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Mitchell Report Thread

Nat-fein-jackie-robinson-stealing-home-may-18-1952_tiny by Chiburb on Comment 228 comments

Use this as the commentary/opinion thread.

The full report is available here: http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf (409 pages, 6.48 MB PDF file)

SouthSideSox is a community driven site. As such, users are able to express their thoughts and opinions in a FanPost, such as this one, which represents the views of this particular fan, but not necessarily the entire community or SouthSideSox editors.

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not real list
look at the gross misspellings.  that list is from emails from last ngiht.
12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 13, 2007 11:17 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Prior, Wood, and Sosa
all on the Mitchell list, according to the Trib.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 11:35 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and more
According to reports out of New York, Kerry Wood is the only current Cubs player on the Mitchell list, but it also includes several prominent ex-Cubs, including Sammy Sosa, Mark Prior and Normar Garciaparra, along with Rafael Palmeiro.

Other ex-Cubs reportedly on the list are Neifi Perez, Kyle Farnsworth, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Manny Alexander, Matt Lawton, Julian Tavarez, Ismael Valdez, and Luis Gonzalez.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2007/12/reports-wood-pr.html

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 11:37 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Farns!
That explains a lot.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2007 11:41 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe
but none of those names are a surprise considering they've all been connected to steroids etc. in the past.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 11:41 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

like you said earlier larry
most of the names on the list will be fairly obvious.  i bet there is a lot of truth on the rumored list because, well some of those arent that hard to figure out.
12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 13, 2007 11:42 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From Rotoworld.com:
Link:
A previous report by WNBC naming many prominent MLB players, including Albert Pujols and Roger Clemens, has been disputed by an MLB official who has seen the Mitchell Report.
Rumors have been flying all morning about the potential names that will be released, though nothing has been verified. While WNBC's reported list seems plausible, it is likely we won't know the true identities until the report is officially released at 2:00 p.m. EST.

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 11:42 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder
As the number of marginal players appearing on the list goes up, does it damage baseball less by making it appear that "everybody" was doing it and that "see, it doesn't make you a star?"
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 11:44 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

considering the point of the report
is going to be that MLB/union allowed widespread use to go on, i don't think so. of course it wouldn't have made these marginal players stars because the stars were doing it, too. mitchell seems to have framed the issue the right way.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 11:47 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The damning part re "marginal"
players, in my opinion, is the message it sends to HS and College players.  That to even have a hope of making an ML roster, you need to dope up.

But then I'm an old guy, and for all I know it's ok for kids to use HGH and 'roids.  They keep telling me that Mary Jane is bad/dangerous too.

Where are the brownies?

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2007 11:50 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Brian Roberts, your plane is waiting.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 11:58 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pujols, not surprising
He was featured in Muscle & Fitness magazine a while back.  Every baseball player I've ever seen in that mag has eventually been proven a juicer.
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 12:02 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pete, I hope you are counterweighting
your M&F with a healthy dose of Maxim, else I'd be concerned about you...
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 12:39 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is that a Runners World subscriber trick?
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 12:56 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wouldn't know - the wife is the subscriber
I just look at the pictures of the hot, emaciated women on the cover.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 1:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bro, there ain't nuthin hotter
than a roided up,greased up female bodybuilder.
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 1:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I find
Roberts somewhat surprising.  If you'd asked me to name 60 guys I probably never would have gotten to him.

by Ryno on Dec 13, 2007 12:23 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder when he started...
Go look at his career numbers and you'll notice all of the sudden there was a huge spike.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 12:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep
he always had the potential to be a player, being a first rounder, but you can see a huge jump in performance after beign mediocre for a few years.
12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 13, 2007 12:25 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look here if you're surprised.

Just for the fun of it,
let's look at Roberts' OPS over the years.

292 PA, OPS: .624

149 PA, OPS: .605

512 PA, OPS: .704

736 PA, OPS: .720

Then finally, in 2005, after two full seasons and two partial seasons, he somehow (Mitchell Report, anyone?) he goes bananas for a .903 OPS at age 28.
Definitely time to give up on Richar...

"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:22:02 PM PST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]  

"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 12:26 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Definitely
The roids not only gave him a boost in his power numbers, but also kept him healthy enough and fit enough to be consistent all year. Definitely suspicious, because he never hit for power. Not even, I believe, when he was here.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2007 12:39 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When he was here?
You mean as a member of the visiting team, correct?
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Dec 14, 2007 11:17 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To clarify
Brian Roberts as a member of the Baltimore Orioles visiting New Comiskey (or US Cellular Field) and not hitting for power, because, from what I see with respect to his career statistics, he's always been in the Baltimore organization.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Dec 14, 2007 11:20 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So we need to get Richar on roids?
Or at least a copy of "Muscle Fitness for Baseball by Brian Roberts"?

by hitlesswonder on Dec 13, 2007 12:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see that now
I was just going off the top of my head.  He's not one of those guys that fails the "looks" test, so he didn't immediately come to mind the way a guy like Bret Boone does.  Looking at the numbers he's an obvious candidate.

by Ryno on Dec 13, 2007 12:27 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What kind of webmaster are you?
No "PDF" warning?

Hee.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2007 1:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Only 409 pages?
Ken Starr puts him to shame.

This might take time to digest.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 1:03 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

STOP THE PRESSES!
Who cares about roids, what about Joe Crede?!?!?
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 1:06 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

JIM PARQUE?!?
It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2007 1:16 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He was my favorite random name on the list too
Imagine what he must pitch like without steroids!  He probably can't break 70mph.

by Ryno on Dec 13, 2007 1:18 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well
the report said he sent something to Radomski to "check out".... Radomski discarded it as "no good" and had Parque cut him $6K in checks for the good stuff. And that as "following the 2003 season," so he never got ahold of anything "good" during his time in the majors..
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 13, 2007 1:35 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More roider news from Rotoworld.com:
"Larry Bigbie, who recently signed with the Yokohama BayStars of Japan, admitted to using steroids received from former Mets employee Kirk Radomski.
Bigbie estimated he bought five or six kits of HGH in 2004-05. Before that, he was using steroids and only switched because of the new testing program. Bigbie cooperated with George Mitchell's investigation and testified about the usage of other players."

"Paul Lo Duca, Miguel Tejada, Rondell White, David Segui, Denny Neagle and Fernando Vina were among those to write personal checks to former Mets employee Kirk Radomski, reportedly for steroids, according to the Mitchell Report."

"Former trainer Brian McNamee said he injected Roger Clemens with the steroid winstrol, according to the Mitchell Report."

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 1:18 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Think Vina will keep his ESPN job?
Or talk about it on air?
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 1:23 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More names...
"Former teammate Larry Bigbie said Brian Roberts admitted to injecting himself with steroids once or twice in 2003.

Bigbie and Roberts lived together in admitted steroid user David Segui's house for a time, but Roberts never used then, according to Bigbie. It was only later that he tried steroids. Bigbie said he had never suspected Roberts until that admission."

"Jack Cust admitted to having tried steroids, according to former teammate Larry Bigbie.

The two had lockers next to each other at Triple-A Ottawa in 2003. Cust told Bigbie he had a source who could get him anything he wanted, but Bigbie already had a source of his own. Cust declined to meet with George Mitchell to discuss the allegations. Since this is four years old and hearsay, it's going to be tough to suspend Cust."

"Former Mets clubhouse employee Kirk Radomski said Rondell White began buying PEDs from him in 2000.

White bought HGH and Deca-Durabolin, according to Radomski. Radomski produced seven checks from White in varying amounts, including one for $3.500."

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 1:31 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is erstad on the list???
my machine crashes when i upload pdf's ;(

by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 13, 2007 1:19 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

scanning the document

My favorite name mentioned is Ricky Bones.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 13, 2007 1:22 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We should have figured...
that the Big Hurt was the only active guy to volunteer to talk to Mitchell.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 1:24 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

On Frank Thomas:
"Among current players I asked to interview were five who have spoken publicly
about the issue. When I did so, I made clear that there was no suggestion that any of the five had
used performance enhancing substances, and I repeat here that clarifying statement. Four of the
five declined. One of them, Frank Thomas of the Toronto Blue Jays, agreed. His comments
were informative and helpful."

That's really excellent news. Funny that Schilling was happy to put his mug in front of cameras to decry steroid usage but clammed up for Mitchell. Disingenuous jackass.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 13, 2007 1:27 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stephen Randolph!?!?!
Charlotte's 2006 season is tainted! TAINTED!!!
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 13, 2007 1:32 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One list of all the players would be nice...
I don't feel like reading through 400+ pages of this report.

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 1:36 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Go to page...
149 as numbered in the report.  Names are tabbed, bold and italicized.  Starts with Lenny Dykstra.  Gives a brief synopsis of who the player is and what they did.  
Caulk the wagon.

by rebstock on Dec 13, 2007 1:41 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Brilliant
Yeah, let's see - my dope dealer wants his money.  Now where did I put my checkbook?
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 1:38 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Matt Karchner!
Also, look at the Dodger GM's comments about Gagne.  Nice.  Perhaps there is some contract remorse in numerous cities today.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 1:38 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It looks like
the BoSox KNEW he was going to blow, and then they went ahead and got him anyway.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 1:40 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Karchner...
isn't actually accused of taking PED's, only that he knew of (Cubs) teammates taking them.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 13, 2007 1:43 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And did not roll over
"Never rat on your friends, and keep your mouth shut."  Words by which to live.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 1:46 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jim Parque
He sure wasn't using them while he was with the sox.

by Los Soxos on Dec 13, 2007 1:42 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Scott Schoeneweis
Scott Schoeneweis
On October 1, 2007, ESPN reported on its website that New York Mets pitcher
Scott Schoeneweis had received six shipments of steroids from Signature Pharmacy at Comiskey
Park while he was playing for the Chicago White Sox in 2003 and 2004.

Steroids shipped to Comiskey?! Say it isn't SO!!!

by PaulieK14 on Dec 13, 2007 2:12 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More Cubs (former Sock)
Matt Karchner pitched for two teams in Major League Baseball between 1995 and 2000, the Chicago Cubs and the Chicago White Sox. Members of my investigative staff contacted him as part of our effort to interview former major league players. Karchner said that during spring training in 1999, he observed two of his Chicago Cubs teammates inject themselves with steroids in an apartment that Karchner was sharing with them. Karchner declined to identify the players. He said that one of the players brought the steroids to the apartment but was afraid of needles and therefore asked the second player to administer the shot. The second player injected the first player with steroids in the buttocks and then injected himself.

Later that season, Karchner was offered steroids by certain of his Cubs teammates. Karchner would not disclose the names of players who offered him steroids, but he said that the conversations he had with them involved the general cost of steroids and discussions of "stacking" to build lean muscle necessary for pitchers. Karchner did not report either of these incidents to anyone at the time.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 13, 2007 1:46 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the way....
After all this is said and done...Big Hurt will be a first ballot hall of famer.  He played injured and his numbers have declined, but HE ALWAYS PLAYED CLEAN.  He has lost so much integrity due to his attitude, but right now, he looks like the most honest and honorable player baseball has.  GODDAMN IT I'M TEARING UP.

by Los Soxos on Dec 13, 2007 1:46 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He was a selfish asshole.
But I loved him too.
It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2007 1:48 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not trying to burst your bubble...
but just b/c he helped with the investigation doesn't mean he didn't juice in his career.

I sure hope he never did. Never looked to me like he needed to.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2007 1:57 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah but
Frank is certainly acting like someone with nothing to hide.
Dubee and Danks and pray for Taco Bell

by hscs on Dec 13, 2007 2:05 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the big hurt
was a moose back in college.. he was a tight end. He was always huge.. unlike Bonds and so many of the weenies showing up in this report.

by ruffster on Dec 13, 2007 2:18 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's amazing
is this report has been carefully vetted to avoid libel, so before they actually named anyone they were sure they had a witness or a COPY OF A CHECK YOU MORON.  So this is just the tip of the iceberg, the actual amount of users is some multiple of those named.
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 1:52 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looking back at 2003...
I just dug up the NYT story about the White Sox abortive attempt force testing: Link

It includes some nice quotes from Williams supporting his player's stance.

Also, from Jason Giambi on the Sox trying to force testing:

"It sounds kind of stupid. The whole idea of testing is to see if there is a problem. If they'd failed the test deliberately, it would have given a bogus percentage. And in that case, why would you want to implement testing if it's not a problem?"

Jackass. Isn't it time for him to give Frank Thomas the MVP award he stole in 2000?

by hitlesswonder on Dec 13, 2007 1:53 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Giambi is a jackass...
and I hope he dies of some roids related illness.

Too harsh? Maybe.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2007 1:59 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Williams quotes from 2003
The 16 White Sox players knew that their refusals to be tested would count as positive results and would carve out a large niche in that 5 percent threshold, thereby inducing program testing next year.

Ken Williams, the general manager of the White Sox, applauded that strategy.

''Either you are for keeping purity in sports or you're not,'' Williams said today. ''Our players expressed desires in attempting to take action.''

Does this mean, he was asked, that the players' union is opposed to purity in baseball?

''I'm not going to comment any further on the issue,'' he said.

I may not be happy with the current team, but that's a good quote.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 13, 2007 2:20 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kenny's definitely a good guy
and I think we'll like what he's done with the '08 team, even if we're aware the sort of scrambling he's going to have to do to stay competitive in '09 and '10.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2007 3:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Colin, sneaking one in on us?
If you have cause for optimism other than pure hope please share.  You usually have good reasons, let's have it.  Saving it for a diary?
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 4:11 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Um actually I wrote up a pretty huge
Gavin Floyd diary, but I was a little too, um, "altered" to get it to work properly and then it got deleted.  It made sense though, I swear.

But it's simpler than that.  Next year we aren't going to win it all, or even make the playoffs.  But we did suck huge ass at four positions for assorted reasons: 3B, SS, LF and CF.  3 of the 4 will be replaced by competence.  The thing is, merely being replacement level will mean being better than we were at those positions last year.  But we'll be probably league average at one, replacement level at one, and somewhere in between for the other two.  Kenny did his Kenny thing, but couldn't fill CF.  If he had, we could have made a playoff push.

The optimism is part perspective, part reality.

But about Gavin: I like what he did in September and I've been kind of crowing about the fact that I watched a sample of his Sept starts and some of his pre-Sept starts.  The slider he added to his arsenal makes a huge difference.

What are we really all pissed off about anyway?  Linebrink?  At very worst: he's yet another reliever that didn't work out and we have to eat the contract plus we lost the second round pick.  How much value is really lost there?  I understand the opportunity cost, but how many actual major leaguers are eventual conjured up with second round picks?  And for 19M total?  That's a year of the Hunter deal.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2007 4:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All his moves have addressed offense
except for Linebrink, who I don't see making that much of an impact.  I think Garland was very underrated and his absense will be felt, you forget how many games he kept us in pitching really tough with no run support into the 8th inning last year.  There's a chance Danks and Floyd both break out, who knows.

But offensively, I see Ozzie dogmatically plugging in Owens & Cabrera 1 & 2 in the batting order.  That's two guys with .320 OBPs getting 25% of your PAs.  I don't care if you have ARod and Pujols batting 3 & 4, you're going to have trouble generating any offense with those two guys at the top of the order.  If Owens bats leadoff in April I think we're doomed, hopefully KW's not finished yet.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 14, 2007 5:41 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have to say...
in some ways I am most as proud of that story as I am of the World Series title.

I know it wasn't a huge deal or anything, and I am obviously biased, but I think it gets swept under the rug a little too often by the national media.  I hate to play the East-Coast-Bias Card but can you imagine if a Red Sox or Yankees team had done this?  ESPN would still be talking about how they brought about the end of steroids through their heroics.

by CatBrains on Dec 13, 2007 3:36 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Miguel Tejada...
Former A's teammate Adam Piatt said he sold testosterone or Deca-Durabolin, along with human growth hormone, to Miguel Tejada in 2003.
Piatt, who retired the following season, has admitted to using steroids. He says Tejada initially brought up the subject of steroids with him. He never saw Tejada actually use any substances. Piatt had checks from Tejada published in the Mitchell Report dated from 2003 for $3,100 and $3,200.

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 1:58 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The big question now is...
do the astros regret the signin or try to take the trade back?
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2007 2:00 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Funny
If Clements and Bonds don't get into the HOF because of this, then we have a situation where the second best hitter of all time and the third best pitcher (maybe fourth) are both eligible for election but not in.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 1:59 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Third-best?
Walter Johnson was maybe better than Clemens.  Who else?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 13, 2007 2:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lefty Grove
Especially taking workloads into account.

I could buy Cy Young too, though personally I'd put Clemens over him

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 2:11 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Grove...
worked something like a thousand fewer innings than Clemens has.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In about seven fewer seasons.
Grove has a better ERA+ and he his peak was better.  He has two separate 5 year stretches of 150+ OPS.  Clemens has zero.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 2:18 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess...
it depends on whether you value career or peak.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 13, 2007 2:42 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well if the career is the thing
most definitively assisted by the PEDs, it seems like the peak would be the best to compare, no?
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2007 3:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cy Young?
Christy Mathewson?  Hell, you could make a case for Warren Spahn.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 2:11 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nope
You could make a case for Spahn (and Mathewson), but lawyers can "make a case" for anybody.  Clemens is head and shoulders above everyone except Johnson, Grove and Young.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 2:14 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which Clemens, by the way?
Natural or un?
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 2:23 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Second-best hitter?
I dunno about 2nd best ever.

We can debate that all day, but Pete Rose is arguably one of the best hitters, and he's banned too.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2007 2:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Easily...
top three.  Babe Ruth, Ted Williams are the only ones I'd say are better.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 13, 2007 2:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are you forgetting your namesake?
A crime he ain't in, SC.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 2:12 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Babe Ruth
Is the only one who is clearly better.

Williams is in the same room, but that's about it.  Bonds has better career numbers and better peak numbers.  Plus, for 10 years, he was a good defensive player and a basestealer--something you can't say about Williams.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll take Williams over Bonds
The years Williams lost due to military service would have reasonably added 150 homers and 500 RBI to his totals, which would put him at 5th and 1st all-time in those categories.  And I guess Bonds's artificial late 30's peak is better than Williams's natural one (during which he lost 3 seasons), but I just can't give him full credit for that.  If you're looking purely at performance and discounting the incredible likelihood of performance enhancement, fine, but I don't really see the point in not looking at all factors when making these sort of all-time comparisons.

by Ryno on Dec 13, 2007 2:55 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes...
Williams missed three years during his peak.  And yes, Bonds is a roidhead.  But we can only judge based on the numbers -- comparing what players "might" or "should have" isn't a legitimate comparison.

Williams hit for a better average than Bonds (though in a notoriously average-friendly park).  Bonds gets the advantage in walks, power, basestealing and defense.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 3:36 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To be fair
Bonds also played in an expansion age of watered-down pitching.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 3:38 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not compared to Teddy Ballgame
Are you fogetting the Era of Specialization (LOOGY's, middle relief, closers)?  And night baseball?  And West Coast travel?

Tough to make fair comparisons.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 3:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll take Williams, period.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 3:54 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just being a shitty
arguer.  I dig Ted Effing Williams almost more than any other player in history (except for Willie Mays - the all-time greatest ballplayer).
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 4:03 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can you imagine?
Teddy Ballgame comes back in '46 after three full seasons off shooting down the enemy and says, hey Newhouser, you two-time reigning MVP in my absence, how about a little .342/.497/.667/215 OPS+ in your eye?
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 4:20 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where are the "eff" bombs?
A man's man - shooting down the Axis of Evil (the real one), bedding down beauties, drinking hard, slamming HR's and hitting .400, angling for world-record game fish, all while telling the world to kiss his ass.  

THAT's a fantasy life.  And now his head and body are separated.  For eternity.  What a lunatic kid he had.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 4:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Plus...
Williams benefited from the fact that the quality of play in the immediate postwar years wasn't that great.  A lot of rusty ballplayers trying to recapture their skills, and a lot of marginally talented holdovers from the wartime leagues.

Re: Bonds and Williams, one stat is telling.  Ted Williams hit 35+ HR five times in his career.  Pre-roids Bonds did it five times as well (isx if you count 1999 as "pre-roids").  The difference?  That includes 19 seasons on the part of Williams, and only 14 on the part of Bonds.

And again, I keep coming back to it -- through the mid 90s, Barry Bonds was a good defender and a very good basestealer.  Williams was always indifferent on the field and average on the basepaths.  That has to count for a lot.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 4:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seasons were 154 games
vs 162, BriJ.  Keep it real.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 4:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: the HR factor
I can't say much about his defense or the base-stealing of the time back then, but so what on the HR factor? There were four 50 home run seasons by anybody during Williams' career...there were seasons where that many guys hit 50 in Bonds' day.

Look at their respective OPS+ numbers, which include Barry's inflate-o years. Williams still ahead, adjusted for league average and ballpark.

"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 4:55 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Both of them...
Looks like there were five 50+ HR seasons during their non-roidal careers (pre-1998 for Bonds).  Though that includes a lot more seasons for Williams.  Though there were multiple 50+ HR seasons in 1938 and 1961 (the years before and after he retired).

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 5:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm lost...
Seems to me that Williams' OPS and OPS+ totals are better than Bonds' even including Bonds' roidal years.

Take out the roidal years, and even without giving Williams any credit for time served (in the military, that is), and Williams looks that much better, no?

"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 5:40 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

to interject myself
into an argument that i'm not party to, i'd just note that jay jaffe's JAWS system ranks bonds #2 all-time with 213.9/70.9/142.4. teddy ballgame, on the other hand, ranks #12 with 170.3/90.6/130.5.

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3524

carry on.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 5:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

by the way
you'll note the date of that article for bonds' number. he's added about two seasons worth of production since then.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 5:56 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Williams missed
part of 5 seasons (prime seasons) due to military service.'
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 13, 2007 7:35 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, that's been pointed out already
and i agree with Joe that playing the woulda coulda shoulda game isn't really all that helpful.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 8:45 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll also interject here, if I might
It seems to me, Larry, that you're misaligning some of your argument here (and I don't point this out for any measure of other than curiosity). The JAWS system specifically makes allowances for seasons lost due to injury or war. Also, inherent in the system is taking into consideration a player's peak WARP years. Taking this into account, isn't it remiss not to at least acknowledge peak years that Ted Williams didn't play? If you are going to reference a system that is based, partially at least, on a player's peak performance years, isn't it important to note that said player actually did not play all those years? Sure, this system takes their absence into account, but there is no telling what kind of numbers Williams would have put up.

Maybe there is something I've missed; let me know what you think.

by HulkSmash on Dec 13, 2007 9:32 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i wasn't arguing anything
i was interjecting something for these two to consider in their pissing contest. i don't really have an opinion on who is better. go ahead and acknowledge it. i just don't like guesswork that much. what would have happened if bonds started taking roids earlier?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 9:17 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His head would be bigger
than the Bean in Millenium Park.

You interjecter, you.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 9:33 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

silly, WU
that was the HGH. the steroids would make his penis smaller than keith's. oh, no, i just didn't.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 9:38 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Bean
The Bean, officially known as Cloud Gate, is a 110 ton sculpture made of 168 1/4 inch stainless steel plates.  It was originally assembled in California, taken back apart, shipped to Chicago and welded back together.  Overall, it took 2.5 years to complete Cloud Gate with a price tag of about 23 million dollars (or double the price of a Florida Marlins payroll).  Cloud Gate was inspired by a drop of mercury and also has a trap door to its interior.  The interior is built similarly to a ship's frame made of wooden beams, which allows it expand and contract as the weather changes in Chicago.  Because of Cloud Gate's immense weight, it also has a 15 ton support structure that stops it from falling through  into the parking garage below.  The courtyard which Cloud Gate sits on is actually concrete poured over 8 feet if industrial styrofoam.

Sorry, worked at Millennium Park this summer.  This is like a reflex to me.

www.fratdaddy.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 14, 2007 1:29 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That actually is interesting, raf
Thank you.  I'm going to pass this along to my sister, with whom I photographed in front of the Bean this past Chciago Marathon weekend.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 1:47 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I will certainly agree...
That pre-roidal Bonds was significantly inferior to Williams.

But he did start doing roids.  And his 2001-2004 is about the greated four year stretch in the history of baseball.  At least hitting-wise.

As for numbers, Bonds wins in peak and longevity.  Williams wins in career averages.  Bonds wins in defense and stolen bases.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 6:29 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By a shitty arguer maybe...
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 3:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All-Baltimore Users Team:
Stolen shamelessly from Jim's place:

1B- Rafael Palmeiro
2B- Brian Roberts
SS- Miguel Tejada
OF- Brady Anderson
OF- Sammy Sosa
DH- Dave Segui
SP- Jay Gibbons
RP- Jason Grimsley
http://soxmachine.com/blogs/soxmachine/archive/2007/12/13/11545.aspx#comments

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2007 2:04 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

jay gibbons
can pitch!?
12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 13, 2007 2:06 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes.
Plays CF and Leadoff too.

Hey!  Not my list, take it up with the poster at the link.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2007 2:08 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

fine
i wasnt tryin to harp on you chi, i just didnt know he was a RF/LF/DH/SP.
12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 13, 2007 2:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jay Gibbons... SP?
Jay Gibbons... DH/1B/OF ya mean.

That is pretty sick though to look at.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2007 2:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clemens, figures - I never liked that asshole
"Oh, the Yankees have just signed Roger Clemens!"  

I hope he gets twice the grief of what Bonds has gotten.
========

Later that summer, Clemens asked McNamee to inject him with Winstrol, which
Clemens supplied. McNamee knew the substance was Winstrol because the vials Clemens gave
him were so labeled. McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over
a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in
Clemens's apartment at the SkyDome. McNamee never asked Clemens where he obtained the
steroids...

According to McNamee, from the time that McNamee injected Clemens with
Winstrol through the end of the 1998 season, Clemens's performance showed remarkable
improvement. During this period of improved performance, Clemens told McNamee that the
steroids "had a pretty good effect" on him. McNamee said that Clemens also was training harder
and dieting better during this time.

In 1999, Clemens was traded to the New York Yankees. McNamee remained
under contract with the Blue Jays for the 1999 season. In 2000, the Yankees hired McNamee as
the assistant strength and conditioning coach under Jeff Mangold. According to McNamee, the
Yankees hired him because Clemens persuaded them to do so. In this capacity, McNamee
worked with all of the Yankees players. McNamee was paid both by the Yankees and by
Clemens personally. Clemens hired McNamee to train him during portions of several weeks in
the off-season. McNamee also trained Clemens personally for one to two weeks during spring
training and a few times during the season. McNamee served as the Yankees' assistant strength
and conditioning coach through the 2001 season.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 2:09 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When does baseball test for roids?
Isn't it just during spring training?  Probably explains why this prick held out the last two springs after baseball started testing.
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The part I like is that he's still
"supportive" of the supplier, all the way through 2007.

As a guy near Clemens' age, it's incredibly difficult to maintain that physical edge in your 40's.  And it only accelerates the closer you get to 50.  "Juice Box Guy" (Kicking and Screaming - Will Ferrell, if you haven't seen it) has a whole new meaning for me.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 2:16 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Happiest day of my life
was knocking him out early in Game 1 in the WS.
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 2:18 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So can we officially say the WS
splintered-bat heave toward Piazza was 'roid rage?
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 2:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This pisses me off - Bill effin' Simmons
ripping me off:

"1. Remember when we spent hours analyzing that clip from the 2000 World Series and wondering why Clemens would ever grab the broken handle of Mike Piazza's bat, then angrily whip it at him for no sane reason? 'Roid rage, baby! The riddle has been solved! It's like seeing video of a second shooter in the grassy knoll in Dallas."

Hil-a-ri-ous, Billy.  BWAHAHAHA!

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 7:34 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This year's HOF ballot...
3 new players on the ballot were implicated...

Brady Anderson
Chuck Knoblauch
David Justice

and of course, everyone's fave from last year...

Mark McGuire.

Guess it's safe to say no one is going to rush to vote those guys in any time soon.

That makes Tim Raines a very likely candidate this year.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 13, 2007 2:12 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

jeeZ
Scott Schoenweiis my heart is broken!, Psych

by tdegard on Dec 13, 2007 2:14 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's what I've learned:
Don't write checks when buying dope!
Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 13, 2007 2:18 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So there IS a silver lining -
DI will not appear in any gov't probes - only alien ones.

;)

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, I'm all about alien probes.
It's totally worth the awkwardness to get to FLY AROUND in SPACE on a UFO!  What would you go through to get to fly around in space, WU?
Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 13, 2007 2:34 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Almost anything except:
  1.  My 5-year old daughter.
  2.  The 2005 WS championship.
  3.  Having to get married again.
All else is in play.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 2:46 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are there any Red Sox on that list?
David Segui played for them toward the end I think and Gagne was traded there in July.  Someone said Nomar, but I didn't see him on the official list.

Either way, I don't care really.  Though hopefully it means Clemens being put through the ringer by the media.  And Frank Thomas being anointed.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2007 2:26 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mo Vaughn
though he might've been gone by the time he started juicing.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 2:31 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh yeah duh.
What a post-free agent world we live in if I can't remember Mo Vaughn not as an Angel but a Red Sock.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2007 3:20 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's what always bugged me with Bonds
I mean, it was obvious that half the league was on roids but he got singled out for the full out media attack.  Clemens' career arc was just as anomalous as Bonds', but no one ever questioned his performance.  Hey, he was just a grindy white guy who worked out really, really hard.  And he was just as big a prick as Bonds, but hey he's white and that's what real gamers are like.  The hypocrisy is disgusting.
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 2:36 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm on a roll!
Another athlete that really bugs me?  Lance Armstrong.  For years, and well past the peak of most mortals, he dominated a ridiculously difficult sport completely infested from top to bottom by the most vigorous sports dopers in the world.  But the media doesn't bother to look at the circumstantial evidence nor the endless allegations.  Nope, show me a picture with him with a needle in his butt.  Don't have one? See, he's a genuine American Hero, let's give him a presidential medal.  A real ubergrinder.  Somehow I don't think that would be the case if he were Black, Hispanic or Asian - the whispered innuendoes would be deafening.
"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 13, 2007 3:10 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And whose fault is that?
I've thought about this a lot but I can't fully come to that conclusion.  Bonds is just the poster boy because he played for so long and suddenly turned into a zeppelin over one off-season.  Are people unfairly coddling Giambi and Conseco?
Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 13, 2007 3:12 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One thing
about Canseco and Giambi...they both copped to it.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 3:13 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another reason Bonds sucks.
And Canseco was made out to be a lying fool, despite beig fully right, by the same media that hates on Bonds.
Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 13, 2007 3:46 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly...
that's why I don't think Canseco or Giambi are being unfairly coddled.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 3:48 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, the Sox are looking pretty good today.
I was just thinking about Magglio and Carlos Lee coming up through our system as power hitters and not being mentioned at all (from what I've heard so far).  Am I wrong in thinking this is a pretty good day for the White Sox?
Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 13, 2007 3:08 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think everybody needs to remember
that this report was based on only a few sources in the end. Note the high number of players for certain clubs, etc. This isn't some sort of exhuastive list...it's just a list of guys who were linked by what the Mitchell guys believed was enough corroborating evidence.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 3:10 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay.
And you don't think that's because some organizations allowed it (or at least looked the other way)?  

Side note:  I am so freakin' disappointed that Pujols has been implecated.  I thought he was one of the good ones.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 13, 2007 3:15 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My point was
that just because they weren't named in the Mitchell Report doesn't mean player x, y, or z didn't do the 'roids.

So yeah, it's a good day for the White Sox in that only Shoeneweis and Parque were implicated, but that alone doesn't exclude anybody either.

"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 3:17 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fat Albert wasn't named
A St. Louis TV station jumped the gun this morning before the report was released.  His name doesn't appear in the Mitchell Report.  So shine on you crazy diamond.
Caulk the wagon.

by rebstock on Dec 13, 2007 3:30 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, I guess he's on the early list.
The list of guys who Mitchell couldn't fully indict.
Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 13, 2007 3:36 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not just that, but
are we looking at (no irony intended) moral victories?  It isn't like the Yankees are getting their WS crowns taken away, as opposed to Marion Jones getting stripped of her 2000 medals, so what are the repercussions other than embarassment?  So we're clean - that's great, we're all going to heaven.

But we still suck.  Naturally.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 3:19 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks, Jay Marrioti!
I'm just trying to load up on ammo for the next time I find myself having to talk to an uppity Jankee fan!
Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 13, 2007 3:37 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yankees sign Arod after the mitchell report
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071213&content_id=2324707&vkey=hotstove2007&fe xt=.jsp

Hes got my support for the next decade, even if he is a prick.

"I'm not a 6-year-old." -Brian Nikola "Ungrindy" Anderson

by omnipotent grab on Dec 13, 2007 3:11 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

latin america
Baseball camps also are said to have major PED issues. The Mitchell report doesn't have many (if any) Latin players on it. It's not too much of a stretch to think they have their own distribution channels and aren't using some clubhouse dude.

Latin players have a lot more incentive to use PEDs. If somebody in that world will talk, I think it would dwarf this Mitchell report for the # of players involved.

by ruffster on Dec 13, 2007 3:36 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Test Uribe!
He didn't hit .234 in '07 with raw talent alone!
"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 13, 2007 3:46 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They don't even have bank
accounts - ergo, no checks.  Much easier to disguise stupidity with cash.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 3:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are you telling me
Eric Gagne needed "help" to achieve 84 straight saves? Dang.
"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 13, 2007 3:39 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Steroids aside...
any word on Joe Crede?  Weren't the White Sox supposed to have made a decision on him last night?  I can't find anything about the Sox offering him a contract or arbitration.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 13, 2007 3:44 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

weird
i was just going to ask that.
12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 13, 2007 3:51 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he was offered a contract
notice how he's still on the 40.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 3:55 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

after seeing the rpt...
... all the more reason to appreciate true greats and guys whose strength was legendary and natural-- Rice, Goose, Ryan, Aaron, Ruth, F Thomas, Dick Allen, etc.

by ruffster on Dec 13, 2007 3:52 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ed Walsh - 1908 baby!
"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 13, 2007 3:57 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hoss Radburn! 1884.
Chiburb was there!
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 4:05 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol
Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 13, 2007 4:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL?!? LOL?!?
go to your room.
It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 13, 2007 5:41 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

*Radbourn*, sorry
FIFTY NINE wins in 1884.  What was he ingesting?
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 4:26 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And then died at age 42
Boy, his pitching coach should've been shot...

And, I poop you not, he supposedly is the originator of the "charley horse".  Swear to God.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 3:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep
That spit on the ball was all natural :)

by hitlesswonder on Dec 13, 2007 4:40 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You mean to tell me...
That McHenry County's finest, THE Northwest Herald, is not good enough for you? Press releases be damned.

Crede offered arbitration

Caulk the wagon.

by rebstock on Dec 13, 2007 3:56 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

just to clarify
offering a contract does not necessarily mean the sox are offering arbitration. they have until early next month to do that. if they can't reach an agreement on a contract before then (likely in the case of crede) then he will be offered arbitration or let go.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 4:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Off topic (I think)
Not that I wanted him back...and not that he may or may not be "enhancing" his performance, but did Legend simply go after the cash? SF isn't much of a "grinder" town. Aren't they a bunch of sushi lovers?
"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 13, 2007 4:22 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting.
I knew as many people in Chicago as I do here who eat sushi. The difference is that when people eat sushi here, it's fresh.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 4:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Show me who you walk with,
and I'll show you who you are, Toonder.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 4:27 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmmm...
I'll guess you're...a third of a bottle in?
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 4:30 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Still at work
And, yes, those two are mutually exclusive.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 4:31 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You had a chance to do any hiking in Cali?
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 4:33 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Heck...
the Japanese invented sushi, and there ain't a grindier culture than Japan's.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 13, 2007 4:37 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No offense to you sushi lovers
Personally, anything that's not cooked and may contain parasites doesn't make it to my menu.

But what I meant to ask was money Legend's only incentive? Or does he have some ties to the SF area?

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 13, 2007 4:47 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm sure the money
was a huge deal, as was the five years that nobody else would offer. he was also born in oregon and played college ball in california.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 4:49 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Garland is now in CA, too
so he can reminisce.  Like we do.
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 4:51 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as pointed out
he's from the LA area. so it's probably closer to his family (and his wife's) than philly, chicago and so on.

he also mentioned that he wanted stability for his family. now, that can obviously be interpreted as "i'll go to whoever gives me the most money for the most years." but i think we can all agree that there's something to be said for not moving around frequently. rowand's played in a couple major league cities (getting traded once, obviously without his prior approval), not to mention moving around frequently in the minors. going to a team that offers five years as opposed to four and provides no trade protection to one degree or another is attractive.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 13, 2007 5:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you're ever in Denver...
Sushi Den on South Pearl.  Thank me later.  I've only had one better sushi experience in my life (this includes multiple meals in most major cities), in a little ten person hut in some oh-so-trendy neighborhood in LA.  And that cost $300* for two people.  Sushi Den is about $30/person.

* Me:  Hey cousin, I've got dinner.  My client is paying.
Him:  Are you sure?  It's expensive.
Me: No problem!  [Major Chicago corporation] has plenty of money.
[The bill comes.]
Me: Crap.  I can't even try to get away with that.  That's $250 out of my pocket.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 13, 2007 5:00 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Expenses paid...
That is one thing I miss about firm life. Now I have to bring my own utensils and napkins to use at lunch.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 13, 2007 5:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Plastic?
Life on the taxpayers' teat.

Priceless?

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 13, 2007 7:11 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Frank Thomas was one of the
best, pure, clean hitters of the '90's.  Too bad he couldn't receive more recognition due to his relationship with the media and hopping and skipping Sosa.

by ckimcircles on Dec 13, 2007 5:15 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bourne Ultimatum
I remember during the season there was a diary about this movie and how great it was then a big discussion about how it ranks with the other trilogies. Well I finally saw it and its a great movie, my favorite of the 3.
Bring Back BA

by marco054 on Dec 13, 2007 5:58 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PK
- The White Sox are listening to offers for Paul Konerko. Maybe if the White Sox would absorb some of the cash, the Giants would be interested. They seem to be interested in aging players right now.

http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

by tbone328 on Dec 13, 2007 6:02 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mostly based on an blurb in an article by...
Mark Gonzales in the Chicago Tribune:

Link:

Crede, who can become a free agent after 2008, makes the most sense for the Sox to trade for an outfielder. But the Sox could listen to offers for first baseman Paul Konerko, who might bring the most value.

Konerko, a staple of the Sox offense, will receive full no-trade rights in May by virtue of playing in the majors for at least 10 seasons, including the last five with the Sox.

It shouldn't come down to that, but the failure to sign an outfielder, lack of depth in the farm system and a plethora of limited and full no-trade clauses limits flexibility to upgrade the roster.

I believe Bruce LeVineLine of ESPN 1000 also said that Konerko would be traded this offseason.  I guess we shall see.

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 6:07 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

absorb cash?
konerko looks like a relative bargain at 12 mil per when you have aaron rowand and fukudome making this much per year.  no way do we pay any of that.
12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 13, 2007 7:00 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have no idea who
we would get back from the Giants.  They have a couple decent second base prospects, for which we have little need and then Cain and Lincecum.  If they give up either of those two, then Sabean should be run out of town on a rail.  If Kenny pulled that off, I'd be ecstatic.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2007 7:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd probably give
Paulie, Danks, Gio, Fields, Richar and the entire Charlotte Knights rotation for Lincecum.  And Ozzie.
"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Dec 13, 2007 8:00 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Mariners may make more sense
Sexson, IIRC, only has one more year on his contract.  He's not very good, but to balance out salaries the Sox could trade Konerko for Sexson + others.  Clement would have to be part of the deal, no doubt, and I'd also hope to get back one more good prospect -- Balentein, Clement and Sexson for Konerko?  Mind you I'm not doing this deal in the least bit for Sexson, but it frees up $24 million beyond 2008 (I'm about 90% sure Sexson's contract is done after this season -- if it's not obviously my idea is scrapped) and nets you players that look just about ready (Clement can get time behind AJ this year and Balentein could break in during 2009).

by CWSKeith on Dec 13, 2007 8:16 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't really see why the Mariners...
would make this deal?  They may as well keep Sexson for one more season at 1B and hope he bounces back to his 2006 numbers and also keep two talented young players in Balentein and Clement.

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 9:03 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But you are right about Sexson's contract...
The Mariners will pay Sexson $14 million in 2008 and then he is a free agent.

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 9:10 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're probably right
although at this point I'd say Konerko is a better player than Sexson -- even Sexson's 2006 wasn't very good (.338 OBP).  

Maybe Sexson and both those guys, but I'd say Konerko for Sexson + Clement is definitely a reasonable offer although if Sexson doesn't bounce back he becomes a pretty useless player.

by CWSKeith on Dec 13, 2007 9:58 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that should read
maybe not Sexson and both those guys.

by CWSKeith on Dec 13, 2007 9:59 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay
Konerko and Crede for one of Lincecum or Cain.  That sounds semi-plausible.  If you're Sabean and you want to have some semblance of an offense, that could make you look okay.  Obviously, they have no problem signing huge contracts with Scott Boras, so if Crede works out, they could certainly sign him.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 13, 2007 7:58 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well...no...
I wish it were, but I don't think that's plausible. Crede has to have very little trade value. Maybe Konerko, Crede, Danks could get Sabean to think about trading Cain. Maybe.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 13, 2007 8:13 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re: Crede
I agree with the prevailing opinion that Crede has little trade value.  But I have this feeling that he is going to turn out to be one of the "low value, high return" kind of guys that KW usually acquires.  But instead, we'll be giving him away.

I think we're going to wind up watching him play at '06 levels for someone else.  We were never going to sign him anyway, but this injury is just going to mean we'll get a middling prospect while someone gets a valuable 3B.

Bears eat beets.

by Nordhagen on Dec 13, 2007 9:17 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And colin
I must say, despite the fact that I've been rather perturbed about much of the offseason (mostly the direction or lack thereof -- not so much actually missing out on Cabrera, Hunter, Fukodome), I actually sort of agree with you with regards to 2008.  I know you and bhoov have posted at various times this winter about the collective crap that we had last year at 3B, SS, LF and CF, but if you have time, do you think you can compile those lines (not all as one, but for each position) in this thread?  It'd be greatly appreciated.

Anyways -- maybe I'm overexaggerating, but I don't think we got a .700 OPS out of any of the four positions I mentioned.  With Cabrera, Quentin and Fields, you have one guy who's good for a ~.725 OPS, and two others who are looking like .~775 OPS players -- and I'd say all three of those are (relatively) pessimistic predictions.  There's a good chance either Quentin or Fields hits for an .800 OPS and Cabrera may be closer to .750.

If the Sox added Mike Cameron -- who, for the first time was actually mentioned in an article with relation to the Sox (although I'm not sure if that's just because he's the only real CFer out there or what) -- that's another .775 OPS player.  So there's four spots where your adding anywhere from 50-to-100 OPS improvements.  Seeing that there's going to be no 'downgrades' anywhere else in the lineup (and you can conceivably say Dye and Konerko 'bounce back' a little bit), you're looking at one massively improved offense.

Mind you, I'm not saying that makes the Sox a 95 win team, but provided they upgrade at CF, I'd say they're looking like a low-to-mid 80s-win team, with 'luck' pushing their win total a few wins in either direction.

by CWSKeith on Dec 13, 2007 8:28 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice contracts for Mackowiak and Willie...
Link:
Free-agent utility players Rob Mackowiak and Willie Harris agreed to 2008 contracts Thursday with the Washington Nationals, who also avoided arbitration with reliever Jesus Colome by settling on a $1.25 million, one-year deal.

Mackowiak, who played for the White Sox and Padres last season, will make $1.5 million. Harris, with Atlanta in 2007, gets $800,000. There are no incentive clauses in either of those deals.

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 6:02 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How awful is this?
Rob Mackowiak ($1.5 million) + Willie Harris ($800,000) = $2.3 million
Juan Uribe = $4.5 million

You can have Mackowiak and Willie on your bench for $2.3 million or Uribe on your bench for $4.5 million.  Kenny really botched the hell out of this offseason.

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 9:08 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2 spots on the roster?
but we wanted one to protect fernando hernandez

oh wait, never mind...

by The Wizard on Dec 14, 2007 2:45 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So who is Kenny going to acquire?
Our 40-man roster is now at 39 after the White Sox dumped Andy Gonzalez and Heath Phillips.

by SSH2005 on Dec 13, 2007 7:10 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fernando Hernandez
... oh wait.
"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Dec 13, 2007 8:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If anyone wants a good laugh
Check out some of the comments on Deadspin on the player-specific posts

The Paul  Lo Duca one is pretty damn funny:

"Don't steroids help you succeed in the major leagues?"
"Paul Lo Duca."
"Sorry; my bad."

"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Dec 13, 2007 7:57 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For you lazy fucks
Deadspin
"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Dec 13, 2007 7:57 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No Sosa?
Did I miss it? This might be the biggest surprise. And I guess as someone mentioned earlier it's probably the DR/steroids easily available/cash combination that may get Sosa in on his first ballot HOF.

by bhoov on Dec 13, 2007 10:09 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Steroids in Baseball
"Used to be getting up for the game was sort of a spiritual thing...", George Carlin

Eventually it will all come out, who used steroids and who didn't until then everyone is suspect. We need a few players, other than Conseco, who now seems much more honorable than many others, to begin coming forward with the truth. We deal with a bunch of cowards who have known the steroids were being used and turned their heads-Oh for a real man to step forward.
What happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse while the fans wait for the full story.

by Florida Jim on Dec 14, 2007 8:31 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

REAL men, Jim:
And did not roll over
"Never rat on your friends, and keep your mouth shut."  Words by which to live.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 02:46:36 PM EDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]  

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 8:50 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's the stupidest quote I've ever read
If your friends are doing something illegal and immoral that could damage the lives and careers of those closest to them (including themselves and YOU), hell fucking yes you should take intervention.  Maybe not by "ratting them out" to authorities, but you shouldn't just turn the other cheek.
"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Dec 14, 2007 12:30 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mjt, lighten up
It's a "Goodfellas" quote.  Making sport of it.

'roid rage, indeed...

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 12:33 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hmmm
Jimmy Conway: What's the fuckin' matter with you? What - what is the fuckin' matter with you? What are you, stupid or what? Tommy, Tommy, I'm kidding with you. What the fuck are you doin'? What are you, a fuckin' sick maniac?
Tommy DeVito: How am I meant to know you're kidding? What you mean, you're kidding? You breaking my fuckin' balls?
Jimmy Conway: I'm fuckin' kidding with you! You fuckin' shoot the guy?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 12:39 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I mean, funny like a clown?
Do I amuse you?
"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 12:51 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know I have sinned
but I've never seen Goodfellas.  My bad.
"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Dec 14, 2007 12:51 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's good.
However, I think people hype Italian mob movies wayyyy too much.  I just don't see it.  Oh, and Scarface?  Pffftttt.  A good mob movie is Jim Jarmusch's Ghost Dog.
www.fratdaddy.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 14, 2007 1:33 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nothing like...
a little RZA backbeat to go with some crazy-eyed Forest samurai.
"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 14, 2007 1:35 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ghost Dog over...
Goodfellas and Scarface?

...

Are you kidding me?

Are you gonna say Ghost Dog is better than the Godfather too?

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 15, 2007 9:32 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No
Scarface is a pretty overrated film.  There's nothing even that creative there, just guns and coke.  Scarface is a film along the lines of Rambo II.  Goodfellas is much better, but what I'm saying is that the mob movie is a tired genre with not much creativity.  Mob guys do drugs, whack each other, go to jail, tragedy occurs, etc.  People just gravitate towards the subject for some reason.  Godfather was a great movie, however I think you can figure out I wouldn't say it's the best movie ever made, imo.
www.fratdaddy.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 15, 2007 1:20 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

RZA
"How can hip-hop be dead if Wu-Tang is forever?" -Rza
www.fratdaddy.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 14, 2007 1:42 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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