Couldn't Kenny have offered more?

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 2:02 PM CST in White Sox News

In need of an athletic outfielder, the Nationals have traded catcher Brian Schneider [30] and outfielder Ryan Church [28] to the Mets for outfielder Lastings Milledge [22], a league official confirmed Friday. The Nationals are scheduled to have a 3 p.m. ET conference call to talk about the deal.

Milledge, a close friend of Nationals manager Manny Acta when they were both with the Mets, most likely will play center field, a position Washington had serious problems with the last three years. When given a chance, he could provide some power. In 115 games the last two years, Milledge produced a .257 batting average with 11 home runs and 57 RBIs.

From a Mets point of view, the deal seems like a surprise, considering that New York acquired catcher Johnny Estrada from Milwaukee recently. But a baseball source said that the Mets were looking for a defensive player with leadership sills, and Schneider fits the bill. The Nationals will give Schneider $500,000 for accepting the deal. The source also said that Church most likely will be the everyday right fielder for the Mets.

Wouldn't something around Contreras or Broadway have beaten Bowden's offer? Heck, I was ready to offer Javy for Milledge. *****

And some good news from Robothal:

The White Sox have backed off free-agent center fielder Aaron Rowand because they prefer to sign him for four rather than five years, according to a source with knowledge of their thinking. The Sox are among the teams interested in Japanese free-agent outfielder Kosuke Fukudome, a rival GM says, and also are exploring a possible deal for Pirates left fielder Jason Bay.

The White Sox had scouted Fukudome back in August. ***** In other news,

The Tigers signed Kenny Rogers and the Cardinals signed Cesar Itzuris to 1-year deals, and the Astros signed Kaz Matsui to a 3-year deal. Yes, Kaz Matsui to a 3-year deal.
All Rock, All the Time.
Carl has 2 new strips: Ken E. Coyote and It's Alive!

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Comments

no

mets were dying for a catcher, but i dont really see how schneider is lastings milledge better than johnny estrada/castro.

kenny, DO SOMETHIN!

by The Deacon on Nov 30, 2007 2:07 PM CST reply actions

wasn't there

someone else involved in that trade? pretty decent player? let's not make it sound worse than it really is.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 2:10 PM CST up reply actions

yeah

ryan church, whos nothing more than a 4th OF.

by The Deacon on Nov 30, 2007 2:13 PM CST up reply actions

To be fair...

Church is a pretty good hitter, even better if his appearances against lefties are limited. He, and not Schneider, is the real pickup for the Mets.

But he's not young anymore, and he's pretty much reached his ceiling, while Milledge has a ton of potential.

Trading Milledge was probably going to happen this winter, but the Mets could have (should have) gotten more for him.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 2:16 PM CST up reply actions

Hmmm?

Church would be the second best OF on the White Sox.

I'd rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother that is a Cub fan

by boot2112 on Nov 30, 2007 4:12 PM CST up reply actions

Second best?

He'd be the best outfielder on the White Sox.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions

ok, couldn't kenny grab a catcher and trade him

to the mets?

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 2:10 PM CST up reply actions

and why would that team

do that favor for KW instead of doing what the nationals did?

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 2:11 PM CST up reply actions

because kenny would've acted first?

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 2:14 PM CST up reply actions

again

since everyone knew minaya was looking for a catcher, don't you think a GM might be a little curious as to why KW - who has no obvious need for a catcher - is looking for one? wouldn't they just cut out the middleman and deal directly with minaya?

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 2:18 PM CST up reply actions

re

KW - who has no obvious need for a catcher

we have a catcher besides AJ?

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 2:22 PM CST up reply actions

I was going to say...

I would be pretty happy if the Sox went out and picked up another catcher. It wouldn't be hard to find someone better than Toby Hall/Donny Lucy.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 2:23 PM CST up reply actions

which catcher is it that you're proposing

we'd have acquired then. why would we be going for a regular catcher - which is obviously what minaya wanted - when we have AJ, who we just signed to an extension? makes no sense and everyone would have known it.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 2:26 PM CST up reply actions

couldn't kenny say he wanted a backup for AJ?

no? ok

couldn't he have entice minaya with some pithing though?

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 4:06 PM CST up reply actions

Catcher?

Aparently not. Have you noticed that the Sox have no catching in the entire organization? Schneider is better than anyone the Sox have including AJ.

I'd rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother that is a Cub fan

by boot2112 on Nov 30, 2007 4:14 PM CST up reply actions

re

Have you noticed that the Sox have no catching in the entire organization?

correct

Schneider is better than anyone the Sox have including AJ.

are you sure? I admit I don't know much about schneider but from looking at their bb-ref pages I don't get it

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pierza.01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schnebr01.shtml

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 5:10 PM CST up reply actions

You are correct, sir!

They are equally shitty.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 5:12 PM CST up reply actions

Well...

Schneider has the better defensive reputation, although defensive reputation for catchers is a hard thing to gauge.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 5:16 PM CST up reply actions

Catching Defense

That is a good point. I should have said that Schneider has a better D rep but I have not seen enough of him to give a real good opinion. I can say that I have seen enough of AJ and he is a below average catcher. With Schneider having a better contract that is enough for me to give him the edge.

I'd rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother that is a Cub fan

by boot2112 on Nov 30, 2007 5:21 PM CST up reply actions

AJ vs. Schneider

They both suck with the bat but Schneider is a real good catcher and cheaper. I'll take him.

I'd rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother that is a Cub fan

by boot2112 on Nov 30, 2007 5:17 PM CST up reply actions

equal?

they're both 30

AJ has a .284/.328/.430 line (career) for a 96 OPS+
SC has a .252/.323/.377 line (career) for a 82 OPS+

how are those 2 equal?

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 5:20 PM CST up reply actions

he handles the staff well

this keed, he know what he doin' down there.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 5:23 PM CST up reply actions

and he cooks a mean gumbo!

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 5:26 PM CST up reply actions

Just checking out

Federal Baseball to read up on of their fans' reaction to the trade.

That site has generated 11 comments over the last 12 posts.

by BustedFlush on Nov 30, 2007 2:13 PM CST reply actions

try this

metsblog.com

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 2:18 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah

I read their reactions too, I just wanted to see how excited the Nationals fans were...but I guess there have to be fans in order for someone to be excited.

by BustedFlush on Nov 30, 2007 3:03 PM CST up reply actions

they do have fans

you're just looking in the wrong place.

http://dcbb.blogspot.com/

do you think the tigers have no fans because you looked on bless you boys?

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions

Fair enough

but even that site has less activity than I would have expected.

Dunno, maybe Colin is right and SSS is freakish with the amount of feedback.

by BustedFlush on Nov 30, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions

yes, it is

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:14 PM CST up reply actions

Look at baseballthinkfactory.org

re the trade -- 300 posts.

by ballyb on Nov 30, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions

don't blink

it's 350 now

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 30, 2007 3:18 PM CST up reply actions

11 comments per post would be

dwarfed by our output. I clicked "refresh" and suddenly there were 22 comments on this post. We're like locusts with these comments.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Nov 30, 2007 2:41 PM CST up reply actions

There's 1 comment re the trade.

by ballyb on Nov 30, 2007 2:47 PM CST up reply actions

Forgive me for my ignorance

What is NY going to do with Estrada now? Do they need a 1B?

Also, just looking at schneider and church vs. milledge, I don't see how this is all that lopsided - are church and schneider really that much worse than milledge in terms of production between the lines? And doesn't this mean that the Nats will be looking for a catcher now, so isn't Bowden losing a bit?

So many questions, so little time.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 30, 2007 2:13 PM CST reply actions

Good to have some perspective, rhythm.

I just echoed those sentiments on the previous thread.

by dantesox on Nov 30, 2007 2:17 PM CST up reply actions

Bowden wins

a lot on this. If Milledge is roughly equal to Church and Schneider next year, he can call up a AAA guy to play catcher and get more production there.

And, yes, Bowden does need a catcher, but his team is terrible and isn't going anywhere for a couple of years. So getting a talent/prospect at Milledge's level is huge.

by coffeepac on Nov 30, 2007 2:21 PM CST up reply actions

they've got a young catcher in flores

who hits lefties but not righties. maybe he'll develop into a bit more well-rounded offensive player. at any rate, they don't really have to worry about a competitive team just yet. so they can just pick up whatever catcher is out there and go with that for now.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 2:23 PM CST up reply actions

Flores

The Mets left unprotected him last season right? Claiming Flores in conjunction with this deal really is an absolute pantsing of Minaya by Bowden.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 30, 2007 3:33 PM CST up reply actions

i'd forgotten that

good point.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:35 PM CST up reply actions

As Larry once said...

Oh snap!

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:37 PM CST up reply actions

but you have to have something that snapped

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 5:35 PM CST up reply actions

Only the ultimate contrarian

can contest an 'oh snap.' By God Larry, take the night off already.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 8:38 PM CST up reply actions

lol, pantsing

never heard that one before.

by 3E8 on Nov 30, 2007 4:22 PM CST up reply actions

not a big sox history buff, eh

when our manager was pants rowland back in the teens, the sox pantsed a lot of teams.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 4:54 PM CST up reply actions

Are you serious?!

Milledge just posted a 105 OPS+ at age 22! Guys that are above average hitters at 22 in MLB often develop into stars and sometimes develop into superstars. Worst case he provides cheap league average production for the next 5 years. By contrast Church was in A ball at 22. Now Church is a league average to above average player but he's 29 and thus is very unlikely to get any better. If you evaluated this trade without taking age into consideration you might com to the conclusion that the trade was OK, but obviuosly that wouldn't be the correct conclusion.

I think that this is far and away the single worst transaction of the offseason. It's way worse than our worst recent trade (Vazquez for Young).

I mean imagine if we had waited until Young had logged 200 league average AB's and then traded him for pre surgery Toby Hall and the Trot Nixon of 3 years ago?

by bhoov on Nov 30, 2007 2:25 PM CST up reply actions

damn writers strike

material is being recycled all over the place.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 2:27 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah

figured since the thread had shifted I should shift my commnents with a little update. Nothing wrong with a good rerun!

by bhoov on Nov 30, 2007 2:28 PM CST up reply actions

bhoov, are you really John McEnroe?

;)

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 30, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions

It's not like Milledge is Elijah Dukes

Mets assistant GM John Ricco said on MLB - XM last night that this deal was in place since July, but the Mets wouldn't commit to it. So, if after 5 months, this is what Milledge was worth, I'd have to think that they might be able to move Church with more ease than Milledge which is ridiculous. It's not like Milledge is Elijah Dukes.

by Jim in Maine on Dec 1, 2007 8:16 AM CST up reply actions

a possible silver lining

Perhaps the reason that Kenny did not trade for Lastings Milledge is that Kenny does not like Lastings Milledge's attitude. I'd be more worried about his durability, but Milledge makes perfect sense in Washington as the Nationals build around Ryan Zimmerman.

Here's the silver lining: Washington was the only team I know of that expressed interest in Mike Cameron (and, for that matter, Corey Patterson). Should Kenny want to fill center with a cheap 1-2 year option, the trade removes competition for these guys.

Mike Cameron in CF starting in late April 2008 would be just fine by me.

by asinwreck on Nov 30, 2007 2:18 PM CST reply actions

Erstad & Cintron had great attitudes

I'd rather have Milledge.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Nov 30, 2007 3:05 PM CST up reply actions

random question

cheat or anyone else who has knowledge in this area, is there a place to get team-by-team revenue data for the past few MLB seasons?

by thewatermelonseeds on Nov 30, 2007 2:34 PM CST reply actions

forbes does a list

it's estimated, though, because teams don't release such information publicly.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 2:42 PM CST up reply actions

Anyone know who Estrada effed over

in another life? Seems the Nats didn't want him, either. Does that make what, 5 teams who have either traded him or passed on him in the last 4 years? Does he suck that much? Wasn't he an All-Star a couple short years ago?

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 30, 2007 2:48 PM CST reply actions

career year

he posted a 113 OPS+ in '04, Allstart, 18th on the NL MVP ballot. Touched 92 OPS+ in Ari, 72 last year and enters his age 32 season. '04 seems to be the major outlier.

So, bad hitter that is getting older and, probably, worse.

by coffeepac on Nov 30, 2007 6:41 PM CST up reply actions

this upsets me

Milledge would have been perfect playing Left or CF for the White Sox. That wasn't a whole lot that was given up to get him and instead Chicago will sink tons of money into another player in his 30s. First Delmon Young, now Lastings Milledge....awesome.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Nov 30, 2007 2:48 PM CST reply actions

In a nutshell,

KW missed the boat on trades to both Tampa and NY, moves people on this site have been calling for all year. And a Santana/Haren deal, it looks like KW will miss out a freakin' Coco Crisp as well. I see the Shannon Stewart PR beginning. Hawk will sure love it.

'Stewart, now this guy's a ballplayer. he just murdered up when he was on the Twins. Mercy!'

Yeah, too bad that was 4 years ago.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 2:57 PM CST up reply actions

Please explain

What deal was there that the Sox missed. I honestly would like to know.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 30, 2007 3:03 PM CST up reply actions

Garland for Milledge

Mets need pitching, badly. We don't need two SSs.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Nov 30, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions

that trade

would have been even worse for the mets.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:10 PM CST up reply actions

Come on Larry...

You don't actually think that?

Look what the Mets got? A horrible offensive catcher and a 4th outfielder. How is that better than a year of Jon Garland?

It's not like Schneider has a great contract.

by BoKnows on Nov 30, 2007 3:14 PM CST up reply actions

people really don't like church, huh

"fourth outfielder" is really catching on as an insult, too. i don't even know what people are referrring to when they say this anymore.

he's posted OPS+ of 118, 131, and 114 in the past three years. somewhere amongst those numbers is his peak, which he is likely to remain at for at least the next couple years. he's under control until 2011. just there, you're getting more value than one year of garland.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:20 PM CST up reply actions

Yup.

I agree, there was no deal there. We still got a hot at Fukudome and Cameron. Those are better acquisitions than Hunter or Rowand anyways. Let's flip out if KW doesn't get one of THESE guys.

by Raf on Nov 30, 2007 3:28 PM CST up reply actions

I suppose

I should rephrase "4th outfielder" to platoon outfielder. Church can't touch lefties, and he posted that high OPS+ in 196 ABs. Most likely, he's going to post a similar OPS+ to last year...So, he's slightly above league average outfielder who can't hit lefties.

Everyone is trying to argue that Church is a nice piece for the Mets here, but does he really fill a need? Why not keep Lastings and play him everyday? He probably would have provided the same level of production that Church will.

Garland would have filled a need for the Mets, even if it only was for a year. Quality over quantity.

by BoKnows on Nov 30, 2007 3:37 PM CST up reply actions

oh lord

the terrible "can't hit lefties" label. because not being able to hit lefties well is such a terrible, terrible thing. milledge apparently hits righties about as well as church hits lefties. i guess we need to platoon him, too. and since most pitchers are righties, i guess that makes him a fourth outfielder. wikipedia was right, after all.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:44 PM CST up reply actions

Is Church your Cousin?

The guys is 28, and is a league average OF. Throw in a back-up catcher, and our former #1 prospect can be all yours.

Why not deal your most tradeable asset to fill a need? That is all.

by BoKnows on Nov 30, 2007 3:53 PM CST up reply actions

Are you paying attention?

I think everybody agrees this was a good deal for the Mets. That was never the issue; the issue was more about pretending that Church was a nothing player and he's not.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 3:55 PM CST up reply actions

Actually,

I think most agree this was not a good deal for the Mets.

And if you were paying attention, this started because Larry thinks Garland for Milledge would have been a worse deal.

by BoKnows on Nov 30, 2007 4:00 PM CST up reply actions

count up the wins

1 year of a league average pitcher or 3-4 years of a league average outfielder. and a catcher. with leadership skills. and a defensive focus. don't forget him. he handles pitching staffs quite handily. with his hands.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 4:03 PM CST up reply actions

You're right...

I forgot to count the intagibles.

by BoKnows on Nov 30, 2007 4:06 PM CST up reply actions

it's all about presence

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 4:07 PM CST up reply actions

I don't know...

I don't think I'd trade Ryan Church and Brian Schneider for one year of Jon Garland (or one year of Orlando Cabrera, for that matter).

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 4:06 PM CST up reply actions

Sorry.

Got that backwards...deal for the NATS.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 4:08 PM CST up reply actions

If I read one more person write

"The Sox should have done...." WE DID NOT HAVE THE PIECES.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 30, 2007 3:00 PM CST reply actions

Right.

But it still sucks to see teams making moves while we have jerry owens and andy gonzalez on our roster.

by The Deacon on Nov 30, 2007 3:02 PM CST up reply actions

I don't know Dogg...

Sure, we couldn't offer a catcher, but the Mets have repeatedly noted how they are looking for a pitcher, and everyone thinks The Count would've been a good fit. It's not like what the Nats gave up really blew anyone away. Maybe Minaya just wasn't interested, but I imagine a Contreras and Sweeney/BA deal may have got the job done. At the same time though, who knows what goes on behind closed doors.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:05 PM CST up reply actions

again

why would anyone want jose contreras? who is this "everyone" that thinks he would've been a good fit?

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:08 PM CST up reply actions

Everyone in the know Larry!

Seriously though...I was referencing reports from NY media. Am I going to go dig up official articles for you? No. The pieces, likely, are probably the same smoke screens we read here in Chicago, though. So I shouldn't use them a source material. Nonetheless, still dissapointing to see--with what the Nats gave up--the Sox unable to come up with a better package. Who knows? Maybe KW just isn't interested.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:12 PM CST up reply actions

And do you honestly think

Jose would still be on the team if he could have been traded for Mils? Come on now.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 30, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions

I don't know,

because I'm neither KW or Minaya (it's called specualtion).

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:17 PM CST up reply actions

I agree completely...

I'm not a huge fan of Kenny Williams, but the Sox simply don't have the players that other teams want. There's no surplus talent at any position in the organization except maybe starting pitcher (sort of, if you believe Danks, Gio, Contreras, and Floyd are major-league capable).

Kenny isn't missing the boat on anything -- he doesn't have the talent to make deals. You can blame him for not developing a strong farm system, but you can't claim that he can outbid other teams. He just can't without opening up a hole someplace.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 30, 2007 3:40 PM CST up reply actions

I agree.

Ken Williams has already dealt the one real commodity he had this winter in Jon Garland. I don't know what else he can do without sacrificing the future.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 3:43 PM CST up reply actions

That's precisely my beef

He should have been extremely judicious in using the ONE trading asset we had, Garland. Going out and getting one year of a 33yr old SS a week after reupping Uribe IMO is not a very efficient use of that ONE asset. A guy throwing 200 innings of league average ball in the AL is a very valuable commodity for someone on the verge of a playoff berth in the NL. Everyone else is out there doing whatever they can to get younger, and KW is stockpiling downslopers even when it backlogs a position. To me that's imcomprehensible.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Nov 30, 2007 4:11 PM CST up reply actions

Remember-------

"Torii did say that KW's plan is brilliant and that Sox fans are going to love it"

by ballyb on Nov 30, 2007 4:17 PM CST up reply actions

And we've got the truest grass in the OF

Didn't Buehrle hint at some super-secret master plan too? I can't wait for the unveiling.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Nov 30, 2007 4:18 PM CST up reply actions

All the Sox muck-a-mucks

in tuxedos again, holding little velvet pillows with silver nameplates for the additions.

by ballyb on Nov 30, 2007 4:22 PM CST up reply actions

You're preaching to the choir.

the only thing I can say about it is that they're really no worse off than they were before.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 4:17 PM CST up reply actions

But that's the point

For even if the trade ends up being a statistical wash, KW traded away our best chip without thinking beyond the 2008 season. And for that, we're worse off.

by BustedFlush on Nov 30, 2007 4:30 PM CST up reply actions

I have to stop defending KW

It's not fun. But I've come to think Garland for Cabrera is not an indefensible trade from a certain standpoint. I would rather have seen prospects come back for Garland, and I still think the Sox need a new GM if they want to contend again, but....

Assuming the Sox want to go for the playoffs in 2008, the natural place to trade from was starting pitching to acquire a position player. SS,CF, and LF were the 3 biggest sinkholes on offense last season. And of those, SS and CF are obviously the hardest to fill. So using your main trade chip to get a SS for 2008 is reasonable. And if you think that the 2008 versions of OCab and Uribe will be the same as the 2007 versions it's a VORP upgrade of 30 at the SS position, isn't it?

Again it's not what I would do & I doubt that we see 2007 Orlando Cabrera again. But filling the Sox 3 biggest holes by trade & FA is a decent plan. Then it just comes down to correctly evaluating players and targeting the right ones. Whether or not KW is right about the players he is bringing in is an open question.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 30, 2007 4:45 PM CST up reply actions

A reasoned, balanced post...

I agree, but if you don't stop we'll both be banned!
Don't you know that Kenny bashing is "in"?
I'm gonna wait to see what roster comes Northeast before passing judgment. But then I'm a geezer who's seen much worse...

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 30, 2007 5:20 PM CST up reply actions

Like I said...

it doesn't really make the team any worse. Now Williams can make it a bad decision by giving Cabrera a multi-year extension, but as it stands, Cabrera is a type-"A" free agent - letting him and Thome walk at the end of the season should net some nice draft picks, if nothing else.

It's a lateral move - it makes the 2008 team a bit better while not really doing much (positive or negative) for the 2009 team or later.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 5:36 PM CST up reply actions

"I imagine a Contreras..........

.........may have got the job done."

You do, huh?

by ballyb on Nov 30, 2007 3:09 PM CST reply actions

mEANT FOR HulkSmash POST.

by ballyb on Nov 30, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions

I didn't before,

but I do now, somewhat at least, after seeing what the Mets got in return (and reading NY media--see above). Maybe the offer wasn't offered, maybe it was rejected. None of us know. Just speculation.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions

Correction

*Maybe the trade wasn't offered...

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:16 PM CST up reply actions

Then why are you posting

Smeone missed the boat?

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 30, 2007 3:18 PM CST up reply actions

TDogg, it's not my job to put trades together,

that's KW's job. I was throwing out speculation. My post refers to KW missing the boat on Milledge when he got dealt for a package, somehow, the Sox could have conceivably beat. What package? How the hell do I know? We can toss ot scenarios of BA, Count, Gio, Danks, whoever until whenever. My suggestion was, 'I imagine...' Does imaging equate certainty, of course not. No one here knows any of this for certainty because, as far as I know, we aren't GMs. My main point is that Milledge would have fit nicely into what the Sox need, and was traded for a lackluster package, one that could've been exceeded, in my mind, by the Sox.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:26 PM CST up reply actions

think of the other side then

would anything we have fit nicely into what the mets need?

it's the same discussion we were having about santana and the scenarios that keep getting thrown out there. read sheehan's post on BP today if you want more insight on that point.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:29 PM CST up reply actions

What are the Mets needs?

You said yourself, ascribing rational thought to Minaya isn't, well, rational. Still, in the end, likely no. The only need I can remotely see is a starting pitcher. And if they don't want to roll the dice on the Count (which I don't blame them for) then there isn't much to offer. They have young guys in there system who can produce same as Danks, maybe even better, and I think they are looking at 2008 (in terms of rotation needs).

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:34 PM CST up reply actions

and there's the problem

one of the things people always forget - read any book about negotiation - is that how you value something isn't necessarily how the other side values something. this could be that they value something more than you or less than you. never assume that they see things the same way as you do.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:38 PM CST up reply actions

Exactly

And that's why I usually don't get in the business of trade prognostication.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:41 PM CST up reply actions

If they had Garland last year

they're in the playoffs. I find it hard to believe that if KW offered Garland for Milledge that Minaya wouldn't jump at that, JG would make NYM big favorites in that division this year. And Milledge was surplus to them this year.

But no, we need to go get one year of a redundant 33yr old SS because he's grindier and edgier and has a great attitude.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Nov 30, 2007 3:42 PM CST up reply actions

Its silly speculation

For all the bitching, KW has the rep of one of the more busy and active gms. Its silly to watch a trade happen and say "they could have offered more than that"

Gms are aware of what the other gms are seeking.

If he traded the young pieces the team has, people would bitch about that also.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 30, 2007 3:39 PM CST up reply actions

Well, first,

I'm not sure how you bridge the gap from specualtion to bitching, but I'll disregard that. KW's been busy how exactly? By landing a 33 year old SS a week after giving 4.5 million to Uribe? By signing Linebrink? I like KW, but I don't see him busier than any other GM. What are you basing this knowledge on?

As for trading young pieces, I don't know about that. I don't think many would care to see Broadway, BA, or Sweeney get dealt for Milledge. And Dogg, assuming how people would react, isn't that specualtion?

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:48 PM CST up reply actions

repeat after me

it's november 30. it's november 30. it's november 30.

as far as his reputation, i think his record lives up to it.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions

Again,

with all due respect to KW (whom I like), he seems to be out there, working hard, doing his job. What, does he want a cookie?

But it is only November 30th. I'll remember that in my meditation session later.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:53 PM CST up reply actions

I don't think...

that the Mets would be interested in Broadway, Anderson, or Sweeney. They're not the "young pieces" that people wouldn't like to see traded, anyway.

The young players that the Sox have that have real trade value are Danks, Gonzalez, and Fields, and they're the guys that people are afraid to see dealt.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions

KW

I don't think he meant in the last two months, but rather his history of being an active GM.

And as far as speculation, that's the fun of all of this. Except when you start talking about a guy who, since the All-Star break in '06, has given up 329 hits 169 earned runs in 275 innings with a declining K rate, being a great fit for the Mets.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 3:52 PM CST up reply actions

Now that was funny.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 30, 2007 3:55 PM CST up reply actions

Like Larry, I don't like

repeating myself. But I'll say it again: I was basing the Count speculation on reports from NY (see above). And if you can find where I said he'd be a 'great fit for the Mets,' I'll personally write you a check for five bucks. No more!

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:56 PM CST up reply actions

Sorry...

"everyone" thinks Contreras would be a "good" fit. Those numbers, at 35 or 40 or 45 years old, don't make a good fit anywhere.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 3:58 PM CST up reply actions

I'm sure...

that Minaya would give Contreras a shot, if Williams agreed to eat some salary and didn't ask for anyone valuable in return. But Contreras doesn't net you Milledge, or anything close.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 3:59 PM CST up reply actions

Are you looking for $2.50?

I think I made my point pretty clear and explained myself pretty well...what are you missing Toonder?

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 4:00 PM CST up reply actions

you mean

you're not part of everyone? now i'm confused.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 4:01 PM CST up reply actions

Wow, guys,

I'm going to drop this, because it's circular and dead.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 4:03 PM CST up reply actions

but still kind of funny

well, maybe not anymore.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 4:04 PM CST up reply actions

Church

I'm still trying to figure out why people keep referring to a guy with a career 113 OPS+ as nothing better than a fourth outfielder.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 3:24 PM CST reply actions

because

it's become a shorthand insult. as such, it loses it's true meaning.

amusingly, i recall reading on the wikipedia page for "fourth outfielder" some of their examples. guess who was one? lastings milledge.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:27 PM CST up reply actions

Wikipedia?

Come, Larry. You writing a junior high research paper? (just busting your chops a bit).

I agree though. That would have to be one hell of an OF for Church to be 4th.

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:30 PM CST up reply actions

one of the better places

to get a pulse of the zeitgeist.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:31 PM CST up reply actions

Indeed

give me MySpace and Wiki, and I'm in the know!

by HulkSmash on Nov 30, 2007 3:36 PM CST up reply actions

The point is

would you trade ryan sweeney for Church and brian schneider? i wouldnt.

by The Deacon on Nov 30, 2007 3:28 PM CST up reply actions

wait -

we already have a lastings milledge on our team? where is this man hiding?

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 3:30 PM CST up reply actions

Hell yes, I would...

Ryan Sweeney looks like a buster right now.

We would be getting a good starting LF/CF in Church and a nice backup catcher in Schneider to replace Hall.

by SSH2005 on Nov 30, 2007 3:34 PM CST up reply actions

actually

you're probably right, i would too. Church already is what sweeney projects to be. didnt realize he hit .275 last year.

by The Deacon on Nov 30, 2007 3:36 PM CST up reply actions

Especially fans of this team

which has seen a total of three seasons of 100+ OPS+ from their starting outfielders in the last THREE SEASONS.

It's still a terrible trade by the Mets.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 30, 2007 3:28 PM CST up reply actions

Agreed.

I admit to being reactionary in the doomsday sense sometimes, but this is just a ridiculous case of people grasping, first by wondering why KW couldn't pull off a deal for Milledge with Contreras as a centerpiece, and then by making it sound even worse than it actually is.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 3:31 PM CST up reply actions

Go back to Church

Isn't RFK also a terrible hitter's park? I know it's a small sample size (57 PA), but Church rakes at Shea.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 3:34 PM CST up reply actions

so am I

Church isn't Ordonez in his prime, but he's not 2006 Erstad either.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 30, 2007 4:39 PM CST up reply actions

'So and so' for Milledge

It's funny -- combined here and at BTF I've read about 25 posts saying something along the lines of, "Why couldn't <insert team's GM> offer up ___ for Milledge?" We could play that game all day.

I'd certainly love to be a bug on the wall in Kenny's office, though, to see if he ever even inquired about Milledge. Seeing this return for the Mets, I'd have to say that Garland a couple million may have gotten it done.

by CWSKeith on Nov 30, 2007 3:56 PM CST reply actions

Maybe

Who knows maybe Omar still had dreams of Johan then (before Garland trade). That said of course I would have loved him on the Sox, but so would 20 other teams.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 30, 2007 4:04 PM CST up reply actions

frankly

the mets still probably have more of what the twins want than the yankees or red sox. they're probably equally relectuant to deal it, though.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 4:06 PM CST up reply actions

ZiPS isn't a long-term projection model

nothing can do that accurately, but here's what could be...

click to expand

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 30, 2007 4:09 PM CST reply actions

Dateline: August 17, 2026

Having stolen one base in each of his last three seasons, Lastings Milledge has finally entered the exclusive 400/100 club.

Acquired by White Sox GM Chris Singleton at the 2023 trade deadline from the Portland Loggers in exchange for outfield prospect Ivan Calderon III, a player to be named later, and cash, Milledge was brought in to play everyday in left field and lead off. Plagued by injury during his entire stay on Chicago's south side, Milledge never quite lived up to expectations. He however, quickly became a fan favorite due to his 'grindy' playing style though was never embraced by the Chicago sports blogging community.

During a press conference held today at U.S. Cellular, Bank of America, Nabisco, Johnson and Johnson, 3M Field, Singleton was quoted saying, "Lastings has always represented everything the White Sox stand for. We couldn't be happier for Lastings and we're convinced this will solidify his place in baseball history. Next week we will unveil Lastings' spot on the right field fence near the grass which he so gracefully patrolled. It's there that he will be remembered for all time along such White Sox greats as Frank Thomas, Billy Pierce, and Danny Richar."

Having reached this pinnacle, it is expected that Milledge will announce his retirement at the end of the season.

by Hazymania on Dec 1, 2007 12:14 AM CST up reply actions

kenny williams, former white sox GM,

was quoted as saying, "we pursued him throughout my tenure. i always wanted him. oscar minaya refused all the trades i proposed. as i recall, he just really wanted a catcher with mad defensive skills. and bowden was too smart to let him go. but as we all know, the white sox always get their man - even if it does take 16 years."

by larry on Dec 1, 2007 11:11 AM CST up reply actions

by the way

KW is senile by this point.

by larry on Dec 1, 2007 11:42 AM CST up reply actions

Do you mean now, or 2026?

because I think you could make a case for the former ;)

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Dec 1, 2007 1:27 PM CST up reply actions

In a word... yes.

by Hazymania on Dec 1, 2007 1:44 PM CST up reply actions

Don't have to see any projections to...

be pissed off that Kenny wasn't able to get a deal done. Milledge's power would have been a huge plus in our ballpark...

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 2, 2007 4:19 PM CST up reply actions

Anyone notice...

that it was an OF and a C that the Mets got in return? Not exactly the strength of the Sox organization (if there is one right now). Don't you think if the Mets really wanted a P they would have gotten one? Asking why the Sox were not in on this trade is like wondering what a lesbian is doing with that other chick when she could be with you. The problem is that you just don't have what she is looking for.

I'd rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother that is a Cub fan

by boot2112 on Nov 30, 2007 4:22 PM CST reply actions

We have a winner.

V. good analogy!

by ballyb on Nov 30, 2007 4:24 PM CST up reply actions

Garland is a master

at converting lesbians. He specializes in softball chicks.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Nov 30, 2007 4:25 PM CST up reply actions

ding ding ding

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 30, 2007 4:34 PM CST up reply actions

re

Don't you think if the Mets really wanted a P they would have gotten one?

I don't think so, pitching isn't that easy to get

I think the mets wanted to get rid of milledge

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 5:02 PM CST up reply actions

Wiz...

I hope Milledge doesn't read this site, or there might be a restraining order heading your way.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 5:08 PM CST up reply actions

LOL!

no need to worry, the SSS legal team will take care of it!

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 5:13 PM CST up reply actions

Uh-huh

I, for one, totally running like hell have your back.

I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 30, 2007 5:14 PM CST up reply actions

oakland style?

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 5:23 PM CST up reply actions

On a different topic ---

Cubs raise ticket prices

The Cubs raised their ticket prices from 12 to 23 percent for most seats Friday, sending a club box seat from $65 to $80 for prime games and a bleacher seat from $40 to $45.

LINK

And I thought my tickets were high - they'll probably have to keep doing this to pay for the backended contracts they have. Those poor Cub fans - I feel sorry for them... NOT!

by Brush Back on Nov 30, 2007 4:47 PM CST reply actions

I saw that

the real story is the increase on "value" dates, which are essentially tuesday afternoons against the pirates and nationals. They've increased anywhere from anywhere from 40 to 66% depending on the seat.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 30, 2007 5:04 PM CST up reply actions

That's not surprising.

The team made the playoffs this year. Demand should definitely be up in 2008.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 30, 2007 5:11 PM CST up reply actions

he did it again!

[spt]:

Elijah Dukes apparently hasn't calmed down that much.

...Dukes reacted angrily after being called out on strikes in the ninth inning and was ejected after going chest-to-chest with the umpire, and had to be restrained by several teammates at different times.

"It got a little ugly,'' said Jesus Campos, VP of baseball operations for the host Gigantes team. "If it wasn't for (teammate) Andy Tracy holding him back, things could have gotten a lot worse. ... It definitely wasn't a safe situation for the umpire because (Dukes) is a big guy.''

...He had words with the opposing catcher, objected to a strike call in his first at-bat, then was hit by a pitch his next time up and flung his bat to the ground, and on his way to first made a somewhat suggestive gesture to the typically rowdy crowd, which had been jeering him. It's not uncommon for fans at these games to scream and throw bottles on the field while player ejections aren't as rare as in American baseball.

Campos said he wouldn't be surprised if Dukes was suspended for his actions.

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 5:53 PM CST reply actions

Where are all you Dukes apologists?

Guess he's taking the Delmon Young approach to getting traded to the Twins - stop threatening the mother of your children, start threatening Blue!

'roids, anyone? I mean "asteroids", 'cause dees keed, he on another planet.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 30, 2007 7:44 PM CST up reply actions

ROFLCOPTER!

Always wanted to say that.

by Hazymania on Dec 1, 2007 12:16 AM CST up reply actions

braves declined to offer arbitration to andruw

link

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 5:55 PM CST reply actions

that should make the yankees happy

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 6:00 PM CST up reply actions

you think he's going to the yank$?

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 6:02 PM CST up reply actions

yup

there's a reason boras has been keeping his client out of sight/out of mind. he wants to see what the bosox and yanks do with their outfielders (if anything).

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 6:05 PM CST up reply actions

So you think Melky + more for Santana happens?

by hitlesswonder on Nov 30, 2007 6:23 PM CST up reply actions

maybe

we'll see. i don't think it's necessarily santana that they trade for, though. and i'm not sure anyone is a particularly strong contender right now for jones. boras is going to have him wait to see how things shake out.

by larry on Nov 30, 2007 6:27 PM CST up reply actions

Andruw Jones...

Of course, the perfect CF'er for us to sign. He's the best CF'er available coming off of a bad season. We wouldn't have to lose any draft picks...

But Jerry and Kenny refuse to negotiate with Boras.

It will be fun watching Jerry Owens in CF next season.

by SSH2005 on Nov 30, 2007 6:30 PM CST up reply actions

Which is why Carl's Ken E. Coyote

is hilarious. I mean, from a laugh-because-it-hurts-so-badly hilarious.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 30, 2007 7:45 PM CST up reply actions

but the phillies will do to rowand

[mlb.com]:

Free agent Aaron Rowand will almost certainly be offered arbitration by Saturday's 11:59 p.m. ET deadline, a procedural move that guarantees the Phillies a compensatory Draft pick should the center fielder sign with another team.

Rowand is the only Phillies free agent of significance because of his status as a Type A free agent, meaning the Phillies receive the first-round Draft pick of the team that signs him, plus a "sandwich" pick between the first and second rounds. If, however, that team finished with one of the 15 worst records last season, the Phillies will receive that team's sandwich pick.

...Freddy Garcia is a Type B free agent, meaning the Phillies would receive only a sandwich pick should he sign elsewhere. They'll sacrifice that by not offering him arbitration, a path more attractive than having Garcia accept and receive a raise from the $10 million he earned in 2007.

...All the team's other free agents are either Type C free agents or unranked, meaning the Phillies aren't entitled to compensation regardless. Philadelphia could offer arbitration to Kyle Lohse, though he is seeking a multiyear deal. The team has cut ties with Abraham Nunez, Rod Barajas, Tadahito Iguchi, Jose Mesa and Antonio Alfonseca.

by The Wizard on Dec 1, 2007 12:54 PM CST up reply actions

rotoworld's comments

[rotoworld]:

Unwilling to pay the price for Aaron Rowand, the White Sox are looking at signing Kosuke Fukudome or trading for Jason Bay.

Bringing in an expensive left fielder like Fukudome could cause them to go cheap in center or perhaps even stick with Jerry Owens there. Fukudome's left-handed bat would seem to make more sense than another right-hander in Bay, especially since the White Sox don't have a lot of depth to trade from. Nov. 30 - 1:34 am et

by The Wizard on Nov 30, 2007 7:14 PM CST reply actions

what about Alexei Ramirez?

I haven't heard much about him lately at all. Could he be a possible CF target for the sox?

Bring Back BA

by marco054 on Nov 30, 2007 9:44 PM CST reply actions

is cleveland after him?

[mlb.com]:

Indians: The Tribe has been earnestly scouting Alexei Ramirez, the Cuban defector who last season led that country's Serie Nacional with 20 homers. Ramirez, who went 6-for-16 in the 2006 World Baseball Classic, plays both center and short.

by The Wizard on Dec 1, 2007 12:46 PM CST up reply actions