that I refused the pull up the site until this afternoon, by which time the commotion had died down.

Cabrera and the AA lefty is better return than the originally proposed deal. I would say my Burke/Hirsh proposal is pretty similar in terms of value.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 8, 2006 12:36 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I made Keith angry yesterday...
...with my disappointed posts in regard to the Garcia trade. So, to make up for it let me say that I like trading Garland for Hirsh, Taveras, and Buchholz. I'd like it even better if the Sox included Pods. I'd like it even better than that if Taveras wasn't included and the Sox went out and  found someone that can get on base to play the OF.

As much as Taveras is just not good, the fact that he can play CF would actually be a significant boost to the offense if a competent LF bat could be brought in.

Anyway, I like Burke and Hirsh a even more. It would be great if that actually happened.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 8, 2006 12:44 AM CST   0 recs

Cheat, I agree 100%, especailly about Burke...
I would LOVE a Garland for Burke/Hirsh. I have been calling for Burke the last few weeks on Soxtalk. It would be a perfect fit, and if Iguchi can't be brought back, Burke fills in nicely.

Get it done Kenny.

by Tony82087 on Dec 8, 2006 12:46 AM CST   0 recs

Houston won't do it as proposed
but they might budge if we sent along some cash, and maybe our own OF/IF combination in Mackowiak.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 8, 2006 12:54 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

One bench player must go.

Given the current roster configuration, one backup IF has to be moved anyway. To me, Mack or Gload would be the obvious choice, as both are leftys that can't play the OF real well (although I thought Mack was OK out of CF, it sounds like the Sox are taking his OF glove away from him). I'd like to keep Cintron, as there's no real backup in the system if a middle infielder goes down.

I assume that Houston would prefer Mack, and I'd rather keep Gload anyway since he's cheaper and can hit.

And if Burke or Tavares comes back to the Sox, I'd be happy to throw in Pods as well.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 8, 2006 10:18 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Wow....
You and I are working on the same wave lengths tonight.

I was looking of at the Astros main site, and while it's not that updated, looking at the depth chart for the 'Stros, the OF depth is pretty weak. With Mack out at CF for the Sox this year, I don't see him getting many AB's, yet he is still a valuable player in the league.

The money saved on both Garcia and Garland could be sent over to Houston( I dont even think I need to clarify I dont mean all of it, thats obviously not the case, maybe a couple mil) for Hirsh and Burke

Garland-Cash-Mack-Hirsh and Burke.

We get another McCarthy(probably a little better than Mac) and a guy that is young, and could become invaluable to the club in terms of flexibility.

by Tony82087 on Dec 8, 2006 12:59 AM CST   0 recs

Garland for Hirsh + Burke...
I do that in a second.  We get a stud pitching prospect and a guy who can play LF and CF next season and then move back to 2B if we lose Iguchi to free agency.

by SSH2005 on Dec 8, 2006 7:17 AM CST   0 recs

Count me in
Kenny if you ever venture to the boards. (In a dark corner where no one is looking) if you can get Hirsh do it man..

by Tdogg on Dec 8, 2006 10:48 AM CST   0 recs

On another subject,
it's been a tough year for SS's named Uribe living in the Dominican.  Jose Uribe, ex-Giants' SS died in a car wreck at 3 AM today - 47 years old.

Wow.

by winningugly on Dec 8, 2006 11:28 AM CST   0 recs

Ugly, did you ever end up hooking up with
K Will and K Winslow?
Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Dec 8, 2006 11:43 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

unfortunate news
but i'm wondering why it merited "breaking news" coverage on cnn.com and now a headline.

by the way, he is a distant cousin of juan.

by larry on Dec 8, 2006 11:54 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Maybe in this market, he had been in talks to
come back and sign a deal for about $8 million a year.
Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Dec 8, 2006 12:00 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Lawyer cold, man
:0)

No hook-up - didn't even try, as I was jammed at work (no TRO's!) and heard it was the veritable zoo, as the lobby was jammed after 1 AM.

