The problem with Mike Cameron

by The Wizard on Dec 13, 2007 11:25 PM CST in Quotes Comment 118 comments

Of the remaining free agent center fielders, Mike Cameron will start the season serving a 25-game suspension for his second violation for testing positive for a stimulant. Cameron's 160 strikeouts and .328 on-base percentage don't mesh with the Sox's emphasis on working deep into counts and reaching base.

Emphasis on working deep into counts and reaching base? Was Greg Walker let go and I missed it?

***** In other news,

Jim reminds us: why was Andy Gonzalez DFA'ed now and not before Fernando Hernandez was left unprotected?
ZiPS projections: Rowand: .277/.340/.427, Tejada: .303/.359/.461 (luke scott: .252/.340/.471), Iguchi: .259/.339/.369. BTW, BP on the Tejada deal: Tejada to Houston, Junk to Baltimore.
Latest signings: Blue Jays sign David Eckstein to a 1/4.5 deal. Twinkies sign Adam Everett to a 1/2.8 deal. Rays sign Cliff Floyd to a 1/3 (5 with incentives) deal. Rangers sign Kazuo Fukomori to a 2/3 deal. Nationals sign Rob Mackowiak and Willie Harris to 1/1.5 and 1/0.8 deals. BTB's take on the above signings.
Dave van Dyck gives a brief summary of the Mitchell Report.
FireKennyWilliams.com has been registered. By Major League Baseball. FireGregWalker.com is available though.
Anatomy of a player: League Average Pitcher. Preface by Tango.

0 recs | Comment 118 comments

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Thanks a bunch wiz

I should be back in earnest from now on... Took a crash course in PHP this week.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 13, 2007 11:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

how and where and how much?

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 14, 2007 2:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

okie-dokie!

by The Wizard on Dec 14, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I enjoyed BBTF today

I didn't have the time to read all the comments (or even a fraction of them) and participate, but I found these two comments really illustrate why I love that site...

From before the documents were released...

Roger Clemens is named in that thing

No he's not. A dropped cell phone call can make a huge difference. The conversation went like this:

Reporter: Is Roger Clemens on the list? If he is, just don't say anything:

Source: (dropped call)

Reporter: Roger Clemens is a roider! Pulitzer, here I come!

As soon as the mitchell report became available online

Roger Clemens kills Dumbledore.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 13, 2007 11:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

All things considered

wouldn't you rather have Ecsktein @ 4.5M, Garland in your back pocket as a trade piece, and be looking for a backup SS right now?

I know most of us cringed at the thought of Eckstein's looming 3/$21MM contract possibility, but would we have known that he would have signed for just a year at under $5M, I think we all would have accepted.

Also, I don't think we could have foreseen Adam Everett being non-tendered. That's an excellent pickup for the Twins. Sure he can't hit, but I was really confused by the Harris/Bartlett swap. This allows Harris to move to a less defensive oriented IF position, and maintains (probably improves) the Twins excellent SS defense.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 14, 2007 12:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Well, yes

Actually, the Jays did what you want -- sign the guy with a glove that can't hit (MacDonald) for insurance and then sign Eckstein when his price came down.

So, Williams made a mistake in being too aggressive. He traded Garland before the market was set. I guess he really liked Cabrera and wanted to free up the money to nab Linebrink (ugg). Or he wanted to impress Hunter with the upgrade at SS. I really don't feel like criticizing Williams much more than that. I'm saving it up for the Crisp/Pierre trade.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 14, 2007 12:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And if he signs Cameron?

I think that would be grounds for a SSS (pants) party and celebration. It would be the only SSS sanctioned move of the winter (not that obtaining Quentin was bad, mind you, just sort of unexpected) and besides, it would get us all in one place so tubesox can buy is our drinks (or in my case, virgin pina colada).

by CWSKeith on Dec 14, 2007 1:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm down

Where are we going? Shinnik's?

www.fratdaddy.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 14, 2007 1:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kenny would then say that Cameron...

was his top CF target. The funny thing is that Cameron's career OBP is .341 -- higher than both Torii Hunter's (.324) and Coco Crisp's (.329) and similar to both Andruw Jones' (.342) and Aaron Rowand (.343). If Cameron bounces back to his 2006 numbers, he could be a good deal in this market.

If Kenny doesn't sign Cameron, it probably really was about money the entire time.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 5:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I would have agreed before

advanced metrics indicated Eck may longer be a MLB SS. Fielding Bible -14, UZR -10, PMR -9. The fact that they all agree really makes me believe he's truly 10 runs below average and one of the 6 worst fielding starting SS in baseball. Of course you could still argue that even factoring that in Eck + Garland > OCab. Although I think I'd maybe rather have Everett at that price than any of them with his +20-30 glove.

by bhoov on Dec 14, 2007 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

a better question is

was he ever a major league SS?

everett becoming available really makes the sox' decision look bad. i was worried at the time of the garland trade that they were setting the market for starting pitching and perhaps should have waited - i wasn't so concerned with what they acquired, though. i think KW bought into what many of us bought into: that the market for SS would be thin this offseason so better to strike quickly if you find one available (renteria, after all, had already been dealt). i don't think it's really appropriate in this case to second-guess KW's decision to acquire a SS because, based on what everyone thought at the time, it wasn't a bad idea - certainly not as bad as it looks now.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 10:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

4 comments in a row

Just call me SSH...

Bobby Jenks

"Being out here [Chicago during the off-season], it keeps me in check and knowing I can't go out or do something crazy without it being in the paper or the fans seeing how big of a jackass I could be," the 6-foot-3-inch, 275-pound Jenks said.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 14, 2007 12:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Beggars can't be choosers

At this point the only available CF options on the free agent market are Corey Patterson and Mike Cameron. And since Patterson is basically a Uribe clone at a different position, that leaves only Cameron.

If the Sox grabbed Cameron, I'd be relatively happy with our offense. It would be a group prone to long slumps but with power in the lineup at every spot -- I think every guy in the lineup would hit at least 10 except for the OC, and even he'd have an outside chance at it. The offense would be rather similar to the high slugging groups we saw in the early part of this decade.

Of course, that says nothing about our back three of Danks/Floyd/Contreras, but I don't think there's a whole lot that's going to change with those three. As mentioned in the diary, .500 is looking realistic (I'd say adding Cameron tips them two games above) with an outside chance at high-80s. And I know that's nowhere near good enough in the AL, but that basically covers the Cheat/SSS plan outlined earlier this winter, right?

by CWSKeith on Dec 14, 2007 12:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

close

I had a bona fide OBP machine in LF... Quentin, while much cheaper, is a hope-and-a-prayer right now.

Oh, and I was against signing any Type A guys, let alone Type A relievers who get 4-year contracts and no-trade clauses.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 14, 2007 12:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

Linebrink is obviously the glaring exception which is a real shame -- obviously we don't have medical reports, but don't guys like Matt Wise and Akinora Otsuka have about the same chance of putting up equal or better numbers to Linebrink in 2008?

But I digress -- I've talked way too much about that damned contract.

by CWSKeith on Dec 14, 2007 12:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ack, beat me to it.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 5:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Quentin's minor league numbers

give me faith. His actual power was well overstated, but I think his line drive and on base skills will transfer well. I really like a .290/.370/.470 peak for him.

But then again, I saw some of his at bats while he was rehabbing in AAA on Fox Sports Pacific on digital cable. They did not look super fab.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 14, 2007 2:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The worst thing about Linebrink...

is that there are now two relievers (Otsuka & Wise) available on the cheap that we would not have lost any picks from signing and they could possibly perform just as well as Linebrink.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 5:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's why I like Mike Cameron

Check out his righty/lefty split for OBP and SLG

He kiiiiilllls lefties, something our lineup is in serious need of, especially with Thome suffering the way he does against them. With Fields and Cameron, we could really transform out performance against lefties.

And the month off is a tryout for Jerry Owens. Let's make sure we know what he can do. That could be far worse a fate, considering the actual fate of the '08 Sox isn't that important. The expectations aren't high enough for a lost season to be overly disappointing.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 14, 2007 2:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what does striking out have to do with anything?

"Cameron's 160 strikeouts ... don't mesh with the Sox's emphasis on working deep into counts and reaching base."

If anything the strikeouts are a sign that he DOES work deep into counts; he's just not a contact hitter. (See: Dunn, Adam.)

by thedpr on Dec 14, 2007 6:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Strikeouts are...

...evil. EEEEEVVVVVIIIILLLL!!

/sportswriters everywhere

by JasonC23 on Dec 14, 2007 8:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sign Cameron for two years...

He got busted for testing positive for a banned stimulant but it was not steroids. He was not in the Mitchell Report either. The downside is that he will miss the first 25 games of the season but this will also make him come cheaper.

I'm not paying to watch filth like Jerry Owens starting in CF (except for the first 25 games of the season if we sign Cameron).

SS Cabrera
LF Quentin
DH Thome
1B Konerko
RF Dye
CF Cameron
C Pierzynski
3B Fields
2B Richar

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 8:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i could live with that lineup.

like we've been saying, if danks, floyd, and contreras can keep there ERA's under 5, id say we may be able to win around 78-86 games.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 14, 2007 8:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

let me adjust that

id say max 84 wins

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 14, 2007 8:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm still at 73-75

but I'm cautiously optimistic we haven't seen the last deal. Egg has been plastered on KW's face (the .750 batting average notwithstanding) and he'll do something to redeem himself in the eyes of his Maker, his Father, and his Team.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 8:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

could be

for us to have 73-75 wins again, our hitting would have to stay the exact same or our pitching would have to completely implode.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 14, 2007 8:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That lineup would be good for third place...

And I wouldn't even be upset about that. Ah, how quickly expectations change...

by BoKnows on Dec 14, 2007 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder who he'd hit second

if it were me I'd move everyone up a spot (Thome 2nd, Konerko 3rd etc) with Cabrera leading off. Or -- since that may not be practical -- I'd go with who's hot at any given time. That could be Cameron, Richar, Fields or Quentin. I don't want Richar up there permanently as there's a decent chance he may be the worst hitter in the lineup, and I don't want him to have the opportunity of getting the second-most at-bats in any given game.

by CWSKeith on Dec 14, 2007 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

There's no leadoff hitter!!!

The Sox probably will end up forfeiting the first game because they'll be milling around in the dugout unsure who get out and hit first.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 14, 2007 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

excellent!

very funny mental image...

Bears eat beets.

by Nordhagen on Dec 14, 2007 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

do we really

think KW is going to do anything?? honestly, i can see him sitting there with his arms crossed, pouting, and saying hes done making moves. speaking of moves, whats going on with crede? remember about a month ago he said he'd have the crede/fields situation cleared up?

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 14, 2007 8:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

pitches per at bat

mike camerons pitches per at bat last year was 4.09. In comparison to other sox players Thome was at 4.17, paulie and jd sub 4, and our new outfielder carlos quentin was at 3.8. So this makes little sense because he sees more pitches than most hitters in our lineup

by mp11932 on Dec 14, 2007 8:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

hahahah

so basically everyone on here just punked mark gonzalez and made him look like an idiot.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 14, 2007 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gonzales...well....

Has exhibited poor tendencies in the past. I think I can sum things up by saying that he liked Erstad. A lot.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 14, 2007 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cameron

I'd be fine with giving him a deal to play Center especially if the alternative is Jerry Owens.

MrROFL.com

by shaftr on Dec 14, 2007 9:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Otsuka to the Sox?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/phillies-intere.html
thank god kenny didnt pull this one off or there would have been riots. otsuka is damaged goods

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 14, 2007 10:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Can he play Center?

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Dec 14, 2007 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I remember the Otsuka rumor last season...

but there were no names mentioned at the time. I'm glad we got Carlos Quentin for Chris Carter instead.

Kenny can just sign Otsuka if he really wants him now.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Legend on The Score this morning

Aaron Rowand spoke to Pappy this morning. I only caught the last 5 minutes, but he did have the following to say:

"Kenny is doing everything he can to make the team better."

When asked about blood testing for roids/HGH, he said he was in favor of it, but cautioned:

"You can't draw blood from a guy who is about to go out and play baseball. He'll be light-headed."

Light-headed? Is Legend under the impression they take a pint of blood, rather than a small vial for the test?

The classless Mike North also asked him if he was relieved that his name was not on "the list." Legend said that he was never worried about it.

He also re-stated that he had hoped to stay with the Sox for his entire career and that the SF move is giving him the "stability" he wanted (i.e. multiple years with certain guarantees of stayin put for awhile).

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 14, 2007 10:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Quote taken from SoxTalk.com:

Aaron Rowand was on the Mike North Show this morning. He said he got an offer from the Sox 2 months ago, and never heard anything from them after that offer. Rowand waited and waited to hear from the Sox, and the silence told him all he needed to hear.

Sounds like Kenny is a real go-getter in the free agent market.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

JO gives us flexibility.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Dec 14, 2007 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

takes two to tango

there's this thing called a "counteroffer." maybe the silence from rowand was all they needed to hear.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If Legend is running after a ball,

making a beeline for right field, is there a chance he might crash through the wall and fall into the bay with all the dopey kayakers?

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 14, 2007 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Legend?

Wouldn't he be able to just run across the water of the Bay if he crashes though the wall?

by hitlesswonder on Dec 14, 2007 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

True

Legend does "walk on water" with most of his fans.

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 14, 2007 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Counter Offer

"Ring, ring"

Legend (picks up phone): "Hello?"

Legend's Agent: "Hey Buddy Boy, it's me. Hope I'm not interrupting anything."

Legend: "Nope. Just crushing coal into diamonds. What's up?"

Legend's Agent: "Good news. The Sox called and made a nice offer."

Legend: "Boston wants ME? Cool!"

Legend's Agent: "Whoa. Slow down tiger, the WHITE Sox called."

Click.

Legend's Agent: "Aaron? Hello? Are you there?"

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 14, 2007 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

of course, it was paraphrased from Soxtalk, but what does "they gave me an offer, and then I never heard anything from them" mean?

Is there supposed to be a contract offer, followed by pleading and fancy video productions sent? I mean, yeah sure, sometimes there is...

I hate this "you didn't court me enough" stuff. IF of course that is what the problem was...

Bears eat beets.

by Nordhagen on Dec 14, 2007 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the problem is obvious

and has been discussed before. the giants offered five years. everyone knew that, including the sox. you can bet rowand's agent made every team who was remotely interested - and certainly every team who made an offer - aware of this offer to let them match or beat it. from all we've heard, the sox made an initial offer for less years. five years is ridiculous for rowand, especially for teams like the sox and giants who more than likely will not benefit from the actually productive years rowand will likely provide in the first couple years of the contract. there's no need for the sox to do anything after that giants offer is on the table. you walk away and go after other players - which is exactly what KW did with hunter and fukudome.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

KW

I think KW put a decent offer on the table and walked away, promising not to make any foolish deals. Rowand then sat on the couch for two months until San Francisco caved in and gave him 5 years. If anything, I think Kenny did a good job.

Plus, he made realistic and competitive offers for Fukudome, Hunter, and Mcab. I really don't think he's been terrible this offseason. Kenny, go get Cameron and calm the bloggers down.

www.fratdaddy.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 14, 2007 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I

like the way you think, raf.

by dantesox on Dec 14, 2007 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

KW is smart not to get burned

down the road, but it looks like "quality" players (whatever your definition of "quality" may be) are asking - and getting - longer-term contracts to protect themselves.

So, if you want to "win now," do you have to consider getting a couple of productive years from a player now, knowing that the guy might fall off during the last couple of years of his contract?

And...are there guys available out there who can help the Sox win (minimally the division) in 2008 that will accept less years for average to slightly above-average pay?

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 14, 2007 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the simple answer

is that to build a competitive team from a crap team (the position we're in), in the free agent arena, you should look intially to short-term (1-3 year) contracts to give you a bump in wins and make your team attractive to better free agents. then, when it actually makes sense to grab one of these "quality" free agents to put your team over the top, you do it.

aaron rowand is going to be awful in four years. not worth it by a long shot.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think KW is not his biggest fan

Remember, he traded him in the first place. And it seems like Kenny wouldn't do that if he liked him as much as Kenny can like some players. Apparently Rowand was not high on the Sox list of outfielders. The list apparently is/was:

Hunter
Hunter
Hunter
Fukudome
Crisp
Rowand

by hitlesswonder on Dec 14, 2007 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gotta be with SSH on this one.

Williams offers 5 / $15 mil to Hunter and (about the same time) X / Y to Rowand. Hunter gets 5 / $18 mil. Fuk. goes from 3 / 30 to 4 / $48 million? And Williams doesn't adjust his offer EVEN SOMEWHAT UPWARD.

I didn't want Rowand and I'm glad he went elsewhere for 5 years. But SSH's comment was "Sounds like Kenny is a real go-getter in the free agent market," that's all. I guess KW really had very little interest in Rowand for more than a couple of years, period.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Dec 14, 2007 11:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

so not wanting to go to five years for rowand

a very prudent move, even if we take into account the inflation in the market, makes someone not a go-getter? i take it you're in the "i want some action and don't care if it's dumb or not" camp.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No I'm not at all in that camp.

Just stating that if Williams had any REAL interest, other than to just have it be known to fans that I MADE AN OFFER, yes I would expect Williams to make a second offer given that the market for outfielders had changed considerably - IF HE HAD ANY INTEREST. Obviously, he didn't.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Dec 14, 2007 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

he had interest

at the right price and the right years. aaron rowand is an average player whose two years of excellent production can be largely chalked up to aberrant BABIP. even in this market, he's not worth what he got.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Larry

You are missing l in your link for the page that you sponsor. It should read
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtml
Change your signature (:

by indianguy30 on Dec 14, 2007 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i was wondering when someone would catch that

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

(Once again engulfs own member)

And as a free market person, CATO card-carrying guy I imagine you to be (I just got mine), Rowand is worth the money - else he would not be receiving it. You, and your talents, are worth whatever someone is willing to pay (key words here) in today's market, based on all knowledge available today.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i don't buy it

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you believe in efficent markets

you have to buy it. If someone has inside information they have a distinct advantage. If you are a technical/fundamental analyst (as most sabermeticians are, IMO) you might glean a slight advantage in your projections, but not enough to make a difference.

You know these things, man. Valuations are art + science (if the saber stats are meaningful). More and more folks are "in the know" and smarter than many years past, which is making information more accurate and dissemination of such information more efficient.

Thus, Rowand's price is probably closer to the mark today than 30 years ago, but it, as always, is whatever the market bears.

God Bless Financial Freedom.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you argue

that information is more accurate and the dissemination of such information is more efficient than in the past. unless you are asserting that we have now reached the nadir in these pursuits, then markets are not totally efficient. so i don't buy it.

at any rate, even if i were to buy it, we've already gone over how "market" for one team is not "market" for another. a player that improves a team by two wins is more valuable to a team that is already at 90 wins than a team that is at 80 wins.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Valuation is different, then,

but that has nothing to do as to whether or not the player is "valuable" enough to warrant a specific price. And of course markets are not 100% efficient - there are variables of "emotion" and "interpretation of the data by the buyer" to take into account.

But it does mean that, if someone is willing to pay, that person's "worth" is set in the marketplace. Like it or not, agree with it or not. (IMHO, of course.)

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

or there are different markets

i think we're arguing semantics, not substance, anway.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And every ship at the bottom

of the ocean has a chart!

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 14, 2007 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm confused

I should be happy that the Sox didn't go five years with either Rowand or Hunter. Neither of those guys are great players, Hunter will be 37 (?) at the end of the contract and ZiPS barely sees Rowand as a league average hitter next season, much less over the length of the contract.

I'm just trying to rationalize why I don't like Williams at the moment. Obviously the farm system and development and draft issues are part of it (although in his defense, some of that isn't his fault). His assessment of the free agent market seems fine -- err, that damn Linebrink signing sticks out like a sore thumb.

I'm having some issues here (I know I'm setting myself up big time).

by CWSKeith on Dec 14, 2007 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Because Kenny's stance is to compete in 2008...

Otherwise, he wouldn't have signed Linebrink for $19 million dollars. Both the Garland and Quentin trades could be construed as both rebuilding moves and moves to compete in 2008. But there is no doubt that the Linebrink signing was made in an effort to compete in 2008. If you are going to make a move like that, you also need to sign a big name CF'er instead of sticking with a pathetic Jerry Owens there. Quentin is probably going to be a good player but that is still questionable right now. A GM who wants to compete in 2008 does not go with an outfield of Quentin, Owens, and Dye. Hell, even signing Mike Cameron right now would show that Kenny is at least trying. Mike Cameron could outproduce both Hunter and Rowand next season and he will definitely make less money. A guy like Cameron on a 2 or 3 year deal is not going to break the bank so we may as well sign him and improve our offense and defense.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

who cares what his stance is

and i think how one interprets "compete" and how likely one is to believe the puffery in the press of an organization in the business of making money off of you certainly colors people's views. and i can certainly cast doubt on your assertion that the linebrink signing was made in an effort to compete in 2008.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why would any team that is rebuilding...

sign a reliever for $19 million dollars?

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's not a 1/$19MM contract

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

but he's not

on the upside of his career either.

"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 14, 2007 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm just toying with SSH

he's the one who was telling me the other day that aaron rowand's contract will look good in a few years because $12MM won't be anything then. i'm just wondering why the same logic can't apply to linebrink. especially considering KW has apparently had a hard-on for this guy for years. it's a four year deal, not a one year deal. it's no slam dunk to argue that the only reason to sign him to such a contract is that you're planning to "compete" in the first year of that deal.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure, I understand that...

but if you are truly rebuilding, you do what Kenny did last year and acquire a bunch of "no name" relievers with good arms and hope they pan out. You don't waste money on "proven" relievers. You give young arms the chance and the innings to pan out.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's your logic

i would also subscribe to it. but it's not everyone's logic. assuming that everyone thinks the same way as you isn't a good idea.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 14, 2007 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just to jump in

But Kenny doesnt view it "wasted" money, you do. He tried his bullpen one way last year and it didnt work. I am NOT saying it wasnt worth trying again but you make references as if they are accepted facts to everyone.

As Larry said, its not a 1 year deal and certainly he could view moves as working now and in 2-3 years.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Dec 14, 2007 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Multiple sources

state that the White Sox had the highest offer to Fukudome.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 14, 2007 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Williams pain must be unbearable.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Dec 14, 2007 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting

Hunter says he would've taken less, and Fuku takes less (within the same city, no less). So WTF? Too Caucasiod? Too Christian? (Other than management, on both counts.) No one wants to play here unless they've played here?

WTF? This is personal.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Too crappy.

I can understand how an established player would rather play for the Angels or the Cubs than the White Sox - there's a much greater chance of a championship there.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 14, 2007 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Personal problems?

Call Oprah or Dr. Phil. Or at least Springer.

"I was up in the stand and I seen the bear. It came from thar thicket and it was beside the road and I shot it."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 14, 2007 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hey Fukudome

at least make the Cubs up their offer to match the Sox, dammit.

Does that mean the Cubs got him for "below market," given that other teams were willing to pay more?

Bears eat beets.

by Nordhagen on Dec 14, 2007 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Literally, yes

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

KW Comments on Harris and Mackowiak

"It is unfortunate that we were unable to come to an agreement with Willie and Rob. These two guys are the models for Chicago Tough. We kind of feel that the rug was pulled out from under us in these negotiations by the Nationals. We honestly cannot compete with the larger market teams like Washington because we just don't have the resources of these teams.

This will in no way hinder our plans to be a contender in 2008. We will just have to move down to Plan Q on our blackboard and make some other moves to help our ballclub.

We feel that Pablo has shown signs of possibly walking again after his injury last year and hopefully we are able to restructure his contract based on his ability to put pressure on his left leg. Pablo could be a catalyst for the ballclub in ways that Rob was in 2007.

As I speak, our front office is in current negotiations with Steve Finley to take over in Centerfield and we also are talking with Mike Jackson to be our setup man out of the bullpen. We hope to announce these two exciting signings by the end of the day."

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 14, 2007 11:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

BSS, are you in the front office?

Your information is unerring.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

god

not mike jackson..... neal cotts would walk the bases loaded and the king of pop would come in and give up granny's left and right.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 14, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes I work with Kenny

and am currently going to get Kenny 6 Vente Vanilla Skim Latte's from Starbucks. He pounds these when he is nervous about negotiations. I guess he is afraid that Mike Jackson may turn down the Sox offer.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 14, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As long as you are not getting

pounded. He might be tense these days...

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 14, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

HA!

He takes it out on Jerry....

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 14, 2007 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No need...

...to drive to the south Loop or Hyde Park to hit the Starbucks. The Bridgeport Coffee Haus on 31st and Morgan isn't bad.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 14, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Is John Daley keeping Starbucks out?

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Dec 14, 2007 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Naw

Demographics are. The population of Bridgeport consists of blue collar workers with families, old people, Asians, Latinos, and an increasing (but still relatively small) number of yups. Of those, only the last one will spend $5 for a cup of coffee.

(The BCH is a bit of an anomaly. It's in the heart of an arts-centric part of Bridgeport, and it seems to draw a ton of younger artists. I don't think Starbucks would have a shot at picking them up.)

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 14, 2007 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

There is now a

Starbucks on 75th and Stony Island that is doing brisk business every time i go in there. Starbucks would do just fine I think in Bridgeport (especially with all those new condos I see going up). But then again I'm kenwoodRob and you're Bridgeportjoe so what do I know?!

by bhoov on Dec 14, 2007 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

I have seen starbucks work everywhere. I travel a great deal and see them (doing well) in neighborhoods you would be shocked.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Dec 14, 2007 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Steve Finley?! Mike Jackson?!!!

LMAO.

Good stuff.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 14, 2007 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Jeebus, the Brewers' bullpen is stacked...

The Brewers and Luis Vizcaino have reportedly agreed to terms on a two-year, $7 million contract.
So much for Ken Rosenthal's report that he was deciding between the Rockies and Pirates. This is probably about as good of a bullpen bargain as a team is going to get this winter, though it does leave the Brewers with a ridiculous six relievers making at least $3 million (Eric Gagne, David Riske, Derrick Turnbow, Guillermo Mora and Salomon Torres). Lefty specialist Brian Shouse figures to get the other spot, so pitchers like Claudio Vargas, Carlos Villanueva and Manny Parra won't be on the team if they fail to claim rotation spots.

Source: The Journal News

So this offseason, the Brewers have acquired:

Eric Gagne
David Riske
Luis Vizcaino
Guillermo Mota
Salomon Torres

They DFA'd Matt Wise and the Orioles claimed RHP Greg Aquino off waivers from them.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 1:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

When does the 'Roid Party begin??

Gagne - GUILTY!; Mota - GUILTY!; Turnbow - GUILTY!

I thought Riske and Vizcaino were very average when they were with the Sox. The Brewers have invested a ton of $$ in their bullpen next year...they should have spent some of that cash on a starter. (Sheets will get hurt in April - Again).

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 14, 2007 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously...

The Brewers clubhouse is the new HGH distribution center for the upper-mid west.

That is a ridiculously over-done bullpen especially when there are rotation problems and other positions they could've focused on (3B anyone?)

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 14, 2007 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Linebrink at 4 / $19 mm or Vizcaino at 2 / $7 mm ?

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Geoff Jenkins narrows choice to Phils, Pads...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7564680

Sounds like Kenny has a legit shot at Mike Cameron if he wants him.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 2:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Royals acquire infielder Alberto Callaspo...

from Arizona in exchange for pitcher Billy Buckner.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 2:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

That'll be fun to follow

Callaspo was/is a better prospect than Richar. Buckner is Lance Broadway, you know, if Broadway actually threw strikes.

Looks like the royals got more for less than the Sox did at the same position from the same team.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 14, 2007 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Callaspo

Does have the domestic violence issue.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 14, 2007 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Meh.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Meh?

Elaborate?

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 15, 2007 12:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And

many scouts question whether he can really be an everyday player.... He's Luis Castillo lite. He might have some more power, though it's still a negligible tool, but he'll get on base less. He's got incredible contact skills, which will be interesting to watch develop.

I wouldn't be enthused would we have traded for him. I was just pointing out that Callaspo is a more highly regarded than richar, and Buckner pretty comparable to Broadway, who we (well, most of us) regard as having little trade value due to his back of the rotation tag.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 14, 2007 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not so sure

that's the case anymore. Prior to this past year that was clearly the case. At AAA at the same age they were very similar with Callaspo a little better in a higher run environment. However, Callaspo has posted an amazingly bad .552 major league OPS, while Richar was at .695 in a similar number of ABs. For comparison Andy Gonzalez posted a .529 OPS in about the same number of ABs. Now I'm not saying Callaspo is as bad as AG (he obviuosly has a much better minor league track record and 200 ABs is a small sample), just that I would rather have Richar than someone who looked like AG for 200 MLB ABs.

So over the last year Richar's composite performance was better at the same age.

by bhoov on Dec 14, 2007 6:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's gonna suck if Richar busts and Callaspo...

is the real deal. The Royals didn't give up anything more than we did for Richar and Callaspo's minor league numbers look much better than Richar's.

by SSH2005 on Dec 14, 2007 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs