Ex-White Sox GM Ron Schueler to the Giants?

by The Wizard on Nov 27, 2007 1:10 PM CST in News Comment 63 comments

Look for former White Sox general manager Ron Schueler to join San Francisco's retooled staff by the end of the year. Most recently, Schueler worked as a professional scout under former general manager Walt Jocketty in St. Louis. But Schueler's association with the Giants dates back at least to 1997, when he and San Francisco executive Dick Tidrow worked on the "White Flag Trade" that sent pitchers Wilson Alvarez, Roberto Hernandez and Danny Darwin to the Giants.

***** In other news,

The 2008 Hall of Fame vote was released and Tim "The Rock" Raines is among the first-timers. Listen to Jim: Make it Raines.
Yasuhiko Yabuta should finalize his 2-year, $5-6 million contract with the Royals this weekend.
PMR numbers for pitchers.
A Pitch-F/x article on Tim Wakefield: Butterflies are not bullets, and another on Joba Chamberlain: Swinging at Shoe Tops?. Thanks to Tangotiger for the links.

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I'm continually amazed...

at the number of people who don't think that Tim Raines is a Hall-of-Famer. Just because he wasn't as good as Rickey Henderson doesn't mean he doesn't belong in the Hall - most Hall-of-Famers aren't as good as Rickey Henderson.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 27, 2007 1:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Amazed Jerry?

There are some including (Joe himself) that don't think any 2B should make it because they were not as good as Morgan.

Now I KNOW you really are not amazed.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 27, 2007 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm actually...

sort of a small-Hall guy. I'm not sure that Luis Aparicio belongs, for example, and I'm not one that wails every year when Santo and Blyleven are left on the outside looking in.

But I think Raines belongs in even a small Hall. He was an outstanding player in every sense of the term.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 27, 2007 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't get me started

Santo should certainly be in. Bert too though its closer. Small is right. Who do you only want in, your cousins? :-)

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 27, 2007 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

Tim Raines, for one ;).

On the current ballot, I'd vote for Raines, Gossage, and Trammell.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 27, 2007 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a small-Hall guy as well. It isn't

the Hall of Really, Really, Really Good. My favorite ballplayer growing up was Harold Baines. Harold was awesome, but he doesn't belong in the Hall. I'm a Sox fan that thinks Santo was an outstanding player, but I don't think he deserves to be in the Hall either. My gut reaction to Raines is that he too was an excellent player who probably doesn't deserve to be in the Hall. But I need to take another look at his numbers. At some level, doesn't it just kind of come down to a gut reacton when you hear the name. And clearly Joe Morgan should be the only member of the Hall.

by palehose67 on Nov 27, 2007 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think if...

Raines had spent his peak years in Boston or New York instead of Montreal, he'd be a lock, no-brainer, first-ballot guy.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 27, 2007 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I said don't get me started!

If you could roll back folks in fine, change the criteria. But you can't, so based off who IS in (3B and avg Hall of Famer) how can Santo not be in? Unless numbers mean nothing.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 27, 2007 1:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hell Jason Stark

once said. (Even though he won't admit it now) that Frank wasnt a Hall of Famer unless he reached 500 HR's. And that statement was 2 years ago.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 27, 2007 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

goose ...

blyleven. raines.

rice and john would be nice too.

by ruffster on Nov 27, 2007 1:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Side note...

Why couldn't the Sox sign Yabuta? Why was there no interest there? Other teams have seen great success with Japanese closers recently (Akinori Otsuka, and that other dude I forget about... the Dodgers guy and the Rangers guy... anyway...)

So... why couldn't we go cheaper and grab this guy? Why Scott Linebrink?

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 27, 2007 2:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

The Sox did try

This was simply a relationship signing (manager) as I have read.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 27, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

relationship signing?

what's their relationship besides spending time in the same country?

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Getting pretty personal aren't you Larry?

by ballyb on Nov 27, 2007 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i love juicy gossip

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 2:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I really don't know more

I was merely pointing to the articles saying the reliever was very familar with Hillman and his style.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 27, 2007 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's just a bunch of crap though...

