Kenny's new plan

One outfielder....

It's one thing to throw the future away and try to build a contender this year. It's another thing to that to do that badly. I think Williams is doing the latter. Anyone can see Linebrink's numbers are sinking into a big pool of suck. If you are going to spend money, at least get someone good.

Similarly, the Sox need 2 outfielders to contend -- not one. It sounds to me like they are sold on Owens in LF if they sign an "elite" CF.

They would be much better served to sign 2 guys with whatever they would have paid Hunter. Couldn't they get Fukodome and Jenkins for that? If they don't think Fukodome can handle CF then just go ahead and trade Egbert, Sweeney, Carter for Coco Crisp (would that be enough?) and sign Fukodome. Why the Sox aren't interested in him is beyond my comprehension.

Anyway, if the Sox want to contend at the expense of the next 5 years, fine. Just don't be half-assed about it and put Ownes in the starting lineup. Get 2 real outfielders.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 23, 2007 11:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

If Crede's on the team

we better not see Owens in left.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 24, 2007 1:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So you predicted....

career years for cotts, hermanson and politte in 2005?

by striker on Nov 24, 2007 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you're going to play that game...

So your plan is to throw crazy money at a number of free agents in the hopes that they'll have a career year?

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 24, 2007 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't need to have a career year ...

just a decent one. Very few relievers are slam dunks, and they go for 12-15m. In this market 4 million is a GOOD bet for the risk/reward of someone of Linebrink's caliber.

And 31 is not that old for a reliever.

by rhombusface on Nov 24, 2007 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If Torii was plan 1

then what was plan 1A

by 3E8 on Nov 23, 2007 11:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Good question...

Hmmm...maybe that was Rowand, who they already know has priced himself out of what the Sox are willing to pay for him. I don't think Williams is as in love with Rowand as Sox fans are. I read that all Rowand would say about the Sox was that he spoke to Kenny. There really seems less interest there than the media is trying to portray. I think.

I'm guessing Crisp is the odds favorite for the CF job now.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 23, 2007 11:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hear we ago again.....

throw the future away.... next 5 years....linebrick sucks... kenny sucks.....we're baltimore...whole farm system for Coco

blah blah blah

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 23, 2007 11:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's not the whole farm system for Coco

I didn't say Gio or DLS. I think Egbert,Carter, Sweeney would be too much but none of those guys is even a B prospect at this point. Giving up Carter would hurt, but that just means it might actually be a fair trade. Supposedly BOS wanted Laird and a top pitching prospect from Texas for Crisp. That's just what they wanted not what they'll get, but I think Crisp won't be cheap.

You'd like some praise for the Sox? Here we go: their offer to Hunter wasn't for crazy money; I think it was reasonable. And not that it matters, but signing Jason Bourgeois to a minor league deal was a good move.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 23, 2007 11:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How many plans are there...

I gotta say I don't think it would cost as steep a price as I've heard put out there to get Crisp--3 prospects? Since when is he that good? Potential for injury seems to be a value-dragger in my opinion on Crisp, I think it would take no more than Broadway and Sweeney or Anderson, or something along those lines. And I don't think KW would...well, who knows what he'll end up doing, but I still think Crisp could be had for a couple of prospects--if that's who we want? How about stepping up and throwing a package of Uribe and/or Crede and a couple of prospects towards Tampa for Crawford? That's a player I would think the Sox would go all in on, he's a multi-tool young guy who could leadoff for years...

....STRETCH!

by suicidesqueeze on Nov 23, 2007 11:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

If it was Broadway and Sweeney

it would have happened already. Kenny has never shown much compunction toward the prospect of trading youngins.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 24, 2007 1:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmm

"...we're really right on track to get the guy we targeted from Day 1 of [the off-season] and the year before."

So Erstad was at least number 2 on his list then. Which: thank God. But does that mean he's after someone unexpected? Rowand was just traded, Crisp was set to be Boston's CF since Ellsbury wasn't ready yet.

In any case, it's not like Kenny was connected to either Linebrink or Cabrera prior to the trades (at least that I recall...SSS does a great job rounding up and selecting the choice quotes so I feel like I have a handle on that stuff), so, for one, that might actually be good news about Fukudome. For two, that gives me at least some hope that Kenny is going to mold this into some coherent plan.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 24, 2007 1:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Whether reported or not

it's pretty reasonable to assume that Kenny was looking to land Linebrink in '06 when he picked up MacDougal and in '07 when the Brewers gave up a LOOGY, a very good LHP in A-ball, and another prospect for a half year of his services (plus a couple draft picks).

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 24, 2007 1:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

oh, i mis-read that

i didn't realize he was alluding to linebrink and was just making a separate comment.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 24, 2007 2:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry, I should've mentioned that

MLBTR:

Mark Gonzales notes that the White Sox tried to acquire Scott Linebrink and Octavio Dotel in 2006, implying that Kenny Williams might go after one of them now. Linebrink is going to be a costly sign, as he's a Type A and I imagine the Brewers will offer him arbitration.

by The Wizard on Nov 24, 2007 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, don't forget Pablito!

Yes, yes, yes, our secret weapon is returning - and he's hungry for playing time. He's a PTP'er baby! My guess is Ozuna is considered part of Plan 1C from Outer Space. Jeez, even mild-mannered Dave van Dyck is getting as snarky as Cowley now:

...Danny Richar will go into spring training as the starter despite a .230 average, .289 on-base percentage and one stolen base in 56 games.{nyuk nyuk nyuk}

"But he has to come to [camp] and prove he can do it," Williams said. "We have other options. Pablo Ozuna is coming back [from injury], and he'll be looking for more playing time."

KW must be pretty desperate if he needs to point out that the return of Ozuna is cause for optimism. By January he'll be trumpeting Jerry Owens as the keystone to Plan 3D. With Garland gone 2008 is shaping up to be pretty ugly, and after that it don't look much better. Rowand or any other quality FA would be goofy to agree to commit to playing on this team for five years, I don't care how true that outfield grass is. Sox, Michigan and the Bears all swirling down the toilet in the same year, mercy!

"We've missed a little bit of that grind and edge and we've got to get that back." - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Nov 24, 2007 7:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Pablo has yet to play the field in the DWL

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 24, 2007 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yes

Mark Gonzales:

The Sox likely will acquire a backup shortstop, although infielder Pablo Ozuna, who missed the final four months of '07 because of a right leg fracture, has played 10 games there for Estrellas Orientales of the Dominican Winter League.

looking at all of estrellas boxscores after nov 9 (1st game), in all 11 games pablito has played, he was the DH

maybe Gonzales is looking at the 2006 boxscores...

by The Wizard on Nov 24, 2007 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So...

The Sox have what, $6.5M tied up in backup shortstops in Cintron and Uribe. I know Cintron was terrible last season and Uribe is expensive, but who are they going to get as a backup better than either of those guys without trading something substantial?

BTW, last season I initially thought Andy Gonzalez would be a good replacement for Cintron. I would like to publicly adit that I was wrong, wrong, wrong.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 24, 2007 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think Cintron

is under contract for '08.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 24, 2007 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's arb. eligible.

December 12. Waiting for someone to trade for him. Then release?

by ballyb on Nov 24, 2007 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Still?

Jeez, isn't he like 30 already? That service clock moves sloooooow when you suck. Anyway, we better not re-up with him. Can't play the infield and can't hit and we'd be paying him to do a little of both.

It's sad that our farm system is so bad that we don't even have any system soldiers good enough to pull off utility duty.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 24, 2007 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

still?

note the age of most first-time free agents. he's right on time. most players are not arod or cabrera.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's mostly a reaction to the fact that I want

him not playing for us anymore.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 25, 2007 12:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A SS from the system

Cab Bourgeois play SS at all? If he's marginally acceptable defensively I'd rather see the Sox use him at backup SS.

Spending money/talent on a backup SS is a deck chairs on the Titanic move. And it's not like the Sox can get a backup good enough to start if OC gets hurt. If the Sox are in contention, they'd have to make a trade for a SS anyway.

Spend money & talent filling the apparently unseen hole in LF or getting another starter.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 24, 2007 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

we already have a backup SS

his name is juan uribe.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was sort of assuming Uribe would be gone

I'd be fine with him as a backup.

And the money isn't that bad really -- $4.5M for a decent backup SS? In today's market, declining middle relievers make that much.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 24, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i thought

spending money/talent on a backup SS was a deck chairs on the titanic move?

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's a sunk cost...not a new expenditure

What are you, a lawyer?

I was commenting on the notion that the Sox need to acquire a backup SS (per the post I was replying to). To me, that means something like this would be happening: the Sox move Uribe in a salary dump (e.g. him + $1M for an A ball reliever) and then turn around having to pay Izturis $3M per year for 2 years. That would be the definition of rearranging deck-chairs I think.

Anyway, we'll see what happens.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 24, 2007 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it was a new expenditure

barely two weeks ago. and you seem fine with it. just asking what the difference was.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We'll end up talking in circles...

The Uribe signing happened when Williams needed insurance at the SS position -- at that point they signed him as a starting SS, not a backup. I certainly don't begrudge the Sox that signing under the conditions at the time.

At this point, the Trib's suggestion that the Sox will acquire a backup SS seems silly to me. That means Uribe will be moved and the Sox will have to use money and/or talent to get a different backup. It seems unlikely they'll come out ahead on the deal, and they have much bigger issues. Going through contortions to Uribe change places with someone like Izturis seems like wasted effort to me.

If this just isn't making sense, we should just chalk it up to me having faulty synapses and move on.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 24, 2007 5:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's been a bad sports year.

in fact I can't remember the last time so many of my favorite teams have underachieved. The Bulls, White Sox and Michigan football all sucking at once is a serious rarity.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 24, 2007 1:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If the choice is...

Rowand in CF and Owens in LF, I think I would rather see Kenny use whatever Plan that included signing two outfielders. Or, if we sign Rowand I would rather see us keep Crede at 3B and throw Fields in LF. Basically, I want whatever scenario keeps Jerry Owens out of LF and on the bench.

by SSH2005 on Nov 24, 2007 8:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

One of Kenny's biggest weaknesses as a GM...

When Kenny's wants someone, he gets him. It may be 5 years later, but he gets him.

That quote says it all. Kenny falls in love with players and still tries to acquire them no matter what, even after they may have lost their luster.

by SSH2005 on Nov 24, 2007 8:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Good lord...

I'm glad I've been too busy with work and Bloody Elbow. I can't take following the Sox anymore. The White Sox plans always seem to be the same as a man dying of thirst choosing to drink soda rather than water. When you're dehydrated you gotta drink the water...otherwise it's only going to get worse.

Good to see the site still going strong though. Great work as always guys!

AIM: BrentBrookhouse http://www.bloodyelbow.com - a part of the SportsBlog Nation Family

by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 24, 2007 12:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

UPDATE

Phil Rogers writes:

Red Sox center fielder Coco Crisp has become a target for both the White Sox and Rangers after Torii Hunter's sudden turn to the Los Angeles Angels, but Boston isn't going to deal him unless it gets a quality catcher, left-handed-hitting corner infielder or right-handed setup man. Nothing is likely to happen quickly with Crisp, as GM Theo Epstein hangs on to the hope of using him in a package for Santana or Oakland's Dan Haren.

by The Wizard on Nov 24, 2007 12:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

phew!

thank god we don't have any of that.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

As usual, larry, you cut through the BS and nail it.

Quality catcher, left-handed hitting corner IF, righty set-up man.

Strike three! Grab some bench. (Oh, we don't have any of that, either.)

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 24, 2007 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Which is fine, really...

I just don't see why Crisp should bring back that much in a trade. He's hasn't played well in a while (at least offensively). I'd hate to see the Sox overpay to acquire him. The only good thing about getting Crisp is that it might mean Owens wouldn't be in LF.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 24, 2007 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

probably because

a slightly above average centerfielder apparently now costs 5/$90MM.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 2:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Coco Crisp isn't a slightly above average CF'er...

He has a .280/.329/.409/.738 career line and a 94 career OPS+. Coco isn't worth the contract that Torii Hunter received or what Andruw Jones and Aaron Rowand will receive.

by SSH2005 on Nov 24, 2007 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no shit

you must think i'm pretty stupid if you think that's what i meant.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Man...

Are you on the rag each and every time you post here? You are bitchier than my pregnant wife.

by SSH2005 on Nov 24, 2007 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

are you

posting with your brain turned off? what kind of reaction do you expect when you grossly mischaracterize what i write?

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't f**K with larry the lawyer!

Ladies please scrub the sand out of your vagina's. You 2 sound like BA and Bmac in the same room with a tub of petroleum jelly. We all know Ozzie don't fux with that.

"Because I'm Chevy Chase and you're not."

by Soulja Boy on Nov 25, 2007 2:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Terrible trade idea

Here is one trade that is a pathetic idea.
Lets trade a guy with OPS+ 127 with someone with an OPS of 75 just because he meets Ozzie's idea of a leadoff man even though his OBP is only .313
We also get in the trade some guy who might shore up the bullpen.
That is what the Carlos Lee for Podsednik and Vizcaino trade turned out to be. And we know how that turned out. That might have been plan 1Z for all we know, so before have this team finishing 6th in a 5 team division, lets see how the whole offseason turns out.
Rumors of the teams demise might be premature.

by bingodog on Nov 24, 2007 12:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

except it was a salary dump

that allowed the sox to do what they should be doing this offseason - spread money around on multiple second-tier free agents.

podsednik, hermanson, iguchi, pierzynski and vizcaino > lee

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

World Series Champs >

individual All-Star appearances/stats.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 24, 2007 1:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately,

there is no second tier this year.

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

of course there is

that's silly.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

tell

me who they are, lar.

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And,

you know what? You can start with Linebrink. Yep, that's a second tier free agent. Still feel the same? I get what you're trying to say, though.

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and i don't get what you're trying to say, though

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Like,

do you think the other second tier guys you mentioned are going to come THAT cheap OR for so little time?

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 3:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yes

obviously. why would a second-tier free agent receive as much as a first-tier free agent? that makes no sense. simply because the money is more than in the past doesn't make the principle any different. let's take hunter or rivera as examples: do you not think that a smart team could cobble together more wins for $15MM next year?

you seem to think linebrink is a high-priced deal. but is he worth less than 1/3 of rivera? win shares say no. and i'd certainly agree.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wha?

examples: tadahito iguchi. mike lamb. jose guillen. brad wilkerson. michael barrett. mike cameron. livan hernandez.

you really need me to do this for you?

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I

pretty much agree with you there....at least four of the guys you mentioned should be seriously considered....why don't you think Williams thinks so too? It's a good bet we sign one of those guys....I'd say 50/50. It's NOVEMBER 24.

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

there's no reason to even be talking about such

players right now. if you express interest (whispered or otherwise) a team will, for example, be much more likely to offer them arbitration and you lose a pick. at any rate, most of them are second-tier (maybe even lower, depending upon opinion) for a reason - they've all got warts. they want to wait until the market above them sets so they can reap the potential benefits. teams want to see how much money they have left over after their initial shopping. december and january are their months.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

It's NOVEMBER 24.

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It should be noted that

the deals KW actually gets done are usually the ones we never hear about in the press before they're done. Just to toss out a few more names: Stewart, Green, Patterson, Clement...

by palehose67 on Nov 24, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think we're going

to have to come to grips with the new economics of a 6 Billion dollar industry that is only doling out 43% of it's revenue to players. In that world maybe Torii Hunter is worth 5/90.

If Francisco Cordero is going to get 4/46, and unknown commodities like japanese relief pitchers are getting 3.5 mill a year then 4/19 is probably about right for Linebrink, (assuming that your scouts corroborated a return of his stuff with the return of his K rate in milwaukee). I'll wait and see what kind of stuff he brings to the cell, but if he maintains near the 9K/G rate that he had in Milwaukee we'll all be quite happy I think.

by bhoov on Nov 24, 2007 3:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Here's

what I'd like to see....Jose Guillen....3/30; Fukudome4/45; Colon 1/7, club; option for year two at 11; Uribe kept; continue to explore what's out there for Crede and a host of others, including Konerko, but be restrained and don't get into the mindset of having to deal.

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Have Fukudome and White Sox

been mentioned in the same breath to anyone's knowledge?

by ballyb on Nov 24, 2007 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

here's what I can find

[dayn perry - 13 days ago]:

The first name to know is Kosuke Fukudome. Fukudome is a lefty-swinging outfielder for the Chunichi Dragons of Japan's Central League. He can play all three outfield positions, but he's best at the corners, where he boasts Gold Glove-caliber defense. One major league director of international scouting calls Fukudome "easily the best Japanese talent available this year."

The book on Fukudome? Here's what the director of scouting had to say: "Smooth line-drive swing, no hitches, squares up on the ball really good, great eye at the plate. He doesn't have the natural loft to hit home runs in American parks, but he's got plenty of gap-to-gap power. He'll hit a lot of doubles and get on base. He's definitely going to be an asset."

Fukudome's power numbers dropped a bit last season, but the 30-year-old should be in top form after undergoing surgery to remove bone chips from his elbow. What also makes Fukudome appealing is that he's an unrestricted free agent, which means MLB clubs won't have to cough up a posting fee for talking to him. As such, he's going to generate a great deal of interest. Already, teams like the Cubs, Giants, Nationals, Padres, Red Sox, Mariners, Rangers and White Sox have put out feelers, and Fukudome also makes sense for the Yankees and Tigers.

[rotowire - Nov. 25]:

The Rangers are among the teams that have expressed interest in Fukudome (elbow), the team web site reports. Several other MLB teams are reportedly chasing Fukudome (including the Cubs, Padres, Dodgers, Mariners, White Sox and Nationals), as well as the Yomiuri Giants in Japan. Fukudome, a former league batting champ and MVP in Japan, hit .294/.443/.520 for Chunichi last season with 13 homers in 81 games. Fukudome underwent elbow surgery in August and missed the rest of the season, but he is expected to be ready for spring training.

[rotowire - Nov. 12]:

Fukudome (elbow) announced Monday he will file for free agency, JapanBall.com reports. Fukudome underwent elbow surgery in August and missed the rest of the season, but he is expected to be ready for spring training. After a monster season for the Chunichi Dragons in 2006 (.351/.438/.653, 31 homers in 130 games), the former Central League batting champ and MVP was going through an off-year in 2007 before he got hurt (.294/.443/.520, 13 homers in 81 games). It's expected Fukudome will be pursued by several MLB teams (Cubs, Padres, Dodgers, Mariners, White Sox, Nationals). In addition, the two richest clubs in Japan, the Yomiuri Giants and the Hanshin Tigers, will also try hard to sign Fukudome, so note there is a chance Fukudome may opt to stay in Japan for 2008 if the money's right.

by The Wizard on Nov 25, 2007 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Question about Fukodome

People seem to be linking him to CF. Didn't he play a corner spot in Japan? If so, he's already 30 years old, so I don't see how moving him to CF would benefit either him or the team that eventually grabs him.

by CWSKeith on Nov 24, 2007 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ichiro

didn't seem to mind moving back to center last year. if he can play center, let him play there.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fukudome's been linked

to a number of teams. Reports I've read have him staying in Japan. Is that a smoke screen (for whatever reason)? With sports journalism as it is, who knows. But, I wouldn't be holding any breath-this isn't directed to you, Larry, just general to the SSS postings I've read-on Fuk donning a Sox uniform next year.

by HulkSmash on Nov 24, 2007 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm definitely not

but i'm actually kind of encouraged that fuku hasn't been mentioned in any specific reports with legit sources about being with the Sox. it seems like Sox signings always come out of nowhere. or nearly so, anyway.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 26, 2007 3:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The problem is

apparently he can't. Ichiro switching to CF made sense as he is one of the faster players in MLB. No one is saying that about Fukudome. In fact from reports he sounds closer to Matsui than Ichiro. Depending on a thirty-something japanese right fielder who last played CF 5 years ago to play CF in MLB is somewhat of a stretch.

by bhoov on Nov 24, 2007 5:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i haven't heard anyone say

he's slow. he's certainly not all that like matsui (i really like how we always compare japanese players to one of the other, what, four japanese players). the sources i rely upon actually have described him as having "fast legs."

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and as i've said many times

he looked fine in center at the WBC (that wasn't five years ago, was it?). small sample size, sure. but i think he would be play an adequate CF if a team so chose to use him in that way. he certainly wouldn't be the end of the world there.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Great Fuku

here are 3 comments on fukudome:

armchair gm:

Fukudome has doubles-power and will likely put up a high OBP in the Majors, but won't slug a lot of home runs.[12] Defensively, he's best suited for right field, but could plug into center if need be.[13] Mike Plugh, of Baseball Prospectus, says that "Fukudome is tailor-made for the Major Leagues. [...] He has patience as well as power to the gaps, a recipe for success, especially if he chooses to play in a ballpark with a spacious outfield." Plugh warns that Fukudome won't hit more than 20 homers, "but 50 doubles is not out of the question[, and] when compared to his [Japanese] peers, [...] his habitual .400+ OBP."[14]

One projection system estimates that a 2007 version of Fukudome would put up a .300/.375/.500 line in the Majors.[15] Former New York Yankee third baseman Mike Pagliarulo, now an independent scout, called Fukudome one of Japan's better athletes and said that, "when evaluating the 2007 MLB line-ups, Fukudome could bat fifth in the line-up for 11 of the 30 teams. He projects to the following: .265 AVG, .380 OBP, 20-30 HR, 80-100 RBI and 10 SB." [16]

mlb trade rumors:

I asked JapanBall's Bob Bavasi for his thoughts on the Top 3 Japanese Free Agents who may come over to MLB this winter. He kindly obliged, providing a couple of paragraphs on each. His summaries are below.

1. Kosuke Fukudome, Dragons. Left-handed hitting outfielder from the Dragons in Nagoya. Can play any outfield position, but probably best in right. A solid, no-nonsense type player, with a terrific glove and sound arm, he's the best Japanese position player in either league. Absolutely no secret about this guy.

dugout central:

Fukudome is one of the better athletes playing in Japan. He is capable of playing center field and right field. He is a five-tool player capable of hitting in the middle of the batting order or in the number two spot. During the middle of the 2007 season he was hit by a pitch and missed the remainder of the season. A new rule in Japan gives players on the disabled list time served towards their free agency rights, and this makes Fukudome a free agent.

by The Wizard on Nov 24, 2007 6:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We shall see.

If he's good enough to play CF on a regular basis then why isn't he? If major league teams really think he can play CF then he will, as a good hitting CF is significantly more valuable than a good hitting corner. I am in the pro-Fukudome camp, I just don't think we should expect him to come from playing RF in a lesser league to CF in MLB. I'd love to sign him as a corner OF though.

by bhoov on Nov 24, 2007 11:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm guessing you're not very familiar

with the chunichi dragons roster.

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm guessing you

aren't either.

by bhoov on Nov 25, 2007 1:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

oh, right

which is why i would post something that implies i was. i like talking out of my ass. it's great for credibility.

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know

you enjoy talking out of your ass. That's why you spend so much time doing exactly that on this website.

Familiarity is relative. Any idiot can lookup who is on their roster. So unless you have seen the CFs that they deem superior defensively to Fuku for the last few years play on multiple occasions your knowledge of their roster is of no more relevance than mine. A quick peek reveals that after letting Ochoa go they felt so confident in Fuku's ability to handle CF that they signed a 33 y.o. Korean OF who proceeded to post a .695 OPS.

The info that's available would suggest that Chunichi had little confidence in his ability to handle CF. Yet Larry, the all-seeing is certain that he can play CF in MLB. Wow, now that I think about I'm not sure how I ever doubted you.

by bhoov on Nov 25, 2007 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i take a bit more pride in my baseball knowledge

than you suggest. there are places one can learn about or talk about things like baseball. you know, like on a site like this. or baseball prospectus. or in an office that has about ten japanese nationals who assiduously follow japanese baseball.

i don't offer my opinion on things i don't know enough about. it's a waste of my time to post it and everyone else's time to read it.

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, lar, you had me

until you talked about the "ten Japanese Nationals who assiduously follow Japanese baseball" comment. While I agree all Japanese players should not be compared to one another because they all hail from the same island/culture, any yahoo, American or Japanese, has an opinion about baseball. If your "Nationals" are as well-versed as, say, Cub fans (or Cub management, for that matter) it means a lot less than if they were, say, SSS-like in their rapier-like wit and gimlet-eyed analysis.

Can't have it both ways, bro - tell us the "Nationals'" qualifications/rationale for their opinions and I'll listen. Otherwise, they're only smarter than us in that they've watched a few games, read a few papers, and done like the rest of us - distilled the data through whatever filters that make them unique folk.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 25, 2007 7:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm sure

that they would be able to tell bhoov who that 33 year old korean outfielder is, why he was signed, and why he was starting in center - just like they told me. that isn't opinion. it's information. and that's what bhoov and i were talking about.

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 9:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well now i just want to know

exactly what they told you. you're such a tease, man.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 26, 2007 3:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It

doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why they got him. They didn't think Fuku could play a plus CF and the Korean guy won 5 or 6 gold gloves in Korea. And so what? Derek Jeter won a gold glove here. And I'm sure if you talked to 6 American nationals living abroad who assiduosly follow US baseball they'd tell you he deserved it.

We shall see if the "Japanese nationals" are right. If he really can play CF, smart MLB teams will realize that and sign him to play CF.

by bhoov on Nov 26, 2007 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's not what the guys who follow

the japanese leagues said. but they're not rocket scientists. they're translators. maybe that's their problem.

the dragons wanted a guy for near the top of the order and to get on base for fukudome and woods. just so happens he's a rather good centerfielder, too. they weren't looking for a defensive replacement, it just happens that the guy they went after played center. he ended up being a bit of a bust. got sent down to the minors at one point (though he supposedly improved after that stint - hard to confirm considering i can't find splits). i guess the cautionary tale of signing over 30 outfielders with little power hasn't quite taken root over there, either.

the guys like to talk shit about koreans for some reason and they noted how lee was dubbed the ichiro of korea. apparently some other guys have had the same thing attached to them and they've all been subpar, too. it's probably like how we always hear about the next jordan and, of course, no one ever lives up to the hype. apparently he was a pretty good offensive player a few years ago. sounds like the dragons have the japanese KW running their team: always get their man, even if it is a few years after their expiration date.

by larry on Nov 26, 2007 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

See, NOW I understand your point

Thanks.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 26, 2007 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

by the way

these guys are baseball savvy, in my opinion. they said everyone with a baseball sense could have told the dragons that this guy wouldn't work out (declining numbers in korea in the prior years, older player who relied on his legs, doesn't walk much, little power, so on). sounded sort of like a juan pierre type to me.

i've never asked them what they thought of fukudome's defense in center. they seem to assume that he's fine in center, having played there often for the national team, because they just talk about him as a CF or RF. i'd already formed my opinion on his abilities there before i met these guys but i haven't heard anything that would cause me to change that opinion. my discussions with them have been more about the leagues in general and how things go over there - my sense of the leagues comes largely from mr. baseball and a few articles i've read about japanese ball. lots to fill in (and, from mr. baseball, forget). they pointed me to a book that they say is a good intro, though none of them have read it.

by larry on Nov 26, 2007 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

that is good info as it relates to Chunichi's intentions. However, only time will tell as to whether he can play CF adequately or not. I still suspect not. Guys that were moved from CF to a corner are usually moved for a reason. I mean are you going to tell me that Chunichi's superstar player was asked to move because they signed Alex Ochoa?! Now there's a question to ask the Japanese Nationals.

There was once a notion that Rob Mackowiak could play an adequate CF. Only when he got regular playing time there did it become apparent that he was horrible.

I doubt Fuku would be as bad as Mac, but I could easily see him being a Pods type CF (a guy who plays a corner quite well, but was well below average as a CF). Guys like that often give back a significant portion of their offensive value on defense.

I'm definitely for signing him as a corner OF, but the jury is out on whether he can play an average MLB CF.

by bhoov on Nov 26, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

moved for a reason?

sure. but not always good ones. i'm sure we've all heard this stuff before about japanese baseball and them being sticklers for orthodoxy and respect and pecking order and all that - ichiro's inability to break into his japanese team's big league club because his manager wanted him to have to go through the "grind" of the minors, nevermind his natural talent and readiness is one example with which i'm sure we're all familiar. i've gotten the sense that fukudome wasn't considered the archetype of a CF by his manager. you know, doesn't have blazing speed, actually can hit the ball, so on.

i'm falling back into the comparison to a japanese player but ichiro was put in right for seattle. and it wasn't because he stunk in center. it was because they had mike cameron and then jeremy reed - guys who are simply better suited for center.

by larry on Nov 26, 2007 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I am officially nostalgic

for "Turning Japanese" by The Vapors.

Ba da da da da da dum dum DA!

(Had to keep this thread going - I am now standing on my head to be able to read your posts.)

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 26, 2007 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's still in the middle for me

gotta go with the large font size, huh, old man.

by larry on Nov 26, 2007 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As Emerson said,

"Your actions speak so loudly I cannot hear what you are saying."

?????

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 26, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

In addition

They didn't have someone with as powerful of a right arm for RF, so OF defense would have suffered considerably. Once Guillen showed up last year, the story changed.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 26, 2007 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's all

well and good Larry. But "I've gotten the sense that fukudome wasn't considered the archetype of a CF by his manager" and "I never discussed Fuku's ability to play CF with the Japanese nationals, but assumed..." are great examples of sounding official but having no more evidence than what you saw in the WBC.

While that may be convincing evidence for some, it's not for me. Now if your Japanese translators say "yes we think he's a gold glove caliber CF after seeing him play there 50+ times" that adds a little more credence.

But I still say the proof will show in where he winds up. 10-11 million dollars a year is a huge deal if he can play even average mlb CF and post a .800 OPS. If he can do it some smart GM will sign him as a CF. If he can't he'll be playing a corner.

I'm not saying that he's can't play an average MLB CF, I'm just saying you haven't produced any compelling evidence to support that claim. Let's remember this discussion.

by bhoov on Nov 26, 2007 5:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if you aren't already

you might consider adding this to a full post as an update or something...i don't know if everyone has or will see it and it's pretty in depth. it sounds like he can be at least adequate in center, if not average or good.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 26, 2007 3:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK, I'll put it somewhere

by The Wizard on Nov 26, 2007 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's my problem

People seem to be using the Cordero contract as a justification for the Linebrink deal. I can't pinpoint why, but that doesn't strike me as very logical. There seems to be a disconnection, but maybe I'm wrong...

My other issue with Linebrink is with these Japanese relievers. It's frustrating seeing both Cleveland and KC land guys that probably have as good a shot as being 3.50 ERA guys (decent middle reliever types) as Linebrink does for half the price. I don't know, maybe that's an unfair assumption on my part.

It also boils down to an issue of principle. I don't like the Sox giving a four year deal to a reliever who isn't good enough to be considered a closer. Yeah, four-and-a-half million per season over the next four years doesn't figure to be a huge amount for a team that should be at or above a $100 million payroll, but that's $4 million that the Sox lose to sweeten up an offer for a more important player or to find half of a platoon or ...

by CWSKeith on Nov 24, 2007 3:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That last comment is the main problem I have...

with the Linebrink deal. The extra $4 million could have been used to grab a top free agent. Jim Hendry did the same thing before last offseason -- spread $15 million out on three scrub players instead of landing one big free agent with the money.

by SSH2005 on Nov 24, 2007 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

it's backwards. which deal was announced before the other again? it's far more likely that the cordero contract was influenced by the linebrink contract.

and, as i pointed out yesterday, if less than nine months ago jerry reinsdorf was calling it "foolish" to sign pitchers to longer than three year deals, i'm wondering what has changed. i can certainly tell you the actual principle hasn't.

we could find a reliever off the scrap heap or in our own system or from japan or wherever who is just as likely to provide what we want from linebrink.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

although I don't believe we should have given Linebrink what we did, there is part of me that understands it. And, in Reinsdorf's defense, I think the reason for the four years is a combination of succombing to the market AND the fact it isn't a high-priced starting pitcher when you're talking a committment of 50 mil or more.

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if they still believe in the principle

then there's the chance that they're essentially paying a few million in PR to sign a "name" reliever...if there is a such thing, i suppose that he's one, considering the demand he was in before the deadline.

but is it really worth the pick too? why not cordero or some other? i doubt it holds water, but i'm trying to put these pieces together in a way that doesn't force me to own up to the absurdity of the whole thing.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 26, 2007 3:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if by "worth"

you mean that's what the baseball market will give him, sure. if you mean that's what his value to a team is, no.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

larry,

what would you give Fukudome?

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

4/$46MM

or thereabouts.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Done.

What do you think about Colon? I know you've said in the past no way...I guess I should ask-- how do you feel about a free agent starter? Who? How much?

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 4:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i've said clement

if you want to go that way. don't like colon to stay healthy. can be tricky to predict a short deal for a pitcher. i wouldn't waste money on a starter but you could probably get one for $7MM or so in some combination of base/incentives.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 4:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've heard Clement

Has some serious issues in the toughness area, specifically, he was called a pu**y by one GM. That is to say, he gets behind a tough team and it's all over as he can't hang in there and that means a loss and probably a screwed up bullpen for a day or two. I'd go with Colon.

Show mercy. I get to watch the Rangers.

by Tim from Texas on Nov 25, 2007 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

a guy who averages 6 innings a start and pitches 200 innings when healthy. obviously a pussy. right up there with garland in the "toughness area," i'm sure. thanks for the observation, joe.

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

keep in mind

colon is getting a two-year deal. you better be damn sure about colon (or, more appropriately, be that close to the playoffs next year and that desperate for pitching to be willing to take a risk) if you're going to commit that much to him.

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

did they both have shoulder issues?

or was clement an elbow?

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 26, 2007 1:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

colon has had everything in the past three years

elbow, shoulder, tricep, back, rotator cuff tear. heck, i'm probably missing something. this guy is cooked.

clement had rotator cuff and labrum tears.

by larry on Nov 26, 2007 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if Clement had shoulder issues,

I might be less inclined to give him a shot. the rule of thumb I'm aware of says elbow problems can be fixed, but shoulder issues don't get better. I know sports medicine is advancing, but I'm pretty sure that still stands, if only for now.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 26, 2007 7:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That much for someone who's never

played over here? That seems like a huge mistake. He could absolutely suck for all we know. Maybe he'd turn out like So Taguchi, ya know?

I mean it's possible he turns out like Hideki Matsui... but Matsui was a helluva lot more sought after because of his numbers than Fukodome.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 25, 2007 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

um, so taguchi?

lol. why would you compare fukudome with taguchi? that makes no sense.

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm saying maybe he could turn out

like him? A 4th outfielder. I'm talking about Fukodome's potential here. He could be a boon like Matsui (I think highly unlikely because Matsui hit for power in Japan) or pretty darn average, like Taguchi. Taguchi doesn't have much power but hits mostly for average.

I'm just saying. That sounds like a lotta money to be committing for someone that could turn out like Taguchi.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 25, 2007 5:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

okay

i know i've done the same but we really need to stop comparing japanese position players to the other five japanese position players. it's really not all the precise or helpful. so taguchi wasn't supposed to be anything other than what he has been. i understand what you're getting at - fukudome could not be worth such a contract - but comparing him to taguchi doesn't make much sense. they're quite different players.

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 5:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

...Eh you're right

It's probably not fair to compare the two.

If the market wasn't so outta control I'd offer him a lesser contract but someone would overbid it... like the Cubs. Heard they are looking hard at Fuko as well.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 25, 2007 6:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think we do have to remember

as i and others have posted before and (i think) bhoov posted on this very thread, that baseball is awash in cash. revenue is going up big-time. a team can afford to throw money at players at previously unheard of levels. i'm not saying that a team should necessarily do something like give $12MM to a player like cordero. but if you've got needs, spread it around thick. you seemed to like high risk/high reward types in the context of the draft. i'm not sure fukudome is that high of a risk or reward, but i think there's a better chance that he will overperform any contract is he given (especially in comparison to guys like hunter or rowand).

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 6:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Go get him, Kenny. 4/50 is fine.

by dantesox on Nov 25, 2007 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

how about alexei ramirez?

he got his 1st hit in the DWL yesterday

we must have a scout there...

by The Wizard on Nov 25, 2007 6:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I forgot about him....wonder if teams are looking

at him.....ever look at scout.com? They sure seem to like White Sox prospects much more than most other outfits I see...

by dantesox on Nov 25, 2007 6:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

they do a pretty fair job with their

college football recruits, fwiw

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 26, 2007 1:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's definitely a risk

especially at 10-12 mill a year... but would you rather throw that money at Fuko, Jones, or Rowand?

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 25, 2007 6:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

jones won't sign for that little

rowand, frankly, isn't worth that money or years. so i'd go with fukudome.

really, though, is fukudome that much more of a risk than any of those other "elite" free agent CF? i think he'll be better than all of them, except jones, over the next four years. and all of them have warts. i mean, rowand was a below average offensive player for two years prior to 07. sure, he brings plus defense but are you really comfortable giving him a 4/$50MM?

by larry on Nov 25, 2007 6:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's tough...

I'd like Rowand back for the nostalgia (Drink!) but Fukodome's name leaves so much fun to be had.

That's saying nothing about their skills, however... I tend to think Rowand will outperform Fuko for at least the first year... but Fuko will adjust and better for the remainder of his first contract. If '08 is all we are trying for, then I say go for Rowand.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 25, 2007 7:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And, yes larry...

I'm looking for cheap and young for those guys, but wouldn't be against taking a quality reliever in a package.

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 3:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

On second

thought, I guess you would only sign Guillen if first you got such a quality package for Konerko....like two pretty good prospects and decent reliever....to take his place. Then, you might have to have Dye play first....hell, he played short in Oakland a couple years ago!

by dantesox on Nov 24, 2007 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Has anyone confirmed 4 years

Has anyone confirmed that the Linebrink deal is the full 4 years (and not, for example, 3 and a club option on 4)?

And in regards to 2nd tier free agents; when you look at it, the 2nd tier free agents (Gooch, Pods, AJ, etc.) that KW signed all had career years in 2005 - and that's what put the Sox over the top.

Canada's finest

by MarkD on Nov 24, 2007 5:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

that's not true

most had good years - you can call it a bit "lucky" in that regard if you want - but AJ didn't have a career year. neither did jermaine. el duque actually had a rather poor year. tadahito performed well but i wouldn't call it markedly different than what his usual performance has been (though it was his best). hermanson is the only one who had a really ridiculously good year.

you can call it luck but i would imagine some scouting went into it, as well.

by larry on Nov 24, 2007 5:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

To be fair...

to El Duque, he performed completely fine for a fifth starter. He gave the Sox (approxs here) 120 innings of a 5.00 ERA -- add in B-Mac's 70 innings of a 4.00 ERA and the Sox had one two-headed monster that was a very good fifth starter.

That was also the winter that the starting pitching market really exploded, so getting El Duque for 2 years/$9 million was perfectly fine.

But I've digressed enough and I'm debating semantics in the first place. Larry is in no way incorrect in what he said -- El Duque, Dye and Iguchi in no way 'played over their heads'. Add in Hermanson's (admittedly) lucky season, Vizcaino's reliability as a middle reliever and Podsednik's not-completely-terrible 2005 and damn, that trade really worked out well. I don't think it's a stretch at all to say Kenny will never top that string of moves.

by CWSKeith on Nov 24, 2007 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh what could have been

If we'd only traded Dye coming of his OPS+ of 151 (!!!) in 2006.

by madvillian on Nov 25, 2007 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Rays interested in Uribe

http://xmmlbchat.blogspot.com/2007/11/listin-diario-dominican-newspaper-says.html

Click the link -- the comedic value of the translation is worth it. Orlando Cabrera also has a new nickname -- Colombian Trimming Goatherd.

I've been pining for a Uribe + other stuff for Baldelli deal. Would Uribe, cash, Thorton/MacDougal and someone like Oneli Perez be enough for Baldelli? That gives them a great gloveman at an important position, a decent reliever who has a recent shot of bouncing back and a young reliever who they'll have control of for a while. Is that enough for a player who could be pretty damn good if he ever stays healthy and who won't be a free agent for a few years?

by CWSKeith on Nov 25, 2007 1:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Baldelli scares me now, too many injuries.

by ckimcircles on Nov 25, 2007 8:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"If he ever stays healthy"

If my aunt had balls...He doesn't stay healthy, fact is. If you want to take a flier on him, fine, but I wouldn't get my hopes up, and thus not give up much of value (other than a Uribe, who has plenty of undeveloped upside I don't want to wait around to develop). I think the Rays might be overvaluing him (like they do almost everyone - they seem not to be willing to part with much for reasonable value), and I'd just as soon not do the same.

Dig the OC nickname. Much better than Torpedo Boat starting at SS.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 25, 2007 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Columbian Trimming Goatherd. That's great.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 25, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL!

The OC is now the Goatherd Trimmer!

by The Wizard on Nov 25, 2007 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OC

You think that nickname will stick?

by Raf on Nov 25, 2007 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

maybe, probably not

Torpedo Boat sticked, at least around here, I guess it would depend on how he plays

by The Wizard on Nov 25, 2007 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It isn't so much that Linebrink isn't worth

the deal the Sox gave him, it's that he isn't worth it to the Sox. For a team like the Yankees that would be a perfect signing, seeing how the are desperate for help in the bullpen (like the Sox) but have the other areas of their team already shored up.

Linebrink isn't going to fix all the other gaping holes this team has, but he'll waste 4.5 million that could have been spent on more vexing problems.

by madvillian on Nov 25, 2007 1:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

linebrink

The bullpen is a vexing problem.

by Raf on Nov 25, 2007 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

re

For a team like the Yankees that would be a perfect signing

maybe we'll ship him to new york in july!

by The Wizard on Nov 25, 2007 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

there are similar sorts who don't

cost draft picks. that's my problem. if you're committed to throwing around money, that's your choice. you buy him out later or only give him mop up, no big deal, it doesn't affect the club, or does so minimally.

then again, the sox haven't drafted a decent player in the second round in damn near forever. but scattered throughout that list are guys who were traded for quality major leaguers and i'd bet those aren't that worse than everyone else's list anyway.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 26, 2007 1:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As one who loves our colorful

history, anyone see this?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-blacksox_bd25nov25,0,1139460.story?coll=chi_tab01_layout

Black Sox fever - catch it!

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 25, 2007 7:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I saw something similar...

on ESPN.com.

I keep waiting for someone to uncover some documents showing that the 1919 Sox weren't the only team throwing games back then for $$$, just the only ones to get caught.

by Hazymania on Nov 25, 2007 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So they weren't just damaging the

integrity of the game, but were stupid as well?

...that sounds harsher than it's intended.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 26, 2007 1:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't have any concrete evidence

just things I've read here and there that suspect a number of teams in this era took bribes to supplant the meager incomes the stingier owners of the era were paying.

In essence, what you're saying is accurate. Assuming what I'm saying has any validity (which I'm not trying to claim) than yes, the '19 Sox were the team that was stupid enough to get caught, thus ruining it for everybody else.

by Hazymania on Nov 26, 2007 1:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

or maybe

were stupid enough to throw an entire world series. i agree. i rather doubt this was the first foray into throwing games.

by larry on Nov 26, 2007 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It wasn't

and a decent amount of throwing games continued through the next few seasons, at least from what I've read, because it took a while for the players involved in the Black Sox scandal to be banned. The scandal wasn't even uncovered until a year later with the grand jury investigation and, as we see with the steroid scandal today, no one is going to change their ways until they see some real consequences to their actions.

Unfortunately, I don't have a link to describe the close relationship of gambling and baseball leading up to the Black Sox scandal, I'll see what I can find in my free time today. FWIW, my grandfather, although young at the time, used to talk about wide spread gambling in baseball.

Also, thanks to the both of you for taking my mind off of crappy reliever signings and their far-flung implications for at least 5 min. This off season is already depressing with Kenny's insistence on competing next year and the (potential?) signing of Linebrink. I hope it gets better, but losing draft picks stings.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 26, 2007 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i remember reading such stuff

when i was a kid. my grandpa talked about it, too. i'd be interested in seeing what you find out.

by larry on Nov 26, 2007 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm guessing you guys have read...

Eliot Asinof's book on the Black Sox. I haven't read a whole lot of books 'for pleasure' in my life but that was one of 'em, and Asinof said similar things to what you guys have mentioned -- the Black Sox throwing a baseball game wasn't the only incident of its kind back then. I don't remember if it was ever insinuated that another Series was thrown the way the 1919 Series was thrown, but it sure looks like other games were.

Thinking about it now, Eight Men Out may be one of the better books I've ever read...

by CWSKeith on Nov 26, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Haven't read Eight Men Out

but I'll look into it.

Here are a couple links that I found to some interesting material, first from the NY Times archives (be sure to scroll down to the second story) and the second from a book on baseball gambling that looks to be quite interesting.

In the event the book is in the library's collection or I find more in my leisure browsing of the internet, I'll post a diary summarizing the fruits of my research.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 26, 2007 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs