Fire him, Kenny

Hmmm...

Walker or Ozzie? ;-)

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 2, 2007 5:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't care

I want blood for the sorry ass product they're putting on the field.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on May 2, 2007 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doubt the Chairman would disagree

he's paying nine figures to field said product.

by The Past Tense of Grinder is Grounder on May 2, 2007 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's otherwise occupied.

by ballyb on May 2, 2007 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I remember seeing

Kenny tell reporters right after spring training that when this club is no longer in position to contend for another championship, he'd be the first to tell everyone.

We're waiting.

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 2, 2007 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pathetic....

Freaking pathetic...

by thekever on May 3, 2007 7:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You read my mind, Toonder

But even Ozzie couldn't be this bad without the complete lack of situational hitting. (Like leading off an inning, RISP, etc.)

So for you guys who said our schedule was so tough - what say you now that we've lost 2-3 to LA and 2 to sorry Seattle? And looked weak in doing it?

PS The pen's no bargain, either. Sunday and Monday they gave up 2 in the last at bat to put the game out of reach (though 1 run is out of reach right now).

by winningugly on May 2, 2007 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And if I have to listen to another GD joke

coming from Ozzie about crying when filling out his lineup card or poisoning an opposing pitcher...

Oz, if I want humor, I'll listen to Jim Gaffigan. The only thing funny right now is the piss poor performance you're getting from your mediocre lineup. So hardee-freakin' har, no one's laughing at this shit anymore.

by southsider80 on May 2, 2007 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is downright pathetic.

I'm not going to give my money to this garbage. I'm not going to another game at USCF until I see some fucking improvement. Kenny may be the GM, and Jerry Reinsdorf may be the owner, but when you get down to it, it's our money he's spending. If they're going to waste it, I'm not going to cough it up.

Now, if this were some sort of shocking surprise, that would be one thing. If Kenny had made smart moves and if Ozzie were doing the best anyone could do with this team--but if bad breaks and injuries and the like made us sub-par--then I would still give this team my full support.

But this is ludicrous. This team is the predictable result of boneheaded management, awful coaching and plate strategy, stupid roster decisions, and a general lack of direction.

I still think this team can contend this year. But they certainly can't the way they're going about things.

While I love the Sox, they're gonna have to show they love us back. Let's fix this team, Kenny.

by Dongfang Hong on May 2, 2007 5:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Couldn't have said it better

This horse may be dead, but I'm going to flog it a little anyway. The BA situation is indicative of the entire 25 games this season. Complete lack of planning, communication, and player usage. If Ozzie was never going to use BA, why the hell didn't he and KW come with an alternative to a 4th outfielder? Because gents, Terrero is no 4th OF. It be stretch to dub Mackowial a 4th outfielder. And to sell the fans on Podsednik to produce and be healthy is a slap in the jaw.

This is mangement breakdown, and these arrogant jackasses better get on the same page, or it's going to be cricket nights at the Cell once again. We're not Cub fans, we don't just show up no matter what. KW needs to fix the roster, because this one stinks. Ozzie needs to fix the strategy, because this longball plan is garbage. And Walker needs to do a little more than play Freud and chalk up the mediocre hitting to weather and mental cramps.

Time for the Sox brass and management to roll up their sleeves, man the fuck up and fix these Sox. Otherwise, get prepared for those all too familiar sounds of crickets chirping at 7:12 at USCF. Attendence: 14,000. Maybe less. I've seen it before and nothing makes me believe I won't see it again.

by southsider80 on May 2, 2007 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fire him Kenny

What a bunch of front runners...sound like Flub or Yankee fans. Yes this team is pathetic right now and yes in this division they have to turn it around pretty quick. But this is the same management team that brought a TITLE to this organization after 88 years! That must count for something. And BTW injuries to Thome and Pods are definitely contributing to the sub par performance. There are some positives, the rotation is pretty damn good right now and if it holds up, a winning streak is on the horizon WHEN the bats heat up.

by Richie15 on May 2, 2007 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So where's your disagreement with my post?

My point was that this team can contend, but Ozzie and Kenny need to pull their heads out of their asses and fire things up.

Oh, by the way: if Cubs fans reacted like we did, they wouldn't be in the yearly-loser position they're in. Cubs fans give up and say, "well, they're our guys, and we gotta support them no matter what...we'll contend, just wait...things'll turn around...once guys get off the DL...next year things'll be better..."

Sox fans don't stand for that bullshit, and we don't stand for a bullshit team on the field. We don't stand for idiotic moves by management. We expect a good product for our money. And we ain't getting it right now.

Pods and Thome are injured? Well, yeah. Pods gets injured every year. Thome's old and battered, and slow power sluggers don't often age gracefully. We all forsaw Pods; that's why we wanted a real outfielder to back him up. And we knew injuries could strike any of our sluggers; that's why we wanted a real bench. These are not horrific, unpredictable events, any more than a Cubs pitcher going to the DL is horrific and unpredictable.

Finally, of course this team will be great when the bats heat up. We all agree on that. The position of the The Cheat's original post was that in order for this to happen, Walker must be fired and replaced with a hitting coach who knows what he's doing.

by Dongfang Hong on May 3, 2007 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Disagreement

I think the hitting coach is an overrated function. These guys have been around long enough to figure out what their issues are, so I guess I don't really disagree. All that will happen if Walker is fired is that it will piss the hitters off big time, because to my knowledge, they are all supportive. If you knew a lot about Greg Walker you would know why. I find it hard to believe that his instruction is what is causing most if not all of these hitters to go up to plate looking for the jack every time.

by Richie15 on May 3, 2007 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

First - I dig the name

Richie - Allen? One of my favorites of all time. (He was "Dick" once he got here.)

Agree with the "overrated" comment, and if it's a political issue if Walk goes, so be it - maybe the guys need to get pissed.

As for swinging for the fences, these are not pirhanas - they have ALWAYS swung for the fences - we just have no table setters to get on in front of them.

Lastly, chicks dig the long ball. There's your motivation! As Hef once said, everything we do is to get laid.

by winningugly on May 4, 2007 7:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

grinderball?

i want a firesale.

by Jbasic89 on May 2, 2007 6:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

get cashman on the damn phone

and give them all the pitching they want for arod

by Jbasic89 on May 2, 2007 6:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree...

It's time to pull the plug now. Don't wait in vain hope of competing in the Central. Get ready to trade Dye, Crede, Buehrle, Garland, Iguchi, and Jenks or MacDougal. A firesale would be more entertaining than watching this team play.

by hitlesswonder on May 2, 2007 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can't agree with a firesale...

but I think this team needs a spark, a kick in the ass.

I seem to keep beating a dead horse with this guy, but I'm really intrigued by Baldelli. In his pre-prime years he looks to be settling into a 120-125 OPS+ player. With his speed and defense, he's going to be a very good player for the foreseeable future.

Unfortunately, I know it isn't that easy. I'd hate to see the Sox give up any of their Birmingham trio, but I also understand that a package built around Lance Broadway isn't going to get it done.

My only suggestion would be to wait till June. Sell some GM on Podsednik's health and try to get a mediocre major league reliever for him. Add Kyle McCollough to the package (once that one-year rule passes) and try to get something done.

If the Sox happen to tank over the next month-and-a-half, I still think the Sox should make a move for Baldelli -- I'd just use Jermaine Dye to get him. If it came down to it, I think the Sox would be able to get a pretty good starting pitching prospect for Dye -- I'd then send that prospect along with some of our non-best prospects for Rocco.

by CWSKeith on May 2, 2007 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm just perturbed

A firesale probably is an over-reaction at this point. But the key problem is that the Sox lack young players that have proven they can play in the bigs. The Sox do have players that could fetch a decent return. It would be a shame to waste an opportunity to acquire needed young talent instead of opting for a likely futile attempt to reach the playoffs. Not that I like the idea of cashing in a year. The Sox can't go into next season with an all-minor-league outfield like Fields-Anderson(or Erstad)-Sweeney.

by hitlesswonder on May 2, 2007 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That wouldn't help.

What's the point of trading our rotation for one position player?

If we have a firesale, I want a well-rounded pack of prospects.

by Dongfang Hong on May 2, 2007 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you know what wont help

scoring 2 runs a game for the rest of the year

by Jbasic89 on May 2, 2007 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Relax

It's way too early to panic. Wait until Memorial day. And besides, this was a fourth place team going in.

Chip Ramsey

by chipramsey on May 2, 2007 7:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

too early to panick?

we cant score a run that isnt a solo homer...

by Jbasic89 on May 2, 2007 7:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, a bit early,

though panic is certainly in the forecast. With the pitching as good as it is, this is a team that can compete. If Kenny can wrangle a stud OFer for somewhere (from the DRays in exchange for some of our surplus arms) and that bats come around--which they very well should, the Sox can be in the mix. The Astros were 15-30 the year they went to the series, so this isn't an impossible turnaround. We need an outfielder, we need to get healthy, we need the bats to come around. All these things can happen. I'm not say they will happen, just that they can.

But if the plan is to stay course, and the bats remain colder than a penquin's ass, then sadly, pathetically--a year removed from the WS--fire sale it is. We'll be the Marlins.

by southsider80 on May 2, 2007 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Problem is

there are THREE really good teams to climb past. These ARE good teams - and they have very good players in the minors to help if they struggle.

by ballyb on May 2, 2007 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, not EXACTLY the Marlins,

because we're not changing ownership and looking to slash and burn, but I get your drift. We really are a banger away from competing (assuming Thome comes back healthy), and a little momentum/confidence from new blood would not hurt.

I mean, they're trying, right? They haven't rolled over - it just seems like they have. We do need some OF/DH action soon just to keep our pitchers feeling appreciated.

No time to bail yet - but the approach needs to change, and I do think we need to fill a hole with someone from the outside to move forward positively.

by winningugly on May 2, 2007 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually...

can we be the Marlins?

by southsider80 on May 2, 2007 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmm lets see

Iguchi .239
Aj .216
Dye .214
Konerko .202
Crede .215

How many predicted that? How many wanna bet me the numbers look the same in 2 months?

I get the disappointment. What I dont get is this sentiment (again) that 1 month in with a quality rotation and bullpen that we are somehow "out" of it and should firesale the team. Why? Cuz the offense has hit way below avg?

Oh your pissed off and aint going to the cell. The freaking team won 189 games over 2 years and has a 100 million dollar payroll.

Yes the Sox have done some maddening things lately. Yes Ozzie is full of himself and Kenny should take control. Yes our bench sucks. But this is ridiculous and I dont just mean our batting averages.

by Tdogg on May 2, 2007 7:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree, but they need some shaking up, and fast.

They play the:

Angels in LA - 3 times this weekend
Twins in Minn. - 7 times in the next 3+ weeks
Yankees here - 3 times in the next 2 weeks
A's here - 3 times in the next 2 weeks
Cubs here - 3 times in the next 2 weeks

19 games against very good teams (yes the Cubs will be ready for this series). If we putz around like we have the last little while, WE WILL HAVE BIG PROBLEMS. And we WILL be talking about 2008.

Some chairs need to be thrown, at a minimum!

by ballyb on May 2, 2007 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

couldnt't have said it much better

when i see people doing idiotic things everyday, i wonder. but then i look on this or similar site and what goes through people's minds and i don't wonder anymore.

by larry on May 2, 2007 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can you explain that, Larry?

by southsider80 on May 2, 2007 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

which part needs explaining

i read the same knee jerk crap on here all the time. the logic really follows.

by larry on May 2, 2007 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't knee jerk respnses part of fandon?

Or is this the Symposium? I'm so confused...

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 5:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

part of fandom?

maybe where you come from. i call it part of idiocy. in case you missed it, this isn't mike north's or jay mariotti's site.

by larry on May 3, 2007 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

I agree 100% Larry. Step back from the edge a bit folks. I am not happy with the way the team is playing right now, but I am not ready to throw in the towel in the first week of May. I do agree that a few moves will probably need to be made to jump start this thing. Thome's situation is the most worrisome of them all, but in reality I'm actually surprised we got what we did out of him last year. His age and injury situation the last several years are troubling and might be signaling the end if he does not come off this latest DL stint clearly healed. For what its worth, it just seems this team's chemistry has never been the same since the Thome/Rowand deal.

teejay

by teejay on May 3, 2007 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, Larry,

I'm glad you can come on a website and deem what's idiocy and what's not. That's great. Not superior at all. Egalitarian, in fact.

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And this is the cue

for you to get in the last word. It's all yours.

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

this is a site for exchanging opinions

i have mine. everyone else can certainly have theirs. one of the reasons i - and i know others - have preferred this site to others is that the blog posts and the discourse on here tends to be on a more informed and nuanced level than that of other sites (and, frankly, sports talk on whatever medium). it's sad to see posters stray from that.

by larry on May 3, 2007 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the yankees are shaking things up

firing their strength and conditioning coach.

link

by larry on May 2, 2007 7:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Ergo, the Walkman needs to go

by winningugly on May 2, 2007 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I suggest

that the Grind-O-Meter should come down and a 0 non-HR-run-O-meter should go up.

by ballyb on May 2, 2007 7:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Quit talking about the Grind-O-Meter..

It is getting old and is not funny anymore, just like the damn Sox.

by ckimcircles on May 2, 2007 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you mean it's not working,

and thus not ironic or is defeating the purpose of leaving it up there, then I agree with you. BB has a good idea.

Not that I'd ever speak for larry (who could?) but if I can interpolate I think there's WAY too much anger/frustration when we talk about White Flagging 2 months early. We were a national punch line for 2-3 years after those trades, even though it ended up working out OK. Remember how slow Oakland started last year? Or Houston in '05? Teams CAN start slow and finish strong enough to win.

The strum and drang is getting a little much. First, Buehrle was pilloried over the winter, and he's now our best pitcher. Then God and everyone (myself included) was certain Pods was going to suck mightily. He was only our best hitter until he went down (lucky or not, it is what it is). Concurrently the Erstad signing was absolutely stomped without any "wait and see", and believe it or not he's now our best non-injured hitter (and probably "spirit award" guy) on the roster.

I'm having no fun losing to mopes and scoring like the Blackhawks every night, but for Christ's sakes, teams go through this. We went through it in August, '05 and still won the WS. I agre we need some help but what the hell kind of fans are we? This isn't a fantasy team - well, not my fantasy - and things don't just drop out of the sky. I don't like that we could've gotten Langerhaus or maybe can get another slumping guy who might benefit from a change of scenery. I would like a strategic move or two to stay competitive in the near term 'til the old guys get rolling again and/or the new guys figure it out.

The vitriol is disturbing - "I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna" stuff is immature. Are you in or are you out? WTF? What if we had to wait another 88 years for a championship? We'd have a bunch of south side guys hanging from piano wire every year. A little perspective is warranted. We are dangerously close to be as asinine as Yankee fans (and the "A-Rod to the rescue" is hysterically similar to NY'ers searing hot/icy cold emotional swings regarding him).

by winningugly on May 2, 2007 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you said it better than TDogg

by larry on May 2, 2007 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

My point exactly.

by Tdogg on May 2, 2007 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who's talking about white flagging?

I'm just talking about the overused and annoying term "grind-o-meter." What is your problem? Why are you taking all of your manchild anger out on me? Why do you care if we were the "national punch line 2-3 years ago?" Do you work for the White Sox organization? It seems as if you are the one getting real emotional over the losses. Calm down man. Don't overanalyze on a simple statement because you think you know everything.

by ckimcircles on May 2, 2007 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

context, friend

it may not be all that clear but, after the first sentence, he wasn't addressing you any longer.

by larry on May 2, 2007 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you know what the grind-o-meter is?

by ballyb on May 2, 2007 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can you please explain

this new phenomenom that we love talking about so much? I would love to know because it is so popular this year?

by ckimcircles on May 2, 2007 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This site's main page

had a stat Grind-O-Meter when Erstad was in the depths of his non extra base hit slump (it's still shown on the main page). As soon as it went up, he got 2 doubles in a game. It spurred him on. I suggested switching to a non-HR-run-O-meter which might have a similar effect.

by ballyb on May 2, 2007 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

sounds great..

I'll keep that in mind

by ckimcircles on May 2, 2007 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My life revolves around the grind-o-meter.

by ckimcircles on May 2, 2007 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or the '83 White Sox...

Which hung around (mostly below) .500 for the 1st half of the season, then lapped the field in the second. Yep, too early for the rending of clothes.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 3, 2007 7:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well said, winningugly

We all just need a little perspective at times. Early May, and we still have the nucleus of the team that won things for us in '05. Once again, not to say we do not need some changes to shake things up a bit, but this is not over yet. There are far too many intangibles that play into a season as it unfolds for this to be over. As you said, this is not a fantasy team, and to be hovering around .500 with the way we have been hitting is miraculous. It needs to change, of course, but I think with a veteran ballclub with the caliber of hitters we have, it will. I agree that Walker is probably the easiest and first logical move to be made for a shakeup. The player moves, though, that take place need to be well thought out so that we do not unnecessarily harm the near future of the club by getting rid of decent prospects. Tricky situation to balance out with an aging/veteran club, but I think Williams will get it done.

teejay

by teejay on May 3, 2007 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gotta love Bobby Cox....

going against Freddy Garcia tonight and thus gives Willie Harris a start in LF...easy swipes Willie (if can get on).

by stanchar on May 2, 2007 7:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

stanchar

You called it. Harris drives in the winning running off Freddy in the bottom of the 6th and goes 2-3 with an RBI.

by RME JICO on May 3, 2007 6:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The big picture tide is turning.

Blown save by Joe Nathan 3 - 3 w/ Tampa Bay in the 10th.

by ballyb on May 2, 2007 9:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

mark gonzales strikes again

John Danks lost his fourth consecutive decision Wednesday, but manager Ozzie Guillen hasn't lost confidence in his rookie left-hander.

link

no mention, of course, of how the sox have scored a total of four runs in his starts. that couldn't have anything to do with him not winning games, could it.

by larry on May 2, 2007 9:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That's some dynamite reporting

Covering from ALL angles--always a mark of a brave and serious journalist.

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cheat

The WSCR boys are quoting your stat - 0 non-HR runs in the last 37 innings.

by ballyb on May 2, 2007 10:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Such Fickle Fans

When I read these temper tantrums I can only smile. Aren't you the same guys that were beating Podsednik and Erstad into the ground mercilessly during ST and the beginning of the season? I can only wonder about the observational and prioritizing skills being demonstrated here. Now these same people are giving advice to KW on how to run the team in a crisis. Heaven help us. I can only hope KW has more sense than to listen to such nonsense.

It was so obvious to see that Pods and Erstad were the least of this team's problems but the prognosticators vehemetly disagreed. You guys were obnoxious toward them. What are you guys smoking? You should be thanking the good Lord for Pods and Erstad. They are looking better every day.

For all the gloom and doom and as poorly as this team has played, they are only 4.5 games back. A testament as to how poorly this whole division is playing. On the other hand, there is an excellent possibility that the current standings may hold throughout the season, with a fourth place finish a very real possibility.

The rash rush for Walker's head is immature. Firing Walker accomplishes zilch. The team is in a slump, period. They will come out of it, just a matter of when and will it be too late? Fire Ozzie? I would have no problem with that, except that I wouldn't fire him for the offensive woes, but rather his inability to manage a major league pitching staff.

Hey, we could always bring Aaron Rowand back!

by waitonhim on May 2, 2007 11:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh please

"It was so obvious to see that Pods and Erstad were the least of this team's problems but the prognosticators vehemetly disagreed."

So instead of the two sub .700 OPS outfielders it would have made more sense to worry about Dye and Konerko, each with an OPS of over .900 last season? I'd ask what were the problems the Sox had which were so much more obvious than Pods & Erstad but I probably don't want to know.

Here's why Pods and Erstad still aren't looking better: Pods isn't doing anything but being hurt right now and Erstad still has a sub.700 OPS (a .316 OBP from a top of the order hitter is nothing to be excited about).

Moreover, if the Pods/Erstad positions are upgraded with stronger & healthier offensive players, it would have helped carry the Sox through Dye/Konerko/Crede/AJ all not hitting. As it is, carrying three weak bats at LF/CF/SS has left the Sox no margin for error.

If Erstad stays hot and gets his OBP over .340 for the season, I'll recant and admit he was good value signing.

by hitlesswonder on May 2, 2007 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ONLY 4.5 games back

Thank God we play in such a poor division. I'm sure these will be easy to make up

Wait, what?

And what's exactly to say if the offense comes around that the pitching will remain solid?

While, it's possible the pitching continues throwing quality starts when positional players start hitting near career averages, I'm concerned of when this will happen. Mid June may be too late.

by TheKMan1 on May 2, 2007 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, now that is a concentrated salvo of wrong.

First, the primary concerns about Pods and Erstad were, respectively, that Pods' groin would keep him from contributing effectively and that Erstad would be mediocre at best. As it turned out, Pods' groin is keeping him doing anything but watching, and Erstad is, well, mediocre at best. We worried he would be sub-.700 with a low OBP. Right on both counts. He only looks good because the rest of our lineup has turned into such turds. (NB: Citing the entire lineup sucking top-to-bottom is not a very good defense for either Walker, Ozzie, or KW.)

Second, how on Earth is Pods looking better every day? Unless you're his wife, you're really not seeing him perform in any capacity...well, ever. Dude's on the DL. That's the list where players go where they're injured, and unable to play baseball.

Third, "how poorly this whole division has played?" Have you actually followed baseball at all? I mean, your Pods comments imply that you haven't actually watched a Sox game in the last few weeks, but this is just nuts. There is exactly one other sub-500 team in this division: the Royals. The Indians have the best record in the League, the Tigers are behind only the Tribe and Red Sox. The Twins would be second place in any other division, and that's even with Sidney Ponson and Carlos Silva making 2/5 of their starts. This is a good division, with the exception, as always, of the KC Royals.

Fourthly, this team has systematic hitting issues. When every single batter is in a slump, every single batter can't hit LHP, and every single batter is making an inordinate amount of flyouts, popouts, and strikeouts on uppercut swings (with a few solo jacks mixed in), then there is a problem with the team's hitting strategy. When all your hitting coach can offer is "well, I dunno, it must just be in their heads," then he should probably be replaced.

Fifthly, Ozzie is awesome at managing a pitching staff, his love of playing lefty-righty matchups notwithstanding. Even the sabermetric community--which finds very little to love in Mr. Guillen--praises his handling of Sox pitchers. I disagree with many of his decisions, but by and large he does well.

And Jesus, man, that's just for starters. I don't think I've seen post with a higher yield of smug inaccuracy on this site yet.

by Dongfang Hong on May 3, 2007 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You haven't read his earlier posts.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 3, 2007 7:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the frustration

being felt by many of us is due to the perplexing line-ups (e.g. Joe Crede at DH), in-game strategy (e.g. station-to-station base running), poor execution (someone please get a bunt down) and personnel handling (the whole Brian Anderson soap opera). It's not so much "our guys" that are disappointing us, it's the organization's handling of the entire situation.

So, the master plan was to jack BA around for the first month of the season, when all along Erstud was going to be the starting CF? If BA wasn't going to be developed, were there other options during the winter to acquire real outfield/offensive talent? Hate to say it, but I believe Saint Aaron is currently playing out his ass (for now, anyway).

Since the 2005 triumph, we have come to trust Ozzie's and KW's judgement. However, their recent actions have been a bit, like I said...perplexing. Outright goofy in some cases.

God bless Pods for his 100% effort when healthy, but didn't anyone in the organization recognize he was off his game and likely to experience recurring injuries? Didn't we all have those nagging thoughts when we heard he was coming back? No Sox trainer took KW aside and warned him?

I'm no where near the ledge...not on May 2 for crying out loud. But it is definitely time to right the ship...especially a ship sailing in that division.

It seems a near impossibility for ALL of those talented bats to slumber collectively much longer. When Thome gets back, I think it will help the 2-7 hitters get back some...dare I say...swagger. The pitching is better than expected - they just need a little run production behind them.

And hell, if it all goes in the shitter, my tickets are already paid for, so I'll be sipping suds at The Cell anyway (maybe not as often). No matter how it all shakes out, I just hope they can man up enough to beat the living crap out of the Cubs!

Viva Johnny Dickshot!

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on May 2, 2007 11:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

and...

God bless us, every one.

by Hazymania on May 3, 2007 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm just upset

that I see Billy Beane trying to fix his outfield situation with 2 moves in 4 days, then telling the media he's exploring other trade options to fill his now vacant DH spot, while Kenny and the White Sox don't seem to be doing anything about their current situation.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on May 3, 2007 12:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

KW - "We like the guys we got."

by ballyb on May 3, 2007 6:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's my point -

we don't seem to be scouring the rosters of other teams and being creative. Hell, we in Chicago love doing it on the cheap (look at the Bears' free agent signings this past week after the draft) and Beane seems to be doing a wonderful job beefing up his roster by taking small financial risks while we sit and wait for things to change. We've had a backup C problem for eons (Toby Hall was a decent fill but that may not've lasted long). Holes in the OF have been obvious, the speed of the middle of our line-up has caused the station-to-station baseball that demands HR's in order to score, and Ozzie's as mystefying as ever in how he manages his lineup.

So trashing the whole team isn't the solution but tinkering is obviously necessary (at least to me). What's wrong with demanding some action to correct current holes that will NOT get filled when everyone returns from the DL or Slumpville?

Fernando Vina was commenting last night on the Spanks' firing of the strength coach. To paraphrase Kruk and him, if the guy has lost the ear of his clients, it's time to go. Has Walker lost the ear of the hitters? If not, what the hell are they listening to? I think we should have a "Jason Robards as Al Capone" moment were Walker grabs a bat at a nice Sox dinner and starts bashing the most expendable Sox hitter (my vote is Cintron now that BA is gone) to send a message.

The Chicago way!

by winningugly on May 3, 2007 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes...

There is no need to go after the entire team. The main problem that I think is going on here, that everyone's dancing around is the focus this slump is distracting from real problems. The bats will come around. We all (should) know this. But the issue is that Sox brass can point to this slump and say 'hey, just a slump. We'll snap out of it.' Okay, then what? Because even with Pods and Thome and even Hall, we all know this is a flawed team.

The Sox need a shot in the arm, and the only way this will happen seems to be via trade. I don't see any of our minor leaguers really doing much to excite anyone, so the answer isn't coming from there (unless it's via trade).

The irritating thing is the way this is playing out and the how the problems we all forsaw and KW and Guillen chose to ignore are coming around to kill us. Pod's health, a weak bench and paltry OF.

At the beginning of the year, I saw the Sox as a 3rd place team and thought I was ok with that. I'm not. I had the Twins in 4th. But look where they are now, again!! They lose Radke and Liariano, replace them with Ortiz and Sidney 'have another' Ponson and are doing this well? Folks, this is what they call management. We have good management, but they are also very arrogant. I wonder how far the Sox will slide before KW says 'oops...we screwed up. We need a quality outfielder. We need a sparkplug.' Hopefully not too long.

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have stepped off the ledge...

...Sox losing streak plus me preparing for trial = ready to jump. Crisis averted, if ever so temporarily.

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 3, 2007 7:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Is your blogging time

considered "billable hours" for your clients? :)

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on May 3, 2007 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No,

but in a 7am-10pm day, I need a little bit of down time.

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 3, 2007 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Any chance

of getting Ozzie and KW on the stand to account for their actions?

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on May 3, 2007 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are getting very serious, Toonder

All work and no play makes Toonder a dull Viking or Bounty Hunter.

;)

by winningugly on May 3, 2007 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought he was getting a little fiesty with me

but that's part of being a grinder.

My brother-in-law/Sox mentor is also an attorney...he tends to get fiesty as well.

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on May 3, 2007 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course it is.

And time spent at the Cell is labeled "court".

We don't have stupid lawyers on this site...

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 3, 2007 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

GRINDER BASH ON MAY 5th 2007 AT US CELLULAR

They are almost giving away tickets (all you can eat buffet and free parking included). Few bids.

The masses do not like being bullshitted.

I feel like going down and picketing, with the sandwich board below.

WE WANT SOME GRINDING!
WE WANT SOME SINGLES AND DOUBLES!
NO MORE UPPERCUT SWINGS!
GRINDING IS MORE DEPENDABLE!
GRIND, GRIND, GRIND!

by ballyb on May 3, 2007 9:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

hey are almost giving away tickets ON EBAY.

few bids ON EBAY.

by ballyb on May 3, 2007 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nothing's more grindy than the solo HR, right?

I don't see what your problem is.

by Dongfang Hong on May 3, 2007 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Backing off the ledge material.

Strength of schedule has been VERY LOPSIDED.

First record for each team is vs. KC, Sea., Bal, TB.
Next is all others.

Indians (4 - 2), (12 - 6)
Tigers (9 - 3), (7 - 8)
Twins (11 - 6), (4 - 6)
White Sox (2 - 2), (10, 11)

The Twins have played weak teams 17 times vs. 4 for the Sox.

Better things are ahead! But we need some real grinding, not just in the promotional literature!

by ballyb on May 3, 2007 10:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Good news. Of course bad news

Cleveland "only" has 6 games against those teams. If their bullpen holds up everyone is fighting for second.

by Tdogg on May 3, 2007 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

On a lighter note: Worst. Headline. Ever.

Royals To Get A Taste Of Angels' Colon

http://www.wsoctv.com/mlb/13222064/detail.html

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 3, 2007 11:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Ah, that made my day.

by chrome on May 3, 2007 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Juicy.

Now that Bart's back we gotta have a headline contest for when Wang or Johnson face Colon.

by winningugly on May 3, 2007 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey Wang!

These guys seem strict! Don't let 'em know you're Jewish!

Guess the movie?

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You got me - I am stumped

by winningugly on May 3, 2007 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Caddyshack!

Dangerfield says it to one of his pals in the proshop.

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am weak

I remember taking my sister to see it in 1980 in a theater in India-noplace. Must've been 4 other people in the place. Sure gained some cult status, hasn't it?

by winningugly on May 3, 2007 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not really weak...

It's an obscure quote. I don't why I think of it everytime the Yankees' Wang is brought up.

4 other people in the city, or at the theater?

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

At the movie -

Indy was dead, but not THAT dead.

by winningugly on May 3, 2007 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh...

In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 3, 2007 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha!

Good one, Burb.

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I also like...

when Dangerfield introduces Wang to Judge Schmales -

"And this here is my friend Wang.
(turning to Wang) No offense"

GO SOX!

by rhythm on May 3, 2007 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha!

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"You must have

been something before electricity!"

by BustedFlush on May 3, 2007 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

On a darker note: LAAAAA at home:

Avg: .310 OBP: .367 SLG: .454 OPS: .821

ERA: 3.05 WHIP: 1.28 BAA: .251

Rev Halo's already licking himself.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 3, 2007 11:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

no need for a fire sale...

Most likely the Sox aren't going to make any moves. They will wait for Thome, Pods and Hall to come back and for Dye, Konerko and Crede to hit.

More than likely the offense will be fine in a month or so. And, hopefully, the pitching staff will have kept the Sox in the race until then.

If not, then I think the Sox should look to trade Crede, Dye and Buehrle in July. They don't need to trade anyone else. Iguchi is worth holding onto for the money he'll get and there is no internal replacement for him.

The Sox can still contend with Fields replacing Crede and one of the young pitchers replacing Buehrle. Depending on what they get back for these 3, they should be able to restructure and still contend - if not this year then certainly next.

Personally, I would like to try to extend Garland. I think he'll only get better,he has been totally healthy, is still young and he knows how to win.

This team still has enough talent that rebuilding is not necessary - especially when you have the depth of pitching that the Sox have now.

by White Sox Randy on May 3, 2007 12:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

We're not the only ones hurting at the plate.

Anyone take a look at St. Louis's stats so far this season? 84 total runs scored, 3.23 R/G. That's down a run and a half from last year, when they scored 4.85 R/G. This is a team with Pujols, he of the lifetime .330 avg and 126 RBI/year for his career; Rolen, who sports a .284 lifetime average and can generate 100 RBIs a year when he's not injured; and Jim Edmonds, who has a .288 lifetime average and (again, when he's not injured) can drive in 90-100 runs a year. Anyone willing to bet me that Pujols will still be hitting .280 with a OBP of .360 when the season ends?

It's April. Players and teams sometimes get out of the gate slow. Spankees aren't winning much either (though they're still hitting), but I seriously doubt they'll end the season in last place in the AL East.

by Happy Felsch on May 3, 2007 4:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Stoney on the radio

Steve Stone was on with Murph on The Score around noon and said pretty much what those of us who aren't panicking (yet) are saying.

It's early. They will hit. The pitching is good.

He also pointed out the reality that Cleveland is hot and Detroit isn't too shabby either. It's time to start climbing out of the hole before we drift back too much farther.

During the "update" they played a quote from Paulie regarding the cold bats...he couldn't have sounded more depressed.

Let's hope they can man up and pull out of this funk.

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on May 3, 2007 4:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Speaking of STL

Since certain folks are always talking trade (Preston Wilson!!!), what is the opinion of folks out there about Chris Duncan? He's batting .315, has 28 career homers in only 123 games, is stuck behing Pujols at 1B and has been platooning in LF with So Taguchi (but not for long the way he's hitting). With Carpenter on the DL for the Cards, you know they're looking for pitching help, and we need a guy who can play LF. Anyone think that could be pulled off?

by Happy Felsch on May 3, 2007 5:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Duncan's the pitching coach's son

and playing pretty well for a slim offense. I doubt he's going anywhere.

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Cardinals have already converted Duncan to LF.

They won't be trading a young, cheap, and very productive outfielder just because he's not a great defender in LF.

by SSH2005 on May 3, 2007 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just saw that Oakland

acquired Jack Cust. So Oakland, the only team currently scoring fewer runs per game than the White Sox, has, in the last week, made two trades to help patch their broken outfield situation, and added a high OBP minor league journeyman just hours after their DH went down for 4-6 weeks.

Good thing we don't have any problems with our DH or outfield.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on May 3, 2007 5:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

also

While our woeful team batting average has stayed essentially the same since Thome went down, the team OBP has dropped at least 15 points. .309 and falling

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on May 3, 2007 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That reminds me...

...what a week for Ryan Langerhans. In the midst of a terrible slump he goes from the Braves to the A's and 72 hours and 2 hitless games later he's back in the NL East, but this time with the Nationals. Ouch.

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 3, 2007 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, it's between 7 AM and 10 PM

Aren't you verboten from posting, Counselor Grinder?

;)

by winningugly on May 3, 2007 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's Sir to you.

No.

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 3, 2007 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't see this happening

but just throwing it out there:

Bernie Williams is a free agent (as is Holldandsworth and Michael Tucker--don't laugh, they both have career OPS. of over .700, which doesn't look too bad right now). He's true blue Yankee, even though they gave him a raw deal this past offseason, but he would be a pretty nice addition. Even at 38.

No chance though. Just wishful thinking...career .850 OPS (still .768 last year), .290 hitter...

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nevermind,

feel free to laugh.

by southsider80 on May 3, 2007 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

would he be any better than mack?

by The Wizard on May 3, 2007 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What pisses me off is that Beane turned trash...

into Chris Snelling, a DH/OF, just what we need. What's even worse is that there's a free agent (Eduardo Perez) out there who could DH for us but Kenny agreed with Ozzie and added Luis Terrero to our roster instead. I know that Ozzie makes dee focking lineup, but does he also make dee roster too? Grow a sack, Kenny.

by SSH2005 on May 3, 2007 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Proof that the biggest idiots can see

the obvious:

Current SI had a "Chutes and Ladders" game (if you have kids you'll know what I'm talking about -if not, well, just play along for now) where they are projecting players whose performance will go up the ladder or down the chute in May. Here's their take on Erstad/Usted:

"Long in decline, Erstad's value is further diminished by his manager's insistence on batting him at the top of the order, where his .313 OBP has limited his RBI chances for the mashers (?! - my emphasis) behind him."

Looks like they are using the SSS pipelne as their feed to the Sox these days. Getting any licensing/royalty payments, Cheat?

by winningugly on May 3, 2007 5:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Did you see the Baseball Preview issue?

This site is listed first in a box of fan sites on the Sox page.

by defensive indifference on May 4, 2007 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

walker quote

Relax, Walker is confident the hitting will improve:

"And you know what? This might be ugly for a while. Even if we fight, it might be ugly. But when we come out of it, we'll be a better team for it."

Chief Walker is right, why fight it? No need to bother...

by The Wizard on May 3, 2007 6:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

<end sarcasm>

man, this is frustrating

if the slump wasn't enough, you have walker living in neverland, damn...

by The Wizard on May 3, 2007 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those comments translated

mean, "We're going to look very bad these next few days in Anaheim and Minnesota. Just warning everyone right now."

by TheKMan1 on May 4, 2007 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and what's with all those creepy ads?

tell our legislators at springfield to blah, blah, blah, blah

go jump in the lake...

by The Wizard on May 3, 2007 6:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

that video was hilarious

from james/jeeves blog: for the video scroll down

by The Wizard on May 3, 2007 7:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Sox don't turn prospects into players

Let's face it, the Sox don't have the money to buy a top level team (Boston and Yankees) and not that that always works (Cubs, Cubs, and Cubs). They also are not the Marlins, where its is the no money development of young players. The Sox are in between and need to be able to regularly add in good young players into the mix with their veterans. As far as position players go who is the last person to successfully fit that scenario? Joe Crede? (to a lesser extent Juan Uribe and Aaron Rowand, neither who are more than, on balance, league average). So instead of someone like BA making the successful transition to being an everyday player we end up with low ceiling vets (Pods and Mack and Ozuna)and, good vets nearing the end of their careers. I don't know why the Sox don't do a good job, like the Twinkies for instance, in successfully bringing their young players into the major league mix, but as long as the Sox are unable to slot in BA and others successfully into the major league line up we'll continue to see a "strategy" of, for example, a low buck/low ceiling cadre of left fielders.

Canada's finest

by MarkD on May 3, 2007 7:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

did that post change today?

it seemed to be more pissed off the first time i read it. anyway...

"Who's to blame? Everybody," Guillen said. "I blame Walk (hitting coach Greg Walker). I blame myself. I blame the lineup."

I blame Ozzie, mostly. Ozzie and Kenny.

there may be firesale this year, but its about 2 months off, no sense even thinking about one right now. sure im a day late on the conversation, but i wanted to get those 2 cents in.

by Gus on May 3, 2007 10:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I guess I have missed something...

Don't forget that we are only 25 games into the season and some of you guys are calling for a firesale. Konerko is off to a slow start, but I tend to agree with Tim Kurkjian when he says that Pualy isn't a .200 hitter. Crede will begin producing more than he has this year. Thome is hurt and when he comes back he will help the offense infintely. Even though Pods isn't the greatest, he certainly beats the hell out of Ozuna, Mackowiak, and Sweeney (as of now). I know we have struggled hitting doubles or stringing hits together, but it will come. Focus on what we have done which is remain at 500 without getting any hitting. Look at how well our pitching has been to keep us in contention at this point. Our bullpen has been very good, highlighted by Aardsma. Our starting pitching has been great since the beginning of the season and certainly Buerhle is pitching for a new contract with his efficiency.

If that doesn't do it for you, this will. John Danks is going to be a stud. End of Story.

Remember, we have 137 games left to play. Just gotta get healthy.

by wildsb4 on May 3, 2007 11:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Better get HOT soon...

Unless the tribe (particularly their bullpen) implodes, they will be hard to pass in the standings. Right now, they are kicking some ass. The Chisox need to get their Bull$hit, not the excuses, together soon.

by thekever on May 4, 2007 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep. They're a whole TWO losses better!!!!

Where's the damn panic button?

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 4, 2007 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Two losses?

Who is only two losses better?

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 4, 2007 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My bad, I apologize

to the OP and you. I was looking at Detroit, not the Indians.
Mea culpa. (Latin for what was he thinking?)

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 4, 2007 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ahem

Can't say I didn't see this one coming. I bitched and moaned about the piss-poor outfield decisions all offseason, and now the Sox are reaping what they sowed.

Meanwhile, Ross Gload is putting up a .350OBP and an OPS over .800. This guy easily, at no cost, have been our everyday left fielder, instead we are paying Podsednik millions to sit on the bench, and suck when he is healthy enough to play.

I don't understand what management is doing, when the whole league is using sabermetrics to dump players like Erstad and Pods, and we seem to be hoarding them.

It's frustrating to the extreme, especially after KW seemed to have learned on the job and realized that he couldn't continue to have his head in the sand if he wanted to beat guys like Beane.

As others have said, without major changes, and frankly I don't see how we are going to replace 2/3 of the outfield at this point in the season, this team is headed for a max of 85 wins, if everything goes perfect.

I'm seeing more like 80 at this point. Yea, back to mediocrity.

by madvillian on May 4, 2007 9:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

now on B-R

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2007_orgbat.shtml

Minor League stats

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on May 4, 2007 10:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow...

If B-ref can start keeping a compendium of minor-league numbers (and go back and pick up old numbers from previous seasons), it might well become the only stats website anyone will ever need.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

In other news...

check out Birmingham's pitching -

Right now, the Barons have a staff ERA of 2.64.

Between Gonzalez, Russell, Egbert, Haeger, Floyd, and Phillips, I've got to think that there are at least one or two good major-league-caliber starters in the Sox's future. And that's not even looking at interesting relief prospects like Day, Wasserman, and Lujan.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 10:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

In fairness...

You know I'm the 1st to bitch about our piss-poor writers and beat guys in this town, but Couch actually nails the problems today:

"The Sox, on the other hand, were a World Series-ready team that needed a little help. But they re-signed Scott Podsednik when it was time to let him go. He came without the new-market price tag, and they also tried to rebuild on the fly with prospects.

It's not likely to work in the short term, or long. When they dumped Freddy Garcia, a good idea, they didn't get enough back. Garcia was a frontline pitcher, and the Cubs had driven the market for them into the atmosphere.

If Ted Lilly is worth $40 million, and Gil Meche even more, then Garcia could have returned more than one good prospect and one mid-level one.

Williams was trying to bring in young players for the future, fit a few in now. But they're not ready, so the team got old.

The Sox are going to hit better. When that happens, they won't look so lethargic. But Darin Erstad is past his time. And he, Dye and Jim Thome are injuries waiting to happen, as their careers suggest. Meanwhile, Jose Contreras got old last year.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/370874,CST-SPT-greg04.article

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 4, 2007 10:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Well...

Meche and Lilly aren't worth that much; I don't care how well they pitched in April. And never mind that they were signed to multi-year contracts, while Garcia was only under contract for one more year, and was throwing meatballs for most of the season last year.

And, lest anyone forget, Garcia wasn't even ready to start the season, and hasn't pitched that well now that he is ready. He's basically exactly the same as Jose Contreras, whom Couch suggests is done.

I agree that the team is doing a piss-poor job slotting in young players, especially as position players. They need to get something out of Sweeney, Fields, and eventually Cunningham. Perhaps Jerry Owens should have been given the job the Sox were so desperate to give to Scott Podsednik.

And if Ozzie can't or won't help these young players develop, he seriously needs to go. Go with a pat on the back and a thanks for the ring, but go nonetheless. 2005 is over - the Sox can't afford to hang onto aging, mediocre players in a vain attempt to re-capture it.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't listen to the Garcia argument any longer

Sure, he pitched a few excellent games in garbage time last year, but for 2/3 of the season, he was awful. This is a guy sporting a blazing 88 mph fastball and a breaking ball that doesn't break. And he's brought all that to Philly, along with arm problems. He's also in a contract year where, even if his performamce mediocre this season, he'll still be looking for 10-12 per, if not more.

It's maddening to see how sports writers believe that other teams don't have any scouts, that when a club sees the name 'Freddy Garica' they think of 2004. He's not the same guy, and seems to be rapidly declining at a alarming young age. Are Sox personel and fans the only ones to know all this? Of course not, and that's why we got what we got for him.

by southsider80 on May 4, 2007 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sort of agree

The Chicago media and a lot of Sox fans have always been a lot more impressed with Sox starters than anyone else (particularly people like BP). Guessing that Williams could have done better for Garcia is just that -- guessing. We don't know what other offers were out there. The Jennings deal makes you wonder, but Jannings had a better 2006 and was cheaper. If the Sox could have traded Garcia to HOU straight up for Hirsh, maybe that would have been a better deal. The bottom line problem I think was overvaluing Floyd. That's where Williams can really be criticized.

by hitlesswonder on May 4, 2007 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Gio Gonzalez...

develops into a good starter (and I think he will; he was the guy I was really sorry that the Sox traded away), it won't matter what Floyd does or doesn't do. Gonzalez' AA numbers are off the charts right now.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

i just don't get how this could be considered a bad trade. maybe people underrate gio or something but i'm not sure why. the phillies get a league average pitcher for one year - what was the expectation of what we'd get back?

by larry on May 4, 2007 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Magic Man

Rowand, I'm sure. You know, because his loss is what through off all of the chemistry last year...not in the hitting or fielding departments, mind you, but in all of the poor pitchers' performances.

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 4, 2007 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're probably right...

I like Rowand, but I wouldn't trade Gio Gonzalez for him straight-up. The Chicago sports media would have loved that trade, though.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Evaluating Gio

First, I don't think Williams got fleeced in the Garcia trade or anything like that. Whether or not a better deal was out there is sort of unknowable. I think fair criticisms of the deal would be picking Floyd to fill the 5th starter role and whether or not Williams should targeted big league position talent rather than minor leafue pitching. But I would guess the trade is fairly even, really.

All that aside, what do you tink about Gonzalez? I don't get the impression that places/people like BA,BP and Sickels think that highly of him -- maybe a B level prospect. Maybe it's the "small picther" bias. To me, he's a guy without a blazing fastball who was homer-prone last season. I want to see him dominate in Charlotte before projecting him to do anything in majors.

by hitlesswonder on May 4, 2007 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sure that...

Kenny Williams did his due diligence w/r/t what he could get for Garcia. I'm sure he could have gotten a different deal, perhaps one that that a different GM would have preferred over what Williams got, but I don't think he leapt at the first offer he got.

I don't fault the strategy that Williams carried out this winter in terms of stockpiling young arms. Young pitchers are volatile enough that you can't count on any one of them breaking through, but if you get a bunch, chances are you'll get an extremely valuable commodity or two.

What I do fault is things like bringing back Podsednik, trading away Ross Gload without looking for a replacement, and making no effort to develop Brian Anderson.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the way i look at the deal

is that we traded a middle of the rotation guy who had one year left on his contract for a guy who will likely be a middle of the rotation guy for multiple years at a much cheaper price. and we got gavin floyd, too.

i think the criticism that KW should have gotten something that helped the team immediately is a valid one. i personally like the move to get our farm system in better shape but i can understand the other point of view.

by larry on May 4, 2007 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

also note

that freddy is older than both of those pitchers (though, admittedly, not by much over lilly) and has significantly more mileage on his arm. and what arm does lilly use to pitch with?

by larry on May 4, 2007 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

the always durable lefty.

Also, when looking at the problems the Sox are facing right now, does anyone miss Freddy Garcia?

by southsider80 on May 4, 2007 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Contreras

His stuff looks lousy, but his ERA remains OK. If he can walk the tightrope for a few more starts it would be a great time to trade him. Maybe Minaya and the Mets would take him for a middling prospect without the Sox having to throw in money.

I also think trading Jenks, if he continues to perform reasoanbly well, would be a good idea. I think he has 3 or 4 years left till FA, so maybe the DRays would be interested in him in a package deal. He might bring actual talent in return.

by hitlesswonder on May 4, 2007 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think...

trading Jenks for a good position player prospect would be a terrific idea. The Sox have more than enough relievers, and I don't see Jenks as having a great long-term future ahead of him.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What?!?

Couch lost me when he said the Sox have no bullpen. Some points are accurate, others way off base. Mostly, he is full of crap.

Comparing the Sox to the Cubs is a joke. Yes, the Cubs spent a lot of money. Their hitting, fielding, and pitching are all pretty solid. Why haven't they won more games? Because they choke and dont have the stones to win the close ones.

The Sox haven't won because they are all hitting like Brian Anderson, circa 2006. But, in the AL Central, there is very little margin for error if you expect to make the postseason.

by thekever on May 4, 2007 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's why I only posted

the parts he got right: Erstud, Pods, etc.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 4, 2007 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anaheim...

I'm dragging the kids to see the Sox this weekend (80 bucks a seat for 5 rows behind the Sox dugout)...maybe I should tell 'em to bring their Game Boys...could be might dull

by RoyEgan on May 4, 2007 11:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Maybe some of those Anaheim hotties

will help wake up the bats. The ones they use during the baseball game, that is.

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on May 4, 2007 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'm a cheapskate

out in RF today, then left corner tomorrow, then upper deck behind home sunday.

by thatshortkid on May 4, 2007 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anyone else think...

...sometimes America's love affair with its athletes goes too far?

The headline is "Hancock legally drunk at time of accident." He was a hell of a lot more than legally drunk. Not to mention the talking on cell phone and potential influence of weed to boot.

Normally, you'd read about a guy who ran into the back of a tow truck at 68 miles an hour while drunk and on his cell phone, and people would comment on the guy's stupidity--not the tragedy.

Thankfully, the real tragedy was avoided in that the drunk, preoccupied driver didn't kill anybody else when he ran into a stationary vehicle at almost 70 miles an hour.

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 4, 2007 12:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

yes

The only tragedy is that people still choose to drink and drive.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on May 4, 2007 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And this time...

...it was no kid. It was a 29-year old guy who had only days earlier had an extremely close call while driving. Unbelievable.

It takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen.

by Toonderstrook on May 4, 2007 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Utter Stupidity

If a professional athlete wants to tie one on, so be it. They can afford a limo at any time, so getting behind the wheel is just that much more insane.

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on May 4, 2007 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

And while on the subject, I suspect that Tony LaR is struggling with some things about now; like 'example' and 'responsibility'.

He also may be thinking "there but for the grace..."

You'd think from a liability angle alone, they'd ban alcohol in all clubhouses (like in Oakland). But maybe they don't wanna piss off the sponsors?

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 4, 2007 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony LaRussa?

This is the same guy that once shared a clubhouse with Canseco and McGwire, and somehow knew nothing. I don't think LaRussa is someone who thinks that "taking responsibility for my player's actions" is something that's in his job description.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The reference was to his own DUI

in spring training this year.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 4, 2007 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I look forward to Angel's series' now...

because it's hilarious to read the comments about our guys over at Halo's Haven. In fact, their game thread is already up with this wonderful line:

"Think the Pale Hose blows? Check out their version of the truth at the South Side Sox blog."

by defensive indifference on May 4, 2007 12:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

AND:

Did The White Sox Exist Before 2005?
-No
-On Paper
-Not in the Major Leagues
-Back When My Mom Did My Laundry

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Ever hear of the Angel's before...they tried to call themselves the LA Angel's?

by defensive indifference on May 4, 2007 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't even know...

what the above quote means. "Their version of the truth"?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The guy over there...

talks a lot of shit about this site. I don't know why. Their commentors are mad about the 05 ALDS and also about Bobby Jenks getting good after he spent his time over there drinking, fighting, and not pitching well. Whatever.

by defensive indifference on May 4, 2007 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

SSS is as unibiased as a fan blog can be

Maybe it's the pessimism native to so many Sox fans, but I don't think anyone here is delusional about how good the Sox are. Ever. If anything, most are probably too pessimistic.

And the poll questioning the Sox existence before 2005 is...odd. It's not like the LAA are a team replete with historic achievements.

Besiudes, the White Sox have arguably had more impact on baseball than any team other than Yankees -- that's right I'm talking about the Black Sox. I'd like to see LAA come up with a scadal to top that...

by hitlesswonder on May 4, 2007 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The biggest...

pre-2002 Angels story that I can think of is the 1986 playoffs and the tragedy of Donnie Moore. I don't think that's something that Angels fans want to brag about, though.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 4, 2007 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You lose any and all credibility

when you reference your mom doing your laundry. Yes, such a time existed for most of us. But it's not material to reference as an adult.

Grow a pair my friend, a move out of the basement.

by southsider80 on May 4, 2007 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They're just bitter

First they lose the ALCS, then they lose Erstud. It's amazing they're not all crying themselves to sleep in mom's basement.

by Happy Felsch on May 4, 2007 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

a lot of ranch-style homes in anaheim / fullerton

i'd be surprised if mom even had a basement.

by thatshortkid on May 4, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

fine

time for them to move out of mom and dad's shed.

by larry on May 4, 2007 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So is the Angels blog

trying to start a blog rivalry of sorts? From their parent's sheds no less?!?

by southsider80 on May 4, 2007 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, there WAS that scandal

of Gene Autry mounting Champion.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on May 4, 2007 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just wait

the "dark side" of the Rally Monkey (talk about lame) will soon be revealed.

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on May 4, 2007 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

has to be something about "spanking"

the jokes would write themselves.

by thatshortkid on May 4, 2007 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Scary Statistic

I could hardly believe the stat. The White Sox have not scored a non-home-run run for 37 innings! Incredible. Walker may be right in his self-criticism, but now he needs to do something about it. Sure, Greg cannot hit for these guys, but what is a hitting coach for if not to help these guys with their approach at the plate against tough lefties such as Cy CC Sabathia and Johan Cy Santana? There must be something these guys can do. But nothing seems to change in their approach. I hope Walker and the White Sox can fix it soon.

Baseball shoes

by baseballshoes on May 4, 2007 1:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs