Sunday Thread

by The Wizard on Dec 16, 2007 1:10 PM CST in Quotes

From BTB's article on Logan White, the Dodgers Scouting and Draft wizard:

Another thing the team can lay rep to; having some of the better recent draft classes around, and therefore top farm system ranks have been placed on them, thanks to Logan White. While he's not nearly as into statistics as DePodesta was, White does study past trends - including acknowledging that prep players have a higher percentage of becoming above average players than college players. While that concept is seemingly common sense - consider that most college players are done growing by the time they get drafted, prep athletes still have another four years before reaching that same age and body development.

Some of White's notable selections include Russell Martin, Chad Billingsley, Jonathan Broxton, James Loney, Matt Kemp, Eric Stults, Delwyn Young, and the top young lefty in the minor leagues Clayton Kershaw. That's a high rate of success without spending large sums of money to acquire "hard signs" and slipping players with concerns over the likelihood of inking a contract - in fact DePodesta's old team, the Athletics, routinely spend more on the draft than the Dodgers - also don't disregard the Dodgers' free agent promiscuity - signing numerous high profile players and therefore taking away high draft picks.

Can we get someone like that? ***** In other news,

Part III (2007) of Jim's Podsednik Paradox dissertation.
Illinois may ban aluminum bats for kids less than 13 years old. What's your take on the Wood vs. metal debate?
Hot Stove: Teams interested in Mike Cameron: Philadelphia, St. Louis, Texas and the White Sox . He won't return to the Padres. -- The Dodgers signed Japanese pitcher Hideki Kuroda to a 3/35.3 deal. -- The D'backs acquired Dan Haren from Oakland and traded Jose Valverde to Houston, and traded Alberto Callaspo to the Royals. BBTF, BTB, and AZ Snakepit on the D'backs moves. BTW, Kevin Goldstein's Oakland's Top 11 prospects list.
BA on Tim Beckham, the 2007 Youth Player of the Year.

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Comments

Pod's Was the Man

Jim's review of Pod's impact the past three seasons with the Sox is very interesting, especially in light of how maligned Scott was in the viewpoint of most on this sight. Pod's was mercilessly ripped by many but it is clear to see when reviewing the stats he was, like him or not, an impact player for the Sox.

Many of the moves this offseason are a bit puzzling. Personally, I feel not giving him another shot this coming spring is a mistake. When you look at what we are more than likely going to have in the outfield this upcoming season he wouldn't be much worse. Hey, look at the stats. Without Pod's in 2008 one can only wonder how low can we go?

Tadahito Iguchi: Another mystery is first of all why did they trade Iguchi then followed up with another one is, why didn't they sign him??? I don't want to hear about his salary being too high. That's an excuse. He isn't making that much, relatively speaking. This guy is a very solid 2nd baseman that is an asset to any team. Once again, take a look at what we are more than likely going to see at 2nd base this season and you can only wonder in amazement at what KW is thinking.

John Garland: Next is the Garland trade. Why give up a younger guy who will give you 200 - 220 decent innings a season for an older SS who is only a modest upgrade for Uribe? The Sox would have been much better off signing Eckstein and holding on to Garland.

Aaron Rowand: Why not sign him? Yes, he is expensive but what will it cost to not have him in the field? Rowand was another key member of the fluky 2005 wonder season. The chemistry of the team could only improve over what it is now. Bottom line is the team would be better with him in CF. You need to pay for players that will improve the bottom line. You could argue that KW should never have traded him in the first place. There is no question that Rowand would have been more valuable to the team than Thome has turned out to be. Thome is one dimensional.

Neal Cotts: I think we should give Neal another shot. I don't know what his current status is but if available I would invite him to camp and give him a look.

As I look forward to 2008 there isn't much to get excited about. The Royals have a real chance at escaping the cellar. The Tigers are the early team to beat in the Al Central. The next championship out of Chicago is probably more likely to come from the north siders that the south siders. The Cubs are making moves that are leading them in that direction while the Sox appear destined for less than stellar things.

by waitonhim on Dec 16, 2007 1:51 PM CST reply actions

I don't think you're right about much

and I think I have the opposite take on nearly every thing you said.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 16, 2007 1:57 PM CST up reply actions

How do you really feel though?

You're masking your true sentiments here.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 16, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions

I do love proper apostrophe use

Hey while we're at it, let's get Dinosaur Carl back, and El Duque! I'm sure Politte can be had for cheap too! We've already missed out on signing little Willie, but I'm sure we can trade three or four prospects for him. And where IS Chris Widger?

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 16, 2007 2:17 PM CST up reply actions

The "Bottom Line"

I'm not sure you know what the bottom line really is:

bottom line
-noun 1. the last line of a financial statement, used for showing net profit or loss.
2. net profit or loss.

Also, since you say '05 was "fluky", then why in world would you want Rowand back? Do you think he's going to fluke us into another one? Having Rowand back will lead to the Tigers and Indians inexplicably sucking?

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 16, 2007 2:22 PM CST up reply actions

i'm an EBITDA guy myself

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 16, 2007 2:31 PM CST up reply actions

I think depreciation is the key.

Especially when talking about the Sox.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM CST up reply actions

it's not 2005

Statistically, there isn't anything about Podsednik that is impressive since the first half of 05.

Iguchi is a solid regular, but I bet Richar will have similar production this year.

Garland trade is debatable, but Cabrera is more than a modest upgrade over Uribe. At this point, I might be a modest upgrade over Uribe.

I like Rowand too, but he isn't worth that deal. In fact, Cameron is probably the better bet and he's cheaper & for less years.

The White Sox are at a cross roads right now. They won't win the division this year and they need to look for the future and not handcuff their future by giving out huge deals.

MrROFL.com

by shaftr on Dec 16, 2007 2:27 PM CST up reply actions

i'd like to sign Cameron

give him a 1 or 2 year deal. The only unfortunate part is that he's going to miss the first 30 games (is that right?). That would mean 30 games of Owens in center though. Still, that might be the easiest way to rid ourselves of Owens after Cameron steps in.

MrROFL.com

by shaftr on Dec 16, 2007 1:52 PM CST reply actions

25 day suspension for Cameron

by coffeepac on Dec 16, 2007 5:44 PM CST up reply actions

err... games.

not days. 25 games. important distinction.

by coffeepac on Dec 16, 2007 5:45 PM CST up reply actions

alright, thanks

still worth the gamble.

MrROFL.com

by shaftr on Dec 16, 2007 6:04 PM CST up reply actions

for those pining for sox baseball

you can turn on comcast right now to watch the 8/8 extra innings game against cleveland.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 16, 2007 3:32 PM CST reply actions

Phillies interested in Mike Cameron...

"Phillies interested in Cameron"

According to this article, the Phillies, Cardinals, Rangers, and White Sox are all interested in Cameron. The Phillies could move Shane Victorino to CF and either sign Geoff Jenkins for RF or go cheap and stick Jayson Werth there. The Cardinals GM John Mozeliak projected Rick Ankiel as his probable center fielder following Saturday's trade of Jim Edmonds. The Rangers could stick with Marlon Byrd in CF. Meanwhile, we have Jerry freaking Owens. If Kenny doesn't land Mike Cameron, I just won't know what to say...

by SSH2005 on Dec 16, 2007 6:41 PM CST reply actions

Indians last offer for Pirates' Jason Bay...

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette said the Indians' last offer to the Pirates included Franklin Gutierrez, Cliff Lee, Kelly Shoppach and a minor leaguer for Jason Bay and Ronny Paulino and was turned down.
According to the report, the decision, made jointly through the entire chain of command, was that the value for Bay was not enough.

Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

by SSH2005 on Dec 16, 2007 6:43 PM CST reply actions

Guess no one wants to debate

metal vs. wood. Well, I had an actual experience today that helped define my thoughts.

Taking feeble hacks against a 65 mph pitching machine this afternoon I splintered my hand-picked wooden bat. Disgusted, I picked up a similar sized metal bat and immediately became Ichiro. I was amazed at the difference in weight and how good it felt, but was also concerned about how it would translate to my (engulfs self) fantasy week experience (had I become less of a joke because of the substance form which my wand was contructed?).

If I were to extrapolate my (admittedly horseshit) perfomance and experience I'd say it would be like Clemens' 1998 season before vs. after his (alleged) steroid use. (See the Mitchell Report for details.) The difference was quite measurable for me. Thus, knee-jerking it, I'd stay with aluminum bats (for the cost savings) until age 13-14, when the difference in skill/strength can really hurt someone.

Oh, and sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. Scotty Pods sucked hard last year and all the W/L stats won't convince me he was the difference-maker.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 16, 2007 7:16 PM CST reply actions

If it's silly to judge a pitcher by W-L

Judging a LF by W-L is that to the nth degree.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 16, 2007 9:09 PM CST up reply actions

Aluminum is pretty funny

In high school, you can still get away with blowing a guy a way with heat. Pretty much just threw it down the middle, and watched the kids whiff. That ends the minute you get into college. My first college pitch mind you still hasn't landed. The linebacker who they said was a leadoff hitter, hell he was bigger than any of our power hitters. I threw fastball 89 on the gun on the way in, probably broke the sound barrier on the way out. It ping'ed near the top of one of the light poles. Kind of a nice kick in the nuts, welcome to the next level, you ain't as good as you think kid. Thats about the time I realized that my dream for big money, and fame and fortune was not going to work out. Well that, and the pain in my arm and shoulder 2 years later sealed the deal.

Aluminum changes the way you pitch, you wind up throwing a hell of a lot more breaking pitches. They can get around on anyones fastball, and if they make any contact, its gone. That ping sound scares you as a pitcher.

by southsideirish71 on Dec 16, 2007 9:57 PM CST up reply actions

Great story

and good feedback - thanks. So, do you agree with the proposal?

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 17, 2007 8:27 AM CST up reply actions

The only justification for Aluminum is cost

From a safety perspective the kids shouldn't use the metal bats. Kids barely know how to use proper mechanics in pitching. Pretty much none of them land properly to get into a good fielding position. So its pretty much chuck and duck.

One of my biggest pet peeves with it is I believe it creates a waterfall affect of mediocrity. You have kids with metal bats that weight about as much as pin going to the local batting cage geeking up on hitting anything straight on "very fast". Like a machine, they rip everything on frozen ropes. So to counter this, Jimmy's dad then teaches his kid to throw a curveball. Of course Jimmy's dad doesnt understand the proper mechanics and the fact that Jimmy is 9 creates a monster of issues later in Jimmy's life. Its also why Jimmy is huffing a fastball that hits say 80 mph when he is 6'3. Now if he does some HGH he can really fling it up there.

I threw hard for one reason and one reason only. Lots and lots of long toss, and concentration on the fastball. We were not allowed to throw breaking pitches until 14. You also can't teach the intricacies of pitching when you face metal bats. You get solid contact on the handle of the bat for gods sakes. So going in and out, up and down is harder. I was taught to exploit the batting cage affect. And to climb the ladder on the kid. The batting cage affect is when a kid is robotic enough to recognize only flight plane on the fastball and not the spin. So you throw a 2 seamer on your first pitch, then go to a 4 seamer on the next two. This of course teaches you not to pitch, but to overcome someone else's robotic behavior. It got me destroyed my first year of college.

by southsideirish71 on Dec 17, 2007 10:11 AM CST up reply actions

good post about

the false sense of superiority with hitting with aluminum.

I swear they have to move those fences back in Williamsport for the LLWS. You see some of those kids just throw the bat at a pitch, and it sails out. Especially that walk-off the kid hit in the finals. The bat technology is changing the LL game.

Bears eat beets.

by Nordhagen on Dec 17, 2007 11:18 AM CST up reply actions

that was my dilemma

on the one hand, I don't want kids that can have a baseball future get into the bad habits of a metal bat and screw themselves, but on the other hand if you ban metal bats and they all have to use wood bats, averages, hits, runs, all will go down and will make the game less enjoyable and less kids will play it and and and ...

by The Wizard on Dec 17, 2007 2:33 PM CST up reply actions

do you know who will be pitching

to you at fantasy camp? Anyone who might be able to top 65 mph?

Bears eat beets.

by Nordhagen on Dec 17, 2007 8:49 AM CST up reply actions

Rich Dotson, Britt Burns,

and (hopefully) the corpse of Early Wynn. I think Thiggy and Donn Pall will also be trotted out, like last year.

So no flamethrowers.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 17, 2007 9:27 AM CST up reply actions

Re: metal vs. wood

This Molaro guy really seems like the kind of educated, articulate individual I want holding as a Senator.

"If you ever play golf - I don't even think they make wooden clubs anymore," Molaro said. "I think they play with weapons - plutonium. The same with tennis. The reason they use metal is that the ball goes faster and further. There's no question about it. I don't want to hear all of this scientific mumbo-jumbo. You know that if it's golf or tennis or baseball - the ball goes faster and further. Anyone who doesn't believe that is just being obstinate."

Senator Molaro, who is not swayed in his opinions by scientific research and empirical evidence pointing to the fact that wood is no safer than metal, has the audacity to call someone obstinate?

In addition,

"Have you ever priced one of those metal bats lately?" Molaro countered.

Hey, Senator Molaro, have you ever opened a book lately? Lately?

"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Dec 16, 2007 7:38 PM CST reply actions

position as Senator*

"P.S. if Cintron gets traded or released I will buy drinks for the whole board" - tubesox 6/24/07

by mjthor on Dec 16, 2007 7:38 PM CST up reply actions

Rockies, reliever Luis Vizcaino reach agreement...

Ken Rosenthal wrote:

Free-agent reliever Luis Vizcaino has reached an agreement with the Rockies, according to major-league sources.

Vizcaino, 33, will get a two-year, $7.5 million deal after rejecting a one-year contract through salary arbitration with the Yankees. The deal with Colorado will include a vesting option for a third year that could bring the total amount of the contract to $11 million. The option will vest if he racks up 68 appearances in '09.

by SSH2005 on Dec 16, 2007 8:34 PM CST reply actions

Dominican Winter League stats...

"Winter League Action"

Oneli Perez - RHP White Sox
1-0, 12 Sv, 0.55 ERA, 8 H, 17/5 K/BB in 16 1/3 IP

The White Sox tried a bunch of relievers last year, but never looked at Perez even though he ended up with a 2.10 ERA and an 89/20 K/BB ratio in 77 IP at Double-A. Maybe the team will begin to take him seriously next season.

Danny Richar - 2B White Sox
.224/.265/.254, 0 HR, 5 RBI, 17/3 K/BB, 2 SB in 67 AB

Richar hardly embarrassed himself with a .230/.289/.406 line in 187 at-bats for the White Sox, but neither did he do a lot to solidify his status as a regular. The team needs to invest in a legitimate alternative.

Andrew Sisco - LHP White Sox
1-1, 1.88 ERA, 10 H, 13/11 K/BB in 14 1/3 IP

Sisco joined Mexicali at the beginning of the month and has made three starts since. The White Sox may give him a chance to claim a rotation spot if they fail to upgrade from Gavin Floyd. However, because his command troubles would likely make it tough for him to work deep into games, his odds of contributing are better as a reliever.

Jose Castillo - INF Free Agent
.356/.381/.581, 6 HR, 30 RBI, 25/6 K/BB, 0 SB in 160 AB

If the White Sox can trade Joe Crede or Juan Uribe, my guess is that Castillo will be signed the next day. He'd make plenty of sense there as a backup at second and third.

Castillo looks like he's perfect for our team -- he swings for the fences every at bat, doesn't walk, and he's Venezuelan!!!

by SSH2005 on Dec 17, 2007 1:01 AM CST reply actions

Perez's

numbers look encouraging. So do sisco's, but can he actually throw strikes consistently? and all i can say about richar's numbers are wow.....

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 17, 2007 7:21 AM CST up reply actions

ugh

i just noticed the K/BB for sisco.... apparently he still cant throw strikes.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 17, 2007 7:36 AM CST up reply actions

Don't worry about Richar

He's just making the changes in his swing that Walker recommended. WTF is going on, those winter numbers are horrible - is he injured?

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 17, 2007 7:51 AM CST up reply actions

meanwhile

callaspo is hitting .340 in the winter league....
i really really hope richar can be a major league 2B, sox middle infield development is so horrid.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 17, 2007 7:53 AM CST up reply actions

Richar's numbers

No idea what Richar's circumstances are, but every time I worry or get excited about winter numbers, I remember Masset and his 22/2 K/BB ratio in winter ball.

Sometimes the winter #'s mean something, and a lot of times they don't.

Bears eat beets.

by Nordhagen on Dec 17, 2007 8:12 AM CST up reply actions

remember

when masset and aardsma both showed tons of promise in the first month out of the bullpen? i'm not sure, but werent the sox within a few games of first after the first month?

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 17, 2007 8:24 AM CST up reply actions

swings for the fences and doesn't walk

profundo!'s son?

by The Wizard on Dec 17, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions

Quiet! Men at Work

Richar, Walk's prize pupil:

"The last thing that you want to do when you have a kid hitting [.346] coming from Triple-A -- even if you see something that first week or two -- is go up and say we have to change this immediately," Walker said. "You have to go out and fight the fight a little bit, and if he fails, there is the opportunity there to tweak."

So let's see, he's tearing it up in AAA but you can't wait to change his swing once you get your hands on him, eh?

Richar fell into an early slump and hit just .174 through his first 16 games. However, he never lost confidence and delivered a veteran-esque poise.

"He scuffled," Walker said. "Not one time did I see him go down to the end of the bench and feel sorry for himself. I saw him feel a little mad, and saw him get a little frustrated, but I didn't see him feel sorry for himself. When you have a talented player with good makeup, you are ahead of the game. That is what we see in his kid."

The swing mechanics needed a few changes, though. Walker said Richar made "little tweaks" in his swing and approach. Richar is a no-stride hitter and that can create some advantages and disadvantages.

Yep, a few tweaks here and there and we'll fix this guy. Even though he only had a BA of .186 through his first 20 games he had a semi-respectable OBP of .323 and SLG of .418 through 19 games and a very nice 10/9 BB/K ratio. As Larry mentioned, he had some really tough luck with BABIP but hey - let's start tweaking. Since the vets have tuned Walk out, he needs somebody to work with after all.

At first, he was trying to pull the ball too much instead of letting the pitch travel deeper into the hitting zone. Richar also started having more fun at the plate.

"I was just trying to do too much and putting a lot of pressure on myself," he said. "Now I am starting to wait back on the ball and let it come to me. I am hitting the ball up the middle and to the opposite field more."

His BB/K ratio totally went in the shitter after his first twenty games - he went 6/24 the rest of the way. Even though his BA improved .44 to .230 by year end, his OBP magically dropped .34 points to end the year at .289 - thanks Walk, that's some real magic you worked with this kid. And he's carrying his progress through into winter ball with the same horrible BB/W ratio - that's what worries me the most.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 17, 2007 4:07 PM CST up reply actions

Greg Walker...

ruining White Sox players' swings since 2003.

by SSH2005 on Dec 17, 2007 4:25 PM CST up reply actions

Bottom line...We have no shot at the

playoffs or beyond. So everybody with their long ass analysis about everything shut up till next year.

by ckimcircles on Dec 17, 2007 2:28 AM CST reply actions

Wow

I see you have the holiday spirit.

www.fratdaddy.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 17, 2007 2:43 AM CST up reply actions

it's called reality regardless of

what holiday it is.

by ckimcircles on Dec 17, 2007 2:48 AM CST up reply actions

Well, OK....

But 14 days from now I'm planning on posting a long diary on how much I love posts that tell other people how to post, and how I think posts like that are responsible for the demise of the Sox. I will also demand that people stop posting posts that tell other how to post.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 17, 2007 9:08 AM CST up reply actions

Aren't you then, in effect,

telling people how not to post?

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 9:35 AM CST up reply actions

Yes!

I was going for irony, but I was just too tired this morning to pull it off well...

by hitlesswonder on Dec 17, 2007 10:04 AM CST up reply actions

You did fine

In Toonder's (and Dr. Phil's) words, don't beat yourself up.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 17, 2007 10:59 AM CST up reply actions

instead,

beat wu into next month. ;-)

"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 17, 2007 11:50 AM CST up reply actions

I can do 2 weeks of beatings

standing on my head - 3 divorces toughens the soul.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 17, 2007 11:54 AM CST up reply actions

wow - 3?

what a masochist!

I guess old dogs can't even learn old tricks....

by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 17, 2007 1:32 PM CST up reply actions

Naw, 4th time has been the charm

Now if Ozzie and Kenny can exhibit new behavior we'll all be happy.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 17, 2007 1:34 PM CST up reply actions

K, great

If you don't want to analyze baseball then why are you even on this site?

www.fratdaddy.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 17, 2007 2:51 AM CST reply actions

great!

by ckimcircles on Dec 17, 2007 2:52 AM CST up reply actions

All this "in-depth analysis" tells me...

People are still in awe over the 2005 championship year and believe that recovering those players will suddenly make the White Sox a contender in 2008. (Mind you, I disagree with that entirely)
Our scouting department sucks in just about every facet of position player development.
Richar ain't gonna cut it. The Sox need another 2B. I wasn't impressed last year, I wasn't impressed with his numbers coming over in the trade, and I'm further unimpressed with his winter ball numbers. You guys have really, really low expectations. It's amazing. If Richar puts up a .720 OPS some ppl on here will go nuts. I demand more. At -least- a .340 OBP and .440 SLG. About anything less and I will be disappointed.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 9:34 AM CST reply actions

.340/.440 is tough to find in a 2B

I think there were only about 7-8 2B's in the majors last year that exceed those numbers. Utley, Pedroia, Cano, Hudson, K. Johnson? Kent?

I don't think we necessarily need an All Star there. I think Richar can be solid. If he puts up .340/440, then I'll be dazzled, but .320/.420 would not disappoint me.

Bears eat beets.

by Nordhagen on Dec 17, 2007 10:00 AM CST up reply actions

there were probably a few more than that

shoeless wants better than league average offensive production from a 2B. seems a bit excessive but if one wants to set themselves up for disappointment, go ahead.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 17, 2007 10:09 AM CST up reply actions

2B's OPS in 2007

All had 400+ AB's...

In descending order of OPS...

Utley (.976)
Kent (.875)
Polanco
Cano
Johnson (.832)
Pedroia
Hudson
Phillips
Roberts
Weeks
Uggla (.805)
Kinsler
Hill
DeRosa
Sanchez (.785)
Ellis
Iwamura
Grudzielanek
Belliard
Iguchi (.747)
Matsui (.746)

That's (21) 2B's with an OPS higher than .740.

Now for 2B's with fewer than 400 AB's...

Easley (.824)
Kendrick (.796)
Fontenot (.738)
German (.727)
Castillo (.721)
Frandsen (.710)
Graffinino (.705)
Danny Richar (.696)
Blum (.685)
Cora
Miles
Biggio (.666)
Burke
Lopez
Durham
Giles
Carroll
Barfield (.594)

My point is... there are easily a bunch more 2B's that played better than Richar last year, and many names will surprise you.

27 2B's had a higher OPS than Richar last year in at least 200 AB's.

I don't think it's unreasonable to shoot for an OPS of .740. Last year Richar had an OPS of .696 after the all-star break. That was 28th among active 2B's with at least 100 PA's during that time span.

He's just not good.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 1:05 PM CST up reply actions

and you're just not good at math

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 17, 2007 1:09 PM CST up reply actions

Aw' he's close

The perfect is the enemy of the good, lar.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 17, 2007 1:12 PM CST up reply actions

he's not close for this

he initially demanded richar to match his career minor league totals in his first full season. ain't gonna happen, especially considering where he was playing. if he wants .740, i don't think anyone would argue that's unreasonable. he would have been there last year if his BABIP wasn't .250.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 17, 2007 1:17 PM CST up reply actions

Well, math is math, just numbers,

but his expectations are perhaps elevated and unreasonable for a rookie's performance. To expect your 2nd baseman to post a .740 isn't nuts, just expecting Richar to do so might be.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 17, 2007 1:36 PM CST up reply actions

really?

.740 should be cake for him. .780? a bit tougher - though bill james, IIRC, predicts him to do so. we really need to keep in mind the ridiculously low BABIP richar had. there's no way he puts up another .250. a hitter like him should expect to be around .300 no problem.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 17, 2007 1:39 PM CST up reply actions

I didn't demand he put up his career

minor league numbers. I just ask that he not suck and be close to league average. He wasn't.

Richar had an .870 OPS in the minors. Larry, I'm not asking him to put up an .870 in the majors. Where the heck did you get that from? All I want is for him to be around league average. I would like .740. That's not too much to ask.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 1:52 PM CST up reply actions

you're having a hell of time with numbers today

let's spell this one out for you because obviously you're not getting it. you said .340 and .440 in your original post. that does not equal .740. that equals .780. which also happens to approximate richar's minor league career total in OPS. which is not .870 but .783. it's also not too much to ask someone to get their numbers right.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 17, 2007 1:56 PM CST up reply actions

where are you getting .783 from?

These are the stats I used

Maybe you didn't factor in his AB's in Charlotte?

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 2:04 PM CST up reply actions

maybe you didn't factor in

that being his 2007, not career, total.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 17, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions

Ahhh. gotcha.

I thought that was a bit high.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 2:28 PM CST up reply actions

maybe/probably here

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=12111

another source:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/Danny-Richar.shtml

by The Wizard on Dec 17, 2007 2:09 PM CST up reply actions

Cool

'preciated. Didn't know baseball-reference did minor league stats too.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 2:30 PM CST up reply actions

yeah, cool thing

2-3 lines under a players name they have a link to his minor numbers

or on the search page they have a 'minors' link next to the name:
'Carlos Quentin 2006-2007, minors'

by The Wizard on Dec 17, 2007 2:41 PM CST up reply actions

Do you think he had

a lot of bad BABIP luck? I'm starting to worry about his line drive rates and wondering if he's simply not MLB-level talent.

But I saw him play and I thought he looked pretty capable. So?

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2007 6:07 AM CST up reply actions

It doesn't really matter anymore does it?

Rich Rodriguez! Whew, what a relief.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 18, 2007 7:03 AM CST up reply actions

I can't believe it.

Think about how different it's going to be to watch us play offense now.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2007 9:25 AM CST up reply actions

Ann Arbor = Morgantown West???

You allegedly breathe sighs of relief, but c'mon...all the guys UM actually wanted said no and you had to dip into the backwater of West Virginia yet again for a head coach.

"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 18, 2007 11:56 AM CST up reply actions

It's not our fault

Morgantown does two things well

1)hire coaches
2)burn couches

They have to be very careful with the spelling.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions

actually i think

it's a great hire, and beilein has got to be better than amaker. even though i'm a badger and theoretically hate everybody else in the big ten (including my law school), all of my hatred is not created equal and THE ohio shit university is at the top. so, on the last weekend of the regular season, i am all "hail to the victors" instead of "hail to the MFs." i hope rodriguez can cook up something for tressel.

"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

by Toonderstrook on Dec 18, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions

no one likes ohio state

and they save their very most hatred for us.

in any case, he's a great hire, as is beilein. it's going to be weird feeling good about our coach.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2007 12:43 PM CST up reply actions

I'm shocked, shocked

After the way they deliberately sandbagged the Miles thing, I thought for sure that Carr and Martin were trying to put English on the throne. I wasn't that crazy about Miles because he's already 57 (sorry Ugly). Rodriguez is only 44, so I think he'll bring a lot more energy to the job instead of laying everything off on his assistants. Thank God Schiano turned it down!

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 18, 2007 12:56 PM CST up reply actions

Hey, 57 is old to me, too, dammit

And, like youse guys, H-8 OSU (almost as much as Michigan - sorry, Pete, et.al).

Good signing by UM. Purdue sure as hell doesn't ever get profile/hot coaches, but prefers to grow them or pluck them from obsure colleges like Wyoming.

(Gee, who does THAT sound like? maybe JR/KW are Purdue alums?)

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 18, 2007 1:03 PM CST up reply actions

Et al?!

I'm colintj, biatch.

Specificity.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2007 1:24 PM CST up reply actions

Too many of you bastards

to mention one by one.

;)

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 18, 2007 3:07 PM CST up reply actions

go inside the numbers

we've got a real small sample size to work with. each of BABIP and line drive rate trended up towards the end of the season. he just dug himself into a hole early on. of course, we can play the "why are you overweighting his late season" game. i know that. from watching him play, i just don't see any reason to be concerned about him. he'll provide about league average production for a 2B. i don't know if i'm as high on him as bill james' is but i'm not worried. there are far more important things on this team to be concerned about than richar.

by larry on Dec 18, 2007 10:30 AM CST up reply actions

well that's the other thing

i personally think second basemen are rather easy to find.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions

and we found one

good for us.

if they were so easy to find i'd expect them to be performing offensively better than league average as a group. they don't.

by larry on Dec 18, 2007 11:53 AM CST up reply actions

i ought've said "there to be found"

because it's like you say. but i'm the sort of person who's convinced there should be more failed (offensively) 3rd basemen who can play second. guys like pedro feliz, joe crede and maicer izturis.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions

i'm having trouble with that one

why would a 3B be a good 2B?

by larry on Dec 18, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions

because i'm convinced that

good, rangy defensive 3B are good enough to play 2B at least capably, but probably better.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2007 12:40 PM CST up reply actions

how many are really rangy, though

if they were, they'd probably be SS, considering they all have good arms.

by larry on Dec 18, 2007 12:42 PM CST up reply actions

the difference between SS and 3B

is too large...but i think 2B is just right. i can't support it, but it's just kind of a thought that i've built having read a whole course of articles since the summer.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2007 12:50 PM CST up reply actions

Joe Crede?

Crede (when healthy) is a good third baseman because he's got quick reflexes and a strong, accurate arm.

I think he'd be a terrible second baseman. He doesn't have very much range, and his arm would be wasted.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 18, 2007 12:28 PM CST up reply actions

yeah

the reason most of those guys play 3B is because they aren't good enough to be SS.

by larry on Dec 18, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions

I didn't do any math...

except calculate the SUM of the 2B's that had an OPS higher than Richar last year in as many at bats.

That's not really difficult math, and unless I added up those players wrong, I see nothing wrong in -my- math.

Now, if you are talking about the stats I chose to represent, then go right ahead. However, I did not calculate those numbers, statheads did.

If you don't think OPS is a great indicator of his worth, then what about OPS+? His last year was 78. That's not good. That's fairly below average.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 1:48 PM CST up reply actions

adding .340 and .440 isn't difficult either

and it doesn't equal .740.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 17, 2007 1:51 PM CST up reply actions

You're right

That was a typo. I meant .340 + .400.

That = .740, what I would hope to see from him at minimum. I don't care how he gets to .740.

But .740 or .780 is a long ways away from his minor league OPS of .870 or whatever the hell it was.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 1:56 PM CST up reply actions

Besides

later on in that post I said it wasn't unreasonable to hope for a .740 OPS.

We can argue here all day about how good I am at math or how well I type and proof-read, but the bottom line is Richar needs to improve.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 1:59 PM CST up reply actions

right

but it's hard to figure out what you're arguing if you make conflicting arguments. you could have saved everyone, including yourself, a whole lot of time if you'd actually read the posts you were replying to, where we were all clearly referring to .780.

by larry on Dec 17, 2007 2:20 PM CST up reply actions

I did read them

but I didn't see anything in them about a .780 OPS so I didn't pick up on my typo until you pointed it out just a sec ago.

Just to be clear, I would like Richar to put up a .740 or higher OPS. .780 would be fantastic for a second year player at age 25. That is what I would expect.

So you think that because his BABIP was lower than league average his numbers will improve next year? What was average last year, .300? If Richar bumps up to .300, where do you think that puts his OPS?

And while I mention that, what OPS would satisfy you?

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 17, 2007 2:34 PM CST up reply actions

I'm trying to imagine you

answerig a bunch of interrogatories....

by palehose67 on Dec 17, 2007 3:08 PM CST up reply actions

You should be in patent law

with those analytical skills.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Dec 17, 2007 2:05 PM CST up reply actions

Richar

I wasn't really impressed either, especially with his glove (I thought he'd look more rangy).

But the Sox absolutely shouldn't trade for a 2B alternative. It's a spot that has had a lot of cheap FAs availabe lately. If Richar plays poorly, they can try to pick up one for 2009. And in house they'll have Jason Whateverhisnameis at AAA who might be able to hit a little, plus Getz I guess. Give those guys 2008, with Richar getting A LOT of at-bats before considering switching to the others. Try to wring some value out of the Cunningham trade.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 17, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions

Richar deserves a shot.

I don't know if he can handle it at the big league level, but we have to give him a shot (for cost reasons if nothing else). I know fans often give up on young talent too quickly, often times saying that they don't see the raw skills, bat speed is too slow, etc. Just think about how people gave up on Crede as late as the first half of 2005. Note, of course, that this general reaction does not necessarily apply to BA (at least on SSS). But then again, I tend to think I've seen enough of BA (and certainly heard enough from him).

by palehose67 on Dec 17, 2007 10:59 AM CST up reply actions

boring

things have been kind of boring ever since KW decided he wasnt going to speak about any moves or trades. anyone hear anything about crede lately?

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 17, 2007 10:40 AM CST reply actions

All I know is that...

we have two 3B (Fields and Uribe).
we have two SS (Cabrera and Uribe).
we have three bad options for CF (Owens, Anderson, and Sweeney).

by SSH2005 on Dec 17, 2007 11:43 AM CST up reply actions

I love this offseason. ; (

by SSH2005 on Dec 17, 2007 11:43 AM CST up reply actions

Oops -- should have been Fields and Crede.

by SSH2005 on Dec 17, 2007 12:13 PM CST up reply actions

Eh, whatever

I had a little chuckle as I recalled Cintron trying to play third and bouncing his throws into first because it was too far for his bum arm.

Ah, 2007...what a year.

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 17, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions

We could temporarily adopt another team....

Until the Sox start making moves or generating some rumors. We could pick a team that is currently rumored to be making some moves and analyze those transactions. Maybe the Mets? They should be exciting -- jobs are on the line and they need to get more pitching somehow. Plus we would have the Milledge trade to rehash: it's like the Chris Young trade but worse!

Or we can just wait around in the eerie silence and see if KW really will trade for Crisp or Pierre (shudder).

by hitlesswonder on Dec 17, 2007 12:12 PM CST up reply actions

I am kind of jealous

of what oakland is doing. I'd love to see a bunch of young players like that in my starting lineup next year. granted they might not be that good yet, but definitely exciting to watch those kids grow.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Dec 17, 2007 12:17 PM CST up reply actions

Good point

Watching the influx of young talent is actually the reason I've taken to the A's in my time out here in the bay area, or "gay" area as WU likes to call it.

It tends to be a bummer when the good players leave, but as a credit to management's ability to market to the fan base, there are rarely too many objections raised.

Unfortunately, I don't think KW works in such an understanding environment.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Dec 17, 2007 1:45 PM CST up reply actions

If only I could.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Dec 17, 2007 1:45 PM CST up reply actions

I Am Legend

Wow, did I feel foolish.

Went to the theater on Friday thinking I was going to see a movie on the life of Aaron Rowand, only to find out it was a movie with Will Smith running around playing Omega Man.

His character was definitely a grinder, however.

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 17, 2007 12:23 PM CST reply actions

That's the post

of the day.

by palehose67 on Dec 17, 2007 1:52 PM CST up reply actions

Nice Omega Man/Chuck Heston

reference. Will Smith should be so beloved. Chuck's my favorite bad actor of all time - from The Ten Commandments to Soylent Green (one of the funniest "SNL" skits was when Phil Hartman was acting as Heston in Soylent Green - "Soylent Green is PEOPLE!!! PEOPLE!!!!" had me ROFL for 15 minutes) - to Planet of the Apes, Chuck was Bill Shatner with height.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 17, 2007 2:01 PM CST up reply actions

Soylent Green?

most of the kids here weren't born when that was released!

Not to disagree with you, wu,but I disagree with you - Charlton Heston lacked (or lacks - is he still alive?) Shatner's sense of fun. I never liked Shatner until he did Boston Legal, but he's a hoot on that show.

And speaking of wu, are you related to the Chinese guy on "Deadwood"? - he deals opium and disposes of bodies by feeding them to his pigs. Where are your ex wives, anyway?

by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 17, 2007 2:37 PM CST up reply actions

I was thinking of the Star Trek Shatner

who was hot shit and knew it - like Heston. It was only later, when he started blimping out and appearing on Howard Stern, that he became a hoot, IMO. Heston is still alive, as I recall, though he has serious Alzheimer's.

Thank you for the career suggestion - opium is making a comeback in Afghanistan. And not Asian -Italian/German. 2/3 of the Axis Empire. Don't eff with us (losers).

And 2/3 of the exes are back in Illinois - only one in FL. All are alive (dammit).

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 17, 2007 5:04 PM CST up reply actions