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Perry makes an early case for Raines

In the aftermath of the 2007 Hall of Fame announcements, it seems I wasn't the only one with the '08 probables on their mind. Fox Sports' Dayn Perry makes a case for Tim Raines, and unfortunately harbors the same fears that he'll be on the outside looking a year from now.

As for Raines, he deserves induction. Raines played for 23 seasons, and he distinguished himself as a tremendous on-base threat and one of the best base-stealers of all-time. Consider his dossier:
  • He ranks 68th all-time with 2,605 career hits.
  • He ranks fifth all-time with 808 steals.
  • He ranks 32nd all-time with 1,330 walks.
  • He ranks 46th all-time with 1,571 runs scored.
  • He ranks 38th all-time with 3,977 times on base.
  • He ranks 98th all-time with 3,771 total bases.
  • He ranks 93rd all-time with 76 sac flies.
  • He ranks 46th all-time with 2,502 games played.
  • He led the league in steals four times, in doubles once, in runs scored twice, and in times on base three times.
  • He won one batting title and once led the league in on-base percentage.
  • He made seven All-Star teams and won one Silver Slugger award.
That, folks, is a Hall-of-Fame career. In the voters eyes, Raines might suffer from comparisons to Rickey Henderson, a player of similar yet superior skills. However, that's a bit unfair; Henderson is one of the 10 greatest players ever, so very few compare favorably to him. As well, Raines' career power numbers (170 homers, .425 SLG) don't stand out among left fielders. This isn't entirely fair since Raines did so many other things so well, but it might be held against him when it comes time for writers to fill out their ballots. Raines unquestionably deserves a plaque in Cooperstown, but it seems unlikely he'll get one on the first ballot.
It's never too early to start campaigning.

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Rock
I'm not entirely sure yet whether I think Rock is a HOFer. I will say that seeing a guy who is 46th all-time in games played tempers some of the other numbers (i.e., 68th all-time in  hits, etc.). It reminds me a bit of Hank Aaron's career: all-time home run leader really because he was able to play so long, not  because he was a league-leading masher every year. The striking difference: Aaron ended up #1 all-time as a result of his consistent longevity,  not #68, #5, #32, #46, #38, #98, or #93.

Also, although Raines was a seven-time All-Star, the last season in which he garnered that honor was in 1987; the man didn't play his last game until 2002. 1989 was the last year in which he got an MVP vote. That to me doesn't smack of all-time great.

Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Jan 12, 2007 6:04 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Aaron
yes he's probably the all time hr leader because of longevity but try not to ignore
25 all star games
13 times top 10 in mvp vote
3 gold gloves
2 batting titles
.305 life time ba

number 1 finishes in BA OPS Runs hits Slugging % total bases doubles and more

not once was he the oldest player in the league.

Try not to sell the hammer short. He's not in the HOF becasue he lasted 22 years. Not that you said that but it should be noted.

Raines #s are not even slightly noteworthy.

Comonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn You White Sox!

by zokmaad on Jan 13, 2007 4:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hank Aaron
other notables:
204 SB
7th best Power/Speed #
10th all time in Doubles
#1 in RBIs & XB Hits
Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jan 13, 2007 5:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Rock
I loved Tim Raines, a shame we didn't see him in his prime on the southside.

A greater tragedy is that a wayward baserunning incident has (snow)sealed his infamy.

by ChicagoPete on Jan 12, 2007 7:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Raines Hall of Fame Moniter Score
From Bill James - politics of glory

>100 likely Hall of Famer with >130 virtual cinch.

Raines is 90... blah blah blah

by Tdogg on Jan 12, 2007 8:46 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Hall of Fame Standards score
Likewise his HOF standards score is 46.8

Average  HOF score is 50 which puts Raines on the fringe. Standards is also a better predictor I think. Raines prob gets in after a few years and fierce Saber campaign.

by Tdogg on Jan 12, 2007 8:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

but...
James lists Raines as the 9th best LF of all time.  He's probably one of the best leadoff men of all time, plus if Lou Brock is in, then Raines should definitely be in.
Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jan 12, 2007 1:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

tell me when
rock reaches 3000 hits. then we can talk.

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 1:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lets talk
Brock (10332 At Bats):  3023 hits / 4238 Total Bases / 761 Walks / 938 SB (75% Success Rate) / 7823 Outs

Raines:  (8872 At Bats):  2605 hits / 3771 Total Bases / 1330 Walks / 808 SB (84% Success Rate) / 6670 Outs

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jan 12, 2007 1:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

my point
is that brock is in because he had 3000 hits. you can talk stolen bases or any other stat you want. 3000 hits are an automatic. raines doesn't get in because brock is. brock has the magic stat, raines doesn't.

if rock could have stayed healthy in the last decade of his career like brock did, he'd probably be automatic. unfortunately, he didn't. hall of very good.

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 2:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you saying that...
Raines won't get in, or you wouldn't vote for him?

I agree that he won't get in (at least not for a while), but the fact that he doesn't have 3000 hits is a pretty dumb reason not to vote for him, IMHO.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 2:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

read the thread
shaftr is saying raines should definitely get in because brock did. that's not the right argument because brock got in because he's got 3000 (and, if he hadn't had that 'comeback player of the year' year in 1979 and gotten 3000, he probably would have gotten in because he was the stolen base king). i don't think brock was necessarily a better player than raines - but he managed to get the numbers (hits and stolen bases) that raines didn't.

personally, i wouldn't vote for raines. i'm pretty ambivalent about it, though. it wouldn't surprise me if in 5 or 10 years a weak class is up and he slips in. he's borderline. for me, he's on the wrong side of the border.

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 2:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

actually
I was saying that I think Raines should get in.  My first post was just a few reasons why I think he should.  Who knows if he'll get voted in or not, I have no idea.

Oddly enough, I bought Bill James Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame book yesterday.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jan 12, 2007 2:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, like I said...
he's borderline. for me, he's on the wrong side of the border.

You can argue that his total offensive value over his career was almost equivalent to Tony Gwynn's.  Was Gwynn a "borderline" HOF candidate?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 3:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

rinse and repeat
3000 hits.

you get the magic numbers, you get in. otherwise, stand in line and pray. that's how it works.

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So...
You're saying that you would only vote for hitters who got 3000 hits?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 3:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

no, not even close
you read waaaaaaay to much into what i write. i'm wondering whether you actually read it. i said there are magic numbers - 3000 hits, 500 homers, 300 wins, a few other idiosyncratic milestones or combinations of numbers - that will get you in automatically. you asked whether gwynn was borderline. the answer - setting aside any other statistical analysis, debate, or whatever - is no frickin' way because he has a magic number: 3000 hits. i don't know where you get that i wouldn't vote for hitters unless they have 3000. duh, there's another obvious magic number for hitters.

if you don't have those magic numbers, you need a combination of many other stats and "intangibles" - and you probably need some good press, as well. there are plenty of other guys who are deserving and who are in the hall who didn't get the magic numbers. i just don't see anything in rock's numbers that make me think he deserves to be one of them.

on a practical level, another thing that will hurt him is that he played his main years in montreal - the sportswriters there don't have much pull or persuasion. he's going to need to get some advocates on board. we'll see in a few years if some momentum gets behind him.

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I'm not so much interested...
in what Hall voters think as what you think.

You don't think there's anything special about Raines' stats - well, they're pretty similar to Gwynn's.

If you were the sole HOF voter, would you put in Tim Raines?  Tony Gwynn?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 4:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Raines scores...
Which are close but missing are exactly because of the missing key benchmarks.

I wonder why there is not one for basestealing? The more I think about it the more he may be a candidate for the vet committee (if they still have a vote by then). Their standards are alwys lower.

by Tdogg on Jan 12, 2007 5:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

gwynn gets in easy
raines does not. his numbers are not particularly similar to gwynn's. other than stolen bases, he's behind in nearly every meaningful category - BA, OBP, slugging, OPS, RBI. gwynn's prime was much longer. more batting titles, more times in the top ten in batting, more times in the top ten in OBP. if you could explain to me why you think gwynn's stats are similar to raines, i would like that.

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 5:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
I think Batting Average is about as meaningless a statistic as they come, so that's where I'm coming from.

OBP -

Raines - .385
Gwynn - .388

SLG -

Raines - .425
Gwynn - .459

Stolen bases -

Raines - 808/954 (85%)
Gwynn - 319/444 (72%)

I think they had similar defensive value, although I'd be willing to listen to arguments on the subject.

While I think Gwynn was probably the better player, I think it's close enough that if Gwynn's a slam-dunk, then Raines deserves to be in.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 5:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i totally disagree
batting average, of course, is important only as it relates to OBP. sure, that's virtually indistinguishable. but the slugging difference is huge. that means we're talking a 37 point difference in OPS.

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 5:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Which is why...
I included the bit about stolen bases, and IMO Raines' edge does make up for a lot (although I agree not all) of that 37 points.

I'm not really trying to argue that Raines was as good as Gwynn, but it is closer than most people think.  

Heck, I was with you until I really reviewed Raines' numbers.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 6:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the SB
is generally overrated, in my opinion. i haven't seen really excellent analysis of it - and, let's be honest, there really isn't even any good stat that captures the effect - but the little work i've seen done on it doesn't say to me that it would bridge the gap. his quantity and percentage are both obviously gaudy and that makes him a borderline candidate but, as i've said before, he's on the wrong side for me. wouldn't be surprised nor upset if he ever did, though. all he needs is a backer - and you seem pretty fit for the job. get www.timrainesforHOF.com locked up now.

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 6:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In general...
I agree that the stolen base is overrated.  But Raines stole so many, and at such a high rate of success, that it's hard not to make an exception for him and acknowledge that his prowess really did increase his overall offensive potency.

But that's just one man's opinion.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 6:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Raines
Most impressive thing is his 84% success rate considering he stole over 800 bases.  That is better than Rickey (80%).
Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jan 12, 2007 9:13 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

What's funny...
Is how similar his OBP was to Tony Gwynn's (over more plate appearances).  Gwynn had an edge in slugging, but given how Raines was by far the superior baserunner, you can argue that they were pretty damn close in overall offensive value.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 10:30 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

i love basestealers
it's one part of the game that i really miss in today's game. but tim raines belongs in the hall of very good.

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 12:34 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

If basestealing was held in such
esteem Herb Washington would be in the Hall.  Loved Rock, and he gave me one of the funniest moments I've ever seen on a ballfield (when Bo Jackson hit a homer for the Sox Rock was on the bench.  Rock imitated the limping Bo doing his best Kirk Gibson trot around the bases and everyone on the bench was busting a gut).  However, it's like being the tallest midget in the circus - being one of the best leadoff men is not a carte blanche seat at the HOF table.  (e.g. How many catchers are in the hall?  13.)

Chicks dig the longball, and without the nice round numbers (3000 hits, 500 homers, etc.) AND the aforementioned "snow" reference he'll have a tough time.

by winningugly on Jan 12, 2007 2:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Herb Washington was a poor basestealer
Lifetime 29SB 17CS.  Fast, but he lacked instincts.  Raines had both speed and fantastic baserunning ability.

by asinwreck on Jan 13, 2007 9:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

asinwreck (aka Buzzkill)
was attempting to make a point with a ridiculous example (whatever happened to verisimilitude?).  But well played, young man.

by winningugly on Jan 14, 2007 12:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

continuing
moving to the bottom, but replying to the squished thread...

Put Raines in his prime in the current collection of baseball talent, and he'd universally be held as the best leadoff man in the game. One that all writers would support for first ballot status.

Raines is hurt by sharing his prime with two transcendent players (Gwynn and Henderson). But his resume still holds up well against them.

I'm now seeing that Raines will be embraced by the Saber community for his high OBP and incredible SB efficiency, but be locked out by the writers because he failed to reach some stupid numbers milestones (It's worth noting that collusion cost him about 40 games immediately following his best season). What's ironic is that you'll often see writers talk about a teams need for a "leadoff man" met with catcalls from statheads claiming "leadoff man isn't a position." But when it comes to the Hall of Fame you'll have the statheads comparing Raines with other "leadoff men" and the writers comparing him to players in general.

I'd also like to point out that he still compares well with the two current borderline HOF sluggers. His career OPS+ falls between Dawson and Rice. I'd consider both Rice and Dawson above average sluggers that stuck around long enough to compile good numbers. Raines, however, was an elite OBP speedster. The type of player we may never see again. It would be sad if he isn't recognized for his excellence.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Jan 12, 2007 6:53 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

While we're at it...
let's enshrine Julio Franco.
Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Jan 12, 2007 7:08 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

he needs to retire first
what do you think, class of 2032?

by larry on Jan 12, 2007 7:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Raines
Later today, I'll sit down and take a look at Raines' Black Ink score if he didn't play at the same time as Rickey Henderson.  In a lot of ways, Raines/Henderson is going to be similiar to Trammell/Ripken.
Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jan 13, 2007 9:54 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

no dice
during their primes, they were in different leagues.
Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jan 13, 2007 12:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Raines
from The Hardball Times:

Raines Has Nothing to Worry About

Its all been hall of fame all the time ... so OK next year, Tim Raines, what's your take? Here's mine: I'm 42 years old and have lived overseas since 1989. Watched a lot of ball from mid-70s to that time, and Raines was simply the second best leadoff guy in the league. I'm pretty sure you can extend that to the last 40-50 years. I know he did blow and all that, but this cat could play and like Goose Gossage you knew you were watching an all-time brilliant player. His counting stats are solid, his rates stats hold up when in comparison, how about a for and against argument for induction(if anyone there is silly enough to argue against).

- Keith F.

Sal Baxamusa: I'll take the "for" argument, Keith. In my mind, Tim Raines is a no-doubt Hall of Famer. He played for 23 productive seasons, failing to crack a 100 OPS+ in only his age 31, 39, and 42 seasons. He finished his career with a 123 OPS+, including an excellent .385 career OBP. In the '80s and '90s, he got on base at a rate 17% above league average--in 20 years of playing--trailing only Wade Boggs, Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson, and Tony Gwynn, and leading Fred McGriff, Roberto Alomar and Alan Trammell (among hitters with greater than 8000 plate appearances).

He stole over 800 bases with a success rate of 84%. Between 1983 and 1989, only once was he not among the NL top five in OBP. During that time, he bes only Wade Boggs, Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson, and Tony Gwynn, and leading Fred McGriff, Roberto Alomar and Alan Trammell (among hitters with greated Eddie Murray, Rickey Henderson, Robin Yount, Tony Gwynn, and Cal Ripken in OPS+, according to Lee Sinin's Sabermetric Encyclopedia. And that case only took me 10 minutes of sloppy research.

So the question is not, should he get in, it's will he. Joe Sheehan at Baseball Prospectus thinks that Tim Raines will become the next Bert Blyleven, a slam-dunk Hall-of-Famer who has trouble gathering the necessary votes.

In particular, he's worried about how Raines' admitted cocaine scandal will affect how the voters feel about him. My guess is that voters will have their brains so wrapped up in revisionist history of the steroid-era that they won't even consider the coke use (because it's OK for a player to use illicit drugs that will hurt his performance on the field, but not okay to use drugs that will help). The steroid-backlash/witch hunt may actually lead to voters appreciating his
low-power game (nevermind that he slugged above league average over his career or that speed players have tested positive for performance enhancing drugs). Lots of fawning articles will be written about the death of speed game in baseball and Tim Raines will be the patron saint when he appears on the ballot.

I don't think that Raines will get in on the first ballot, but neither do I think that his will be an uphill battle like the one Blyleven is going through right now. Watch for Raines to spend a few years on the ballot before he finally breaks through and enters the Hall.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jan 16, 2007 9:16 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

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