Weak, I know.

by winningugly on Dec 8, 2006 1:00 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

When all of the columnists...
are saying Kenny is a cheap idiot, I know he's probably doing something right.

by DeeDubs24 on Dec 8, 2006 12:05 PM CST   0 recs

it's sort of funny
on the one hand, we've got columnists decrying the ridiculous money doled out. on the other, we've got KW being called cheap. we'll see who is smarter in the long run - exactly why snap judgments from talking heads are pretty silly.

by larry on Dec 8, 2006 12:08 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

indeed
rick morrissey's column is an embarrassment.  he says, "until a few days ago, the sox had the best starting rotation in baseball."  yeah, it must have been their inability to score runs that doomed them to third place in the division in 2006.  

what is the point of a patently false statement like that?  the sox were 15th in baseball, 8th in the AL, and 4th in their own division in starter ERA last year.  they're replacing a starter with a 4.53 ERA with a pitcher who's era as a starter last year was 3.86 (4.68 overall).  And yet, according to Morrissey, "the rush to get 23-year-old Brandon McCarthy into the rotation borders on the bizarre. He has shown flashes of talent but just that--flashes. Oh, wait. It's not so bizarre. McCarthy comes cheap."

yeah, i can't believe how stupid it is to replace an older starter who appears to be losing effectiveness with a younger, cheaper guy who will likely provide similar production and has the potential to be better.

i know it's seemingly the job of sports columnists to be incendiary, but can't they at least try to stick to some shred of fact or logic?  the byline on that one should have been rick mariotti.
 

by Ryno on Dec 8, 2006 12:26 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Incorrect facts
I usually take great pride in emailing the columnists and calling them on their printing faulty stats as facts. Most never respond but once Roeper from the Sun Times wrote back and admitted his lazy ways (listening to others spout falsehoods). I'll always respect him for that. The Morrissey thing is typical though.

by Tdogg on Dec 8, 2006 3:02 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Garland to the Astros may still be alive...
The Astros believe there's still a chance that they'll get Jon Garland from the White Sox.
The belief that the White Sox got cold feet because of concerns over Taylor Buchholz's health seems to be widespread. Buchholz, though, says there's nothing wrong with him, and if the White Sox still don't want him, it looks like the Astros like Garland enough that they'll consider working around it, perhaps by offering Fernando Nieve or Matt Albers instead.

Source:  Houston Chronicle


Hirsh, Nieve, and Taveras for Garland?  DO IT KENNY, DO IT NOW!!!

by SSH2005 on Dec 8, 2006 12:11 PM CST   0 recs

He only gave up 6 dingers in his last 21 starts...
and three came in one game at the Cell against the Spankees.
Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Dec 8, 2006 12:23 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

slice and dice
what about those other starts?

weren't your seats out in left? a few of those deep balls to left in the cell are home runs down there.

by larry on Dec 8, 2006 12:29 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I suppose that's true...but overall, isn't
the Cell the most home run happy place on earth? Plus, he'll be facing much weaker offenses out there.
Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Dec 8, 2006 1:44 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

i just find it interesting
because the astros have recently stocked themselves with pitchers who historically (and during their time in houston) didn't give up lots of home runs - probably in large measure because of the short porch. i would have thought jon would have been more attractice to a team that played in a less hitter friendly park.

by larry on Dec 8, 2006 1:54 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Would Hirsh be included?
This is the guy that reported the trade as Buchholz&Taveras for Garland. He filed the original report, and I don't think he has ever said Hirsh would be included. Numerous other places have, so hopefully that's the case.

I doubt Nieve would be sent with Hirsh because those are the 2 top pitching prospects in the Astros organization.

Anyway, I wouldn't ming seeing Garland dealt for someone like Hirsh. He could be the 5th starter next season and hopefully wouldn't be terrible.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 8, 2006 12:51 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Does anyone
have a clear idea what happened?  Half the reports say the Astros balked at Hirsh, half the reports say the Sox balked at Buchholz's balky shoulder, and after all this time there's still no convergence in these reports.

You gotta think it's the former, but I still wish the Buchholz + Taveras stories would die.

by jackie hayes on Dec 8, 2006 1:50 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Forgot to mention
And forget where I saw it, but the Yankees, also in the market for a backup catcher, let it be know that they will fill that position from within the organization yesterday.

Mirabelli will end up back with the Red Sox, so the Sox should have their pick of leftovers. Hall/Molina etc.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 8, 2006 12:16 PM CST   0 recs

Who can catch Charlie Knucks
if "Superman" Mirabelli signs w/ Bosox?

by winningugly on Dec 8, 2006 3:04 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

anyone else
not sure if you're serious, but we certainly don't want mirabelli.

by larry on Dec 8, 2006 3:10 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Not serious
but who excels at catching a flutterball?  Who was it that was driven from Boston, necessitating "Cancer Bat" Mirabelli's signing?  Was it Josh Paul?  (I can't remember.)

by winningugly on Dec 8, 2006 3:17 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

You've got the Josh part right
but it was Bard, and he hit like Shakespear. That doesn't make sense, but I wanted to make a Bard reference.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 8, 2006 3:19 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Some backup catcher love...
The Rockies have yet to decide whether they'll tender a contract to arbitration-eligible catcher Yorvit Torrealba.
The club has serious concerns about Torrealba's ability to catch after he missed so much time last season with shoulder troubles. It's possible the Rockies will drop Torrealba and sign Rod Barajas to replace him, though that's not an upgrade if Torrealba is healthy.

Source:  Denver Post


It's starting to look like Kenny knew what he was doing when he waited on a backup catcher.

by SSH2005 on Dec 8, 2006 12:47 PM CST   0 recs

The only reason I'd like Taveras at all
would be that it likes gives Pods the kiss of death.  I think even Kenny is smart enough to realize that two weak hitting outfields is atleast one too many.  

If the Sox can then keep Anderson on the bench, it starts to look like an even better move.  

by wite on Dec 8, 2006 1:48 PM CST   0 recs

why trade garland? is there any upside?
I don't get it

garland is 27, in '05 he posted a 3.5 era, in '06 his era jumped to 4.5 due to his bad start
I'm very confident he can post a 3.5 in '07

now cabrera is only 2 years younger, olson 4,
hirsh 3, buchholz 2 years

but whereas garland is more of a sure thing these guys aren't,
kenny said out of 3 prospects usually the 2 don't become what you want
let's say 1 in 2 for this argument
(is the reality different?)

so why risk it? because hirsh can become a 3.5 guy?
you already have a 3.5 guy!!!
what, buchholz? he posted a 6-minus era in the NL
I see him posting a 6-7 era in the AL
what taveras? aren't mack and pods enough to get him?

now, if you are going to trade garland
if the yankee$ can get 3 pitchers (one kinda like a health hirsh) for 2 years of a 38 year banged-up bat, kenny should ask for a hell of a lot more

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 8, 2006 1:48 PM CST   0 recs

furthermore
are we such a small-market cash-strapped team that we can't afford a jon garland?
who we are? the pirates?

can someone explain this to me?
I don't understand it...

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 8, 2006 2:00 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Quit believing everything you read in the paper
start believing everything you read from me ;)
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 8, 2006 3:09 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

yes, I do that sometimes
and then I start getting into a state of semi-panic!

the 2  guys I don't wanna see gone are b-mac and garland
buehrle will re-join the list if he doesn't do '06 again

and from a 'sox guys' perspective: crede and AJ

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 8, 2006 7:43 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Wiz, it's Friday
Go have a belt or two with your buddies and calm down.  It's like religion - there is a certain amount of faith you have to have when you are not privvy to the machinations of the deal.  

To what do we owe this faith?  How about the FIRST CHICAGO WORLD SERIES TITLE IN 88 YEARS!  If freaking Joe Pa and Bobby Bowden can keep their gigs on a lifetime of goodwork, let's give KW a little slack for 6 years of good (if imperfect) stewardship.  The Scrubs and, truth be told, everyone else, are spending $ like drunken sailors and having heart attacks (almost) during the process.  And we still own more titles than they.  

I don't want to go down that path.  Perspective, my man.

by winningugly on Dec 8, 2006 3:03 PM CST   0 recs

If you guys want a good laugh
Take a listen to The Cheat give a scouting report to the Philly Phans over at The Good Phight.

I always sound like I just smoked a bowl and am in need of some Doritos. That's normal.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 8, 2006 3:14 PM CST   0 recs

Have you just smoked a bowl?
It's a little early for that, isn't it?

by winningugly on Dec 8, 2006 3:18 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

That's normal.
Most everyone I meet thinks I smoke up because of my tone and delivery. Though that clip on Good Phight is exaggerated because I had written down about 10 things to say about Garcia and paused to reference and recall everything from memory.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 8, 2006 3:21 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

BTW
nice fat chick Lane Bryant bra/panty ad right below your post.

Damn!  I have to go throw up now.

by winningugly on Dec 8, 2006 3:38 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Isn't it only fitting to sound like that
when talking about the Bonger?
Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Dec 8, 2006 3:22 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Olney
reporting Pettitte will be a Yankee.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 8, 2006 3:22 PM CST   0 recs

Kenny can almost name his price for Garland now...
the Astros will come calling soon...  if they haven't already.

by SSH2005 on Dec 8, 2006 3:31 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'm starting to be slightly concerned...
I was fine with Garcia being traded; he was the most frustrating guy on the staff this past year.  However, if Garland or Buehrle get traded it leaves a glaring, non-immediate replacement for a 5th starter.

by DeeDubs24 on Dec 8, 2006 3:38 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

McDougal avoids arb, signs 3-year deal
4th year option. No terms released as of yet.

I'll make a post when things become more official.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 8, 2006 3:38 PM CST   0 recs

Good news for those wanting to trade Garland...
ESPN's Buster Olney is reporting that Andy Pettitte will return to the Yankees on a one-year contract with an option for 2008.
The Houston Chronicle says it's a $16 million contract with a player option for 2008. The Astros seemed to know this was coming when they attempted to trade for Jon Garland. According to the Chronicle, they did add $2 million to their one-year, $12 million offer, an especially preposterous figure given that Garland is due $22 million over two years. The Yankees aren't exactly getting an ace here -- in his final six seasons in New York, the only year in which he had an ERA under 3.99 was one in which he was limited to 22 starts -- but Pettitte is a better bet than Ted Lilly and Gil Meche, even before accounting for the fact that he didn't require a long-term commitment. The club may now seek to dump as much of Carl Pavano's contract as possible. Also, it seems quite likely that Scott Proctor will remain in the pen.

The Houston Chronicle's Richard Justice believes that, with Andy Pettitte gone from Houston, the Red Sox may now be the favorites to land Roger Clemens, should the 44-year-old return for another season.
It seems way too early to suggest such a thing. Still, Justice is likely right that Clemens is less likely to rejoin the Astros with his good friend Pettitte gone. If the Red Sox fail to sign Daisuke Matsuzaka, it's a safe bet that they'll make a big-time run at Clemens, and it's believed they'd be more willing than the Yankees to let him show up only when he's pitching. However, having Pettitte in New York will also help the Yankees' case should they go after him. Of course, Clemens still hasn't decided whether he's pitching and seems unlikely to make an announcement anytime soon.

Source:  Houston Chronicle

by SSH2005 on Dec 8, 2006 3:40 PM CST   0 recs

Clemens
Not that I dont trust the Houston Chronicle. But why if he does decide to play, would he pass on playing with his son? I dont see it.

by Tdogg on Dec 8, 2006 4:20 PM CST   0 recs

A reasonable sportswriter!
Rob Neyer weighs in on the Sox-Phils trade:
More to the point, Williams has apparently taken note of the fact that even average starting pitchers these days are getting paid eight figures per season, which means there's absolutely nothing more valuable than a young, cheap starting pitcher who can post a league-average ERA (or even somewhat worse). Because if you don't have a few of those guys you wind up spending $40 million on Ted Lilly. (Really!)

by Ryno on Dec 8, 2006 5:47 PM CST   0 recs

The guy
I'd really like from the Astros is LHP Troy Patton. He'll start in AA and make it to AAA by the end of the yr. Patton and Nieve, who had decent numbers in the bullpen this yr for the Astros yet could be in the rotation for the Sox in 2007, as well next yr. Patton is one of the best LHP's in the minors, and supposedly has a higher ceiling than Hirsh.

by cfisk72 on Dec 8, 2006 6:37 PM CST   0 recs

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