Perry makes an early case for Raines
In the aftermath of the 2007 Hall of Fame announcements, it seems I wasn't the only one with the '08 probables on their mind. Fox Sports' Dayn Perry makes a case for Tim Raines, and unfortunately harbors the same fears that he'll be on the outside looking a year from now.
- He ranks 68th all-time with 2,605 career hits.
- He ranks fifth all-time with 808 steals.
- He ranks 32nd all-time with 1,330 walks.
- He ranks 46th all-time with 1,571 runs scored.
- He ranks 38th all-time with 3,977 times on base.
- He ranks 98th all-time with 3,771 total bases.
- He ranks 93rd all-time with 76 sac flies.
- He ranks 46th all-time with 2,502 games played.
- He led the league in steals four times, in doubles once, in runs scored twice, and in times on base three times.
- He won one batting title and once led the league in on-base percentage.
- He made seven All-Star teams and won one Silver Slugger award.
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38 comments
Comments
Rock
Also, although Raines was a seven-time All-Star, the last season in which he garnered that honor was in 1987; the man didn't play his last game until 2002. 1989 was the last year in which he got an MVP vote. That to me doesn't smack of all-time great.
by Toonderstrook on Jan 12, 2007 6:04 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Aaron
25 all star games
13 times top 10 in mvp vote
3 gold gloves
2 batting titles
.305 life time ba
number 1 finishes in BA OPS Runs hits Slugging % total bases doubles and more
not once was he the oldest player in the league.
Try not to sell the hammer short. He's not in the HOF becasue he lasted 22 years. Not that you said that but it should be noted.
Raines #s are not even slightly noteworthy.
by zokmaad on Jan 13, 2007 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hank Aaron
204 SB
7th best Power/Speed #
10th all time in Doubles
#1 in RBIs & XB Hits
by shaftr on Jan 13, 2007 5:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Rock
A greater tragedy is that a wayward baserunning incident has (snow)sealed his infamy.
by ChicagoPete on Jan 12, 2007 7:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Raines Hall of Fame Moniter Score
>100 likely Hall of Famer with >130 virtual cinch.
Raines is 90... blah blah blah
by Tdogg on Jan 12, 2007 8:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hall of Fame Standards score
Average HOF score is 50 which puts Raines on the fringe. Standards is also a better predictor I think. Raines prob gets in after a few years and fierce Saber campaign.
by Tdogg on Jan 12, 2007 8:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but...
by shaftr on Jan 12, 2007 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
tell me when
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lets talk
Raines: (8872 At Bats): 2605 hits / 3771 Total Bases / 1330 Walks / 808 SB (84% Success Rate) / 6670 Outs
by shaftr on Jan 12, 2007 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
my point
if rock could have stayed healthy in the last decade of his career like brock did, he'd probably be automatic. unfortunately, he didn't. hall of very good.
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying that...
I agree that he won't get in (at least not for a while), but the fact that he doesn't have 3000 hits is a pretty dumb reason not to vote for him, IMHO.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
read the thread
personally, i wouldn't vote for raines. i'm pretty ambivalent about it, though. it wouldn't surprise me if in 5 or 10 years a weak class is up and he slips in. he's borderline. for me, he's on the wrong side of the border.
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
actually
Oddly enough, I bought Bill James Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame book yesterday.
by shaftr on Jan 12, 2007 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, like I said...
You can argue that his total offensive value over his career was almost equivalent to Tony Gwynn's. Was Gwynn a "borderline" HOF candidate?
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
rinse and repeat
you get the magic numbers, you get in. otherwise, stand in line and pray. that's how it works.
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So...
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no, not even close
if you don't have those magic numbers, you need a combination of many other stats and "intangibles" - and you probably need some good press, as well. there are plenty of other guys who are deserving and who are in the hall who didn't get the magic numbers. i just don't see anything in rock's numbers that make me think he deserves to be one of them.
on a practical level, another thing that will hurt him is that he played his main years in montreal - the sportswriters there don't have much pull or persuasion. he's going to need to get some advocates on board. we'll see in a few years if some momentum gets behind him.
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I'm not so much interested...
You don't think there's anything special about Raines' stats - well, they're pretty similar to Gwynn's.
If you were the sole HOF voter, would you put in Tim Raines? Tony Gwynn?
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Raines scores...
I wonder why there is not one for basestealing? The more I think about it the more he may be a candidate for the vet committee (if they still have a vote by then). Their standards are alwys lower.
by Tdogg on Jan 12, 2007 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
gwynn gets in easy
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
OBP -
Raines - .385
Gwynn - .388
SLG -
Raines - .425
Gwynn - .459
Stolen bases -
Raines - 808/954 (85%)
Gwynn - 319/444 (72%)
I think they had similar defensive value, although I'd be willing to listen to arguments on the subject.
While I think Gwynn was probably the better player, I think it's close enough that if Gwynn's a slam-dunk, then Raines deserves to be in.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 5:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i totally disagree
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 5:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why...
I'm not really trying to argue that Raines was as good as Gwynn, but it is closer than most people think.
Heck, I was with you until I really reviewed Raines' numbers.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 6:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the SB
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 6:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In general...
But that's just one man's opinion.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Raines
by shaftr on Jan 12, 2007 9:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
What's funny...
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 12, 2007 10:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
i love basestealers
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 12:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If basestealing was held in such
Chicks dig the longball, and without the nice round numbers (3000 hits, 500 homers, etc.) AND the aforementioned "snow" reference he'll have a tough time.
by winningugly on Jan 12, 2007 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Herb Washington was a poor basestealer
by asinwreck on Jan 13, 2007 9:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
asinwreck (aka Buzzkill)
by winningugly on Jan 14, 2007 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
continuing
Put Raines in his prime in the current collection of baseball talent, and he'd universally be held as the best leadoff man in the game. One that all writers would support for first ballot status.
Raines is hurt by sharing his prime with two transcendent players (Gwynn and Henderson). But his resume still holds up well against them.
I'm now seeing that Raines will be embraced by the Saber community for his high OBP and incredible SB efficiency, but be locked out by the writers because he failed to reach some stupid numbers milestones (It's worth noting that collusion cost him about 40 games immediately following his best season). What's ironic is that you'll often see writers talk about a teams need for a "leadoff man" met with catcalls from statheads claiming "leadoff man isn't a position." But when it comes to the Hall of Fame you'll have the statheads comparing Raines with other "leadoff men" and the writers comparing him to players in general.
I'd also like to point out that he still compares well with the two current borderline HOF sluggers. His career OPS+ falls between Dawson and Rice. I'd consider both Rice and Dawson above average sluggers that stuck around long enough to compile good numbers. Raines, however, was an elite OBP speedster. The type of player we may never see again. It would be sad if he isn't recognized for his excellence.
by The Cheat on Jan 12, 2007 6:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
While we're at it...
by Toonderstrook on Jan 12, 2007 7:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
he needs to retire first
by larry on Jan 12, 2007 7:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Raines
by shaftr on Jan 13, 2007 9:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Raines
Raines Has Nothing to Worry About
Its all been hall of fame all the time ... so OK next year, Tim Raines, what's your take? Here's mine: I'm 42 years old and have lived overseas since 1989. Watched a lot of ball from mid-70s to that time, and Raines was simply the second best leadoff guy in the league. I'm pretty sure you can extend that to the last 40-50 years. I know he did blow and all that, but this cat could play and like Goose Gossage you knew you were watching an all-time brilliant player. His counting stats are solid, his rates stats hold up when in comparison, how about a for and against argument for induction(if anyone there is silly enough to argue against).
- Keith F.
Sal Baxamusa: I'll take the "for" argument, Keith. In my mind, Tim Raines is a no-doubt Hall of Famer. He played for 23 productive seasons, failing to crack a 100 OPS+ in only his age 31, 39, and 42 seasons. He finished his career with a 123 OPS+, including an excellent .385 career OBP. In the '80s and '90s, he got on base at a rate 17% above league average--in 20 years of playing--trailing only Wade Boggs, Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson, and Tony Gwynn, and leading Fred McGriff, Roberto Alomar and Alan Trammell (among hitters with greater than 8000 plate appearances).
He stole over 800 bases with a success rate of 84%. Between 1983 and 1989, only once was he not among the NL top five in OBP. During that time, he bes only Wade Boggs, Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson, and Tony Gwynn, and leading Fred McGriff, Roberto Alomar and Alan Trammell (among hitters with greated Eddie Murray, Rickey Henderson, Robin Yount, Tony Gwynn, and Cal Ripken in OPS+, according to Lee Sinin's Sabermetric Encyclopedia. And that case only took me 10 minutes of sloppy research.
So the question is not, should he get in, it's will he. Joe Sheehan at Baseball Prospectus thinks that Tim Raines will become the next Bert Blyleven, a slam-dunk Hall-of-Famer who has trouble gathering the necessary votes.
In particular, he's worried about how Raines' admitted cocaine scandal will affect how the voters feel about him. My guess is that voters will have their brains so wrapped up in revisionist history of the steroid-era that they won't even consider the coke use (because it's OK for a player to use illicit drugs that will hurt his performance on the field, but not okay to use drugs that will help). The steroid-backlash/witch hunt may actually lead to voters appreciating his
low-power game (nevermind that he slugged above league average over his career or that speed players have tested positive for performance enhancing drugs). Lots of fawning articles will be written about the death of speed game in baseball and Tim Raines will be the patron saint when he appears on the ballot.
I don't think that Raines will get in on the first ballot, but neither do I think that his will be an uphill battle like the one Blyleven is going through right now. Watch for Raines to spend a few years on the ballot before he finally breaks through and enters the Hall.
by shaftr on Jan 16, 2007 9:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
i'm rude
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/tht-mailbag5/
by shaftr on Jan 16, 2007 9:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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