I mean it sounds like KW didn't even -try-

That's inexcusable. I hope he threw an offer out there and it got turned down. Because to not take a flier on him with our bullpen is just... well... dumb.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 27, 2007 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

supposedly we were the "other" team

in this "relationship." according to rosenthal, we were spurned.

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Drats.

We could've really used him...

Who wants to go play for the damned Royals? Puh-lease... must be because he's from Japan and doesn't know any better. The name Royals must have thrown him off.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 27, 2007 8:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the royals aren't far off

they've finally got their shit together.

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Teams have also

had japanese pitchers flop completely. Kei Igawa is the most recent glaring example. But don't forget about "Mr. Zero". Thank god we only signed him for one year. Hideki Irabu. There is less certainty projecting Japanese pitchers to MLB than MLB to MLB. For the same reason that there is greater uncertainty from AAA (which is about the level of play in Japan) to MLB.

As to whether that increased certainty is worth 1.5 mill extra a year and 2 extra years is a matter of opinion. KW though it was. For me it would probably be worth 1.5 mill extra a year and 1 extra year. Then again I believe more in the recovery of Linebrink's K rate in Milwaukee, so YMMV.

by bhoov on Nov 27, 2007 5:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

From Callis's Astros Top-10 chat

No way we're worse than the Astros.

Q: Ben from Leland Grove asks:
Would you rate Houston dead last overall organization-wise on your Top 30, and how many years are they from becoming a more viable system?

A:
Jim Callis: We haven't ranked the farm systems yet for the Prospect Handbook, but the Astros are the favorite to be ranked No. 30. The White Sox are probably their closest challenger. A farm system can't be rebuilt overnight. It's going to take at least three years of solid work in the draft and internationally, unless they make a bunch of trades for prospects like the Indians did a few years ago.

by Bull Pain on Nov 27, 2007 2:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hey, a positive mention.

We're not last. But if we pull the Cabrera trade off we'll surely be #1 (or #30, depending upon your perspective).

Goddamn, we need some positive news pretty soon or we will feed on each other like a Peruvian plane crash victim. The subtle "hey, idiot" banter is getting edgy.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm no defender of the Sox farm system,

but the Astros organization is in a league of their own. We're talking about an organization that has failed to sign any of there first round picks in, what, three years? The Sox are bad, but at least we can hang our hats on DLS and Gio.

So that's good news, right Winning?

by HulkSmash on Nov 27, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

come on now. that's unfair.

they didn't have a pick to sign this year.

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Eh...

details. Still a bad system.

by HulkSmash on Nov 27, 2007 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

PS Sorry to hear about the marital

break-up, Hulk. Remember to be a man about it! No blubbering to the tabloids.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, you know how it goes

go through one failed marriage, you've gone through them all.

by HulkSmash on Nov 27, 2007 3:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, I have gone through them all

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 3:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK, they have a lock on #30 this month

Tell me after next month is we still have our picks/top prospects and haven't sold our souls for one shot before JR goes toes-up.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We can't really be that bad...

I'm not commending our organization in any way, but our top two pitching prospects are probably top 50-75 prospects. I'd guess Carter has to be bordering top 100 (give or take a little in either direction), too.

Why don't the Cubs get any crap for their farm system? Maybe I'm not familiar enough with their system, but it doesn't strike me as being very good. Colvin is good (but IMO slightly overrated) and they have that kid they drafted third (Vitters?), but what else? Gallagher? Veal was bad last season.

Don't get me wrong, I'd still say our farm is worse than average, but I think it's a stretch to say it's bottom five (unless I'm just very naive).

by CWSKeith on Nov 27, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Want to buy some land in FL, Keith?

As one who doesn't really pay attention to the farm like you guys I don't consider myself versed enough to cite statistics. But most of the other posters have, and you can look to the last 2 threads to see examples of how inept we are. (No catching/few OF/fewer IF top-tier prospects - thank God for a few SP's who might turn out) and to the firing of the guy who ran the show - that wasn't a vote of confidence, right?

Scrubs actually had some guys from the farm come up and make an impact, and Pie is still a highly-sought prospect (or, at least, was last year).

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't worry

we're fast on our way to giving up our 2nd and 3rd round picks, in addition to losing one of our top 4 prospects -- really the only 4 who count....

A year ago, we implored KW to offer arbitration to Riske. There were three ways this decision could have worked out...

(The option Williams chose) -- No arbitration offered. Sox save $2.5MM, have bullpen which ranks only ahead of TB.
Arbitration offered, Riske signs elsewhere -- The Sox have 4 draft picks inside the top 100. That means an extra draft pick from the likes HS arms Michael Main, Blake Beavan, Chris Withrow, Tim Alderson, Josh Smoker. I'll just assume the Sox would have taken Griffin with their second extra pick, leaving them another choice at the end of round 2. Added cost $2+MM.
Riske could have accepted. The White Sox would have spent $2.5MM in the bullpen for a solid 7-8th inning guy. Riske would have been a Free agent next year, and the Sox could have been in position to offer him arbitration again...

The Sox would be in much better position today if they had just been willing to spend an extra $2-2.5MM a year ago.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 27, 2007 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That was an absolutely baffling decsision

Terrible (non)use of a bigger payroll by Williams. Why try to save $2M there? And what's sad is that Williams got Riske in a very good trade. He almost turned a non-roster spring training invitee into some pretty high draft picks.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 27, 2007 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Whoa... Riske would've been a top FA?

I had no idea... that is inexcusable to not offer him something and get a draft pick in return.

Gay.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 27, 2007 5:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You must not have been around much

we beat that horse from November to January

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 27, 2007 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No lie, Bwana

Yesterday's news - let's move on.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 6:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're right...

I didn't start trolling these boards until April or so.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 27, 2007 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

welcome to the vagaries of the elias rankings

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 5:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Whoa Larry

easy on the big words, especially ones that begin with vag.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 27, 2007 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

astros

sickels

"callis had to close the chat early because nobody cared"

by The Wizard on Nov 27, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Callis

He's a huge Twins homer, and he hates the White Sox. The Sox certainly have a bottom third organization, but no farm system with DLS and Gio can be considered neck-and-neck for the worst in baseball.

by BridgeportJoe on Nov 27, 2007 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yes it can

Gonzalez is not an elite prospect. Doesn't have a dominating fastball, has questions about durability, had problems in a small park before doing well in BHAM (I don't know his splits -- maybe he excelled on the road). He's a good prospect, but I doubt Sickels gives him more than B. There's a bunch of pitchers with similar upside in the minors.

DLS is the better prospect with the better fastball, but he still hasn't seen AA.

Carter looks like he can hit but not play D. I don't think he's a top 100 prospect.

And I can't think of another real prospect in the system. So that's 2 prospects in the 50-100 range?

It's not good. At all.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 27, 2007 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

And not improving, I bet, if we are pointed toward winning "now" - we surely won't be getting prospects in return for the "talent" we are offering.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Disagree

Goldstein at BP is the only one who has come out with his White Sox rating. He has the system as quite comparable to a number of mid level systems. Teams like the Twins, Royals and Indians have really had their systems weakened by graduation to the bigs and injuries. Others haven't really improved Some quick examples:

Orioles

Five-Star Prospects
1. Matt Wieters, C
Four-Star Prospects

Chorye Spoone, RHP
Radhames Liz, RHP

Three-Star Prospects

Jake Arrieta, RHP
Nolan Reimold, OF
Billy Rowell, 3B
Brandon Erbe, RHP

White Sox

Five-Star Prospects
1. Fautino de los Santos, RHP
Four-Star Prospects

Gio Gonzalez, LHP
Aaron Poreda, RHP

Three-Star Prospects

Chris Carter, 1B
John Shelby, CF
Jose Martinez, OF

Two-Star Prospects
7. Jack Egbert, RHP

Indians

Five-Star Prospects
None
Four-Star Prospects

Adam Miller, RHP
Wes Hodges, 3B
Beau Mills, 1B

Three-Star Prospects

Chuck Lofgren, LHP
Nick Weglarz, LF
Aaron Laffey, LHP
Jensen Lewis, RHP
Josh Rodriguez, SS

Royals

Five-Star Prospects
1. Mike Moustakas, SS
Four-Star Prospects
2. Luke Hochevar, RHP
Three-Star Prospects

Daniel Cortes, RHP
Billy Buckner, RHP
Danny Duffy, LHP

Two-Star Prospects

Blake Wood, RHP
Carlos Rosa, RHP

Twins

Four-Star Prospects
1. Ben Revere, CF
Three-Star Prospects

Anthony Swarzak, RHP
Jeff Manship, RHP
Eduardo Morlan, RHP
Tyler Robertson, LHP
Nick Blackburn, RHP
Brian Duensing, LHP
Trevor Plouffe, SS

I'd rate our system ahead of the Royals and Indians and maybe even the Twins. This is all arguable of course, but looking at those systems I don't see how anyone could argue that any of them is vastly superior to the others.

Now systems like the angels, rangers, and Red Sox are way better than ours. I'm not arguing that we're anywhere near elite. Definitely in the lower half, probably in the lower third, but definitely not 29th.

And oh yeah, DLS and Gio will be ranked highly, both top 50. Gio is still young and just led the minors in K's. DLS simply dominated his competition. These guys are legit top 10-15 pitchers. They'll be ranked in the top 50 overall by most evaluators. You have to remember that guys like Gordon, Young, Butler, Hughes, Garza, Braun, etc. are no longer eligible.

by bhoov on Nov 27, 2007 4:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tallest midget in the circus.

Your last statement may be true. It does not, however, make me feel better to think that the only reason the Sox system isn't the worst (or next to worst) is because other teams' prospects actually end up contributing on major league rosters.

He not busy being born is busy dying.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 27, 2007 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good point - the senior class

has graduated. Who did we graduate? Fields. B-/C+ student. The freshman class doesn't look very well stocked, IMO.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 6:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no richar? no owens? no danks? no wasserman?

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Richar was obtained in a trade,

as was Danks. Wasserman (your boy) is legit. You could say the Booner, too, for that matter. I shudder re: Owens, and since many of us (including you) would commit hari-kiri if he was in the starting lineup in '08 I'd say he only graduated by default.

To clarify - who have we produced from our farm system who hasn't just taken up space or is on the ML because no one else knows how to get to Chicago by bus?

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 6:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

then you're talking about something else

bhoov is ranking organizations. drafting is good. developing is good. so is acquiring talent via trade. doesn't matter where they come from. bhoov posted the BP list. danks was #1 last year.

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 6:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK

Fields and Danks, then. I'll let the previous Danks conversations stand alone (a diary titled "Trade John Danks" is nearby).

No world-beaters on the horizon.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 8:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not a gio fan?

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 8:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Was talking about those who had

graduated. Gio, to my knowledge, hasn't seen "The Show" yet.

I think most reasonable folks agree Gio/DSL are our best prospects. The stand out because they stand (almost) alone, save Carter.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 27, 2007 8:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not a fields fan?

by larry on Nov 27, 2007 8:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I am coming around on Fields...

If he can knock out that many home runs a year I don't care if he bats .240.

Well... yeah... maybe I do. Okay. If he got it up to .265 I'd be happy. With some BB's.

But right now he's not really walking either.

Maybe Walk'll straighten him out, huh? :)

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 27, 2007 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and Danks.

We shall see. could be pretty good. Could both flame out.

by bhoov on Nov 27, 2007 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hadn't seen that before

I'm surprised at the low rankings for a number of players. Rowell and Erbe and Miller and Lofgren all were very highly regarded last season -- I admit I haven't followed them enough to know how they did last year.

Anyways thanks for posting that. Very interesting.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 27, 2007 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs